Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[texcat]

UNVOTE:
A50, I wish you had explained all this earlier.

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[Almost50]

Btw, here's something I remembered about that game.. check this purl=viewtopic.php?p=8511580#p8511580]post[/url] from post-game discussions. I will quote the part where I was talking to doom in particular:

"

@doom:

I offered you an early out off the Jammy wagon by stating intent to hammer. You should've just backed off. Instead, you response was too scummy to ignore or I would be practically acknowledging being on your team.

"

So it seems that he also was sticking with glue on a townie back in that game, that even I -his partner- couldn't convince him to hop off that wagon. Now we're getting somewhere.

[doomfeathers]

@Taly, do you have any explanation for Almost50's presumed posturing that doesn't assume he's scum, if I may ask? His strategy has gotten him to the top of the wagon list, after all.

Is the scum PT available to reference some examples from? I hate vague meta reads, no offence but I’m happy to listen to you if you can beef it up a bit

Mate, he was lynched on DAY ONE! You can go read the game itself if you like, but the Scum PT wouldn't give you much if anything!

So you’re saying we should lynch doom on your day 1 only meta read?

He's wrong, but not for that reason. I put out a LOT of content over that one day, if I remember correctly. Feel free to go ahead and read it.

Pedit @Almost50: No, I'm saying that it's not my top priority right now. Be patient and I'll get to it; it's on my list along with ISOing Aneninen and investigating the accusations of deceit against Lalendra.

[doomfeathers]

I’m guess what I’m asking for is some insider knowledge on his scum game - eg “he likes to push a player who makes a mistake or buddy’s a widely town read player and he is doing that again here”

For the record, I apologized to poor JammySplodge for wagoning her so hard in her first game. I wouldn't do that again, especially after that response.

Heh. Both my scumreads are on wagons of one vote each, and my scum lean is on the majority wagon that isn't his. Interesting.

Between these two, I feel like in a scum-scum or even scum-town scenario,

Almost50

would be an obvious lynch to go through with. Partially because I have a strong scumread on

TheGoldenParadox

, and that's where his vote has been for half of the dayphase so far.

Huh. That's a fair point. It could be a bus. I don't think I want to vote based on associations D1, though.

Also, I think

Almost50

is baiting himself with the

Doom V Him

dichotomy.

Baiting himself? What do you mean?

Creature (4) - Sando, Almost50, Shadpearl, Lalendra

I guess Almost50's vote here sorta makes me townread him :/

Slight +townpoints for Creature.

We shouldn't take "information" into account when we lynch. ALL lynches give us information.

I tend to agree with that. Let's lynch Almost50.

@doom: Just because I appear online doesn't mean I'm going to post. Posting requires reading, and if I've been posting elsewhere it means I've had to read some stuff posted "elsewhere" too. That and the fact I am logged on as long as my PC is on (which is more or less as long as I'm awake, regardless of whether I'm even doing anything on the PC). I could've turned that off if I wanted to, but I don't.

Noted, thank you.

In fact, here's an idea: Why don't you all try to go find me posts of the past few days, and figure out why I was putting this game on the back burner. Just do it "in secrecy" and DO NOT talk about it when/after you do.

Good reason for being distracted. It doesn't explain the actual content of the posts you have made, though, which is the main reason I'm wagoning you.

[doomfeathers]

@doom: Here's a direct question.. IN YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, do you find this to be anywhere near my scum game? Yes or No.

It was until you got some danger of being lynched. I don't have precedent for your scum behavior when seriously lynched, so I've been reading you normally since then.

And another question, if you would be so kind: Can you go find a Scum game of mine where I wasn't loud enough? ANY game will do, regardless of what type of Scum, who my partners were .. etc. Find one and link us to it. Thank you.

I'm not voting you for lack of loudness, but for lack of helpfulness. There's a difference.

Caught up to 345.

[Creature]

I'm hoping Taly will be sorted by itself.

[Taly]

TheGoldenParadox is at L-2 to my belief.

Also, the majority of the posts last page were either quoting on, replying to, or talking about me. So instead of wasting an hour trying to sort through quotes (because I have to sleep), I'm going to do my best to message without all the formatting and such.

~~~

Jay

377
No. I don't recall saying I wanted to lynch you? I'd like to pressure you, whether it's through a wagon or inquisition. I am uncertain of my read on you, and I don't believe you've done much.

But you know; if you want more people talking about you... post more, and reply to their questions.

~~~

Anenien

I'm sorting this in small quotes to avoid a helluva lot of misreading.

Gun-to-head choice between those two wagons would be Almost. But I didn't like those posts. What if Taly was trying to manipulate us?

1)

Instead of announcing to people about your distrust for my posts and seemingly to generate WIFOM; why don't you ask questions and try to do less associatives based off little stated reasoning and no-certain information?

Isn't it time for me to jump on something else too and develop a scumread on the 397th player in this game?
However, what if both Taly and Almost are scum?

2)

I'm being doubtcasted for asserting my strongest scumread and stating reasons why I believe they're a good lynch.

Regardless of the alignment of someone's flip, I'm going to be FoS'd if I survive to D2. Which, fine. But there's a lot of speculation on associations by this point, when the gamestate probably won't change much without concrete knowledge.

Taly+Almost50?
Almost50+Profii?
Doom+? (Lalendra?)
Paradox needs to post!!!

3)

You literally put most of the people questioned in this dayphase and associated them in a mafia partnership together.

I don't quite understand how you came to these conclusions.

4)

I don't think

TheGoldenParadox

will post, or will have a fruitful post. He's played in several games at the moment and hasn't done anything with this one, especially around the points where he's been wagoned.

I've never seen this type of inactivity come from town.

~~~

Sando

So what info do you see coming from a TGP flip? You've stated you think it's a bus on A50, so presumably you're saying scum!TGP = scum!A50. What other inferences are we looking at from a town or scum flip?

If

Almost50's

alive tomorrow, seeing his play after

TheGoldenParadox's

flip could clear reads and eliminate some speculation. The longer this dayphase lasts it seems, the more messy the playerlist is getting about speculating based on associatives.

TheGoldenParadox's

wagon has been the only post-

Almost50

major wagon.

Almost50's

recent posts have made me slightly question my read and associative on him. I still think he's more likely scum, and possibly aligned with

TheGoldenParadox

, but I'm not as confident anymore.

And honestly, while it's likely that

TheGoldenParadox

is town, and I could be very, very wrong. Here is my thinking:

Almost50

is scummy. But as much as I dislike most of his postings, I can see the perspective of them coming from town. I've seen town do some the tunnels, I've seen town do the "will self-hammer", and while scum could and have done that before AND that it's bad for

Almost50

to do this. I'm not quite content on lynching him now, because I can't do that with

TheGoldenParadox

. Nothing tells me

TheGoldenParadox's

town, and I've seen scum throw suspicion and fade away when they're suspected like he's done.

~~~

profii

385 Yeah, I'm just about done with associative talk. But I'm not too fond of some of Aneninen's - mostly recent - posts off first glance.

~~~

doomfeathers

I'm just letting you know; I read through your posts. Though, I need to wrap up soon because I have college classes tomorrow. If there's anything you want me to address specifically, then tell me.

...Wow. You've thought this through. I'm glad I'm playing with you. I think I'll keep my vote on Almost50, though, simply because I still think there's a chance Paradox is an apathetic townie, whereas I'm pretty sure Almost50 is scum.

Honestly, I'm seeing it more the other way around at this moment, and thanks. XD

Baiting himself? What do you mean?

He's trying to seem so certain of his scumread on you, that he's falling on his own sword to ensure that one of you are lynched or heavily wagoned.

I'm not sure if that's tunnel-minded townplay, or scum motivated.

~~~

When I have time in the next 1-2 days, I'm going to look back at

Almost50's

posts, specifically the ones on the past 2 pages since they have generated more content.

[doomfeathers]

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

How so? I played recently in a game where she was conftown and barely participated so I'm not seeing yet how this is AI for her.

Oh. Nuts.

Wait, WHAT?!

Am I totally wrong or was it a slip which I'd missed before and Doomfeathers has just dug it up?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra

Other things are coming later.

Lalendra knows Texcat's alignment here. I don't know whether it's informative about Texcat as well.

I'm still not seeing what you're saying. What does her knowledge of last game have to do with her knowledge of this one?

Am I totally wrong or was it a slip which I'd missed before and Doomfeathers has just dug it up?

Separate to others discussion on this, your vote was on Doomfist for what I think is his meta read on Texcat?

No meta read. I just dissed her because she was lurking. I don't remember ever having played her.

By the way, if you're going to keep calling me Doomfist, could you tell me who that is? (Not that I mind. It sounds cool.)

I have no idea what Aneninen is doing, but I don't think it's scummy to switch opinions or votes or to follow clues that lead to a position you didn't previously hold. If anything, it's town-indicative. Though I still don't see a basis for his vote on Lalendra.

[doomfeathers]

Paradox has signed up for multiple games while refusing to answer questions or play the game at all. No other lynch is acceptable for me today.

All righty, then. That's significant. If he is scum, though, why won't he respond? What's the most likely explanation for apparently completely abandoning a game?

Doom, can you answer this please, if Texcat hasn't played with you, how can you agree with Anen and say that is likely?

- Kop

I said "likely" because I don't know, not having played with her. It was a diss. I'd retract it now.

Alrighty then..

@KOP: I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this needs to be done

I hereby declare I'm NOT going to reread the thread today. I will be as stubborn as I humanly can.

@profii: If you would be so kind to vote me I will hammer myself. Thank you.

o_0
I'm keeping my vote here. I have no idea what he's doing, but it's definitely not playing toward the town's wincon.

Use Occam's Razor on (I'm an idiot ; Everyone else's an idiot)

Off-topic, but it's been my experience that both are most often true.

Kopherald first obviously.

Ausuka can be town (for now).

doomfeathers likely town.

Taly is just a "Don't lynch" rn.

Oh right, Lalendra is town too.

(1) Hmmm... I wouldn't say obviously, but there are quite a lot of scummier players.
(2) I guess so too.
(3) Why?
(4) Why?
(5) Why?

Good questioning. +townpoints

Almost50

is actively posting in another game

.

For the record, Almost50 implied that the other game is the reason he hasn't been posting in in this one, and requested we not post anything about it (for obvious reasons). It seems a pretty reasonable explanation for the lack of activity to me. It just doesn't explain the activity.

No, I think Taly's right. Lynching based solely on associations, especially of a town flip, is sloppy anytime; doing it Day 2 is even worse.

I'd FOS you if I hadn't once suggested something similar as town.

(at myself)

I'd FoS you if I hadn't posted similar things as that highlighted part. Oh wait, I was scum in that game. But I don't remember which one.

Yeah, well, I wasn't scum when I did it. But in my defense, I was new and trying to scumhunt like Accountant.

Lalendra knows Texcat's alignment here. I don't know whether it's informative about Texcat as well.

It’s day 1

Thanks for informing me. I thought it was a Feraligatr.

For some reason, I find myself disliking you less. I think it's the sleep deprivation.

[Almost50]

Paradox has signed up for multiple games while refusing to answer questions or play the game at all. No other lynch is acceptable for me today.

All righty, then. That's significant. If he is scum, though, why won't he respond? What's the most likely explanation for apparently completely abandoning a game?

Seriously?? Ser-friggin'-iously??

[doomfeathers]

Can someone explain to me why the A-50 lynch is even being considered?

He seemed to be playing as I remembered him playing as scum, including lurking and posting extremely little of value. Then I started a wagon on him. Then he started a wagon on me and has been tunneling me ever since. (That's not the case, but the story.)

We've still got a week. I'm finishing the thread quickly and hitting the hay tonight, but I can ISO him after work tomorrow and assemble a case. Sound good?

However, what if both Taly and Almost are scum?

This is my concern, that Taly is leading us off the A50 train onto TGP to at least get a mislynch out of his partner. I don't like someone looking at their two scummiest reads and being so indignant at the idea of lynching one of them over the other.

He did say something about Paradox being only slightly a better lynch; I once lost a game because I took scum at his word with that statement and hammered a townie instead of his partner. I'm still pretty sure Taly is town, though. Somebody want to check their interactions?

Can someone explain to me why the A-50 lynch is even being considered?

Sando133

This is where mine came from.

Now that you mention it, he did wagon Creature for a while based solely on on his scumread of this post:

Ooh, game on.

VOTE: Almost50, who I played last time I played on this site. Maybe I can analyze him less poorly or something.

I've played with havingfitz at least twice, but even less recently. Creature too, but I don't remember his style much.

TheGoldenParadox, to which paradox does your username refer?

Town?

Pedit @Almost50: Yeah. You don't seem the type to do something like that without a reason. What's your intention in promising to self-hammer? Are you trying to garner sympathy or show you don't care whether you die or something?

[doomfeathers]

OK, let me try again with a fresh mind, and "maybe" I will be able to get my suspicions better phrased this time.

Ooh, game on.

VOTE: Almost50, who I played last time I played on this site.

Maybe I can analyze him less poorly

or something.

I've played with havingfitz at least twice, but even less recently. Creature too, but I don't remember his style much.

TheGoldenParadox, to which paradox does your username refer?

The bolded is alarming to me. Why? Because it suggests doom had to analyze me before and he was poor at it. This is obviously negated by the fact the only game we played together before he was my scum p, so he sure as hell didn't have to analyze me at all.

Analyze you less poorly than someone else, not less poorly than some hypothetical last time I analyzed you.

The last line is an uneeded attachment to the post and tells us nothing. Some may brush it off as pure noise at the start of the game, but with a post that already has some content it is clear doom wasn't at a loss of words as to how to enter the game, so why did he feel the need to attach that to the bottom of his post?

I like paradoxes. Also, I wanted to get conversation going in case it helped.

Wot, no votes? We've got to start some dialogue so we can find scum. Votes start wagons, wagons start discussions, and discussions breed reactions. That's just how things work.

This is another post that doesn't sit right with me. Only two players had posted after doom's 1st post and it was only 29 minutes after that when he posted this.

Again, people may think I'm crazy as the guy is clearly pushing for the game to move on, but I say the game could not have been set in motion with only 3 players having posted, and it's not unseen on MS that some players do not vote in their very first post.

I don't remember ever having seen it before, and it's definitely suboptimal anyway.

About the 2 posts between doom's posts: TGP's post says absolutely nothing, while Jay actually says something.
------------
Nothing until post #11. Taly obviously can't be scum WITH doom here. (Note: I said WITH. They could be both Town, one Town and one Scum, or even both Scum but one is the SK at this point)

What do you mean by that? He hasn't posted anything relevant yet, I suppose, though that's true of several people. Does he tend to post quickly D1 as scum?

1- If you wanted the game to move on you should be happy and content someone voted someone. It is RVS still, so nobody takes the stated reasoning seriously.. but doom does!!
2- doom jumps to defend an accusation on TGP that isn't even there yet. Why did he feel the need to point out TGP hasn't posted anything relevant yet (when he had wanted people to vote before other people posted AT ALL)??

He said he KNEW. People don't KNOW unless they're scum, so I asked for clarification. Like I said, I had the possibility of a meta tell in mind.

it's a paradox, I am voting paradox. I'm hilarious.

...That's not what a paradox is. Or am I missing something you're saying? Paradox's post didn't look that scummy to me; do you know something about his playstyle that I don't?

Further overreaction over practically NOTHING AT ALL. Notice that doom is focused on arguin against a single post on a precise player on page bloody one. he didn't as much as even comment on any other vote.

Some people misuse the word "paradox" because they don't know what one is. I got irritated (hence "your mom is a paradox" later).

Ugh. I hate all four wagons.

Weren't you arguing that wagons are built to produce content and lead to information? How are FOUR wagons not enough that you had to find a fifth target to vote? Doesn't splitting the votes on too many wagons totally go against "building" wagons??

Building wagons is what we do to get out of RVS because it provides content. Once we have scumreads, we vote them instead, and we build wagons from them.

Ugh. I hate all four wagons.

You hate all four wagons, but you don't comment on Anienen (Pigeonman). Please explain.

-Brass

I don't think there's any good reason to wagon him; he hasn't looked particularly scummy that I remember, and his votes were just leftover RVS. I can examine him if you wish.

That was all fine until that last sentence. Are you saying you said all that WITHOUT examining Anen? Or are you saying you're a physician??

I checked his ISO for votes quickly, but I didn't bother to read through it thoroughly, if I remember correctly. I had to go for lunch, I think, so I didn't want to spend time unless I had to at the time. Besides, he didn't look like someone scummy enough to be high on my priority list. I think I explained this somewhere before.

So doom randomly votes fitz, finds some BS reasoning for it, and then discovers HE was the one doing all the skimming he didn't see fitz was on V/LA, and decides to vote me.

I knew he was on V/LA. I believe he still is, in fact. It's consistent with what I've seen of him in the past. If havingfitz is at the top of my scumlist, I'm going to wagon him anyway; I might not get an opportunity otherwise.

In 235 doom is defending Lalendra TWICE (against 2 different voters). I think it's doom/TGP/Lalendra for the Mafia team, which means the whole team is on my wagon.

That is actually a fair point. If someone is being opportunistic, I think it's probably Paradox; he's been lurking, and not in a very townie way from what I've seen, whereas I have townreads on Sando and Shadpearl.

Translation: I'll concede that TGP is scum and I'll say so here for distancing, but I'll keep my vote on A50 in an attempt to save TGL if only for this one day.

In 283 doom is again being too defensive of Lalendra.

I mean, seriously guys. Lynch doom and you will easily see TGP+Lalendra are his buddies.

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

How so? I played recently in a game where she was conftown and barely participated so I'm not seeing yet how this is AI for her.

Oh. Nuts.

Because you immediately got caught as scum or...?

No, because I kinda hate this game right now.

Well, if you are town and want people to believe it, you might want to figure out how to enjoy it more. You look scummy when you don't care, and it does look like a weak scum excuse.

By the way, what is it about the game that you hate?

Can somebody honestly tell me this isn't Scum!doom talking to his scum buddies, and ESPECIALLY SO in the second quote? I mean, he's practically begging TGP not to screw them up.

Now I have yet to spot the SK, but I know at least 4 slots that aren't it (apart from the 3 Mafia) so I'd say I have 6-8 suspects for that.

I'm ready to be lynched.

...Wow.
I don't even care if this case is on me; I'm reexamining my vote on Almost50 tomorrow. That's hunting.

[Almost50]

He seemed to be playing as I remembered him playing as scum, including lurking and posting extremely little of value.

OK.. so I had 116 posts, second only to Accountant (who was the game IC), and I was lurking? I had 116 posts out of a total of 728 posts in the thread, and that's including the mod's AND post-game post.. and I was lurking??

And "posting extremely little of value" too? I mean, I was the lone scumster starting the end of D1.. in a NEWBIE GAME.. and I WON THE GAME.. by being a lurker and posting "extremely little of value"???

Man, you're PATHETIC!

Paradox has signed up for multiple games while refusing to answer questions or play the game at all. No other lynch is acceptable for me today.

All righty, then. That's significant. If he is scum, though, why won't he respond? What's the most likely explanation for apparently completely abandoning a game?

Seriously?? Ser-friggin'-iously??

Pedit @Almost50: Yeah. You don't seem the type to do something like that without a reason. What's your intention in promising to self-hammer? Are you trying to garner sympathy or show you don't care whether you die or something?

I've requoted my own post to make it easier for you. Now where was I commenting on my self-hammer issue?

I CLEARLY made it obvious I was amazed NOTHING will get you to vote TGP.

[profii]

Mod

can we get some prods?

The point about TGP not posting here but participating elsewhere is a concern but it still feels like policy more than caught scum. Saying that, day 1 is the optimal place for that sort of policy but a prod/replace is even more optimal

[Shadpearl]

2 and a half hours later but I finally made it. *phew* I popped off for the weekend and you guys had all the fun without me x)

I... I gotta apologize because as much as I really, REALLY prefer to always keep the game moving and the votes going, I just can't. x_x

UNVOTE: Almost50

These past few pages (pg12+) have not endeared me to you, Almost50, but sweet goodness you just won't stop digging that hole you seem so intent on. @_@ It seems like you're panicking? But you don't have too many votes at the moment (I think), so I don't really see a reason. You're either a killer looking for brownie points (which actually kinda makes the most sense if you don't have too many votes), or you're a really frustrated townie, haha (which would make more sense if 5 is actually more important than I think it is).

Either way, I'm gonna pull back on my vote for now and - well, not vote.

Sorry guys. >~<

After catching up, then rereading the thread... there just isn't really a wagon or person I want to jump on.

YES,

(the obvious) GoldenParadox's lack of posting is incredibly incriminating and if he gets within a vote I'll probably hop on just to tip the scale (because more action is always better than less), but as it is I can't really blame him for not feeling much motivation for the game? Which seems to be his most incriminating action (along with the Creature/Doom/Almost50 lumping thing but, as I said already, I was kind of thinking along similar lines at the time).

For me personally, having such a long Day 1 is draining -although in the past few pages posts have gotten far more interesting! I'm probably going to be paying closer attention now that people are invested. Yay for tension!

[Ausuka]

Paradox has signed up for multiple games while refusing to answer questions or play the game at all. No other lynch is acceptable for me today.

All righty, then. That's significant. If he is scum, though, why won't he respond? What's the most likely explanation for apparently completely abandoning a game?

Scum wanting to watch A50 or someone get lynched and lurk by it.
Like, I know lurking isn't seen as a scumtell on this site really. But in my experience there are almost ALWAYS scum in the lurkers, multiple. And then people refuse to lynch them because "it won't give enough information" or "we don't have enough evidence."
And it's not like it's impossible to distinguish between lurkers, either. blockcandy didn't post/JUMS recently came in. But at least he's trying. Havingfitz is at least trying to take stances, and he's V/LA over weekends which explains his absence. Paradox just isn't even TRYING at this point. And if he's sick of mafia and has no motivation, why does he sign up for more and more games? He's just scum. If town was unmotivated, they would make an attempt to post some content (such as explaining 139), or they would replace out. These are the only things that make sense to do. Paradox does neither of these things. He continues to refuse to post ANYTHING while STILL signing himself up for more and more games for him to post in.

Paradox is scum this game, period.

[Sando]

I'm used to playing hard and fast. I've never played a game where the day phase lasted more than a week and Day 1 never more than three days at longest.

Either way, I'm gonna pull back on my vote for now and - well, not vote.

Sorry guys. >~<

After catching up, then rereading the thread... there just isn't really a wagon or person I want to jump on.

Yeah...this is why I'm not going to give someone a noob-pass like people have been on Shadpearl...

[Sando]

By the way, if you're going to keep calling me Doomfist, could you tell me who that is? (Not that I mind. It sounds cool.)

He's an Overwatch character, sorry

[Kopherald]

What's the vote count at?

- Kop

[TheGoldenParadox]

@mod, replace me please.

I have no motivation to play this game so I'm not even going to try.

[Lalendra]

By the way,

but I'm consistently scumread as town

Can you give me a link for that?

Look at my sig or literally any of my town games.

[Kopherald]

Even though Paradox is replacing out, I'm still inclined to keep my vote there. If it was for other reasons I would haven taking my vote off, but this stinks of caught scum and he can't answer to it, so instead replace out and allow someone else to do it.

I've seen it a few times where someone is highly scum read by a few, replace out and the replacement has to pick up the slack. I've seen one time, Fitz will back it up, I think there are a few from that game in this game, a scummy slot replaced out and the replacement came in and towned that slot up, it got killed by the SK and that slot flipped scum.

- Kop

[Lalendra]

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

How so? I played recently in a game where she was conftown and barely participated so I'm not seeing yet how this is AI for her.

Oh. Nuts.

Wait, WHAT?!

Am I totally wrong or was it a slip which I'd missed before and Doomfeathers has just dug it up?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra

Other things are coming later.

Lalendra knows Texcat's alignment here. I don't know whether it's informative about Texcat as well.

um

what

I said it was NAI? How on earth does that = me knowing her alignment?

[Lalendra]

So, I must have misinterpreted that post from Lalendra. If it had been meaningful, others would have agreed with me, or, even more likely: others would have pointed it out first.
Use Occam's Razor on (I'm an idiot ; Everyone else's an idiot)

UNVOTE:

I'll read that post from Taly soon. And other things too.

lol ok then

[Lalendra]

Kop head and I both think the push seems to be solely lurking-based, so, maybe the people on that wagon can explain actual other reasons to vote A50, and you could bring both heads around to it.

I'm scum-reading him for his inflexibility on Creature, and the way he refuses to engage/provide information. He's having an emotional reaction to the wagon, which is fine, but I feel like he's either scum or SK because he's doing literally nothing to help town and I can't see him tunneling Creature like that in the face of conflicting evidence as town.