Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Luca Blight]

NSG's felt a bit like a bus to me just because there was no real reasoning or push behind her Pin vote - it was a bit weird. It could make sense if Anen is the rolecop so she wanted to split the voting up without risking herself in the process.

[JaydragonKing]

The only thing I remember about North this game that was relevant is that she convinced Dino that some of my reactions were towny and to vote someone elsa. Why would she, as scum, take the pressure off me and point it towards Pintu instead?

[JaydragonKing]

Actually, after rereading it, after she said that, Dino then started the Anen wagon instead. Consider this a EBWOP

[Luca Blight]

This vote came when Mutant had picked up about four quick votes:

Guys, relax, is just a game and I get it, I'm not going anywhere. I'm having fun nevertheless; if I weren't, I would've replaced out long ago, after my first readlist. But let's keep things going: I may be dead, but I haven't lost the game as this is a team game, so go on and push another wagon. Just to be clear: I don't think this "push a wagon till getting a claim" is the best strategy at all. Also, I'm following my own reads right now and put my vote on A50, as I'm really tired of his vig softclaims that could justify his lack of content and voting for anyone who's getting pushed without explaining himself. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but whatever.
VOTE: Almost50

Given how Pin had been scumreading Mutant for a while at this stage, it seems strange not to jump on the wagon here - surely scum getting another claim out of a townie would be beneficial at this point. Of course, if Mutant and Pin are scum and they both claim VT, both are for the chopping block via vig or lynch over the coming days.

[Luca Blight]

It could also explain why Mutant was so weirded-out after putting Anen to L-1 immediately after Pin's vote - if he was scum with Pin then I would understand such discomfort on his part.

He said he didn't like Pin's sheeping despite doing the same himself, which is something that never sat well with me.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: people commenting on lynching/vigging pintu or others

Anyone up for a last minute pintu wagon?

i still scumread the way anen talked about the whole math/luca interaction but i compared his iso this game to his iso in his last scumgame and i think they feel pretty different.

I might be able to explain this later on, but this wording feels like intentional distancing meant for me to pick up (and rule out NSG/pintu). I can't explain quite yet.

I already stated I'm voting Aneninen because I'm following Dino and I've declared myself unable to read Aneninen. I also liked the wagon's composition until you got in here, and thought exactly the same thing you are saying about me: bussing on a declared doomed scum buddy", are you projecting yourself on me for some towncred if Aneninen flips scum?

I feel like pintu might've quickly recognised Jay's scum strategy of "follow Dino when he's wrong". This heavily implies Aneninen is town by association. pintu was primarily willing to sheep me on Anen.

VOTE: pinturicchio

If pintu is scum then Anen probably is also, but if pintu flips town then Anen could still be scum anyway - not the other way round.

This is pretty bad and is kind of just wrong..

@dino, fine. But tomorrow, no guarantees. I believe that you+A50+pintu is a very probable scumteam here based on rereading and interactions.

This is also bad. pintu scumflip is really making me question my Paradox townread.

I'm not okay with vigging pintu and I will hella oppose that action

First person to suggest not vigging pintu. Still feeling town by VCA.

This is Almost's ego finally reaching critical mass. I knew he wouldn't stay silent for too long, especially after he let Dino build it up to be shot Night one by the mafia instead of him.

Pintu, you also have to realize the Vigilante DOES have a mind of their own too. They may very well shoot someone elsa.

Classic example of Jay openwolfing. I've seen this kind of play in Stack the Deck, buddying up to town PRs when it suits him..

A50, why do you want me vigged just because Pintu suddenly got off my wagon once it gained traction, has it not occurred to you that he might have jumped off because he didn't want to be part of a mislynch? Of course, from your perspective, you'd probably need my flip to confirm that. So, at the very least, my flip would incriminate Pintu fully. But honestly, I don't think we need my flip to see that Pintu is scum.

Btw @Gamma, would you reevaluate your town read on Pintu if I was to flip town?

Possible bussing I guess? Seems like it'd be a weird play. Not sure here.

Fair enough but surely then you'd want to push me to L-1 to see if I'm a PR so that a potential vig shot on me isn't blindly risky?

This tells me already that you aren't a PR by response alone, by the way.

I really think the Vigilante being forced to shoot Pintu even when appearantly some more of us are townreading him is a horrible idea when there are better options as hand.

dear god this is scum in so many ways

We've all gone into quite a lot of detail about what the Vigilante should do, and that's fine... But we really should look at the benefits of leaving Pintu alive to shoot someone elsa night one. I really hope it's not the case, but the Vigilante could only get one shot if he's NKed tonight. I'd prefer if they have a valuable shot then a null-town Vanilla Townie slot.

scum trying to save pintu
he doesn't even have an alternative option in mind
it's just HEY MAYBE VIG SHOULD DO WHAT THEY FEEL IS BEST AMIRITE GUYS

Now let me think what I can do. I fricking want to join this mutant wagon, but I don't b/c I'm not confident in him. A dino or A50 lynch is not going anywhere, even though they're quite obviously scum manipulating town. I have no idea how you guys are this blind to see it but w/e. I don't want to votepark him again because look where that went last time so I'm going to put in a humble request, because I'm sure he's not PR and I'm almost certain he's scum:

@vig: kill dino.

VOTE: mutant because there's like three and a half days left and the other wagons that have any support I'm p sure they're town.
See this is why playing town is so f*cking hard, because not only do you have to find the scum, you have to convince the f*cking other town players that you've found the scum.

a grabbag of waffling, LAMISTing, and counter-control of the vig to shoot me
also
1. why the fuck is he PR hunting me
2. why the fuck is he PR hunting me at a time when i said multiple times i didn't know my own role

Do not vig pintu, it's a bad idea, he's town. Anen is likely town. I'm not getting behind an anen lynch today, and I certainly oppose it.

ogod
paradox townread nullified

Your also still the only one to entertain the idea of shooting someone besides Pintu, Luca. Well, that I can actually take seriously. I want us to suggest an alternative for the vigilante to shoot.

jay is still scum here
wants other people to do his work for him

2: I'm helping the Vigilante have a valid reason so she can shoot whoever she wants and not have to be shit on by you, Dino.

Why the hell do you keep asking the Vigilante to shoot the VTs? Let the Vig take some risks and make smart plays. Don't make us literally make her shoot someone we don't care enough about to Lynch.

hooooo boy

I'm currently thinking:

vig Anen, leave Pin alive, lynch either Mutant or jmo.

suddenly agrees with leaving pintu alive
on the bright side luca is aware of this and was in line with me in townreading pintu's reaction
pintu's whole "GO AHEAD AND VIG ME" was pretty obviously a desperate play and i think luca was just one of the people caught in it

Alternatively, there's another explanation.
Pintu is VT for real and the scum want the Vig remove him. Then the scum can perform a more valuable Nightkill and they're safe from the Vig-shot too.

For your information: later on the same page Mathdino's trying to manipulate the Vig in a way which favours him. I don't think that would make sense from town-him. At this point I seriously consider self-hammering, because at least that would not be two birds with one stone for the scum.

potentially bad but anen is town by interactions i guess?

What if we lynch dino, then if he's town, vig anen, if he's scum, vig mutant or jmo.

paradox is not scum with aneninen

I'm really feeling one of Math/Anen are scum - if Anen flipped green I'd like Math vigged.

fucking lol this is 2 greenflips

the fck lynch this and vig dino please

unless I'm the only one that has been seeing this garbage scum

desperation

Yeah, No. The vigilante is shooting whoever the hell they think is more scummy. Clearly democracy isn't going to work out. If they shoot me, fine. If they shoot Pintu, fine. If they shoot Dino, fine. If they shoot ANYONE, fine.

yet more openwolfing

right so jay is clearly scum
paradox townread is nullified but he's not scum with aneninen
aneninen, luca, and NSG i guess can be townish for now

[Mathdino]

btw i'm also willing to bet that jay is our mafia rolecop

he's actively PR hunting and also taunted us with the A50 "scumflip"

classic jay thing to do as scum, breadcrumbing his actual scum role

[Luca Blight]

Jay is clearly today's lynch - of that there can be no doubt.

[JaydragonKing]

I object.

[Mathdino]

then let's do it

gamma's vote is on loan to me, luca agrees, paradox owes me a vote

that's L-1 by my count let's go

[Mathdino]

i wanna watch jay fakeclaim power role tbh

[mutantdevle]

Okay, so one thing I've learnt in mafia is not to let the dead stay silent. Killing someone because of their reads is a common reason so I always like the read into this possibility.

Here's what I consider to be Creature's reads:

Spoiler: Creature's reads (most recent to least recent)

mutantdevle(3): Aneninen, Gamma, Jay

Looks like a scum counterwagon.

I think mutant is town, but whatever.

I prefer pintu lynch over Anen.

Uh sure, Jay can die.

Let's get spicy:

VOTE: jmo16mla

Checking VC 1.06 and VC 1.07, Pinturicchio is the only I don't townread that was on Gamma.

anyway do you not feel the same way about gamma?

I guess I'm townreading Gamma most because of his activity rn.

so why are A50 and creature both wrong about aneninen?

tbh Aneninen is someone I consider hard-to-read because I could be underestimating him too much.

lean scum

JayDragonKing

(too much fluff, too little content)
Almost50 (too little content but that doesn't match the town-meta I know.)
Gamma (little content but see what I brought up)
Jmo16Mla (see my posts, nothing big but plenty of concerning bits.)

scum

Northsidegal

(explained above.)

If Anen is bus-happy, then most likely the bolded.

Still would rather not lynch Gamma, atleast not today.

VOTE: Aneninen

Still you're gonna have to help me find scum between Jay and Luca.

I am basically left with Almost50, Jaydragon, Luca Blight and Mathdino. These are the four hardest reads.

Though, out of these, I'm more fine townreading Almost50.

I'm decently confident you're town, Gamma is town, jmo16mla is town.

TheGoldenParadox and Pinturicchio I townlean on but still need to do more.

I think Aneninen could very well be the second scum.

NSG is likely scum, but likely getting bussed so no one holds a credibility for pushing her anyway.

Cool! Aneninen's reads are scummy.

We lynch NSG, I don't get vigged and then I see what we can do tomorrow.

TGP was my most meh read.

Deep scum in MD, Jay and Luca.

Maybe scum in Anen and A50.

Scum in NSG.

Rest are town or I didn't notice were playing.

Creature, how do you feel with Emperor Dino basically saying he's putting you and North in gladatorial combat to see who'll get Lynched?

I don't oppose an NSG lynch, but I'm not gladiating NSG lol.

What are the odds, in your opinion, of you beating the current title holder Northsidegal? Do you think you can be the next Champion?

What title?

pinturicchio feels fake.

Sure let's try this:

VOTE: northsidegal

These reads can be condensed into the following (again from most recent to least recent):

Town reads me (and that my wagon was a counter to a scum wagon).
Scum read pintu.
Is okay with Jay being vigged (and lynched?).
Town reads jmo, math & TGP.
Town reads Gamma.
Finds Anen hard to read.
Thinks Jay and NSG could be scum partners with Anen if he is scum.
Thinks there is scum between Jay and Luca.
Thinks Anen could be the second scum.
Scum reads NSG.

So based on that, I'd say Creature's reads were {Pintu, Anen & NSG/Jay). I'm comfortable with that as a lynch pool.


Obviously we don't know if his reads were the reason he was killed, he was fairly widely town read after all. Furthermore, there is also the WIFOM that scum killed him because his reads are terrible despite being known as a player with strong reads to lead us astray. But personally, I'm using this as a point against Anen.

Pedit: I think Creature would approve Jay being today's lynch.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Jay

[mutantdevle]

btw i'm also willing to bet that jay is our mafia rolecop

he's actively PR hunting and also taunted us with the A50 "scumflip"

classic jay thing to do as scum, breadcrumbing his actual scum role

Just pointing out, we don't actually have to hunt the rolecop necessarily. Once we kill either of the last 2 scum they practically lose the role (unless they are so stupid they'd rather role check someone instead of killing). But, in Jay's case, I guess this works as an argument they are scum.

[Mathdino]

Furthermore, there is also the WIFOM that scum killed him because his reads are terrible despite being known as a player with strong reads to lead us astray.

This happens less often than you might think
People don't usually flip around their reads for the dead

Anyway don't forget A50 who's had tons of experience with NSG and Jay

[JaydragonKing]

i wanna watch jay fakeclaim power role tbh

You really aren't going to like what happens when I get to L-2 then.

[mutantdevle]

then let's do it

gamma's vote is on loan to me, luca agrees, paradox owes me a vote

that's L-1 by my count let's go

I theoretically hammer. Creature and PoE say so.

[mutantdevle]

Anyway don't forget A50 who's had tons of experience with NSG and Jay

Patience my dear, I can only be a medium to one player at a time OR reply in real time. I can't multi-medium yet

[Mathdino]

Hmmmm, theory time.

Do we want to direct the vig again?

Since we're in odds, an extra death at night is theoretically pretty bad for town and puts us in LyLo if we're wrong about both our scumreads. On the other hand, if scum fails to catch the vig (which, let's be honest, they'll probably easily find the vig tonight thanks to yesterday's shitshow), we could actually direct yet another vig tomorrow to put us back in odds.

Clearly Jay dies no matter what, but do we have any backup options?

[JaydragonKing]

Saying "I'm dying no matter what" is true, but do realize the reasoning for why I'm going to die, Dino. It's not because I'm scum or because the Vigilante is shooting me.

[Mathdino]

It's because you're actually a power role, right?

[mutantdevle]

Tbh you don't have to go far to see A50's reads.

Spoiler: These 4 posts sum up all you need.

A50 do me a favour and never self-hammer again.

1- I legit wanted to get out of this shot hole ASAP
2- If I didn't self-hammer I would not have had the chance to rub it in the Scum faces. Even if my wagon would have somehow dissipate, those fools would not have lynched Scum still. Most of them are full of it and are poor excuses for the whole Superfamily of Hominoidea (that's the Apes), let alone thinking humans. These are just baboon typists for all I know. Or chimpanzees, maybe.

P-edit: NO! mutant it is, If he wasn't skimming he would have saw the crumb as well, but he's not interested in sorting me or anyone else because he already knows.

@Vig: PLEASE. For the love of God.. SHOOT JAY

I'll even stretch my neck further to state Jay IS the Mafia Role Cop. (I'd bet on that too if it wasn't against the rules)

OK. So Dino wanted a readlist? Here are my final reads:

1. Mathdino (Town)
2. JaydragonKing (Scum)
3. Almost50 (Town, of course)
4. Luca Blight (Shitty Town)
5. northsidegal (Scum)
6. Creature (How is this still in the game?)
7. Pinturicchio (Shitty Town)
8. Aneninen (Town)
9. Gamma Emerald (Town)
10. TheGoldenParadox (80% Shitty Town, 20% Scum)
11. jmo16mla (Town_
12. mutantdevle (80% Scum, 20% Shitty Town)

REALLY wants me dead.
REALLY wants Jay vigged.
Town: Luca, Pintu (lol), Anen, Gamma & TGP.
Scum: Jay, NSG, me.
And I'm not sure what he means about Creature there.


If you trust A50's read of Jay and NSG due to his experience with him then I guess that condemns Jay and puts further suspicion on NSG. I've also noticed a pattern that both Creature and A50 wouldn't mind seeing Jay and NSG die.

[Mathdino]

My read on NSG yesterday was independent of my read on pintu. Tbh I kind of expect everyone to flip town, so I was kinda reading NSG on the presumption that pintu had already been lynched (and flipped town).

In light of the flip (which A50 also didn't expect), I'm not comfortable with her in today's lynchpool for now.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hmmmm, theory time.

Do we want to direct the vig again?

Since we're in odds, an extra death at night is theoretically pretty bad for town and puts us in LyLo if we're wrong about both our scumreads. On the other hand, if scum fails to catch the vig (which, let's be honest, they'll probably easily find the vig tonight thanks to yesterday's shitshow), we could actually direct yet another vig tomorrow to put us back in odds.

Clearly Jay dies no matter what, but do we have any backup options?

This is a bit of reverse engineered logic so bear with me. When I designed my Large Normal to start I had two ideas I sorta rolled into one: the Willbooster idea and the Vig 18p idea. The Vig 18p idea was actually based on this exact setup, but with a few more roles to sorta sweeten the pot I guess. The reason why I picked 18 players as the number was because with vig there should generally be 3 deaths a cycle, thus bringing it eventually to 3p lylo potentially. I took that idea from this setup because I saw the same process in play here just with less overall numbers. My point is vig should not be holstering because I feel the setup is based around them shooting each and every night.

[mutantdevle]

Math, are we running up Jay with full intent to lynch or is it mostly for the claim? If it's just the claim then obviously the vig will be the one to decide whether or not Jay is legit.