Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[Flavor Leaf]

shadpearl's ISO is pure cringe

either hardtown or scum hardfaking newbtown

@Shadpearl:

Do you have any links of you playing forum mafia offsite?

nothing in lalendra's ISO suggests town
but then again nothing in lalendra's entire career suggests town

is anyone here actually capable of gutreading lalendra

I can gut read a decent amount of players in this game.

[JaydragonKing]

@Tracker - don’t claim, obvi, target me tonight. I guarantee you will see me target somewhere.

This confirms me as town, and if I don’t go anywhere, it confirms me as scum. Also, this adds the chance that I can die in the night thus getting rid of the problem all together.

If your so sure your getting killed tonight, then why ask the Tracker to waste their time on you? That just means they should be tracking someone else.

[Flavor Leaf]

Who’s the other doctor again? Is it Almost? I’ll target the doctor. 100% clears me. I’m nearly a scum good as good as conf town now.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Tracker - don’t claim, obvi, target me tonight. I guarantee you will see me target somewhere.

This confirms me as town, and if I don’t go anywhere, it confirms me as scum. Also, this adds the chance that I can die in the night thus getting rid of the problem all together.

If your so sure your getting killed tonight, then why ask the Tracker to waste their time on you? That just means they should be tracking someone else.

I’m not sure I’m going to die tonight.

If I’m not being tracked, there’s no reason really for me to die, except that I am the doctor, but as long as there aren’t all doctors claimed, then they don’t have a major reason to kill me. They can get around my elemental doctor.

However, not gonna lie, I would claim elemental doctor as vanilla, however that is not the case here. But just saying, I would.

[Aneninen]

I'll catch up in a few hours.

[Almost50]

@Tracker - don’t claim, obvi, target me tonight. I guarantee you will see me target somewhere.

This confirms me as town, and if I don’t go anywhere, it confirms me as scum. Also, this adds the chance that I can die in the night thus getting rid of the problem all together.

Except you can target the one you're going to kill, then the Tracker will have to out to expose you, then you claim you protected the target from X and they could have still died of Y or Z. We have 3 ways to kill the target and the Doctor has to choose to protect from just one.

tl;dr: "I'm dead anyway, so let me live for one more night so that can both perform a kill and out the Tracker w/o the other 2 goons being at risk at all.

Nice try though.

[Almost50]

If your so sure your getting killed tonight, then why ask the Tracker to waste their time on you? That just means they should be tracking someone else.

I just explained why

[Almost50]

Who’s the other doctor again? Is it Almost? I’ll target the doctor. 100% clears me. I’m nearly a scum good as good as conf town now.

Even better! "I'll even kill the Doctor while the Tracker is watching and then expose the Tracker and try to get away with it while my partners just watch in amazement."

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh yeah, true.

I mean, I’m town, so...haha.

I think we should just let me by a day or two

[JaydragonKing]

Oh yeah, true.

I mean, I’m town, so...haha.

I think we should just let me by a day or two

I've been told many times your the apitamy of "bold as hell scum", and how very few are like you in that regard. I may be one of those few, but irregardless...

Notice nobody here's unvoting you despite you claiming doctor. That's very telling.

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh yeah, true.

I mean, I’m town, so...haha.

I think we should just let me by a day or two

I've been told many times your the apitamy of "bold as hell scum", and how very few are like you in that regard. I may be one of those few, but irregardless...

Notice nobody here's unvoting you despite you claiming doctor. That's very telling.

Yeah, my strong scum games screw over my town game because every tinfoil theory someone can make about me very well can be true.

I just roll town sometimes.

I did recently win a scum game where in 3p lylo where I got a miller who had been confirmed to have been rolecopped as Miller to be lynched to win the game.

[Flavor Leaf]

like, I am town. Idk what to do to defend myself at this point. Haha.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Almost - what would you do in my position? Just curious. I see that you see me as scum. I just know you’re wrong. So that in mind, me seeing how you are with it, knowing I’m town, what would you have me do?

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh yeah, true.

I mean, I’m town, so...haha.

I think we should just let me by a day or two

I've been told many times your the apitamy of "bold as hell scum", and how very few are like you in that regard. I may be one of those few, but irregardless...

Notice nobody here's unvoting you despite you claiming doctor. That's very telling.

It is very telling. Scum are likely taking advantage of it somewhere.

[Almost50]

1- TGP got to L-1 and didn't bother claiming or even hinting it
2- The ISO is scummier than scummy
3- Boon comes in with a plan to expose the Tracker

WHAT MORE do we want to know this is Scum??

FTR; as soon as this flips scum Jay is automatically clear here. He was the leading vote on TGP and didn't twitch when he got to L-1

Also, ftr (and I'm sorry to say this) Dino doesn't get a free pass. A leeway maybe, but that's it. I'm not sure how to say this, but if Dino is Scum and he gets his way he's going to win anyway. He could have found himself backed to the wall and was forced to bus without pre-arrangements or he could still be the SK. The leeway though is because IF he is Town he can lead the Town to a flawless victory.

@Dino: I sincerely do apologize if you're really Town here. You're just too good to be taken a face value and I'm afraid I won't have the time to sort you as I'm tonight's NK anyway. Good Luck though.

P-edit: Hypothetically speaking; if you were Town you would not have asked to be Tracked to begin with. That is just bad play (for Town). I honestly don't know what I would have said or done if I was in that hypothetical situation, but I certainly would NOT have asked the Tracker to be on me. Maybe do some ISOing and leave us notes on who is scum so we can use your reads after you flip?

[Mathdino]

sando's ISO makes me want to beat my head against a wall but the twisty pretzel logic is town

Wanna actual provide some, you know, logic, for this statement?

The amount of anti-A50 wagon without actually addressing anything strikes me as fairly telling for later in the game.

Sure thing. I assume you mean anti-A50wagon from me rather than a general sentiment, although I'm interested if you're paranoid of anti-A50wagon stuff in general.

Creature is OMGUSy by nature

, He hate to be wagoned as either alignment and could very well SR his voters, I admit. However, his entrance was HORRIBLE. The "Town?" comment on an opening post by doom was silly enough to earn Creature a SR on it's own, even if he had to retract it soon after.

Creature is GOOD as Town

, and would not have commented on that post AT ALL if he was Town here. The bad play/nonesense still points to Scum!Creature, especially since that comment came while he was catching up, thus should have yet seen what I said about him (i.e. no way he OMGUS SR'd me as Town!him would still)

This is very scummy to me, firstly you establish that Creature apparently has 2 metas:

1: Scum!Creature lurks and gets prodded/replaced in his scum games (post 26 that creature just quoted)
2: town!Creature is OMGUS a lot but a very good town player

I would 100% agree with 1, I just finished a game a few weeks ago with him where he was scum and everything said about him applied to a T. I can see the OMGUS argument just from this thread,

but to claim that he's both OMGUS-y AND a good player says that you think the OMGUS from him is not anti-town

.

However, apart from the OMGUS creature has not posted anything "bad" in terms of being town that I've seen, and since you yourself basically don't think OMGUS is anti-town...why do you think he's scum? To get to him being Scum you have to completely ignore the meta that you yourself stated (because he's certainly not lurking and getting prodded), and also have not established any poor town play other than OMGUS, which you think is just "part of his nature".

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Almost50

This is basically a badpost nitpicking the semantics of something A50 is trying to get across. I had to read it like 3 goddamn times to actually grok what it's trying to say, which is basically "A50 is referring to Creature as if A50 already knows Creature is town".

I think scum in your situation just points it out simply instead of launching into a huge lecture that basically writes yourself into a massive tunnel on him.

OMGUS is never antitown if you actually think the scumread on you is scum-motivated.

Is it really OMGUS at that point though? The problem with OMGUS is it muddies the water by overdoing it to everyone who looks your way, making it harder to see said scum-motivated scumreads when they occur.

I don't think OMGUS play is particularly alignment indicative, however if you constantly do it then it risks the rest of town tuning out your legitimate scumreads on people attacking you as boy who cried wolf, which yeah is anti-town in making your scumhunting less effective.

For the moment you're well and truly outside your scum-meta, you're scumhunting, while also OMGUS-ing a lot. I'm putting you town but I'm wary of your reads due to the OMGUS nature (he says voting the person you're in an argument with).

Also my point on A50 is that he apparently agrees with you that OMGUS is not anti-town, yet also attacks you for OMGUS... I don't see any "bad play" from you apart from over-use of OMGUS, so I feel A50 is attacking you for your OMGUS while also saying that OMGUS is not anti-town.

Okay lemme try to sum up what you're doing here:

1. If you OMGUS too much it masks your scumgames, a la RadiantCowbells.
2. OMGUSing is NAI but anti-town.
3. You're town but you OMGUS enough for me not to trust you.
4. [bad points against A50]

The only way I see #3 as scum motivated is if Creature happens to be scumreading your scumbuddies (which is a narrow situation). Occams Razor says you're pants-on-head town.

Regarding A50... do you need a towncase from me?

Like I have a 100% record of reading A50 as mafia or not mafia correctly across multiple games. I have a blind spot for his SK game, but he also doesn't fucking claim doctor if he's a serial killer.

I think A50 thinks he's better scum than he is, and the fact that he brags about that so much makes him easy ML-bait. He's good enough at scum to be successful in a lot of the playerlists he's in, but there's ALWAYS a method to his madness, and he's very easily motivation readable.

I guarantee you though that scum-A50 doesn't get wagoned on D1. He also doesn't open himself up to a town-Creature by trying to wagon him, WHILE KNOWING Creats is an OMGUSy player. Scum-A50 is much more fundamentally survivalistic than town A50 (granted, scum-A50 will make himself look NOT survivalistic, it's just that I can tell the difference ).

tl;dr: The majority of your ISO is a shitty tunnel but despite (and partly because of) that, you're town.
From your (rational) POV, either I'm literally scum with A50, or you should trust my read here. 100% record doesn't come from nothing.

[Mathdino]

And yeah, A50 found the flaw in the standard Boon scumplan. He's better as scum lategame, and doing this essentially forces a tracker claim.

He also admitted to specifically searching for a scumslot to replace into (after I already called him on it, mind you). I think he had an initial plan for rolling scum with me, but is telling the truth in that he changed it when he found that wasn't the case.

[Mathdino]

I actually question the idea that he'd even claim tracker as scum now that I think about it.

Consider that by claiming tracker today, he forces a tracker counterclaim today and gets lynched today.

By claiming doctor (and obviously getting tracked), he mislynches another townie, survives another day, and either:
A. Forces a tracker guilty tomorrow, getting lynched tomorrow
B. Potentially forces a doctor massclaim tomorrow which is far more valuable than a tracker claim
C. Like A50 said, he can just claim to protect the guy he's killing. Or kill someone who's obviously going to get doc'd and claim that he was the doctor that saved them.

[Mathdino]

sando's ISO makes me want to beat my head against a wall but the twisty pretzel logic is town

Wanna actual provide some, you know, logic, for this statement?

The amount of anti-A50 wagon without actually addressing anything strikes me as fairly telling for later in the game.

tbh if experience is anything to go by
i have about a 40% chance of dying tonight
that goes up to like 65% since there are two kills to go around (A50 is in the exact same boat)

a lot of today is based around paradox and i think that flip will spew a lot more people as town than me nitpicking people's ISOs
i'll do a readthrough for townslips but no reads lists
if i'm actually alive tomorrow i'll do the full analysis but i'd rather just lynch scum and get shot
VOTE: Flavor Leaf
let's end it

P.S. if i die, you HAVE to lynch jay before LyLo
absolutely no exceptions
at all

[Mathdino]

i did not mean to quote that post

[Flavor Leaf]

And yeah, A50 found the flaw in the standard Boon scumplan. He's better as scum lategame, and doing this essentially forces a tracker claim.

He also admitted to specifically searching for a scumslot to replace into (after I already called him on it, mind you). I think he had an initial plan for rolling scum with me, but is telling the truth in that he changed it when he found that wasn't the case.

This is actually false.

I’m actually weaker as scum late game.

I’m reverse. I’m a stronger scum player early and get weaker as game start go on, which isn’t why I like to end games early.

I’m a late game town powerhouse.

[Flavor Leaf]

@A50 - no one’s accusing me of being a good town player. I’m good late game as town.

My sig on Boon is the opposite of my Flavor Leaf one.

“yes, I’m Flavor Leaf. Yes, I WOULD do that as town.”

Like, I am town. I just replaced into a slot you guys were going to lynch.

[Flavor Leaf]

After my lynch, lynch one of A50/Dino, no exceptions.

I’d probably lean towards A50.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Flavor Leaf]

Before they call me out as town self voting, I’ve self voted as town 12+ times, I’ve self voted as scum like twice.

[Flavor Leaf]

My death proves the backup doctor too.