Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

Request vote count.

This is gonna be one for the ages

Edit: ok both GL and NSG are harping on this shit
Gonna go metadive Sandos to see if anything can be AI

Vote Count of the Ages

Votee	Voters
verydark (5)	Kmd4390 (22), GuiltyLion (40), Mathdino (41), davesaz (47), northsidegal (54)
popsofctown (2)	BuJaber (30), Gamma Emerald (35)
Agent Sparkles (1)	verydark (6)
Gamma Emerald (1)	popsofctown (49)
GuiltyLion (1)	Sando (73)
Mathdino (1)	Agent Sparkles (16)

Not voting:

Kop, Myloninja13

[northsidegal]

i think i know what math is about to say.

[Mathdino]

Explain?

[GuiltyLion]

If this is how you feel, why not vote Sando?

Second on VD wagon, desperate for Dino approval before voting me...

a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!
b) Why is being "second on VD wagon" scummy?
c) How am I desperate for his approval?

[verydark]

Wow, ya'll are killing me.

I literally just finished a newbie game, and only have 4 games under my belt TOTAL (from 7 years ago). I was just RVSing. Chill out, good grief.

I wanted to play a game a little more fast paced than the newbie ones, I guess I should have emotionally prepared myself.

I phoneposted the RVS comment, and was 3rd to post. Didn't really have anything funny to comment on, except Agent Sparkles is a funny name that I could memorize by the time I got to the reply box.

I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.

[Sando]

@GL: that kind of crazy twisty logic with no apparent point until many wallposts later is just something I expect from having looked at Sandos playstyle.

You're right in this case, I realised I never actually articulated what I was looking at with pops.

I thought in my mind that we have vanilla-town with vanilla-scum and masons-oneshot. So pops saying that only scum/masons care about more than their alignment is actually not true, only masons would, cause they're the only non-vanilla, thus to my mind pops wasn't even scum+mason hunting, he was purely masonhunting. But I asked, and yeah partners would be something that both scum and masons have, I just hadn't considered that since it's not an "ability". I put that as a decent response.

I'd also note that Gamma effectively defended pops from my line of questioning there with 28, so I'm putting his vote on pops as genuine and not OMGUS or scummy.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.

who should we vote instead?

[Mathdino]

If anyone on serious business unvotes before we get this glorious votecount I'm vigging you

[northsidegal]

Explain?

i just expected a "hypocrisy isn't a scumtell", remember you saying that before and it's stuck in my head i guess.

[verydark]

who should we vote instead?

Well if you don't want to kick off the game by lynching town on D-1, I'd suggest literally ANYONE else.

[GuiltyLion]

hypocrisy is more of a towntell if anything

I actually kind of like that Sando tried to throw my own language back at me, not sure that scum would go straight for the snark there, but he still hasn't offered a good scumread or vote so far

[Sando]

My read on Mathdino is changing, but he's got his own thing going on and I'm not going to speak of possibilities there before it's had a chance to play out and we can draw some conclusions.

what does this mean? no offense, but this reads as pretty "empty", like you're not actually saying anything at all.

You're 100% right, it's very deliberately empty. I'm saying that Dino is "doing something" with the VD wagon etc, and I want to see what the outcome is without me interfering. He's at L-2 so I'm obviously not going to put him at L-1, nor am I going to try and derail the wagon before he gets the reaction he's after. I only said it because GL wanted to call into question whether my read on him had changed.

[northsidegal]

You're 100% right, it's very deliberately empty. I'm saying that Dino is "doing something" with the VD wagon etc, and I want to see what the outcome is without me interfering. He's at L-2 so I'm obviously not going to put him at L-1, nor am I going to try and derail the wagon before he gets the reaction he's after. I only said it because GL wanted to call into question whether my read on him had changed.

i've never really understood this "zero sum" view of attention or of focus when it comes to discussing reads, as if bringing something up while someone else has a wagon on them will necessarily be "derailing" it. i mean, do you have a read on math right now or do you not? you're kind of talking like you don't ("and we can draw some conclusions", "i want to see what the outcome is"), but if that's the case i don't see why you wouldn't just come out and say that. (i don't get why you wouldn't just come out and say your read whether you have one or not, but that's a different discussion).

[Sando]

a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!
b) Why is being "second on VD wagon" scummy?
c) How am I desperate for his approval?

a) What are you trying to get out of it gamestate wise?
b) It's not, in isolation, but see above, not voting me, and the desperation for someone else to weigh in on me before you vote...a pattern emerges!
c)

Math do you see what I'm saying about Sando though?

you don't have to trust me at all to engage with the points I have made

He's engaged, gives incredibly weak (ie say nothing about my alignment) reasons for why "that's just Sando", and you magically back off.

Looks like you're trying to get someone to make the first move with you, and when they won't, you back down.

[verydark]

Request vote count.

This is gonna be one for the ages

Edit: ok both GL and NSG are harping on this shit
Gonna go metadive Sandos to see if anything can be AI

This guy is getting on my nerves. Why are you trying to push a lynch so fucking fast? We are on page FOUR.

I think you're being neurotic to distract people. This is where the wagon should go.

VOTE: Mathdino

[davesaz]

I made an explicit townclaim in 47. The townclaim is not the part where I used the wrong player name to vote.

Pedit: This post is almost a whole page stale -- it was in reply to Dino's comment questioning when I'm ever town.

Doubling down on why my post is town... The verydark wagon is accomplishing what an early d1 wagon should accomplish. I'm happy with the gamestate, but I explicitly don't expect this to result in an early lynch.

[Sando]

You're 100% right, it's very deliberately empty. I'm saying that Dino is "doing something" with the VD wagon etc, and I want to see what the outcome is without me interfering. He's at L-2 so I'm obviously not going to put him at L-1, nor am I going to try and derail the wagon before he gets the reaction he's after. I only said it because GL wanted to call into question whether my read on him had changed.

i've never really understood this "zero sum" view of attention or of focus when it comes to discussing reads, as if bringing something up while someone else has a wagon on them will necessarily be "derailing" it. i mean, do you have a read on math right now or do you not? you're kind of talking like you don't ("and we can draw some conclusions", "i want to see what the outcome is"), but if that's the case i don't see why you wouldn't just come out and say that. (i don't get why you wouldn't just come out and say your read whether you have one or not, but that's a different discussion).

Because I'm not going to say "if MD does X I think he's scum, if MD does Y I think he's town" until after he's done it.

Why would I tell him before he's done the actions what I think of them? If he's scum I'm basically coaching him into how to get me to townread him, if he's town and does the townie thing then he loses town-cred for doing that because someone told him what town would do.

Then again MD thinks my logic as ass-backwards so he probs couldn't GAF what I say.

[northsidegal]

ah, i get what you're saying now. it seemed like originally you were implying like you already had a read there.

[Gamma Emerald]

If you identify the four players who have partners, you do instantly win this setup. Obviously identifying the players who cannot win if they are lynched is the cleaner less costly angle of scumhunting. But I'll take what I can get.

I don't see why my case is being characterized as a slip. Nothing about it is a slip. He said that he didn't get to choose anything about his role, and didn't get to choose anything else. If he's VT, he didn't get to choose that he is town, and he didn't get to choose his partners, and his partners is the empty set. It's totally valid to make a statement about an empty set. People are just more likely to comment on nonempty sets. If someone took me out on a date, and I said I didn't get to select a dessert, you would assume my date treated me to a specific dessert, but if I said we didn't have time for dessert you wouldn't complain my previous statement was invalid.

Unless you're all just saying this statement of probability is so obvious that he would preview edit it out which just seems like too scummy to be scum fallacy.

Gamma Emerald's progression from 18 to 25 is terrible. I made no intervening posts to change his read. The only change is that BuJaber joined the wagon making it seem more viable and socially acceptable. BuJaber didn't even post a case that Gamma might have found compelling, he just asked "what is going on here".

18 and 25 are your posts.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Vote: Gamma Emerald

Saying "I have not the liberty of selecting anything about my alignment" instead of saying "I have not the liberty of selecting my alignment" suggests his alignment has two components - a side, and a set of people who share that alignment. A VT would be more likely to naturally construct the latter statement.

Doesn't really rule out a masonslip, but the quality of lynching someone who is mason/scum is significantly better than random lynching, so this is where my vote should go for now.

The more I look at this the more I feel like it's scum blatantly masonhunting hoping for refuge in audacity
VOTE: popsocftown

masonhunting in what way? why would he make that public in the main thread rather than just keep it to himself / share it in the scum pt?

Scum don't have daytalk. As for keeping it to himself I don't think the motive I described allows that.

[northsidegal]

18 and 25 are your posts.

he was referring to 28 and 35.

Scum don't have daytalk. As for keeping it to himself I don't think the motive I described allows that.

eh, i guess i see what you're saying now. i still think scum would be more likely to keep a mason tell to themselves rather than trying to use it to get townread through wifom like that, though.

[verydark]

Lmao, I actually just noticed I'm at L-2.

Well here you go, someone hammer me.

VOTE: verydark

You wanna waste a D-1 lynch on town? It's not me, idiots.

[GuiltyLion]

a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!
b) Why is being "second on VD wagon" scummy?
c) How am I desperate for his approval?

a) What are you trying to get out of it gamestate wise?
b) It's not, in isolation, but see above, not voting me, and the desperation for someone else to weigh in on me before you vote...a pattern emerges!
c)

Math do you see what I'm saying about Sando though?

you don't have to trust me at all to engage with the points I have made

He's engaged, gives incredibly weak (ie say nothing about my alignment) reasons for why "that's just Sando", and you magically back off.

Looks like you're trying to get someone to make the first move with you, and when they won't, you back down.

a) the posts from verydark in 84 and 89, maybe also see if anyone tries to preempt the wagon and WK it. You yourself acknowledged the wagon was doing things in 86, yet you aren't going to give me any credit for that?
b) I didn't ask anyone for approval before voting verydark. And also, frankly, I'm not some wuss scum who is too scared to make a vote on my own, I've been around the block and played tons of scumgames. Also as a math major, even if you were spot on with this point, two data points does not make a pattern. and you should be more careful against using strong language like "desperate" when it's really not substantiated in my posts or my actions, because that kind of bs embellishment is what looks like scum fabricating scumreads.
c) I didn't back off - I don't want to spam up the thread too much and literally maybe like one hour has transpired. Again, you're exaggerating and ascribing "patterns" to single events - that's bad townplay

plus, watch this:
VOTE: Mathdino

you're absolutely right that his "meta" point on you was weak and his "GL most likely to be scum" posts seem more like they're meant to discredit me and my reads rather than something he genuinely feels about my alignment

p-edit: well I was gonna hop off before the self vote but now I'm definitely gonna hop off

[verydark]

p-edit: well I was gonna hop off before the self vote but now I'm definitely gonna hop off

lmaoooooooo

[GuiltyLion]

can you not self-vote and vote Mathdino instead