Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[havingfitz]

Yeah. Technically this is my new main but whatever.

If it's common knowledge who are you an alt of?

[Sando]

Yeah. Technically this is my new main but whatever.

If it's common knowledge who are you an alt of?

Read her signature

[havingfitz]

Yeah. Technically this is my new main but whatever.

If it's common knowledge who are you an alt of?

Read her signature

Duh. And I had already done that earlier in the game.

[havingfitz]

im voting you for being on a number of wagons yesterday and being on a wagon today... its like you just want people to die!

How is any of this AI?

So is Anen equally scummy for you? Same number of D1 wagons AND he's voting someone today

Asuka and A50 have each voted three wagons today alone....what's that doing to your brain?

[Taly]

Creature is engaged and actually posting. Unless he’s suddenly figured out how to replicate his town meta as scum, he’s town here. I will begin to only look at him a lot more closely if he’s still alive around end game.

He's gone about 3 days without posts if I'm not mistaken. What makes you want to wait to figure him out?

Pearl because I didn’t find his comment regarding my predecessor scummy and I recall it being harped on way too much for my liking. I don’t think it’s rare for someone to ask the crowd to leave someone alive even if they’re being heavily scum read or wagoned. It’s helpful to see who avoids taking about said person, who defends said person, etc.

I can empathize and follow his reasoning in 215 for his awkwardness and suspicion he’s drawn early on. The way he claims to do things matches up with 142 and 183. The reads also given in this post seem genuine.

Since I see that you've noted some reads revolving around Shadpearl's interactions D1, has anything changed your reads looking at D2 so far?

Sando because I can follow where the former of 40 is coming from. I played a Newbie with Sando a few months back and to make a long story short, Creature was scum, basically did nothing, and won. “So yeah lack of engagement gets my juices flowing on Creature.” reads very eager to not only be confident that Creature is scum here but to actually lynch him.

I haven’t read a lot of the long-winded posts from Sando but I’ll be happy to re-read any you feel are important. At a glance, his posting reminds me of that Newbie.

I'd like to point you to

Page 32-34

, what did you think about

profii

questioning my reads and then shifting his focus to

Ausuka

?

Also, I'm not going to get into another scrap with

Sando

right now, but I don't quite know why people are writing us off as TvT, I don't see a lot of explanation for that. Does reading

Sando

and I more in depth throughout this dayphase help cultivate stronger reads on us?

Texcat

, do you think

Jimmy-profii

could be connected? Is your read on them independent of the other?

I started with an independent scum read on Jimmy, although he's got so little content that it was not a strong read.

But after Profii's 895, they certainly could be connected. Profii looks a lot like scum trying desperately to find a wagon. He is throwing shade on you and Ausuka. He voted me because I was on a few wagons on D1?? And yet he thinks Jimmy is likely to flip scum. If he is scum in search of a wagon, then surely he could have voted Jimmy. There's a wagon already made for him.

Jimmy doesn't have enough content to read properly. But his vote on me for my RVS votes was atrocious. If Jimmy flips scum, Profii is scum. If Jimmy flips town, I'm not so sure about Profii. If Profii flips scum, Jimmy is scum. If Profii flips town, I think it's NAI for Jimmy.

I'm willing to vote for either one of them at this point. Unfortunately, I can't vote both of them.

At this point, they're both just about equally scum in my eyes.

Whereas

Jimmy

is doing next to nothing about anything to contribute to the game or to question his wagon,

profii

has actively made responses to my pressure toward him that I don't find coming from town.

Here's an in-depth view on profii here:

Spoiler: ISO Between Profii and My Replies To Him

773 - Questions why I think I'm mislynch bait, and asks me if I thought Lalendra was NKed because of doc-vibes.

///

Automatically wants to ISO me when I think I'm a mislynch target.
774 - He states that he doesn't see any crumb from Lalendra and sort of downplays her scumhunting her. He says that she wasn't good to be a mislynch bait, but she wasn't a good threat to kill off either?

*Note*

Weird thing here is,

profii's

looking for reasons on why he thinks

Lalendra

wouldn't have been a good NK-target, versus actually looking for plausible reasons or people who could have killed her off.

789 - I told him I didn't believe

Lalendra

crumbed anything, and looking at her ISO, I still don't think so..... He still hasn't ISOed me.
791 -

profii

questions my reads on

Almost50

and the doomfeathers slot, AFTER I explained why I'm not going to doubtcast

Almost50's

claim. Says me making a case against myself is LAMIST (what does this mean)? In either case, he stated that this seems convenient from me... and how? Why is he not paying attention to me recent post on

Almost50's

claim?
800 - Wants an explanation from

Ausuka

on my reads toward

Almost50

and says that I'm not cleared... But why ask

Ausuka

and not me?

*Note*

Still no ISO on me though...

813 - I elaborated in depth on why it's anti-town in my view to doubtcast

Almost50's

claim, and why I'm not going to pursue Mathdino because of his replace out.
838 - Asks

Ausuka

for my motivations in my reads... even though I just listed them. Turns the argument back onto

Ausuka

, and says that SHE'S the one, in fact, fence-sitting.
846 - Despite

Ausuka

fully elaborating on what she views on my read,

profii

says that this is when the game stops working, because in his view, she's

"not going to speculate that

"... Speculate what? The validity of my reads? Why?
860 - He continues to say that everybody lies, as a response to

Ausuka's

point on me... but then specifies lying is specific to scum?
867 - I prod him, and call him out while giving reasons on why I think his approach is not good, and prompt him with questions about his point.
895 - Literally does not reply to my case-post at all, still mentions the fact that

Ausuka

sees the rationale behind my posts, and THEN places a vote on

Texcat

because.... YAY?
900 - I point him to my thought progression... again.
901 - He makes a weak associative with

Ausuka

and I despite saying I'm TvTing with

Sando

, and says that trust is specific to scum-scum, notes that

Ausuka

and I are scumreading him because... that's bad?

*Note* Most odd thing here is that he says I'm making assumptions about him... even though I've told him a lot about my viewpoint so far, and I don't see a consistency with his read development in this dayphase.

902 - Continues to paint

Texcat

as scum without real stated reasoning?
903 - I jump all over that post in here.[/bb]

This does not come from town, imo. His play so far feels dodgy, and he seems like he's trying to do a lot, by doing so little.

They may or may not be connected, but I'm guessing that your reason for voting

Jimmy

is because he's scum to you despite

profii's

flip? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I may considering hopping onto the

Jimmy

wagon, but my biggest pullback from that is;

Jimmy

, like

TheGoldenParadox

, has had very bad posts and did not do anything toward their wagon. While it's arguable

Jimmy

has more scum-motivation behind them, I want to focus or push people who have been actively posting things that ring off scum alarms and not repeat a possible mistake in D1.

That's my thought process at the moment. My scumread on

profii

is becoming is mostly independent, similar yours is on

Jimmy

.

In either case, I'm going to ISO them both and see the interactions between each other.

[Ausuka]

I think Ausuka is town as well - i dont see why it's a problem to be more interested in peoples interpretations of other players motivations, rather than asking people directly - how can we trust anyones word pre-conf-towning - if they are just lying, they will just continue, i'm far more interested in what someone thinks someone else might be up to, it's harder to come up with a rationale for someone else thats made up than make up your own story. But anyway, I get that Ausuka is taking Taly's word for recent posts... so moving on...

But like I'm not just "taking someone's word for it" I'm just saying that we're not going to go anywhere by looking at something and saying "I think we should look very closely at this minor thing because reasons." You need a reason why you think it's a lie. All Taly did was change his read on A50 after the Paradox flip. What I've been saying is you looking at that and saying "This thing is probably a lie" (even though there's no reason to believe that) doesn't seem real.

[Ausuka]

I do have a townread on Taly but it's not based on something really strong. He just seems town to me.

[Aneninen]

Hate me but V/LA
I should have done it earlier.

[havingfitz]

Hate me but V/LA
I should have done it earlier.

Till when?

[Aneninen]

Erm. Friday or so.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Well could you talk about why you did?

416 is basically that Shad claims to come from a "hard and fast" background, but is extremely tentative here. I don't find that believable.

772 is basically saying that Shad is faking newbishness. There's newbishness in terms of using incorrect scumreads etc, and there's newbishness in the "hay guyz I'm new!!". Shad feels like they're faking the latter, they're logic may be wonky, but it strikes me as a sudden spurt of competency that isn't naturally learned.

Yeah I'm still not following you on point A. I don't see how it's unbelievable for anyone coming from a blitz like environment to be tentative here. I imagine it's a culture shock. Having to adjust your approach and play style in ongoing game can be really daunting.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

What makes you think scum would blatantly contradict themselves like that? Why didn’t you ask him to clarify what he meant?

I don't like contradictions.
For early game non rvs pressure I'm fine using it for a vote.
I didn't ask because I didn't care for a reason.

Why didn't you care?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I wouldn't really say figure out Taly, more so begin to wonder. Town Creature is essentially an IC and is usually a strong candidate to be night killed before endgame.

I don't think scum are likely to start the day off being a bit considering and smug about being right on TGP's alignment. I don't see how it did Pearl any good due to his standing with the town and the attention it potentially received. I touched on his paranoia of my slot and Almost's a bit with Sando.

I find it weird. I don't know how long the enforced break was but I don't think it matters at all. Not wanting to risk anymore PRs doesn't equate to lock town reading someone and I don't see why profii would have an issue with that reasoning as town other than sincerity. This coupled with the fact that he was town reading Almost50 during Day 1 gives me a lot of pause and makes me scum read him even more.

[Sando]

Well could you talk about why you did?

416 is basically that Shad claims to come from a "hard and fast" background, but is extremely tentative here. I don't find that believable.

772 is basically saying that Shad is faking newbishness. There's newbishness in terms of using incorrect scumreads etc, and there's newbishness in the "hay guyz I'm new!!". Shad feels like they're faking the latter, they're logic may be wonky, but it strikes me as a sudden spurt of competency that isn't naturally learned.

Yeah I'm still not following you on point A. I don't see how it's unbelievable for anyone coming from a blitz like environment to be tentative here. I imagine it's a culture shock. Having to adjust your approach and play style in ongoing game can be really daunting.

Ok, I disagree but whatevs. What about B, the faking of newbishness?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

On B? Agree to disagree I guess.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Going to give Jimmy anorher 24 hours.

[Shadpearl]

Going in no particular order...

♦ Idk what to do with Havingfits. He keeps popping off which puts him in the awkward position of having to catch up -and his posts really do feel like he's catching up when he makes them, so I don't feel as if this is scum-motivated.

♦ Creature seems to work in bursts. I understand it, but idk if that's normal for him specifically. People say it's scummy but so far it seems like what little he

has

posted was helpful? That beings said - is there any chance Creature could be the SK? If he really likes playing town and the SK killed a mafia member last night.... couldn't he be playing for the town by his own rules? Just a thought. >_>

♦ Aneninen - Do you have a readlist? Do you mind sharing it? Or, if not, could you specifically share your thoughts on Ausuka, Profii, and Havingfits? Ah! And responding to post#848 I didn't actually know if this website allowed people to post pictures in game threads. I was "following your lead" in the sense that I didn't know the rule but remembered you posting pigeon pictures a while ago without there seeming to be any trouble (although you put them in "spoilers" so I did the same) thereby I assumed pictures were alright here. That's it.

♦ Sando -

...

Now, what IS your read on Annen?

Mine? Soft-town lean. Anen however is the main person who D1 who went "whoa we can't lynch an A50 doc claim" then blithely lynched another doc claim. I haven't seen any other interactions that struck me as scummy though, atm I'm soft town but I find him a very hard read. I'd put money on him not being SK though. I don't think an SK wants kill reasonings brought up late-game.
...

To be fair, Flavor Leaf didn't really do himself any favors and that kinda snowballed quickly. Just playing devil's advocate here. Wouldn't basically everyone on that wagon also be guilty of not wanting to kill off Almost50's doc claim and then also ignoring Flavor's?

Also, in the same post from you Sando:

...
I'm going back to Shad. Fake-newbie, OTT daybreak,

only responds/interacts when voted with basically no unforced scumhunting.

vShadpearl/v

...I don't know what OTT means. Sorry. >~< But also, I think my posts are more consistent in that they happen only during the week. I make my money on the weekends, sometimes working 14 hour days back to back to back (including Friday) so it is easier for me to be consistently active and respond Monday-Thursday. When I do my weekend recap on Monday it is easiest to pick out and reply to everything I missed in bulk, hence why Mondays tend to be longer posts and Tues-Wed-Thurs smaller. I don't think any of this is particularly helpful game-wise, but I hope it helps you to understand my (apparently strange) slinky-style posting, lol.

Quick Note:

...
It's been over 3 days now for Creature and Shad- ...

The weekend counts as 1 day! That is definitely my saving grace, lol. I am sorry I didn't have the energy to post on Friday though. I was beat. Also, this post was finished early this morning and rewritten just now. See bottom for an explanation.

***

♦ Post #828 & Post #829 - Well, yeah, Ausuka. You

would

dislike it. It was a vote against

you

, lol.

♦ Texcat -

...
vJimmy/v
Hasn't done crap.
...

As a fellow pot, I welcome you to the fold! x)

♦

Hey guys
...

Hello! :> *small wave*

♦ The Doom slot is so blessed!
First Doom was active, then Mathdino, now er, LUV? Super lucky! Do people always get so excited to play Town here?

♦ Finally, This:

...
Yeah I'm still not following you on point A. I don't see how it's unbelievable for anyone coming from a blitz like environment to be tentative here.

I imagine it's a culture shock. Having to adjust your approach and play style in ongoing game can be really daunting.

...
Well, damn.
LUV, you are a clearly a genius and I will defer to your reads from here on out. Less than a day in and you already realized exactly how I'm playing. xD Not that I was really trying to hide it, but still...

Alright! Now that those things are all settled...

Shad's Thoughts (If anyone cares)

I kinda want to pull back and look at the bigger picture for a moment. I know everyone here knows how the game works (yes, far better than I) but, follow me for just a moment: We have 13 players. After our lynch (and assuming we all suck) Day 3 we will be at 10. (

1 lynch

/

1 scum kill

/

1 serial kill

)
Day 4 - 7
Day 5 - 4 / GG. Thanks for playing.

If we are wrong today, we then have to get the next TWO days right in a row because there are still 2 scum at large AND even then we still lose people with the SK running amok. Our odds aren't really awesome atm. That being said, I sure as hell don't want to have a day with a No Lynch. That would be basically giving them a free pass. So,

what do we do about this?

I really think we should put a bit more effort into finding the Serial Killer, rather than the 2 remaining scum.

*pause for horrified gasps*

I'm not saying we should stop looking for the scum!

I'm just saying - our odds suck while we're losing 3 people a day. We can't hold that pace for long. I think trying to lower that number (which can be done fastest by finding the Serial Killer) would be a good thing. So far, everyone seems so focused on finding teams and associations that they are losing sight of the fact that someone is working alone and that someone is debatably easier to take down than 2 people we have to individually lynch (Costing us 2 precious days and several people along the way).

Tbh, I don't really know how one goes about hunting down a Serial Killer though, so if I just brought up something ridiculous disregard this, I guess. 6_6'

***My computer crashed this morning, losing all of my initial post. If this seems a bit rushed/condensed that's why. If I missed something noteworthy, please let me know. I tried to remember roughly what I had written before but I might have missed something. Sorry!***

[Shadpearl]

Oh, great! The ♦'s worked!

[Sando]

Just playing devil's advocate here. Wouldn't basically everyone on that wagon also be guilty of not wanting to kill off Almost50's doc claim and then also ignoring Flavor's?

Anen was much more vociferous about their objection to a doc-claim lynch than others. Yes everyone carries guilt over the mislynch of a doc claim, but some carry more than others. There was obviously town on the wagon, given sheer weight of numbers, so at least some of them were genuine. It's still worth looking at specific things to try to find disingenuous reasons for being there.

OTT = Over The Top

[Almost50]

The game has come to a stagnation.. again. I have not much more to add tbh, so I'll just drop my vote on Jimmy putting him @L-2 and leave it to you all to decide when the day should end.

VOTE: Jimmy

[Aneninen]

A quick thought.
I found it weird that Havingfits had asked about my V/LA.
He'd hardly done anything. Why was it that important? I'm not an important player here anyway.

[Kopherald]

I'm still happy with my vote on Fitz.

I'd love to provide you with a stronger case, I will ISO him again, but from what I remember seeing, there isn't much.

- Kop

[havingfitz]

A quick thought.
I found it weird that Havingfits had asked about my V/LA.
He'd hardly done anything. Why was it that important? I'm not an important player here anyway.

Did you have a question for me?

You appear to be rambling on with yourself.

[havingfitz]

I'm still happy with my vote on Fitz.

Because I'm not playing like I did in a game where I was an sk?

If you're going to rely on meta for your gut reads on me you could at least look at gsmes we've played where I was scum (Open 674 & mini 1653). I don't think those games will apply to this one but they'd probably be better than an sk game. You could also peruse the several town games we've been in.

[havingfitz]

What makes you think scum would blatantly contradict themselves like that? Why didn’t you ask him to clarify what he meant?

I don't like contradictions.
For early game non rvs pressure I'm fine using it for a vote.
I didn't ask because I didn't care for a reason.

Why didn't you care?

It was a page 3 vote barely out of rvs. I saw something I didn't like and that was good enough. I don't always feel the need to delve deeper into the inner workings of an action or comment I think is voteworthy.