Large Normal 211: Scientific Mafia

[Pine]

VOTE: Firebringer

Hai

[Pine]

Sorry my bad Masonbuddy!

Unvote

[Pine]

VOTE: uc voy
never played with you before

Which is obviously suspicious, amirite?

[Pine]

hey all

VOTE: beefster

you are at least supposed to have a reason in rvs
at least i think so

Nah. Reasons are overrated.

VOTE: Gamma

[Pine]

hey all

VOTE: beefster

you are at least supposed to have a reason in rvs
at least i think so

why would it be random voting then?

I played with Thor recently and he said RVS is really Low information voting stage rather than purely random

So his idea was no one is “truly” random, as in roll the dice and vote where it lands - most people pick some kind of bizarre reason to put whatever vote they choose

So in line with that principle, if gamma doesn’t want to play for an IRL day, let’s find out what he’s up to

Not a fan of this appeal to authority, but it's from a new player, so it's unfortunately null.

I completely failed to respond to that post. Ascetic Miller isn't overkill for a fakeclaim, it's just wrong. "You can't visit me but if you could I would come up as scum," doesn't make sense.

Exactly. My guess is it's either Ascetic scum who didn't do the math or a troll role by the mod.

Reminds me of a memorable fakeMiller claim in DC vs Marvel that got me all the way to a flawless scumwin

Tip for next time, kid? Wait until everyone else has posted at least once, pretend you missed the game start, and then claim. Someone else claiming Miller can screw you right away.

Would mafia claim something like this this early?

Worked for me, once upon a time. It's a solid scum strategy, if played right.

This is not playing it right.

-------

Later comments on Flavor Leaf having a pattern of screwing around makes me question all this, but I find Town fakeclaiming like this to be anti-Wincon, so a vote is warranted either way.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Pine]

Yeah, nah. Boon or not, I'm cool with my vote.

PEdit: Cool story bro. Thanks for the flattery earlier, though.

[Pine]

Everyone is talking about the miller bit and I do t see anyone mentioning that Gamma gave himself a reason to get out the way and not react to being outed as a neighbour to this baloney

It kinda makes me think Gamma was prepped for this which doesn’t make FL a miller but the neighbourhood bit might be a thing

Gamma and I finished a game recently where we were in a neighborhood together, I was scum, he wanted to mason claim with me, and 3p lylo we lynched a rolecopped confirmed Miller.

@Gamma - you get to bring up my “forgot I was Vig not SK” story, I get to bring up this one.

Ah so that’s why you claimed Ascetic

You're working really hard to make Gamma's "I'm not going to be here for a single day" into something. What's with that?

Profil would be a solid vote too.

[Pine]

Boon Flavor is the right place to be. Choo choo!

[Pine]

Would mafia claim something like this this early?

Looks like they had a cleaner gambit in mind than what they attempted

How is this alignment indicative?

Can we stop normalizing town making shitty fakeclaim gambits please

If you really have to take this angle then you can consider flavor a policy lynch best by either the play or the actual role

Yassss, PREACH

The odds of this being an all town neighborhood are very low.

Obvious is obvious

tell me something i dont know

I've lost almost 20 pounds since year start.

The odds of this being an all town neighborhood are very low.

How many scum should we expect in a 20p game

The hood seems to have outed itself with no disputes - is a 1 in 4 chance at mafia going to be better than however many in 20

I’m assuming we don’t have 5 scum here so surely yes?

The higher the number of players goes, the fuzzier the math gets. I'm a little rusty, but best guess is 6 scum, with possibility for Vig and/or SK, or 5 without. Alternatively, two teams of 4 or high-powered teams of 3. 13v3v3v1 is especially likely if there's a SK. Likely with a BP on both scumteams?

Like I said, the math is a lot fuzzier at 20 than at lower numbers.

[Pine]

Focusing night actions on the neighborhood might be a good approach if we're reasonably certain there is scum there.

This feels self-serving despite its apparent logic.

[Pine]

Focusing night actions on the neighborhood might be a good approach if we're reasonably certain there is scum there.

This feels self-serving despite its apparent logic.

Catching scum is self serving?

Directing night actions away from oneself is selfserving.

[Pine]

TIAM is probably town

y tho

[Pine]

TIAM is probably town

y tho

Hard for me to put into words.

The level of ignorance he just displayed doesn’t feel fabricated. It reads like he’s generally annoyed with your comment and believes he can call you out on it.

Ugh, that actually makes sense.

Vote Flavor Flav with me

[Pine]

Nah, I'm thinking LUV's got the right of it here.

[Pine]

Or here's a thought: More than one scum in the neighborhood? One from each team? Assuming, of course, two teams.

Feels like scumslip, but probably isn't?

[Pine]

Or here's a thought: More than one scum in the neighborhood? One from each team? Assuming, of course, two teams.

Feels like scumslip, but probably isn't?

Looks like scum, but probably is too obvious. Maybe NewTown?

[Pine]

That sort of thing is REALLY hard to fake. I'm calling Inferno and TIAM probTown at this point.

[Pine]

Imma just vig the whole neighborhood, mmkay?

[Pine]

Day kill: Inferno

I'm as serious as a head wound.

[Pine]

So what's the flip? Impatient.

[Pine]

BRUH.
Well, that got me out of the day quick. Scummy as frick usage though.

Can't be scum, mafia vigs are explicitly unallowed
Still a horrible shot, why wouldn't he follow his own read and shoot Flavor first?

Yeah, which makes me explicitly Town. Keep up.

Shooting out of neighborhood, plus we can lynch Flavor. My daykill explicitly does not end day.

[Pine]

It's literally going to be Town Neighbor. Can y'all lynch Pine for me? Thanks.
Oh well. I have a lot on my plate at the moment anyways, so it's not all bad.

P-edit: Day SK perhaps?

Ah, oh well. This is what I was fishing for. Daykill is fake.

Maintaining claim is NAI. Was hoping inferno was inexperienced enough to be cop to being scum.

[Pine]

VOTE: Pine
since his kill was fake I see no reason to not vote him because the gambit legit does jack shit to make him look towny

Yeah, it's not about me. It's about provoking a hard-to-read newbie into maybe making a newbie mistake. Only scum worries about looking Townie.

Come on, Gamma. You're smart enough to know this stuff.

[Pine]

its 2018 and people still fall for daykill gambits on page 7 omg

Right?

To be fair, it's just people new to the meta. I wouldn't have tried that on you. I wanted to pick someone from the neighborhood to try it on, and inferno was the only one new enough not to immediately call bullshit.

Like I said, though, maintaining claim is NAI. Even newscum have a good chance of calling the bluff, and may be coached if they have daychat.

[Pine]

Why do you think scum would drop a neighbor claim after a dayvig? That's just nonsense.

The neighbor claim is irrelevant. Some scum, when they get hammered or dayvigged, just gg and fess up to being scum. That's what I was looking for.

Seriously. You've been around enough to know this. Quit being obtuse.

[Pine]

okay now that i look at it

pine called inferno town
and then two posts [iso wise] later he does the fake day kill
which does undermine the effect of the gambit

Actually, what I said was that he was being too obvscum to be scum. The inherent uncertainty makes him a perfect target for a fakevig gambit. Or, frankly, a real vig. Never vig/cop people you have solid SRs on, lynch them. Cop or vig the people you're unsure of and have contradictory evidence on.

that is also alignment indicative
though i am not sure how specifically
depends on if multiball is actually true this game or not

My gut says multiball, though singleball is possible.

To be perfectly honest, my crystal ball says 13/3/3/1, with solid scum power probably consisting of a weak investigate and weak protective on either side, a 1-shot BP SK, and middling Town power that includes a Vig.

[Pine]

@Firebringer: Yeah. Town committee = Pine, Gamma, Fire, Flubber.

Inferno and TIAM are likely Town too, but not up to par.

I feel like I'm forgetting someone though.

[Pine]

I'm caught between Gamma and Leaf as scum in the hood. Pine is null to me. TIAM is something, just not sure what. Null reads on everyone esle atm.

You've explained Flavor but what about me?

You're being too bullheaded not to be Town.

[Pine]

Oh, so he is. Whatever, he's wrong. I was speaking my truth, bruv.

[Pine]

@Firebringer: Yeah. Town committee = Pine, Gamma, Fire, Flubber.

Inferno and TIAM are likely Town too, but not up to par.

I feel like I'm forgetting someone though.

Why fire?

Call it gut, call it soulread, call it meta. Hard to say exactly.

[Pine]

No way are there fewer than 5 scum. Math better.

[Pine]

14:5:1 is possible, but only if there isn't a vig.

[Pine]

Nah, we're not limiting our lynches to the neighborhood. We're limiting our lynches to scummy players. A mild preference for the neighborhood is fine though.

[Pine]

Yeah Imma pass on those Egg questions. Dude is in hardcore confirmation bias.

Protip: Don't make a snap judgment then view all new evidence through the lens of the old assumption.

[Pine]

I'm getting some town feeling from Egg right now. His reads seem pretty genuine, and original too: They're completely his own, which I like.
Startingto lean town on Pine too a little bit. @Pine, talk to me about Egg. I know you don't like the questions aimed at you, but what about the rest of his reads?

Nah, Egg's fine. He's hunting, he's just sucking at it.

I'm proceeding on a multiball assumption, so scumhunting is mostly null. In other words, Egg is doing genuine work that has merit, he's just tunneling me wrong.

[Pine]

No way are there fewer than 5 scum. Math better.

there can be 4 scum if there's an sk

anti-town can be less than a 3rd of the town

Traditionally not, and this cleared Normal review. 14:6, 12:4:4, 13:3:3:1, 14:5:1 with scum power would be traditional.

[Pine]

I'm getting some town feeling from Egg right now. His reads seem pretty genuine, and original too: They're completely his own, which I like.
Startingto lean town on Pine too a little bit. @Pine, talk to me about Egg. I know you don't like the questions aimed at you, but what about the rest of his reads?

Nah, Egg's fine. He's hunting, he's just sucking at it.

I'm proceeding on a multiball assumption, so scumhunting is mostly null. In other words, Egg is doing genuine work that has merit, he's just tunneling me wrong.

so i guess you missed the post where assemble said this game does not have multiple scumteams

Obviously.

Also, 14:6 is not scumsided if Town has decent power. However, I defer to players who haven't been on hiatus for a year with respect to the Normal review board's current meta.

Also I am legit claiming right now.

I am a cop.

I will investigate one of luv, nsg or flavor tonight

[Pine]

How’s life been pine?

Please don't engage me in off-topic posting, friendo. We can chat about life elsewhere. You got reads?

[Pine]

General announcement

We seem to have a lot of newbies and lowbies in this game. As such, it is less likely that someone with Cop experience got the investigative role.

GENERAL COP STRATEGY:

-Do not investigate your Townreads. Most of the time you're right, and you've wasted your investigation. Even if it comes up guilty, people are wired to trust their instincts, and you will doubt your result, concocting worries of Millers, Framers, and what have you. Avoid your Townreads, it's likely a wasted investigation.
-Do not investigate your scumreads. Again, a guilty result is just going to confirm what you already believe. Lunch your reads, don't waste the Town's most valuable action on them. And don't give me bullshit about needing to confirm they weren't Town after all, your reads need to be better than that.
-Do not investigate people likely to be lynched, regardless of your read. If you can't sway the vote off of them without hardclaiming your innocent and revealing your role, it's not worth it.
-DO investigate people you can't read. Investigate lurkers. Investigate nulls. Investigate the ones who have evidence in both directions. Turning an unknown into a known is your primary job.
-DO breadcrumb your results. When you die, we're going to look for them.
-This advice may be easily adapted for Trackers and other more obscure investigators.
-If you are a Watcher, disregard all of this. Your role is different. Watch claimed PRs. Watch softed PRs. Watch people who are influential. And DON'T jump to conclusions.
-Vigilantes operate under similar parameters, but I prefer to target suspected lurking scum and those I have a strong read on but can't get lynched. There's lots of Vig strategies, I should read up.

[Pine]

@Nictis a chainsaw defense is when one's scumbuddy attacks the person accusing their partner.

A and B are scum. C calls A scummy. B attacks C.

This is fairly basic Mafia theory. I don't mean to insult, but have you been to the Newbie forum? There are lots of helpful people there who will guide you through your first games. I'd do so, but this isn't the game for it. I'm only educating incidentally out of a desire to win.

[Pine]

Pine thinks I’m lying

Or a noob

[Pine]

@Egg - Okay, I apologize for the salt. Maybe it's just that I'm hardwired to take it personally when someone is up in my business when I'm doing work scumhunting. You do come off as Town to me, I just didn't find your questions especially useful. Most of them were fairly self-evident. If you can pare it down to just a couple of meaningful queries, I'll reply.

[Pine]

I think north side might be scum btw

Yeah I was looking through the lurkers and I'm feeling it too.

[Pine]

I wanted to do links because I didn't want a massive quote wall, but no one pays attention to links it seems. Unfortunately as I said a wall will also make people ignore my thoughts, and multiple individual quotes will come off as spam. So I guess my verdict on the new playstyle is that there is no good way to engage people with my thoughts.

I feel you there.

VOTE: Nictis

I think north side might be scum btw

I think I'll just raise my eyebrow here and wait for some actual thoughts and reasoning.

Can't speak for FB, but it's a meta/gut read. I don't have a ton of experience with NSG myself, but this feels vaguely like the minimalism I encountered in a recent marathon when she was scum.

Not everything has concrete reasons, especially early suspicions like this. Experienced players learn to trust their guts.

[Pine]

Push Flavor because he's scum. It's the right play.

[Pine]

Girls you're both pretty

[Pine]

Okay yeah northside is scum lol

Yarp. Took the words right out of my mouth. "Surface level" is an excellent way to describe it.

VOTE: northsidegal

Stay on Target, Red Five. BoonFlavor is the lynch today. We can string NSG up tomorrow.

[Pine]

huh

this honestly feels rehearsed and like scum theatre

No it does not. Scum theatre isn't usually this petty or simple.

[Pine]

huh

this honestly feels rehearsed and like scum theatre
so i am going to go ahead and scum-read northsidegal and firebringer

of the two i do not have a preference and since i just noticed the rules do not forbid this

if 1 i will vote northsidegal
if 2 i will vote firebringer

Original Roll String: 1d2 (STATIC)

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[i look forward to this being used as an example of why provable randomness should/should not be allowed]

((Voice of the faux IC: Provable randomness is usually banned, considered tantamount to cheating. Given how you narrowed the choices before the dice tags you're probably okay, but you're best off using different strategies))

[Pine]

As of page 19, before I begin catchup.

Townbloc

Pine
Firebringer
Flubber
Gamma (But needs to shape up his reads)

Comes off as Town

Egg
Inferno
TIAM (I agreed with FB's point on p18)
Theta Alpha

Feels scummy to me

profil
NSG
Flavor Leaf
Nosferatu - I was ISOing the people I couldn't remember about and he's got nothing productive in. Reminds me of scumNos from some Large Normal a year or so ago. I checked his whole ISO. 43 posts, no real positions or content. This is activelurking/coasting scum.

*Shrug*

LUV
Archwing
Beefster
Nictis (Either way, comes off greener than moldy ham. Truly green players are hard to read)

Sir/Dame Not-Appearing-In-This-Game-Yet

PeregrineV

Reading now, let's see how these reads change!

[Pine]

I love nos posts in this game.

Townreading him just for the gr8ness that those posts are

No. Bad Growlithe! Constant trolling without contributing is funny, but not Towny.

townlean:
profii
flavor leaf
pine
Theta
LUV

null to town:
Egg NSG, Fire, Gamma, Nos, Nictis,

null-can't-read-shit:
PeregrineV, UCV, Luca, Beef,

scumlean:
inferno
red
2iam
flubber

Ugh, your reads are fucking awful, but at least you're committing to something.

I'll back off FL amid public pressure but I still think he's scum ftr.

UNVOTE:

No. I'm backing you here. There are two sides to this conversation, and subtly pressuring people off of a wagon is

exactly

how scum weasels out of being lynched.

Remember, if you have a read, then everyone else can go to hell unless you are compromising on something. Just because they disagree is a shit reason to back down. Town vs scum, remember? It's scum's job to discourage good reads. Go with your own logic, your own gut. Don't trust.

Flavor Leaf is town.
Fakeclaiming to get out of RVS is just not something I see coming from scum.

Then you lack imagination.

FoS: 2inamillion

Why not a vote? This (and the followup vote when provoked) looks a lot like a pussyass chainsaw.

VOTE: UCV

Boring.

Also this ain’t RVS.

Not boring. Off topic. Profil is trying to look like he's doing something without actually doing something.

I also no longer think Pine is scum.

The sentiment is not mutual.

Based on what?

Why r u voting a person with no posts?

Is that a chainsaw I see?

I reiterate my point.

[Pine]

Readslist from 672 mostly stays the same. Archwing up into null-Townish, Beef down into moderately scummy, profil scumread strengthened.

[Pine]

No. Bad Growlithe! Constant trolling without contributing is funny, but not Towny.

No u

This was worded ambiguously, which is my bad. *Nosferatu* is the one failing to contribute positively, not you. You're trolling in a good way.

Srsly bro, go ISO Nos for me. 43 posts, zero constructive content. Dat scum.

PE: Flubber, Fire is being constructive with his trolling. His mockery is incisive, his sarcasm reveals actual opinions, etc. There's a big difference

[Pine]

Lots of things? It's not just the claim, though that's part of it. It's an established scumtactic to claim Miller. Ascetic seems to be a common modifier this game, as we've seen several mentions of it, so I think he's some kind of Ascetic scum who didn't think through the ramifications of the Ascetic interaction. The claim was a mistake, obviously, but I think it was a mistake from the scum side of things.

More than that, though, it's the other little things. The way he's reacted to being wagoned stands out. Instead of scumhunting and gamesolving his way out of being suspected, he's focused on his detractors and their suspicions, relying on reputation and allies to aggressively discourage the wagon. I mean, you saw how he tried to buddy up to me, both at my first suspicion of him and now recently, and you saw how TIAM got bullied away from voting him.

He's not really producing much that's worthy of merit on the scumhunting front, and what reads he has stated seem governed by whim and the social side rather than active logic.

So yeah. It's a complex scumread. Not a "lolclaim=scum" read.

I could go for a profil lynch though, if wagoning that will get some momentum.

[Pine]

In fact, let's do that. I want Flavor lynched, but the wagon is stale and stalled. If your vote isn't working for you it's worthless.

VOTE: Profil

Let's see what happens here.

[Pine]

I've said plenty on Profil, Gamma. ISO me, CTRL+F. If there's something specific you want an opinion on, say so.

[Pine]

OK, I followed my own advice and ISO'd myself with CTRL+F "profil'. You're right, it's a little sparse, but that's mostly because it's based on a few small but salient points. I just ISO'd profii in its entirety (learning in the process that I'd been misspelling their name, my bad,) and there is absolute

balls

for content. Like 2/3 of their posts are procedural, or naked votes, or asking isolated questions out of the blue to someone. In other words, it's exactly what you see when someone is trying to look busy and engaged, but is actually just treading water. It's the forum version of active listening. "Yep.......mmmhmmm......how did that make you feel.......really?......Hey what do you think?" The only thing worth taking note of is the readslists in 355, which I will here quote in its entirety:

right probably spreading myself a bit thin across multiple games, apologies. Here we go though.

Archwing: please post more - side note, archwing answers the initial query over multiball, i think ill note this as i have an idea...

Beefster: vla

egg: I like the initial reads and picking up that TiaM reacted badly, i agree here. Following my multiball idea, it appears Inferno picks up the multiball idea, I want to find the root of this discussion...

Firebringer: i always find the short sentence style players hard to read. noting 273 for scum teams reference. Oh the cop claim - pushing Flavour, LUV or NSG. 2 members of the hood, why not Gamma or Inferno?

Flavour Leaf: I just simply dont trust this slot until it's PR'd in some way. I played a game with FL once and a couple of players just sheep'd his day 1 reads in twilight based on rep - no offence but I can't believe anyone can be such a mafia genius so I'll give you some time. Unless you are mechanically proved town, i wouldnt take this slot to lylo however.

Flubber: not done a great deal so far. Would have to look again if Gamma dropped dead right now but other than that... i await content (not a criticism, I know I'm not doing great on that front)

Gamma: I got bored of clicking the links but some of the ISO seemed ok with me. I would suggest maybe some kind of brief title, followed by link, followed by thoughts E.g My scum read on player X 1 look at the stuff in the post it's so obvious - etc etc- in this era of clickbait i want to know what I'm getting before i get there, the comments need to be more succinct before you earn a click from me. Sorry.

Inferno - right 142 this seems to be the start of the multiball theory. I know the mod has non-confirmed it. I wonder if this is a scum player who thinks their scum team is underpowered. I also think from my experience of him in a newbie game recently (1851 positivity on my wiki) says to me Inferno is switched on enough to not give the game away after that day vig gambit. Also - he was town in that game and got triggered at a lot of what I'd call fairly routine scum hunting, doesn't seem to be the case here, I'm thinking this slot rolled scum...
Also the random PR reveal concerns me. He knew in the newbie game to keep quiet with his PR and one of the above ISOs said no scum day chat in the rules, so this might have been for his scum mates





infact Im happy enough with that to just lay the vote down here, if I go any further, I will start trying to create conf bias so let's go...


VOTE: Inferno

That's essentially an entire page worth of saying "I dunno" about half a dozen players, then concocts a weak case to go after low-hanging fruit.

Profii=scum

PE: Not really, but I think it *might* be based in part in truth. It's circumstantial on its own, but fits with other evidence.

[Pine]

Also, @Gamma and anyone else

Pine just described me literally in every game, regardless of alignment.

Then be better at Mafia.

[Pine]

I get to be Town leader tomorrow Pine.

Cuz I'm prolly ded tonight? Ya be my guest.

@Flavor:



PE: lolno

[Pine]

Yeah....actual Town wouldn't know this to be TvT. That's not quite a scumslip, but it's definitely not a Townish thing to say. At all.

I'm done with the genital measuring contest for now. I'mma go shoot some moar dudez on the Playstation.

[Pine]

oo a me wagon.

either UCV is scum and someone on the wagon is part of a chainsaw
or UCV is town and the whole wagon is town, maybe a late joiner is scum

right o.

False dichotomy. Truth: I think you are scum.

[Pine]

Yeah, except Profii was impugning possible motivations for the wagon, suggesting a false dichotomy. 1) Chainsaw defense of UCV, which is ridiculous or 2) UCV is Town and something about a late joiner is scum this one didn't actually make any damn sense. I was proffering a 3) No, I actually just think you're scum, and your vote is irrelevant.

Come on, Gamma. It was a turn of phrase, not an insight.

[Pine]

Bad for game =! scummy. Almost 30 pages is daunting to most people. It takes me about an hour to read and fully digest 20ish pages. Lurking D1 is a shit reason. Given much better reasons to vote people on the table, it's an attempt to look productive without actually doing anything.

[Pine]

Concluding anything on page 5 is pretty fucking weak.

[Pine]

You're confusing coming to a conclusion on page 5, which is not a thing, with getting an early impression that strengthens and evolves over time. I constantly re-evaluate, and sometimes change my mind if new evidence contradicts the old. Beef was saying he'd come to a conclusion that 20+ pages wasn't going to change. That's weak.

[Pine]

Woah, did we just ignore someone fakelclaim

It was sarcastic, implausible, and immediately retracted. Don't get hung up on dumb stuff.

[Pine]

Woah, did we just ignore someone fakelclaim

It was sarcastic, implausible, and immediately retracted. Don't get hung up on dumb stuff.

So, interestingly enough, this was a thing that happened, but I was misrembering LUV's callout.

I still don't understand what facilitated profii slot being scum based on their experience with UCV

Profii was scummy before the UCV vote, for reasons already stated. A vanity vote on UCV was a lazy excuse to look active and productive.

[Pine]

Woah, did we just ignore someone fakelclaim

It was sarcastic, implausible, and immediately retracted. Don't get hung up on dumb stuff.

Hey pot
meet kettle

hey pine this is a post you should be responding to

I already did. You're alleging that the two situations are similar. I am contending that they're entirely different.

[Pine]

Prodded. I'm back on post 900ish.

[Pine]

I am the sick

Koff koff ded

This game is a priority this evening

[Pine]

Schwing! I was right about Nos.

VOTE: profii

[Pine]

Well, that just about confirms Mulch to be Town, unless he's the SK of the game. Wouldn't expect him to intentionally kill the mafia if that was the case though after one is lynched and so many are still alive.

So, about 95% Town Mulch.

Explain?

[Pine]

Well, that just about confirms Mulch to be Town, unless he's the SK of the game. Wouldn't expect him to intentionally kill the mafia if that was the case though after one is lynched and so many are still alive.

So, about 95% Town Mulch.

Explain?

Never mind. ISOed Mulch

[Pine]

Just ISOed RedFlavor. I can endorse a wagon on him. Ausuka nailed the reasons.

VOTE: RedFlavor

[Pine]

Yep. Gamma, inferno, FlavorLeaf, LUV/Mordin. Inferno and Gamma are probably lockTown because of Mordin's flip.

PE: Stop being dumb, TIAM.

[Pine]

I doubt TTSS.

If we combine the remaining 'Hood, your Masonry, and the Vig who shot Nos, we'd probably have a gamesolve.

[Pine]

I seriously doubt there's a SK.

[Pine]

17 remaining.

2 remaining 'Hood members
3 Masons
Vigilante.

6 lockTown, 11 not. Okay, not a gamesolve, but getting close.

PE: I scumread Nos before you did. Just saying.

[Pine]

No. Shut up. He hardclaimed Mason while nailing two scum on D1. Stay on target.

[Pine]

Mulch. Get in here and gamesolve this with me.

PE: Well, fuck me for skimming. Still. Let's figure this out.

[Pine]

Proposed Townbloc: Mulch, Firebringer, Pine, Gamma, inferno, maybe Ausuka.
Allowed to sheep Townbloc: TIAM

Thoughts?

[Pine]

I think luv is town

Discuss

This is exactly the type of thing I would say as a mafia traitor

Thoughts??

It's also the sort of thing Fire would say as Town. Or scum. Or third party. It's totally NAI.

[Pine]

What's your point? Misreading scum =! being scum.

PE: Don't know your meta, Ausuka, but you look Townish.

[Pine]

I only dropped it down to 80% because of his admittance to killing Nos. It's still a lot more likely for him to be Vig that shot his scum read than SK pretending to be Vig shooting his scumread, but the admittance that he did it and there only being two kills means it still needs to be considered.

He didn't kill Nos.

[Pine]

Pine is just being an ass for some reason. I was one of the leading lynchers on the scum wagon yesterday.

It's called bussing. I'm pretty sure you're Town, but I don't fully trust you.

That's called playing the game, not being an ass. I'm not saying anything personal against you. Kindly stop being an oversensitive twat. (See the difference? That was personal.)

[Pine]

Good vig kill is good.

This looks like fishing for someone to take credit.

Now I need to ISO Beef.

[Pine]

Weird interactions with TIAM wagon and Mulch wagon.

Scum:
2iam
Inferno
Arch
Nos
maybe Mulch
maybe Gamma

Practically every Townbloc member on a too-large scumlist.

Did I claim cop or vig in this game?

I forgot tbh.

Anyways I’m shooting nsg

Cop.

Paying very close attention to softs and claims.

Methinks this is scum.

[Pine]

I think that's three votes to get a quorum.

VOTE: Beefster

[Pine]

Or he could get vigged.

[Pine]

You want an accident should happen to him, boss?

[Pine]

Oh fuck it.

Let's stay on task.

I'm the vigilante.

I'm 2-shot aesthetic. They can't stop my N2 kill, then I become vanilla.

[Pine]

Obviously not. Mulch was fakeclaiming the kill, probably to cover for the real vig (me). I've softed too hard, and it's muddied the waters. I can't be stopped N2, and I'm vanilla after, so there's not a lot of reason to hide it.

PE: Thanks Mulch, but I'd rather they kill me than you.
PE2: Town Ascetic 2-shot Vigilante

[Pine]

the funniest thing about this Beefster wagon is that it's probably all-town

Yup.

[Pine]

Again, we could bail out and have me shoot him. I'd rather not quicklynch and then be wondering who to shoot.

Unvote

[Pine]

Why does ascetic =your night 2 kill can’t be stopped?

I can't be roleblocked. Ascetic can't be targeted by actions except kills. I doubt the scum have a Doctor, though they might have a Bulletproof.

[Pine]

Then I am not precluding you as a SK.

That's fair, and entirely within your power.

FWIW, there's absolutely no way I soft like this, or claim unprovoked, as a SK. There's zero advantage in it, as it practically guarantees I don't go to LYLO. I'm fine with that.

[Pine]

Me as a Serial Killer

[Pine]

Then I am not precluding you as a SK.

That's fair, and entirely within your power.

FWIW, there's absolutely no way I soft like this, or claim unprovoked, as a SK. There's zero advantage in it, as it practically guarantees I don't go to LYLO. I'm fine with that.

I am saying Pine may be Vig and Mulch may be SK. He has been buddying Flavor and Me pretty hard.

Plausible? We would have to have both targeted Nos last night, the odds of which are small.

[Pine]

Either way, optimal SK play is to act like a vigilante until Mafia is dead. Optimal Town play is to eliminate the Mafia, then if the game isn't over, to THEN hunt the SK. Mulch is fine as long as he keeps scumhunting. In the tiny chance that he's SK, we'll deal with him later. In any case, we don't worry about it until it becomes necessary.

[Pine]

Ausuka is super obvTown now, she can get that full promotion to the Townbloc.

[Pine]

anyone else feel like beefster and FB are both scum and that post was made by scum!beefster trying to create distance?

I still have a Townread on Fire, but if we nail scum!Beef, we'll have ages to find the last scum.

Going to go ISO Mordin and Nos.

[Pine]

@Mulch, Ausuka, TIAM, other people who don't know me that well: This is not my usual Town meta. I am usually much lazier, given to isolating and reading people individually. I prefer to Townhunt. D1 was much more representative. I'm just sitting at my parents' house waiting to be called for the baby shower, so I'm super switched on right now. Just don't use this hyperTowning against me in the future, mmkay?

[Pine]

So are we lynching Beef or am I shooting?

[Pine]

Baby shower over. Good times, totally exhausted.

Lynch beef, shoot fire imo

I'm not shooting Fire. I think he's Town.

I feel like we should have you shoot beef, and lynch someone else

This is my thinking. I'll take the guaranteed NK on the primary suspect, let's gamesolve the fourth scumzor.

Theta is probably town

Yep. Welcome to the Townbloc (probationary status).

I'm down for a beef lynch today, but I agree he's probably better sorted out with a vig.

I was looking at texcat/slot overnight, and didn't really see much action there.

I'm interested in Pine's 2shot ascetic claim. Just to be clear, Pine, that two shot is not activated, right? it's a passive thing?

Ausuka is probably town?

inferno is most definitely town.

ehm, basically i'm cool with
{firebringer, Beef, NSG(this one would need work though), redflavor, flubber}

The Vig is 2-shot, Ascetic is just a standard modifier. Try it with a comma: Ascetic, 2-shot Vigilante.

btw the reason why beef is better as a vig than a lynch is that he is a pretty consensus scumread and it's better to vig those, while you should be lynching in non-consensus scumreads because that helps generate further content

Agree with this.

also archwing
the town tier and scum tier are for confirmed town and scum

also i believe the 2-shot ascetic vig is an active variation
as in ascetic only when making a vig shot and only has 2 vig shots

Honestly I didn't ask, but standard construction of this sort of thing is that they're independent of one another. If it was an active thing, I'd have been told. As in 2-shot Ascetic Vig, rather than Ascetic 2-shot vig.

Why do we give a shit?

I don't really care but everyone else wants to use the vig. No point arguing over that.

I think we leave firebringer alive for a while, so if he's really Cop, we get more results, and scum have to kill him or let us get the results. If he's scum we don't really lose anything.

This is a good point.

I feel like we should have you shoot beef, and lynch someone else

I'm fine with this. Fire away.

u bulletproof scum bro?

Still feeling Profii!scum.

[Pine]

TwoInAMillion
Mulch

Theta Alpine
Pine
Gamma Emerald

Inferno390

Ausuka

northsidegal
texcat
Egg
Archwing
Nictis
Flubbernugget
Firebringer
RedFlavor

Beefster

profii

This is where I'm at. I want to sort the italicized names before we commit to any lynch.

[Pine]

As in 2-shot Ascetic Vig, rather than Ascetic 2-shot vig.

which is why i said later that i had misread your role

ok we cool now

[Pine]

Pine why am I not a Mason with u anymore

Because we're over here gamesolving and you're not.

Don't worry bro, you're still a TR. Mulch wanted me to shoot you and I said no.

[Pine]

You’re full of shit :lol

VOTE: profii

Recent vote count says UCV requested replacement..

Why didn’t you unvote, profii?

Profii can't be mafia

Those quotes don't mean shite. Scum distances.

[Pine]

Anyone else getting Arch!scum vibes?

[Pine]

Let it go and get to work scumhunting.

[Pine]

I mostly do my own research, Nictis, but your eagerness to lobby me is noted.

[Pine]

TwoInAMillion
Mulch

Theta Alpine
Pine
Gamma Emerald

Inferno390

Ausuka
northsidegal
Firebringer

texcat
Egg
Archwing
Nictis
Flubbernugget
RedFlavor

Beefster

profii

That's 9/17 of the playerbase in the Townbloc. Assuming we didn't screw up any of those Townbloc recruitments, we can lynch/vig outside the Townbloc for an easy win. Copping the italics will also narrow the sorting.

PE: Hell, I didn't believe your claim either. Protective on Fire.

[Pine]

<Meant to post this first. Damn browser tabs>

Okay.

If the Cop claim and inno is a hardclaim, I'm comfortable adding Firebringer and NSG fully into the Townbloc.

Welcome!

[Pine]

I prefer beef to redflavor but I would do either one today.

we can have both!

I feel like this day is dragging out for way too long. I like the redflavor wagon, and I don't think anyone really townreads him.

I concur.

I think it's time. Our productivity has stalled after an incredibly positive day phase, let's get some flips.

VOTE: RedFlavor

[Pine]

I'm shooting beef

At this point we need to narrow our options. Even a townlynch helps rn

[Pine]

Ok.

VOTE: Profii

[Pine]

I have a profii, nictis, inferno scum team.

One out of three. Not bad.

/sarcasm

[Pine]

Ausuka are you a shiny Vulpix?

[Pine]

I've been trying to place that for a week now. The off color scheme made it not 'click' until I was about to rib you for sheeping, and then I got it. That's no sheep...it's a vulpix

[Pine]

Original 150 Pokémon 4 lyfe

[Pine]

The Gen-3 remakes are a vast improvement. I also approve of HeartGold/SoulSilver

[Pine]

wat

We're discussing pokemon because it's a better game than mafia.

BLASPHEMY

VOTE: AUSUKA

[Pine]

Okay I calmed down.

VOTE: Profii

PE: SELF-VOTE SCUMSLIP KILL IT WITH FIRE

Yeah not changing my vote again. Shenanigans are fun but let's kill scum.

[Pine]

You're alright, Ausuka. I think we can be friends.

[Pine]

[Pine]

[Pine]

[Pine]

We should probably stop

[Pine]

I have a profii, nictis, inferno scum team.

One out of three. Not bad.

/sarcasm

Would you like to talk about your town reads on those two?

Inferno is cleared due to the neighborhood. The only way Inferno is scum is a TTSS 'hood, which is very low-order probability.

I don't have a TR on Nictis, though I'd call them newb!Town if I had to guess. The problem is your lack of evidence and the existence of people far more likely scum. Like Beefster, who just a few hours ago refused to move his vote off the hardclaimed Cop.

[Pine]

Honestly, I think the solution at this point is {profii, Beef}

Even if that’s not right, there’s a lot of sorting power to this.

The people dithering in the wings need to get with the program.

[Pine]

Grow some genitals and do it yourself. “Oh I’ll hammer if it’s popular” is the worst. Commit or don’t.

[Pine]

Yeah, but also kind of not. Please do not be that easy to manipulate in the future.

[Pine]

Who's talking?

[Pine]

Pretty sure that 's' is Profii. And that you're wrong about Inferno.

[Pine]

I don't hate that list, though I've been very mildly TRing Nictis due to newbie-tryharding

[Pine]

I'm pretty sure Nictis's list is in the order listed by the mod in the first post

[Pine]

It lines up with what he quoted in 1740 too.

I also started my sort by copy/pasting the first post. Honestly, that suggests a Townish attempt to honestly sort.

I mean, that said, I fabricate stuff like that using similar methods as scum, but that's a bit sophisticated for a newish player. Hardly impossible, but it weakly suggests Town.

[Pine]

TIAM, Inferno, Firebringer and NSG

Get on board here. We're ready for some flips.

[Pine]

I guess no one will ever vote Theta with me, and Beefster no longer looks viable.

VOTE: RedFlavor

Wtf is this

Seriously thinking about vigging this. Beef can be lynched tomorrow.

[Pine]

We should lynch the people we're more sure of. Stay on target.

The job of a vig is to take care of stuff that doesn't require debate - either because it is universally-approved, like Beef, or likely to be a long hard slog to consensus.

[Pine]

I already proved that profii is town

Also I dont like tex's vote
VOTE: tex

Show your work.

Quote the post where you prove it.

[Pine]

About damn time.

[Pine]

Fire, please cop someone null. Theta or Nictis would be good targets.

[Pine]

Super. He is to most of us.

[Pine]

Well fuck, Beef. My bad. You certainly didn't do much to try and save yourself.

I cannot possibly imagine that egg was paying so little attention that he hid behind Beef, so egg must've hidden behind scum.

When I am not playing Civ6 with the boys, I'll be diving through his ISO to try and figure that out.

[Pine]

Hmm.

If I die, lynch texcat.

Oh, never mind. This is a pretty obvious breadcrumb.

VOTE: texcat

[Pine]

Possible scum just killed egg, but meh. Seems unlikely.

Seems impossible, unless he didn't hide. Hider can't be killed unless they are strongmanned, hide behind scum, or the person they hide behind is killed.

He wouldn't have hidden behind Beefster. It's very unlikely he was strongmanned. He very strongly crumbed a texcat hide.

Ergo, texcat is 99.9% scum.

Choo choo

PE: Alternatively I shoot texcat.

By the way, I lied about being a 2-shot vig. I'm a 3-shot vig.

[Pine]

Good point.

VOTE: Texcat

That means either Pine didn't use his shot or mafia didn't use their kill, right?

I shot Beef.

Also, I still have a shot. I was downplaying how many shots I had to avoid being the kill.

[Pine]

Good point.

VOTE: Texcat

That means either Pine didn't use his shot or mafia didn't use their kill, right?

I shot Beef.

Also, I still have a shot. I was downplaying how many shots I had to avoid being the kill.

So if texcat died from hiding and you killed Beef that means mafia didn't kill.

More likely, their target was protected. Maybe they shot at egg.

[Pine]

If mafia shot egg, and egg hid behind texcat, then texcat could still be town. Mafia could have picked up the breadcrumb.

Then texcat would be dead. Hider doesn't die INSTEAD of their hidee, they die WITH them.

[Pine]

Are we sure we want a quick day?

Again, I'm happy to just shoot texcat.

[Pine]

i don't think it has to be a quick day but i think getting the confirmed scum lynch is better than resolving it through night actions, avoids any sort of trickery and now

(if i'm counting the number of scum correctly?) roleblockers / trackers become basically cops.

This is a good point.

Speaking of cops, what did you get, Fire?

[Pine]

town

Never mind I don't read.

[Pine]

TwoInAMillion
Mulch

Theta Alpine
Pine
Gamma Emerald

Inferno390

Ausuka
northsidegal
Firebringer
Flubbernugget

Archwing
Nictis
RedFlavor

texcat

[Pine]

Do scum want to white flag at this point?

[Pine]

I haven't decided who to vig yet.

[Pine]

No, I'm not faking another shot.

[Pine]

I don't think it really matters if we have a quick day tbh.

I'm actually okay with it. It's usually not a good thing, but I think it is here.

[Pine]

Okay then yeah kind of doesn’t matter either way.

This game is locked.
We have lots of confirm Town.

Well.

My paranoia is starting to kick in. I want to get through the italicized middle before I let it take over though.

[Pine]

My bet is they shot you and you were protected.

[Pine]

Though again, my paranoia is kicking in, and it's screaming that you (PE: @Fire) could be scum who no-killed to set yourself up as vindicated confTown.

But that's paranoia. Rationality suggests you wouldn't do that, because how could you take that to LYLO?

PE: I couldn't have been shot at. I'm ascetic, any protection would have failed.

[Pine]

Bloc is spelled without a K. It's been bugging me.

lrn 2 engrish

[Pine]

Let's let everyone post at least, in case there's a Town roleblocker who wants to claim a successful block.

[Pine]

I mean if I am scum Pine....

I am pretty fucked in this game.
I have to confirm towns as I kill them.

That's why I'm not giving in to paranoia. It makes no sense AT ALL for you to fake your behavior.

[Pine]

northsidegal

,

texcat

,

TwoInAMillion

, Mulch, Archwing, Nictis,

Ausuka

, Theta Alpine,

Pine

, Gamma Emerald, Flubbernugget, Inferno390,

Firebringer

,

RedFlavor

RedFlavor

might

not have thought to claim a block, but everyone else struck has posted and not claimed a block. I'd like to see everyone remaining claim not roleblocker.

Mulch
Archwing
Nictis
Theta Alpine
GEmerald
Flubber
Inferno

[Pine]

GEmerald and Inferno are part of the neighborhood, so they are probably not also RBers.

Apologies for multiposting so much. I'm all hopped up on potato salad and late-night energy

[Pine]

With this much Town power in evidence, there are definitely 5 scum. Probably with power we haven't seen.

[Pine]

So how many scum left?
I am guessing if I had to guess one more?

20 player game usually means 4.5 scum.

3 dead scum.
That means could be texcat and one more person or just texcat.

So maybe just lynch texcat

Also Fire, this is your 25000th post.

HURRAY!

[Pine]

Im jail keeper
I blocked nosferatu n1 and texcat n2

So yeah its most likely tex

This is a scumclaim.

I killed Nos N1

Game solved.

[Pine]

What's the old DGB quote? Paraphrasing your role PM takes a moment, coming up with a fakeclaim takes forever?

PE: Yes, it is. You done fucked up. Eat my vig.
PE2: Bus driver or redirector not allowed in Normal games.

[Pine]

A *convincing* fakeclaim takes forever. You fucked up.

[Pine]

Yeah, and you just lied about it.

Get rekt yourself, scum

[Pine]

No I forgot about my action

Okay. Cool.

I was going to shoot you anyway. The "I don't know who to shoot" bit was to deflect any kind of avoidance.

[Pine]

I found the quote.

I bolded the important part for you, Red.
[quote=DrippingGoofball]

"Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a

good

fakeclaim takes an eternity."

[/quote]
Honestly, no hard feelings. You guys got railroaded but good this game, and it's not *entirely* you guys' fault. Town was super on point.

[Pine]

Fuck me, the quote broke.

"Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a

good

fakeclaim takes an eternity."

Fixed

[Pine]

I'm ascetic, so you can't stop me from shooting you. Want to run up the white flag?

[Pine]

I'm ascetic, so you can't stop me from shooting you. Want to run up the white flag?

Idk whats that

Give up.

[Pine]

[Pine]

VOTE: Mulch

wtf is this

[Pine]

Lynch tez if he flips mafia Im confrimed towb

No, you're not.

[Pine]

Yeah? Good on you for bussing, then.

[Pine]

That's game over

I'm shooting Red.

This looks like a white flag.

[Pine]

Cool

Gg

[Pine]

I suspect Fire is not a full cop

Especially as I am a full vig and was lying about all x-shot

The large number of ascetics may also have been a damper on Cop power

[Pine]

Awww balls.

Is there another scum out there, and RedFlavor's white flag was a gambit for us to come clean?

Shit everyone stop talking.

[Pine]

There is no universe where I claim vig unprovoked D2 as a SK. It makes not one tiny bit of sense.

I could see them allowing 6 underpowered scum against a powerful 14-man town

[Pine]

Besides, if game isn't over with a Red shot, I'm dead. I've already admitted to being a full vig who can't be protected, and I'm shooting the unknowns. Scum can't afford for me to keep shooting.

6-man scumteam opens up the possibility of TTSS neighborhood, fwiw.

[Pine]

I don't see the point of this. texcat and RF are confirmed scum; if the game doesn't end after their deaths, we lynch Pine, problem solved. It's already over.

Major alarm bells at this.

It reads as a pretext to kill someone else and set up a ML on me tomorrow.

I am not opposed to being lynched. In fact, DO NOT let me get to LYLO.

Until then I am an asset.

[Pine]

That's not what's ringing bells. I actually endorse "lynch the vig," and will voluntarily lead the wagon on myself in a few days if the game is still going.

What's worrying is you saying that if I'm not shot tonight, that I'm the next lynch. That smacks of setting up me up.

Again, I will gladly self-vote if this game isn't over.

But I am not the D4 lynch. I have too much utility to Town and too much threat to scum.

I am the D6 lynch. You can hold me to it.

[Pine]

Claimed vig should never make it to LYLO unless there's a flipped SK.

Rushing to lynch them early suggests you have something to fear from a Vig, which is a huge red flag.

This is probably all academic. Red is probably the last scum.

[Pine]

14 alive now, presumably at 11:3. Texcat lynch drops us to 13 going into N3.
Two night kills and a D4 lynch, 10 going into N4, 9:1.
Two NKs and D5 lynch, 7 into N5, 6:1.
Two NKs brings us to 5 on D6, 4:1. Lynch Pine to remove me from LYLO equation. 4 players, 3:1.
One NK, standard 2:1 LYLO.

Protective roles or overlapping kills may change the math, as would scum shooting me.

I'm the D6 lynch. No excuses.

[Pine]

is 1 sk with 5 mafia possible?

Of course. Setting up my own lynch obviates that problem. I don't make it to LYLO.

[Pine]

Here you claim you Ara full vig however:

Please rephrase

[Pine]

I already claimed full vig after RedFlavor whiteflagged

[Pine]

They do. I am not one. I was downplaying my role.

This is not complicated.

[Pine]

I wouldn't. At all. Ever. Period.

Also I am ascetic, and cops usually don't get results on SKs even if I weren't. So it's a wasted Cop action several different ways.

Nice try!

[Pine]

Weird. I am genuinely not a Serial Killer.

I concede that I must be lynched now though.

[Pine]

I'd have shut my fucking trap if I were a SK, but that moves me up to mandatory D4 lynch. I'll self-vote.

[Pine]

Guys it's okay. I'm comfortable with the necessity of being lynched.

Again, it's probably academic.

[Pine]

yes I'm definitely mafia who basically did nothing but bus her buddies the entire time. lol.

That's actually pretty plausible.