Micro 789 - Alternating 9p - Mafia wins

[BuJaber]

You have bad luck

VOTE: rasko

[BuJaber]

This is all fishy to me.

Prediction: one of GL, Lovebird, Raska is scum.

Don't think scum!love would be so eager to TR someone so early. It is weird and attracts too much attention.
But seriously this whole discussion seems irrelevant; why would checking profiles be AI? Why is being bored AI? Why is being anxious to start the game AI?

[BuJaber]

It's not a contradiction. It was just the chronoligical order of my thoughts.

The prediction comes first. Then I narrow it down to Raska/GL but just because I don't think love would do that if scum doesn't mean my scumpool becomes smaller. Just means I'd want love lynched last out of those 3.

[BuJaber]

Just telling you how it is. I'm not trying to get you to agree. You either do or don't but I tell you my thoughts and you tell me yours and so on and we end up with a conversation that leads to scum being caught.

Okay you want me to spill some secrets? Here's a small insight into how I play.
The prediction is based on WIFOM. That's usually how I narrow things down between a pool if there is nothing specific that pings me. (Such as this game). Since everyone is more or less a nullread I come up with a theory that makes sense to narrow down the field and split up the players into categories for further analysis.
In this game the theory is that 3 people all deciding to engage in a discussion -that imo is about something irrelevant or NAI- leads me to think one of them has to be doing it as scum to look like they're engaging with the town. Since one scum is doing this the other is likely to follow a different strategy so they will take a more passive approach. So 1 scum among {rask, GL, lovebird} and 1 scum among the rest.

Now as I follow the thread and engage with people I can see who is more likely to be this scum. Or if something happens or someone says something that makes me change my entire assumption I do that and start fresh. So the lovebird townlean makes it more likely in my mind that the scum is between rask and GL. I didn't really like Rask's openings either (my RVS vote was semi-serious) so I kept my vote there.


Not to mention that mathematically the odds of me being right are quite high in a game this small. So really it's not even an impressive prediction.

[BuJaber]

Disclosure: do not assume I always do this. Do not assume that doing this for me is AI. Do not assume that that is all I do in mafia games. It would be stupid of me to do so and stupid of you to assume so.

[BuJaber]

Why is it so difficult to understand? Please help me. I run into this situation a lot. Is it my wording that is unclear? My english is bad? What is it?


I don't scumread rask. I don't townread rask.

Because of the whole process I explained above I forced myself to choose between rask and GL for whom to vote. I compared the 2 and decided rask is more likely to be the scum. Fact that it is the same person I voted for in RVS because his openings pinged me played a part in helping me decide.

[BuJaber]

Why did my opening ping you however?

I knew it pinged me but now I don't remember why. I may have misread it because I read it again now and nothing is pinging me.

I think my prediction is still solid though. I want to lynch one of you 3 but I promise I won't factor in the opening and my RVS vote. Whoever I find the most scummy today I will vote for from GL/Rask/Love.

[BuJaber]

The way he also threw his vote around onto Not_Mafia just felt really town in my gut? I hate gut reads, it's hard to explain, but it was the lack of pretense that pinged me as town. There's no show to put on, nobody to impress with his vote switch, it's just what it is.

I dislike Lovebird's empty push on Iconeum, though. No reasons or anything? Feels opportunistic.

I'm having trouble squaring these.

Good point.

As of now:
1 scum in {GL, Rask, Love}
1 scum in {NM, Icon} maybe chris.

I know it's a big pool but one of them flips scum it makes it less likely that there's another scum in the same group imo.

[BuJaber]

Not chris.. I meant Major

So 1 scum in {ico, NM and maybe major}

[BuJaber]

Let's try the 2nd group VOTE: NM

[BuJaber]

NM @L-2

[BuJaber]

Not chris.. I meant Major

So 1 scum in {ico, NM and maybe major}

Do you like townread chris or he just doesn't go either pool?

He doesn't go in either pool. He's town by PoE unless I'm wrong on both pools.

@GL - your pool has nothing to do with scumreads. None of you are specifically pinging me but I'm confident that three way convo you guys had was unnatural for TvTvT. One of you was playing along to keep the other 2 distracted and to inflate the thread. I made that pretty clear.
I do a lot of this if x then y sort of stuff and making hypothesies regarding 2 or three players at the same time. I wouldn't know a specific example to quote or link off the top of my head but if you really think that would be helpful I'll go search through my posts. It seems like a waste of time though because even if I showed you the examples how would that help you townread me? You're better off asking someone I've played with before. (NM, Lovebird, christopher, Icon) not all them might agree they've each played different games than me but they're a more believable source than I would be talking about myself. I think chris hasn't seen my town game at all we were scum together once and that's it as far as I recall.

[BuJaber]

He doesn't go in either pool. He's town by PoE unless I'm wrong on both pools.

@GL - your pool has nothing to do with scumreads. None of you are specifically pinging me but I'm confident that three way convo you guys had was unnatural for TvTvT. One of you was playing along to keep the other 2 distracted and to inflate the thread. I made that pretty clear.
I do a lot of this if x then y sort of stuff and making hypothesies regarding 2 or three players at the same time. I wouldn't know a specific example to quote or link off the top of my head but if you really think that would be helpful I'll go search through my posts. It seems like a waste of time though because even if I showed you the examples how would that help you townread me? You're better off asking someone I've played with before. (NM, Lovebird, christopher, Icon) not all them might agree they've each played different games than me but they're a more believable source than I would be talking about myself. I think chris hasn't seen my town game at all we were scum together once and that's it as far as I recall.

If you showed me an example from a town game, that would make it easier for me to chalk this up as a playstyle quirk instead of a scum tactic.

You didn't answer my question about the {Not_Mafia, Iconeum, Major Minor} pool. What do they have in common?
ZZZX also isn't in either of your pools. What do you think of him?

ZZZX is a nullread.

The thing they have in common is I am scumreading them all. But I am more sure that there is scum in the first group than I am of my scumreads on them so there is no way the 2nd group can all be scum. That is why I can only be right about one of them.

[BuJaber]

There is no scum motivation for me to do the things you are scumreading me for Icon.

This is how I think. Every game is a little different but all I've done is describe in full detail my process in this game so far and you're punishing me for it.

You want me to sort rask how? It's not my style to manufacture conversation to get a read. If things come up naturally I will. If something in particular he posts I want to respond to or argue against I will.

At best your problem is simply with my playstyle. And at worst you're scum.

[BuJaber]

One day I'm going to make a wiki section for my page where I link everytime someone made fun of my logic and I was right 100%.

People seem to forget that if they read something as townie and someone else reads the same thing as scummy somehow their opinion is more correct and it's bullshit. People don't always play the same way every game.

I think I'm fucking right and if you want to lynch me for that do so but I'm gonna rub it in your face when we lose and you decided to let your ego rule the game.

I'm sick of people on MS belittling my thought process.

[BuJaber]

I have never played with Z. I don't want to lynch there and by PoE I don't think he's scum but I could see it.
But I don't think chris is scum here. I think he'd be more obvious as scum imo.

[BuJaber]

@GL:

NM: NM's meta is pretty well known throughout the site. However he usually has one or two good posts from time to time that give you a little insight. This game he has nothing. And that copy paste math lesson is very tongue-in-cheek and completely out of character and unnecessary.

Icon: I guess I expect more from Icon as a leader in this group if he is town. I might be wrong about that. But then he seems to be spending a lot of energy, time and effort on my case but everyone else he either gives a weak read on or a small line about and nothing else. It doesn't seem like town tunneling where he just thinks he's right. It seems like an intentional attack and avoiding to talk about anyone else.

Major: not posting much but also he doesn't seem to scumread icon that strongly so it seemed like a weird choice to make for vote. He also took his RVS vote too seriously.

[BuJaber]

Ftr the way that major talks about Rask sounds a lot like scum defending scum. It is the sort of thing people comment on when they know the other is phony. I have each in separate pools so if either of them flips scum the other is more likely to be scum. Though if either flips town it doesn't really change the read on the other one way or another.

[BuJaber]

Shit I missed that chris had a townlean on me.

Okay

1 scum in {NM, chris, Major, Icon}
1 scum in {GL, Rask, Lovebird}.

And since I can't imagine the scum motivation to bus chris here if chris flips scum icon is automatically cleared no matter what (ie even if all 3 of GL, Rask, Love are town and I'd be forced to find the 2nd scum elsewhere wouldn't think Icon is scum if chris flips scum).

[BuJaber]

I saw his comments that my posts are NAI but did not see that he also claimed I was a townlean. The townlean isn't the problem alone but he hasn't given any reason for me to move from null to townlean as you pointed out.

But my list is very good for associations. Say rask flips scum for example. It clears Love and GL for me (until lylo at least).
Say NM flips scum. I'd focus less on you and more at the GL/Love/Rask trio.

[BuJaber]

Thank you chris for the explanation.

To townread you I'll need more yet. But since you explained there isn't a specific reason to scumread you so you're back to town by PoE.

What I do know is that if icon flips scum it clears you for sure because no way that was a distancing/bussing post by Icon.

[BuJaber]

But to be honest as I said previously I think I'd catch you if you were scum. I'm more inclined to sense it if you're scum given that that's the only meta I know.

[BuJaber]

I get that people might disagree with it as a strategy but it's natural for me.
I am not locking myself to these people as only possible scum. What these lists do for me is make me split up the group of players into smaller categories.

When new posts or information come in I reevaluate.

But as long as I believe that the original reason for the grouping is still valid I stick to that grouping until new evidence comes that reinforces or invalidates it.

For example for the GL, Rask, love pool I strongly believe I am right for thinking that discussion was intentionally encouraged by scum. So until they flip or I can confidently townread all three that pool will remain as it is.

[BuJaber]

Icon you're not getting it. I don't know any other way to explain it.

[BuJaber]

Ah okay

But why is that bad though? The way I've set it up as soon as anyone flips scum I'll have like 3 townreads by elimination.

This game is not typical as you can see. Playerbase is content at being more on the quiet side. Nobody has done anything obviously scummy. Nobody has done anything obviously townie. Would you really be happier if I had like 1 townread 1 scumread and the rest all nulls?
Because this my way is a lot more useful imo.

[BuJaber]

And as for NM. From my pov the first pool is riskier to lynch from since my theory is based on gamestate theory rather than on the players themselves so I prefer to try to sort them a little later.

So it's between you, NM, MM, chris. Who for the record is back to a townlean (I mean he might be buddying me but I'd like to think I'd catch on to that if he continues).

NM is the stronger scumread among them.
MM I've never played with before. There is a degree of effort in his posts but he went back to not posting so it's meh.
I would vote for you but then I'd be lonely. Also there's scum motivation in trying to discredit me but at the same time you do seem to be dragging this interrogation out in a way which doesn't seem worth it for scum. I would think scum would have ignored me and taken advantage of this dead town but who knows. It really is way too quiet here.

[BuJaber]

Kmd you want to talk?

Tfw mod posts more than players.

[BuJaber]

For the first time since I joined MS I feel like I have a solid read on NM. Sheep me. He's scum.

@Icon- you've talked a lot to me and about me; do you have any other reads?

[BuJaber]

Would you respond any differently if you were?

[BuJaber]

The townlean was scummy from chris for the reason Ico pointed out. He kept saying I'm null then sort of jumped to townlean without giving a reason. It's not the read I find scummy it's the change and lack of reason. If he had saud scumlean it would be just as scummy.

The rest is a matter of interpretation. It sounds ike you can see me being town just like you can see me beimg scum since you're interpretted me correctly and agree on my major read even if for different reasons.

[BuJaber]

@GL - I'm not expecting him to have a thorough case to be honest and his explanation was enough to put someone from a null to a townlean. I mean I think I'm being clearly townie here but given your and Icon's reactions that doesn't seem to be the case.

@Icon - given the fickle nature of my chris read and that after his explanation I'm putting him on a townlean myself it isn't suspicious that he's on NM wagon. Also NM typically attracts votes from both scum and town it wouldn't be AI by itself. Thing with NM is, as I'm starting to notice, there seem to be subtle differences in his playstyle. Regardless of how apathetic he seems he tends to still be interested in winning. So when he's town he has his occasional bursts of confident reads and disagreeing with people who have an opposing opinion. There's none of that here. As scum he has bursts of activity when there is something to gain like a legitimate wagon on a strong townie or when it's near mylo for example and town is confused he'll encourage the confusion. I get the feeling he also enjoys being scumread so when he's scum he's quite cheeky about it. And I really really hate that wallpost about some physics concept or whatever it was (i didn't read it).

[BuJaber]

Anyway good let's lynch NM or MM

[BuJaber]

You're so helpful thank you.

This is more fun than google: what's that pokemon called? What generation? And what does Milk drink do?

[BuJaber]

Thank you chris for the explanation.

To townread you I'll need more yet. But since you explained there isn't a specific reason to scumread you so you're back to town by PoE.

What I do know is that if icon flips scum it clears you for sure because no way that was a distancing/bussing post by Icon.

Bu which post please?

160
Doesn't seem like bussing to me. Why would he need to distance himself so early without pressure on chris by noticing and pointing at an inconsistency. It forces us to look at chris' posts more carefully. A bus/distancing vote tries to sever ties with the player but the point isn't to actually get them lynched. More scrutiny on chris does not help Ico if chris is his partner. Therefore I don't think they are scum together.

I find it a little strange you are so against the NM lynch. You admit yourself nobody can read NM with much consistency. Your scumreads are voting there but so am I.

ZZ and chris need to post more.

@mod- VC please

[BuJaber]

@mod nevermind mod I'm a lazy sob.

[BuJaber]

Not to mention cheeky says she has a read on NM but then tries to back it up by saying scum are pushing that wagon. She doesn't sound confident about NM which begs the question why claim you have a read on him at all.

[BuJaber]

And as for NM. From my pov the first pool is riskier to lynch from since my theory is based on gamestate theory rather than on the players themselves so I prefer to try to sort them a little later.

So it's between you, NM, MM, chris. Who for the record is back to a townlean (I mean he might be buddying me but I'd like to think I'd catch on to that if he continues).

NM is the stronger scumread among them.
MM I've never played with before. There is a degree of effort in his posts but he went back to not posting so it's meh.
I would vote for you but then I'd be lonely. Also there's scum motivation in trying to discredit me but at the same time you do seem to be dragging this interrogation out in a way which doesn't seem worth it for scum. I would think scum would have ignored me and taken advantage of this dead town but who knows. It really is way too quiet here.

@GL - I'm not expecting him to have a thorough case to be honest and his explanation was enough to put someone from a null to a townlean. I mean I think I'm being clearly townie here but given your and Icon's reactions that doesn't seem to be the case.

@Icon - given the fickle nature of my chris read and that after his explanation I'm putting him on a townlean myself it isn't suspicious that he's on NM wagon. Also NM typically attracts votes from both scum and town it wouldn't be AI by itself. Thing with NM is, as I'm starting to notice, there seem to be subtle differences in his playstyle. Regardless of how apathetic he seems he tends to still be interested in winning. So when he's town he has his occasional bursts of confident reads and disagreeing with people who have an opposing opinion. There's none of that here. As scum he has bursts of activity when there is something to gain like a legitimate wagon on a strong townie or when it's near mylo for example and town is confused he'll encourage the confusion. I get the feeling he also enjoys being scumread so when he's scum he's quite cheeky about it. And I really really hate that wallpost about some physics concept or whatever it was (i didn't read it).

@cheeky - I explained my NM read here.

NM - cheeky clearly has played with you before; how strong is his scum game?

I think GL is scum. His push on me is bs and why anyone would defend Icon in this game is beyond me. He is a far better town player than this. He can't be defending him from a town pov. He must either know he's town or he is scum with him.

Cheeky - I admit chris might be scum but I don't think so. We lost as scum together before. I think he would sort me more confidently as scum and also I think he'd get caught as scum here. Maybe he isn't playing great here yet but for now I'm not entertaining the idea he's scum.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: GL

[BuJaber]

I think GL is scum. His push on me is bs and why anyone would defend Icon in this game is beyond me. He is a far better town player than this. He can't be defending him from a town pov. He must either know he's town or he is scum with him.

I thought you were townreading ico?

That was very early on. I've had him in one of my scum pools for a while now.

Are you even paying attention?

Okay forget my 2nd pool I'll deal with those later. I want to lynch one of {rask, GL, lovebird} like I wanted at the start. And I no longer TR love because last time he was scum in a game with me he wasn't super active and left town to implode while his partner did a lot of pot stirring.

[BuJaber]

Rask so do you actually townread GL/love or are you putting them there because you don't want to risk lynching a 'strong' townie?

[BuJaber]

Rask said he was strongish I was commenting on that.
I wanted to know if he actually TR's him.

And you think what you want but defending Icon in this game is scummy. Icon himself should admit this is not his best work if he's town and if he's scum he should acceot that he got caught.

[BuJaber]

Would you lynch lovebird? The only person I might be willing to vote alongside you. Otherwise unless my reads or yours change I won't vote anyone you vote for.

[BuJaber]

Lovebird's opening is significantly more townie than now but really I'm getting a feeling he is following his gameplan in the arsonist game micro we recently finished. He was arso I was firefighter.

Also most of the reasons I townread him earlier were gut based and WIFOMy I realized.

And I am still so confident in my theory of 1 scum between Rask/GL/love. So I'm flip flopping between you.

[BuJaber]

You might be on to something here

And frankly I don't see much scum motivation in bussimg here so if anything this eliminates a cheeky/chris team.

[BuJaber]

Like yeah there's 'towncred' motivation but killing a partner day 1 is a bad idea you don't do it unless it can't be stopped.

[BuJaber]

No it's more an afterthought I'm entertaining.

There are too many possibilities at the moment for possible scum teams to pinpoint them with significant accuracy. I really want to find the scum in my first pool first.

[BuJaber]

Maybe but considering there are reasons to scumread everyone else unfortunately, so lynching within this pool is at worst a 33% chance instead of 20%.

I was pretty set on lynching NM but cheeky is strongly townreading him and cheeky is currently a townlean all things considered so it gives me pause.

Icon works as a potential lynchee that is not one of you 3 but if icon is town then I lynch what could potentially be a strong townie. (He seems like scum at the moment though so I am inclined to join a wagon there but I might not start one)

If it comes down to either zz or chris I feel it'd be a coin flip honestly. I highly doubt both are scum. So best case scenario it's 50%. That's assuming that not both scum are 'active' players in the game. Also if love does flip scum it also makes it unlikely that either Zz or chris are scum because a lurker scum strategy usuallu requires a partner that is active. Unless they both just give up.

[BuJaber]

The above is a response to 359 but it not only addressed to rask

[BuJaber]

Strongest by post is cheeky.
Strongest by gut / some poe is ZZ.

And then chris was a townlean before cheeky replaced in but that's more ego that I would see right through him if he were scum.

[BuJaber]

You are what would be 'most improved' on my list. You went from someone I was almost sure was scum but I'm close to removing you from the first pool and just lynching one of {GL/love} and then come up with assoc. For whichever flips scum.

[BuJaber]

Those posts are all it took to convince you?

You chose some of his weaker/easier-to-make-as-scum posts as evidence for your townread. I agree with the conclusion but those posts are bad examples.

[BuJaber]

Zzzz this game needs a lynch

Sheep me if you're town

[BuJaber]

Doesn't matter actually..sheep me if scum too

[BuJaber]

VOTE: love

I think this is her scumgame.

[BuJaber]

She's mostly been lurking and her reads are soft and non-commital.

There's some posts that just sound like shading for the point of shading.

[BuJaber]

Vote Count

Raskolnikov - 3 - ZZZX, CheekyTeeky, Not_Mafia
Not_Mafia - 2 - Raskolnikov, christopher
BuJaber - 1 - GreenLiquid
Iconeum - 1 - Lovebird
Lovebird - 1- BuJaber
Christopher - 1 - Iconeum

Not Voting - none.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is April 2 at 1pm EST

My current vote is on Lovebird

That's what it says

[BuJaber]

Real quick:

Rask/cheeky - townread
Gl, chris, Zz - null
Icon - scumlean
NM, Love - scumread

But as far as the lynch order would go it'd be something like this
Love > GL > NM > Icon

[BuJaber]

Back from vla.

I am never voting rask now. If you dug that deep into me just to pocket me while I was vla and potentially a day 1 lynch then fucking bravo but you just have to be town rask. So in my mind one of love/GL is guaranteed scum.

GL makes me nervous in general but Love seems more likely to flip scum by play.

Also love/ico makes a lot of sense I reckon but I won't give it too much though before we see a flip.

If you have specific questions cheeky I'll do my best to answer.

[BuJaber]

What doesn't make sense love?
I had love, GL, Rask in one pool. Rask is now a confident townread so the pool shrunk to love and GL.

You and icon is just a theory I'm playing with don't see the need to think about it or talk about it more right now until one of you actually flips scum first.

Okay guys since everyoneis flip flopping around we just gotta lynch someone and move on.

If I get to L-1 I'll hammer. We need to find a wagon everybody agrees on.

People they want lynched (correct me if wrong)
Ico: buj/ love
Buj: love / GL
Cheeky: rask / buj / love
Rask: buj / nm / love / icon
Zzzx: need an update
Chris: need an update
NM: love?
GL: need an update
Love: not clear.. rask? Buj?


Seems like love is the most repeated name followed by me. Let's just lynch one of us.

[BuJaber]

Y'all are clueless. Just promise me if we don't lose before lylo then cheeky becomes policy lynch at lylo. I refuse to let that slot win if scum because MM did absolutely nothing.

If rask is scum then I'm sorry he fooled me. He's trying to solve the game and he defended me hard which makes no sense for scum.

Honestly cheeky and Icon can't both be town this is rediculous. How many people are you two going to shade? No town is this bad. Someone is sabotaging our attempts to lynch scum.

If cheeky and NM are literally the scumteam that would be hilarious.

[BuJaber]

I think it would be wise to open this thread at end game for discussion. I think we fucked up badly somewhere and I for one want to know why. Imo this is my best D1 considering this game was in the muck and I had to figure out who might be scum based on RVS only pretty much but I am the one getting lynched.

[BuJaber]

So to summarize my conclusions:

Scum based on meta: love, NM. Also somewhat scummy by play.

Scum based on irrelevant discussion in the early game: love OR GL. (Unlikely both together and rask is now a TR so out of this pool).

Scum because of how fucked the game state is: cheeky OR Icon (i'd be very very very suprised if they were both scum.. weird team). Also MM slot was terrible before replace. Maybe cheeky is very good at scum replacing thus my gut townlean.

ZZZX, Chris - true null. They could literally be anything and regardless of alignment this level of apathy is bad for town. They are at least partially responsible for this game state even if town lurking unintentionally. I'd rather lynch someone from above for day 1 though because this would be a total coin flip and would give us no info to go on if we lynch one and they flip town.

I don't care about your opinions anymore. If none of the players here can understand my perspective in 22 pages then nothing will change. My death is more convincing.

And yes the conclusion is from my POV love is ovjectively and subjectively the best lynch.

I don't want to get lynched but I also don't care. What we need is town consensus and if town consensus is for me to get lynched then that is the role I play in this game.

[BuJaber]

Now NM is a no info lynch? You didn't want NM because you said you were sure this is his town meta.

Chris is barely posting. He doesn't sound confident about anything. I have never seen him play town but it makes sense for town to be not confident much especially when they are not even catching up and posting. He could definitely also be scum considering he himself doesn't think he is good at playing scum so he comes off as awkward and nervous. So I don't know how to decide. His posts in the early game gave me a gut townfeel but I don't even know why they did anymore and logic says he can be either alignment. But I can't see anything that tells me definitely scum like some of you can.

I literally explained my reads and lynch preference just now I don't get what you're asking me.

Most confident
1. Love
2. GL if love is town
3. Cheeky or icon but not both icon more likely
4. NM
5. Chris / zzz

There's no big town 'case' for rask. That defence of me just felt like it came out of nowhere as scum. Like do you really think he's that afraid of getting scumread when I flip town that he didn't want me lynched? Because you guys could have easily lynched me while I was VLA. Also he has posted quite a lot and seems to be engaging in conversation and trying to understand everyone's pov. It doesn't come off as just fishing for info or posturing because he is giving us his own reads and opinions. I don't think his flip flopping is necessary a towntell but it is definitely not a scumtell in this game.

[BuJaber]

Like you guys are harping on rask and I for being invonsistent. (Don't know about rask but I have been very consistent actually if you read my posts). But cheeky has some subtle inconsistencies that are just weird. Like I keep townreading cheeky but then she posts stuff like 558 and 568 and it makes me doubt her again and remind myself that MM pinged me.

Pedit - read what again. That was how you entered the game. You were like why are we voting NM.. NM is town. Is that not what happened?

[BuJaber]

Okay guys look at cheeky's ISO and search for 'ico'.

Been shading/scumreading the slot for so long but this is the first she actually votes for Ico.

Maybe ico/cheeky can be a scumteam after all. It's the sort of fake pushing that you do when you know your partner won't get lynched but in case they are you can bus without looking suspicious.

And fine cheeky I didn't remember all the details of your NM read. I'll drop that point.

[BuJaber]

Not changing my lynch order yet though. Food for thought for day 2.

[BuJaber]

Ehh.. you are more likely to be scum with NM/love.. you are right about that. I just don't think it's impossible you're partners with Ico anymore.

I mean hammering is a double edged sword for scum. If you replaced in and hammered NM how bad would you have looked?

[BuJaber]

I didn't say it was my best town game. I said this is my best town Day 1 because this was and to some extent is a dead game and what I've done in this game seems very productive to me. I really think 1 maybe two flips is enough to figure out the entire game now.

I would vote for you but I don't think you are the best day 1 lynch. I'd still much rather go for love or GL and NM as second choice.

Besides wagoning ico is more interesting for guaging reactions and I would have done that if I thought we had enough time but this day needs to end and I'm not ready to hammer either you or Icon without seeing some reactions and back and forth as your wagons build so we'll have to wait until another day for that. Mod has extended this day enough. Love is someone I feel comfortable hammering. I'm a man of my word I'd hammer myself if people feel compelled to.vote for me. I'm also okay with hammering GL and NM. I am not comfortable hammering anyone else so that is determining who i am willing to vote for today.

[BuJaber]

Like if I am willing to hammer someone today I am willing to vote for them. If I am not ready to hammer a hypothetical wagon I am not williny to join it either today.

[BuJaber]

Okay let's go. Something is a little off with that hammer.

VOTE: NM

[BuJaber]

If it were a hammer and if not this is me moving away

[BuJaber]

NM right now do you have confident town or scumreads?

[BuJaber]

Okay if he is scum is there anyone who CANNOT be his partner in your opinion?

[BuJaber]

Does that mean if cheeky flips scum that would make you townread rask?

[BuJaber]

I can't wait for you to post one by one lol.. here are questions that you can answer with 1 word/name answers if you are so inclined:

1. If love flips scum who would be your first choice for her partner?
2. If icon is scum who do you think he'd want dead at night?
3. If icon flips scum how many people would you townread as a result? Who?
4. Can zzz and chris both be scum ?
5. If rask flips town who would you scumread?

[BuJaber]

I am townreading him. I gave you the reasons.

I'm starting to think both scum are active and messing with us.

@mod - please replace both zz and chris

[BuJaber]

If active players join those slots town will win. Scum are gaining too much advantage with 2 people lurking plus NM in the game.

I don't like the fact that GL was the one to explain an alleged gambit not cheeky herself. That vote was scummy as hell coming from her so I wanted to pause the wagon.

[BuJaber]

I don't like the fact that GL was the one to explain an alleged gambit not cheeky herself.

Explain how that AI for both of us please.

It might not be but I don't like it even if GL is town. How does he know it was a gambit? If he's wrong he gives scum!you a plausible excuse that you didn't have to work for at all.

Also I find it weird anyone can townread you based on that vote. You are townreading love hard and then join a wagon that could easily be hammered?

[BuJaber]

Come back to voting NM.

I'm like 70% sure he's scum but if he isn't then it is better to lynch now instead of later where we have to be sure and someone like NM doesn't get any easier to sort. Also I think if he flips town it is probably an indication that cheeky is town because I don't think she would have tried so hard to stop the NM wagon if she is scum and NM is town.

[BuJaber]

If icon is scum he will hammer town NM.
If icon is town I think he agrees to this lynch.
Either way we get his vote.

GL is giving me scum vibes because I don't think we are agreeing on any read. Which seems unlikely if he's town. But he and zz I've never played with at all (nor have I played with cheeky but she actually posts) so it makes it harder to get any sort of opinion on them without further posting and/or flips.

[BuJaber]

Not necessarily hammer but I mean he would want a townie mislynch.

The only scenario I haven't thought of is both nm and icon are scum but I don't think that is ever the case here.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: GL

Or cheeky. Or both. If gl not cheeky his partner is chris/zz. If cheeky not gl her partner is love.

Icon please show me you're town this game. I expect 'more' from town icon. You were obvious town to everyone in our giygas curse game I am not getting that here.

[BuJaber]

If NM had answered my questions with anything other than 'maybe' I probably would have unvoted. I tried to squeeze something out of him. He's too hard to sort with his playstyle and my gut told me scum this game. The fact that cheeky was so sure gives me pause. You know what let's shoot cheely first. I think GL was too inactive. He can't be partners with another lurker.

VOTE: cheeky

Also if anybody got a guilty .. claim please. We can win this but we have to catch all scum today.

[BuJaber]

You knew NM was scum.
You pushed for rask lynch.
You derailed lovebird's lynch.

And now you vote me lol.

[BuJaber]

Your predecessor put you in a tough place.

[BuJaber]

Oh and you keep calling ico scummy but not voting if I recall.

[BuJaber]

I would vote for GL too if you want to vote there. If he's town he hasn't helped at all. He's just been calling me scummy all game and nothing else of note.

[BuJaber]

Actually lol look at your posts and votes. It appears your lynch pool day 1 (some inconsistency but it basicallt boiled down to these) was ico/zz/chris/rask.

Rask dies and suddenly you want to vote me? What happened to your sr on ico zz and chris?

[BuJaber]

Fuck this game maybe we should just policy lynch the 2 lurker slots. It's their fault we have this much confusion.

[BuJaber]

You knew NM was scum.
You pushed for rask lynch.
You derailed lovebird's lynch.

And now you vote me lol.

No.
Yes.
No.

Let me try.

You knew NM was town.
You killed Rask to frame me.
You are all over the place with your reads.

I mean how dumb would I be to kill a townie I was pushing all day as scum. First it takes away my push for today and second it obviously leads back to me. The fact that you are using that as a reason to lynch me, ignoring all my other content, signals to me that you are pushing an agenda here.

Pretty happy with my vote. BuJaber's entrance was overeager, awkward and bad. I would've kept pushing Ico but this feels better today.

Why would I want either of you dead? Neither of you were a threat to me. You sometimes had me as suspicious but mosy townread me. And rask pushed me only a little bit at the beginning and never again and in fact sheeped my vote. He was my best ally. And I have nothing to gain by getting you lynched if I were scum. You were pushing other people and if I didn't vote for you you would be voting somewhere else right now.

You defended NM. Maybe it was for suspecting players voting for him or whatever but unless I am going crazy you definitely said NM is town here based on meta read or something to that effect. Your refusal to acknowledge that or at least understand where I am getting this idea from is unacceptable at best and suspicious as hell at worst.

Your push against Ico was half-hearted throughout the idea. There is a clear difference between how you went about voting for rask for example and Ico. It worries me that you have a scumread for so long who isn't changing your mind about him and you not really going after him. You voted him exactly once after it was clear day is almost over and ico was never gonna be a day 1 wagon.

[BuJaber]

And you didn't answer the question.. what happened to your sr of ico zz and chris?

[BuJaber]

I will get lynched and town will lose.

I'm done. Having lurkers has killed our chances. The lurkers are either town so letting scum command the game or they're scum letting town implode.

@GL - town wouldn't have known NM was town. And you are talking about me in every post. Do you not have any other good reads? You are definitely tunneling but you are probably just scum. With rask flipping town it's 50-50 between you and love. Plus some of cheeky's other actions and the slot are scummy.and as you saw she picks and chooses what she responds to.

If she convinces me she's town Im voting GL.

[BuJaber]

685 & 686

[BuJaber]

Who has played with GL before? I want to know if he is likely to tunnel this hard as town. If so I am definiteky voting love. But to give credit where credit is due I've only seen him play as scum so his point he made to korina applies to me here. It looks remarkably similar to what he is doing here. Rask flipping town and the way they are playing gurantees one of those is scum. Since GL doesn't post enough I have to rely on meta somewhat.

Love I wasn't defending myself I was blaming NM.

Cheeky I just hope you're having fun.

I feel like ZZ should have replaced regardless of alignment. I've never played with him before and I can't read him based on no posts. His reason for absence is a valid one and I don't think people lie about shit like that. It would be immoral to anyway. So unfortunately his lurking seems NAI.

[BuJaber]

Oh and obviously when I said "You knew NM was scum" I meant town. Seems obvious that was a mistake. Suspiciously you commented on that.

[BuJaber]

BTW the scum game I am talking about korina was love's scum partner.
And now korina has talked about the same game.

One of them is definitely scum. If korina is town and agrees with me that his own partner in that game is playing the same way in this game this is quite strong meta evidence against love.

If korina is scum then he is trying to kill town love.

It doesn't make sense to do it if they were both scum especially given love's reaction.

VOTE: love

[BuJaber]

So small chance love flips town we definitely lynch korina.

If love is scum I'd say zz or cheeky is the partners.
If korina is the scum I'd say GL or Ico is the partner.

[BuJaber]

We can afford exactly 1 mislynch. That is assuming worst case scenario where cop dies before giving result and doc never saves anyone.

[BuJaber]

If for some reason Korina is trying to pull off a spectacular bussing tactic then at lylo you lynch him as a policy just to avoid this (Unless one of the other two players are guiltied obviously).
Because if love is scum I can't imagine korina being kept alive by scum so he would have to be the scum.

[BuJaber]

Your predecessor put you in a tough place.

Major minor? Explain.

He was a scummy lurker.

[BuJaber]

Yeah I'm happy with this.

100% chance of finding scum between korina/love.
99% chance of finding the 2nd scum between GL/cheeky/Ico. There is a chance zz is scum but that seems far too low now that I thought about this some more.

In a game this small where a player like me (usually I'm a low-average poster in games) is one of the top posters there is no way 3 townies out of a pool of 5 townies all find me scummy.

Like this isn't my first game on MS I know for a fact my playstyle/meta is not completely different than everyone on the site. People can and have townread me correctly.

[BuJaber]

Hmmm.. just read love's ISO. Inconclusive. I thought it'd make me more sure she was scum but no I feel just as unsure. There's a chance lynching korina first is better. But definitely one of them is scum. (Both if like I said korina is attempting a weird gambit)

I never do this cold meta stuff but I think I have to...
Love can you link me a few recent town games?
Also can you tell me why you are town here in your own words?

[BuJaber]

Korina -

I explained multiple times in day 1 why I thought NM was scummy. I know you just replaced in but bringing up already asked and answered stuff is unhelpful and annoying.

Me telling rask to sheep me as scum was my ego. I believed that if NM flipped I will be able to solve the game. Also I couldn't say this while he was alive but through his posts and responses to my questions I eliminated the possibility of him being a PR. So when I said 70% chance he flips scum the 30% was he flips VT which was worth the risk.

For the record yes I don't think you are bussing. I think only one of you/love is scum. I just like to think about hypothetical lylo situations. It helps me.

[BuJaber]

I am voting love or korina today. So yes love is fine. My vote's already there.

[BuJaber]

If love flips scum even GL would have to townread me so actually yes this makes a lot of sense why this lynch hasn't gone through.

If she were town she'd have been lynched already; especially now that korina is pushing for her lynch. Means scum gets a mislynch and makes both korina and I look bad. Love definitely makes sense.

[BuJaber]

Zz is a bad lynch today because I don't think there's any chance both korina/love are town. So since one of them has to be scum let's find out who and kill them then determine if zz works as their partner.

[BuJaber]

But like I said I doubt zz would be scum with korina so I'd only look at zz if love flips scum.

[BuJaber]

So korina replaced in and backed my meta read on love without any prompting for me.

So unless you think the scumteam is literally me and korina; then korina is either backing up that meta read to get town love mislynched, OR he is town..

If love flips town it incriminates korina.

That is one side of it.

The other side is korina replaced chris.
Cheeky has pushed and scumread chris pretty much all game. That makes her unlikely to be scum with korina. So if love flips town cheeky is probably town because she scum would have no motivation to not want town love dead. And so if cheeky is town chris slot is probably scum based on cheeky's read. Even I who initially townread chris did question that read as the game progressed.

So basically it boils down to this
There are several people scumreading chris slot (cheeky, you, possibly love and I think I had him as null before korina replaced)
There are several people scumreading love (me, korina, possibly you?)

Since I am not scum so I can't be korina's partner, and korina and love can't both be scum, and korina and cheeky can't both be scum by association, that means at least 2 townies are scumreading each of these slots.

This is getting convuluted and I'm not sure I'm making much sense but I'm pretty sure we've reached a situation which mathematically guarantees one scum in love/korina.

I think it's most likely love. Korina would only be scum if love flips town.

[BuJaber]

Buj, my metaread on Love is independent of yours. I quickly skimmed Lovebird n1 after replacing in because I thought the lack of posts was odd.

When I made that post, I saw you had posted that too.
I still don’t like Love’s semi-fluff ISO.

That's what I mean. So it's more believable. From everyone else's POV one of us at least has to be town and genuinenly scumreading love. And you having the same read independently makes me feel more confident about it. But even if you were scum trying to get us to mislynch love you'll be caught anyway.

[BuJaber]

Did everyone just forget this game or what?

[BuJaber]

Korina over love is bad.
It's love first then korina if love flips town.

Love is more likely scum and is the better flip for analysis.

If I die look at this post:

So small chance love flips town we definitely lynch korina.

If love is scum I'd say zz or cheeky is the partners.
If korina is the scum I'd say GL or Ico is the partner.

[BuJaber]

Icon who does zz make sense with as a partner.

In my opinion it could be GL, or you, or cheeky or possibly love.
That is too many people. Most of them in your town pool
And if you agree that love could be his partner then lynch love first.

Also lol at GL being the strongest townread.

Maybe we should lynch Ico.. everytime I start to townread him he posts some weird ass post that makes me question him again.

It would make love and cheeky happy at least coz I don't think ico makes sense with love as a team.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: Icon

I am going to give love a chance. Seems his posts are generally small and somewhat NAI in general. Not clearing him but I think an Icon flip is gonna be helpful here.

And I realized the love/korina not town together kind of assumes ico is town. If ico is scum there's a huge flaw.

Just townreading GL is scummy as all hell. Ico is also a strong townplayer who is difficult to scumread and usually doesn't let inconsistencies and scummy posts fly without scrutiny. He seems rather lazy here. Also he keeps getting cold feet around wagons. He didn't vote for NM. IN FACT he has been tunneling on icon all game and now that we have a real shot at lynching love he's focusing on zzz instead? Why?
If you notice a few posts earliet he said if love flips scum I would be conftown. So we have a wagon that all game long he has been pushing AND if it flips scum it clears another player from his POV AND he doesn't like the counter wagons (me, korina, cheeky earlier) but he still isn't happy lynching Lovebird?

Yeeeeaaah I haven't been noticing this before but this is looking like damning evidence.

Icon is scum. GL is likely his partner. If not GL it's Korina or possibly cheeky.

But it's probably GL.

Icon/GL scumteam. I was right from the very fucking start with my two scumpools.

If icon is town we lynch love. If love is also town we fucking lose because fuck this game and fuck lurkers.

Pedit - zzz is a bad lynch why is he most likely to flip scum. He is scummy but not most likely to flip scum. Other people are also scummy. And you've been changing your mind too many times with me.
Like even now you say it's probably zz/love but choosing to lynch zz. You say I could flip scum but if love is scum I am conftown. From your pov love is the best lynch..You not wanting to now is crazy.

And what evidence is there than GL is town. I can only personally clear GL by PoE depending on who flips scum. Nothing in his play is particularly townie.

[BuJaber]

If icon is scum and love is town... why stop his wagon.. .. scared of how it looks to tunnel on town?

Man icon you are hurting my brain this game.
No I don't care you're playing really strangely. You need to go. Zz is a terrible lynch. Heck icon might be your partner and you're distancing. You made a few too many posts and now I've caught you. You shoulda kept your vote on love and not said anything lol

Pedit - looking at options? Not a good enough excuse. Not from you not when there is a wagon from love that you are pushing all game. Not when you say you don't want to do assoc analysis and yet you put zz and love together but are still considering lynching zz instead of love.
Like thinking about other options isn't scummy but the way you're doing it doesn't make sense.

[BuJaber]

Heck

icon

LOVE might be your partner and you're distancing.

[BuJaber]

There is no world in which we lynch Korina over Love today.
There's a chance zzzzx is getting lynched over Love.

I really don't know anymore for the moment.
We need zzzzx and his big post in here.

Reading back my Love case isn't as strong as I thought it was.

Gonna make an overview here soon.

Alive:
1. BuJaber
2. Christopher Korina
3. ZZZX
4. GreenLiquid
5. Major Minor CheekyTeeky
6. Lovebird
7. Iconeum

Town

GL

Townlean

Bujaber
Cheeky

Scum in varying degrees

Love
zzzzzx
korina

If i look at this list, I think I'm more comfortable lynching zzzzx depending on his catchup post.


fp'd a bunch by Love

How is that not you thinking about switching to zz instead of love?
Where is the misrep?

[BuJaber]

Yeah yeah yeah whatever scum have wanted to lynch me all game. You are not getting NK'd lol you are scum's wet dream if you are town.

[BuJaber]

But you are considering lynching zz over love is what I'm saying. And that is super suspicious

[BuJaber]

We haven't managed to get love to L-1 because people haven't posted. Nobody actually gave good enough reasons to not wamt her lynched.

Only love defended herself about the scum meta argument. And frankly she might have a point. Seems the post style is NAI. But only she would know this. The other people I would expect to give actual reasons why they don't want love dead.

Okay let me explain the other point a bit more clearly:
It's fine to consider zz scummy. Even think about his lynch. But not when you still consider love scummy.
But why, you might ask?
Because zz has not been active. He has not been talking much. He is a bad flip right now when we are approaching mylo. Zzz has too many potential scum partners in this game. Love does not. You yourself has already suggested some post-love-flip reads.
By looking at zz as a potential counter lynch without having anything actually changing your mind about love being scummy you are not playing in pro-town way.

I admit I might be getting a bit paranoid about ignoring you and GL lately when you both have pinged me in the early game. Nobody likes to be duped. So I'll promise you I'll take a break now and look at this game later. Please read what I said about you picking zz over love again.
And please explain your townread on GL.

[BuJaber]

How can you even say it's fine that i'm thinking of zzzx lynch, when THAT IS THE REASON YOU ARE VOTING ME

It's conditional. It's fine if you also townread love. It's not fine if you are scumreading love.

The explanation was right there in the same paragraph. Why read one sentence but not the next?

[BuJaber]

Okay since you provided the posts that make my owm case...

Most of GL's posts aren't 'sorting'. He comes up with reasons why player x is scum. Then comes up with reason why player x might not be scum or why he might be wrong.

He makes a case on NM. Then just doesn't like the wagon anymore because apprently too many people are voting him.

He attempts to sort rask, icon, cheeky, love, zz and never lands on anything conclusive or confident about them.

Literally the only person he has consistently actually built a case against and openly voted for and openly pushed for is me and I know I am town. From my pov GL has an agenda against me and he is failing to confidently push against anyone else in fear he is wrong.

He has an issue with people not being able to sort or read people but he himself has displayed trouble in doing so.
He called me out for having a lot of null reads in day 1,(When I actually made some effort to do something about it with my scum pools) but he himself has been unsure of the majority of his reads.

In more than one post that you linked his conclusion is "I find some things scummy but really it might just be their playstyle"

He has basically come off as being non commital on anything.
Again except for me. But maybe because I haven't yet actually been in danger of getting lynched. And consodering I am town scum him would happily commit to my lynch.

This one is a little tin foily but I am also beginning to suspect that scum didn't kill me just so GL would be able to continue his push against me.


Anyway look like I calculated earlier (feels like ages ago). Our worst case scenario gives us 1 mislynch. So we can definitely afford to mislynch today.

So look I am still good with a love lynch.
Icon is pinging me.
GL I'm always had a scumlean on.
Cheeky has had a significant drop in activity not to mention I have not always been comfortable she is town plus MM slot.
I can see korina being scum but really it seems contingent on love flipping town so not gonna lynch there.

So love and Ico are my top picks for lynch. Either/or at this point.
Followed by GL.
Followed by cheeky. But I don't think she is the best flip for associations right now. So this would be sub optimal.

The rest I don't think are good lynches today.

[BuJaber]

Why do you think lurking is so good for scum?

Even if a townie lurks it fucks with town's ability to sort properly.

When you have a game with only 2-3 people active at any given moment town are just screwed.
Naturally people who are active tend to become the only suspects and that's how town implodes or becomes confused.

I feel like I used the f word too much this game. But the game really is frustrating.
All I can say is if you are town just rely on your instincts. Even if things don't make that much sense to you trust your gut and your earlier reads.

The early reads were not tainted by as much confusion as the later reads.

You are probably easier to sort than love if you are kept alive tbh.
Let's lynch love and move on from there.

I promise you if I am alive I won't let zz get away with the lurking. Neither him nor cheeky.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: love

[BuJaber]

Nice green so only cheeky is safe from your finger of suspicion.

Look at my ISO. The only person I make sense as a team with would be ZZZ and korina (chris) but you actually think I can't be a team with chris. So that leaves zz who can be scum with literally anyone.

Really think about it man. I am not scum.

[BuJaber]

No cheeky zzz lynch is terrible today as I explained to Ico.

@GL - okay maybe past 2 pages or so me and Ico interaction could indicate SvS. But look at the early game interactions. We have fought too much and too often for us to be a scum team together.

Lynch love. Love is scum. Cheeky probably scum.

[BuJaber]

So korina replaced in and backed my meta read on love without any prompting for me.

So unless you think the scumteam is literally me and korina; then korina is either backing up that meta read to get town love mislynched, OR he is town..

If love flips town it incriminates korina.

That is one side of it.

The other side is korina replaced chris.
Cheeky has pushed and scumread chris pretty much all game. That makes her unlikely to be scum with korina. So if love flips town cheeky is probably town because she scum would have no motivation to not want town love dead. And so if cheeky is town chris slot is probably scum based on cheeky's read. Even I who initially townread chris did question that read as the game progressed.

So basically it boils down to this
There are several people scumreading chris slot (cheeky, you, possibly love and I think I had him as null before korina replaced)
There are several people scumreading love (me, korina, possibly you?)

Since I am not scum so I can't be korina's partner, and korina and love can't both be scum, and korina and cheeky can't both be scum by association, that means at least 2 townies are scumreading each of these slots.

This is getting convuluted and I'm not sure I'm making much sense but I'm pretty sure we've reached a situation which mathematically guarantees one scum in love/korina.

I think it's most likely love. Korina would only be scum if love flips town.

That's my case on love.
(With the underlying assumption that GL or Love most likely contains 1 scum)

But actually reading back I change my mind. My case on GL is stronger. Let's lynch GL first. We have 3 days.

VOTE: GL

[BuJaber]

What does everyone think of these teams:
GL/cheeky
GL/Ico
GL/Korina

They are not in any particular order.

I think if GL flips scum zz is cleared (I think GL would have played differently and probably would have posted more if zz was his partner. )

I think there is definitely 1 scum minimum between GL/cheeky/Ico.

[BuJaber]

Jfc I'm not scum. Your reasons on GL are shit and you don't bother listening to anyone else's ideas. The associations are so effing dodgy.

If you agree on Ico then please give a read on him?

Yeah let's resort to insulting my play before the game is over.

We don't know I'm wrong yet. I'm doing pretty well claiming up with these considering we had NM + 1 lurker + 2 slots that got replaced because of low posting.

I am listening to other's ideas but considering I scumread the people actually talking I'm taking their ideas with a grain of salt.

The town case on GL is not convincing at all. I will never agree with you and Ico on that based on his posts so far. Should that change in the future I'll let you know.

But I think he's the best lynch right now and we'll see when he flips.

[BuJaber]

Jfc I'm not scum. Your reasons on GL are shit and you don't bother listening to anyone else's ideas. The associations are so effing dodgy.

If you agree on Ico then please give a read on him?

Yeah let's resort to insulting my play before the game is over.

We don't know I'm wrong yet. I'm doing pretty well COMING up with these considering we had NM + 1 lurker + 2 slots that got replaced because of low posting.

I am listening to other's ideas but considering I scumread the people actually talking I'm taking their ideas with a grain of salt.

The town case on GL is not convincing at all. I will never agree with you and Ico on that based on his posts so far. Should that change in the future I'll let you know.

But I think he's the best lynch right now and we'll see when he flips.

Edited

[BuJaber]

I am not excusing zz but say we lynch him and he's town we're screwed.
And if he's scum he gives us no info.

I am not by any means suggesting we don't lynch zz but one of the more solid scumreads has to go.

My position on Ico hasn't changed.
Put it this way these are my choices for lynch in order:
GL > Love > Ico

I know you and Ico townread him so won't vote GL. But I want to hear from korina, love and hopefully zz returns.

Would you ever vote for love? If we have to consolidate or risk no lynch I can vote for ico but like I said I think GL is scum and there's still some time for people to come in and provide their thoughts and/or vote.

[BuJaber]

His play in forest fire is vastly different though? He's lurking here.

[BuJaber]

We all agree now we lynch love or ico today?

As for which one that is proving to be difficult.

I am waiting for korina to return and to hear from zz's replacement.

[BuJaber]

Because for some reason you all townread GL so that lynch isn't happening.

Lynching a lurker right now is shit for info especially when I am scumreading more than one active player.

I'm not completely convinced cheeky is town but given that most of my assumptions this game don't involve her she is the last person I'd want to lynch at the moment.
assumptions I'm talking about are scum in (love, GL, rask) scum in (Love, korina).

If love is town, I think both scum would pretty much have to be GL/korina (And right now before the flip I'm not so sure that makes sense to me). Or I've been wrong the whole game and all 3 of (love/rask/GL) are town, meaning korina and ico/cheeky are the scumteam if love flips town.

I think ZZ is being used as bait. But if love flips scum that's different. Ico probably town, GL or ZZ or cheeky are only ones I can even see as possible scum partners.

It doesn't look like you and love can both be scum here so one of you flips scum clears the other.

Plus individual reasons why you're pinging me: your early game play was scummy. You didn't provide much in the form of original reads except for going after me. Going after me was scummy considering you have first hand experience of my town meta. Your town case on Gl is weak as per my response to it.

I think you are someone I can probably sort better later on though, and for now I'm feeling love lynch is better because gut and I've felt her play was scummy and because it gives us a much narrower scum pool.
But if the town consensus is to lynch you instead of love there are enough reasons for me to support it.

seriously my head would be spinning if love flips town. I don't think I can confidently figure the game out if that happens. So I am a little scared of lynching her. But she just has to be scum.


^Most of this is written as a response to icon but it is not just relevant to him.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: lovebird

[BuJaber]

If someone makes it L-1 I'll unvote, but that L-1 vote would be a scumclaim.

[BuJaber]

Hi sorry.. this is gonna be a prodge mostly. Still waiting for korina replacement.

I am not doc.

If icon is scum - korina slot and GL would be my top two for partners.

If icon is town - love looks bad, Void looks bad, could make a case for GL and cheeky also. And korina can ve scum in this scenario also though that is less likely with scum love.

This is a somewhat difficult situation because I feel love/ico wagons have polarized the game. At the same time I think GL could easily be scum here but I seem to be the only person scumreading him. This makes me think maybe he is town but more importantly if he is town then the people confidently townreading him over nothing (imo) are scum. (Such as Ico, cheeky (very early townread of GL), love)

I think love/korina can't both be scum. Either of them flipping scum clears the other. But if one flips town it doesn't unfortunateky gurantee the other is scum.

BV's catchup posts are pretty good as far as catchup posts go and he's much better than zz for the game progression. I just worry about auto townreading him for it too soon.

Anyway since a claim occurred then I think it's pretty straight forward. If nobody CC's we lynch love. If somebody CC's we lynch Ico. If someone counterclaims and ico is town they scumclaimed obviously.

I am not saying ico being town definitely means love is scum. But I have enough reasons to vote for either of them and I was more inclined to vote for love over ico before the claim - doubly so after the claim. I think they both make great info lynches even if you don't scumread them but for me the people I specifically scumread for their individual play are love, Ico and GL in no particular order. The rest I am having trouble sorting them on their own play and would need to see a flip first because I think they are sortable by assocoations.

[BuJaber]

I am not doc

Yes I just said it lol

[BuJaber]

BV can you explain your townread on cheeky? I understand the resisting NM lynch part. Not necessarily conclusive but I'm okay with calling that a townie play.
However his play since then hasn't been too confidence-boosting now that we are almost sure that Icon is town.

I am voting for love or cheeky today. Unless of course korina-slot CCs ico but that doesn't seem likely.

[BuJaber]

Love / cheeky is the team probably.

It explains the NM pre-lynch shenanigans.
Explains the drop in activity from cheeky and the defensiveness of love after love got some pressure on her.
Explains the weak pushes on ico.

And It's good for my ego because I had love in one scum pool and MM in the other scum pool from very early on

Zzz and christoper slots being town lurkers actually explains the game state better than one of them being scum. They got replaced pretty late (scum would have probably pressured their partner to replace out sooner or post more).

Anyway I don't want to get ahead of myself. Wait for korina-slot just to be 100% sure no doc CC, then we lynch love and see what she flips.

[BuJaber]

I'm just posting any random thought I get while we wait


Not gonna seriously speculate teams until we see a flip

[BuJaber]

GL can still be scum theoritically.

Like if love flips town and nobody CCs ico he is the only one that absolutely makes sense. He has at multiple points of the game suspected both of them without seriously pushing for either until more recently (when it became abundandtly clear one of them will be lynched)

He chose to go for icon first because I think if we look at the posts of cheeky, BV and love before the ico claim it appears icon will be the easier lynch than love. But then of course icon claims doc so GL switches to love.

But I'm hoping love just flips scum so I can get out of this tunnel on GL because he would be a genius if he were actually scum with love and nobody will suspect him before lylo and even at lylo it'd be hard to suspect GL if love flips scum.



Pedit - cheeky's actions pre NM lynch on their own look townie. But it could have been a signal for love to vote there. And it works great as a distancing tool. It is difficult to suspect that both the person who fakehammered and the person who put NM at L-1 are scum together.

[BuJaber]

And just on a personal note GL if you are town I am sorry. I am sorry I suspected you all game and I am sorry you suspected me all game. If you are town I'm hoping next time we are both town we might be able to work together more effectively.

[BuJaber]

I think the whole game is pretty relevant to the current situation we're in. But anyway first of icon claimed doc; do you CC?

Next If I had to pick I'd say starting from where korina replaced in is a good place to start. Read from there until now then work backwards for the background of how we got here.

Mod is pretty active with vote counts an ISO of the mod gives you a good idea of the vote progression.

Your slot was a lurker replaced by a lurker so you're under some suspicion yourself but it looked like the lynch today was going to be either love or icon until icon claimed doc. That's why love is at L-1 but if you're town we really need your own unbiased opinion of everyone as soon as you can.

[BuJaber]

Also those people who are here while Love is at L-1 but not voting are lock clear imo.

No no no no no never play like this.

A hammer while a replacement is catching up is a scumclaim. Not hammering does not mean conftown.

Also if love is scum this point is moot.

And now you're suddenly leading a crusade against me when a replacement has come in. Both you and the replacement not voting for love. How interesting.

Townreading cheeky's sudden activity surge is rediculous.
Townreading her asking for ank's clarification of her read is okay but I don't see how that is a strong indicator. Could easily be faked as scum for town cred.

Look what happened in the thread since ank replaces in man. Love gets townread, ank claims ico was town before his claim (look at me I'm so smart), and cheeky suddenly has motivation to play.

If love is town scumteam is 100% cheeky + ank.

Cheeky trying to shade me because I scumread 3 people who are 'town' in the beginning of Day 1 (only 2 of which are actually confirmed town we don't know for sure that cheeky is yet). Holding me to a standard of accuracy far beyond anything reasonable. Especially considering NM is NM, MM was a lurker, and Ico was scumread by almost everyone until he claimed doc.

Y'all don't like my playstyle it's your problem. These cases on me keep getting weaker and weaker over the course of the game.

Love definitely has to be flipped today. If scum fantastic if town we know exactly who the scum team is. Considering korina and ank's play if love is town that slot is so obv scum it's rediculous.

[BuJaber]

What is unclear about them. The vote on you was because I started getting paranoid while we were talking. Your points didn't all make sense to me. Also because I wanted to sort love/korina but I was not happy with a korina lynch at the time it was still between you and love so I flip flopped.

That giyga's game we had together has messed with my head. I had scumread you there and you turned out to be town. You were pinging me hard in this game but I also didn't want to make the same mistake. Especially when you are one of the few that was engaging with me in this game.

[BuJaber]

Actually go ahead lynch me. Let's see how you avoid getting lynched after that. I'd love to see that oscar winning performance.

The ank replacement looks awfully similar to the way cheeky replaced in too. Replace in, post a lot, defend the leading wagon, scumread the person leading the wagon.

[BuJaber]

Okay I think we can gurantee a town win here even if you don't agree with my reads.

2 scum left 2 PR lefts 2 VTs left.

We lynch love. If he were cop he probably would have claimed by now. So either scum or VT.

If town scum has a 50% chance of shooting cop. Hopefully they shoot wrong.
Cop gets either a clear or a guilty. With icon being cleared and a love flip and a cop result the remaining pool becomes really easy to analyze. If they get lucky and shoot cop it's harder but the analysis should still lead to the correct team.

If love is scum it's even easier because we have associatives and scum has only 1/3 chance of shooting cop.

[BuJaber]

Oh I didn't count myself. So 1/3 chance of shooting cop if love is town..1/4 chance if love is scum.

Good game

I agree that if love is scum BV makes the most sense as partner followed by cheeky followed by GL.

[BuJaber]

Damn you void why did you claim.

[BuJaber]

Omg that claim is so bad.

Just flip love. We can sort BV out tomorrow.

[BuJaber]

If he is cop he killed us.. i just did theath we were golden.

[BuJaber]

UNVOTE: love

[BuJaber]

UNVOTE: love

scumclaim?

I needed to ask you Can void be scum?

[BuJaber]

Okay cop can counter claim tomorrow anyway if BV doesn't get killed.

VOTE: love

[BuJaber]

Why is Void orried about lylo tomorrow is not lylo unless love is town, right?

[BuJaber]

TOMORROW IS NOT LYLO UNLESS LOVE IS TOWN. IF YOU ARE COP HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE IS TOWN

[BuJaber]

Doesn't matter for now we are never lynching you today. Love has to go. But you will never convince me that cop claim was optimal.

[BuJaber]

It was horrible and frankly insulting to my game breaking analysis the post before.

[BuJaber]

If love is scum and void is alive tomorrow he is scum.

If scum keep him alive for wifom then he can give us a result. We lynch void tomorrow and that confirms his result.

Or scum kill him and we lynch cheeky as the 2nd most likely partner for love.

[BuJaber]

If love is scum and void is alive tomorrow he is scum.

If scum keep him alive for wifom then he can give us a result. We lynch void tomorrow and that confirms his result.

Or scum kill him and we lynch cheeky as the 2nd most likely partner for love.

Okay so that's if scum.

If love is town and void gets NK'd we lynch Ank.
If love is town and void is alive that would be really weird but then he gives us a result at least. In this scenario no way 2 living scum would risk keeping void alive

[BuJaber]

If love is scum and void is alive tomorrow he is scum.

If scum keep him alive for wifom then he can give us a result. We lynch void tomorrow and that confirms his result.

Or scum kill him and we lynch cheeky as the 2nd most likely partner for love.

We're not lynching me ever without a cc. And that needs to happen today. Your entire reaction the previous page has been extremely scummy and fake tbh.

You will be counterclaimed if you are not cop that is not an if.

[BuJaber]

And a counterclaim today is dumber than your orginal claim

[BuJaber]

A counterclaim from the real cop is suicide how are you even suggesting it.

[BuJaber]

I'm not implying that you are lying. But if you are then cop should never claim here because they would be killed at night 100%.

If love is scum and you are alive and are counterclaimed tomorrow then yes we auto lynch you that's obvious.

However the issue is if love is town and you are alive tomorrow and you are counterclaimed who do we believe? That is the situation where we just have to assume you weren't killed because you aren't the cop.

[BuJaber]

Keep trying scum. Only way I die is if you kill me at night.

[BuJaber]

Caught scum.

More like bleeding town and town is too blind to see it.

[BuJaber]

Cheeky - you realize you make sense as scum in both town!love flip and scum!love flip?

After all you also townread GL so he is never scum in this game according to literally EVERYONE except me. You have no option to scumread GL or you look bad and Void just claimed cop. I am the only townie left you can scumread without you getting scrutinized for it.

[BuJaber]

However the issue is if love is town and you are alive tomorrow and you are counterclaimed who do we believe? That is the situation where we just have to assume you weren't killed because you aren't the cop.

That's exactly why if anyone intends to counterclaim they need to do it today. Everyone needs to be on the same page that any ccs tomorrow will be treated as scumclaims and auto-lynched.

If I'm scum and the cop cc's and gets nightkilled, I kind of get auto-lynched tomorrow. So, you'd have one guaranteed scum. I don't understand why you are concerned about a "real" cop getting nightkilled when if I'm scum, I CAN'T nightkill the cop if I want to survive tomorrow.

Okay hypotheticaly say I counterclaim now

Love flips town, you do not kill me. Town mislynches me tomorrow. You and your partner win.

[BuJaber]

Okay hypotheticaly say I counterclaim now

Love flips town, you do not kill me. Town mislynches me tomorrow. You and your partner win.

Except we don't flip Lovebird if you counterclaim now. We lynch one of us.

Ohhhhhh
Okay I get it now but next time please claim earlier in the day. This was too close to lynch.


Okay I am not cop

[BuJaber]

Why would cheeky do this me or him if love is scum?

If love is scum we lynch me tomorrow he becomes lockscum.

His play only makes sense if love is town.

[BuJaber]

I revoted love. I was arguing with void but I never voted for void. It's still L-1.

I seriously think it's Ank/cheeky.

[BuJaber]

Icon please just read my iso.
Look how I've pushed for love.

Nope. Love lynch first. You are confscum if he flips town.
You or Ank or GL are scum if he is scum in that order.

[BuJaber]

It isn't a good point. I don't make sense as love's partner ever.

And if love is town who is my partner?
Only people who can be scum are GL or cheeky or Ank.
Only person that would make sense as my partner among those is Ank. So you lynch ank tomorrow first if love is town. At least that way you don't auto lose.

Then I guess GL has to decide between me and cheeky

[BuJaber]

Get off Love, you can vote her tomorrow. We need to get rid of the vocal confusing scum which is Bu. If the cop hadn't claimed y'all could've def won. If we go this way you guys are setting yourself up for another 10 pages of manipulative scum that is going to win in Lylo.

Look at this. Even I have now agreed that cop claim makes sense but she is still saying it was a mistake.

Why would she need to say that?

[BuJaber]

Ank and GL need to come here asap. This game is guaranteed town win if void isn't counterclaimed.

If love is hammered before they post hammer is scumclaim.

[BuJaber]

All I know is I'm town.

If you need convincing re read my posts after the doc claim with the knowledge that I am VT baiting scum into killing me while I thought cop claim was a bad move. And then see how I instantly don't counter claim when I understood void's point.

Look at my posts pre NM hammer. Look at me stubbornly arguing against you, against love, against cheeky, against void, against NM, against GL.

Didn't really go against rask much but he was townreading me before he got lynched. I wouldn't NK him.

That leaves lurker slot Ank. And that is why if love flips town he is auto lynch first. Then y'all decide either me or cheeky if we're both alive.
And if love flips scum I'm cleared.


Pedit - I'm getting paranoid that it is but love flipping town is whay gurantees cheeky/ank that is why love has to be lynched first.

[BuJaber]

Look at my posts pre NM hammer. Look at me stubbornly arguing against you, against love, against cheeky, against void, against NM, against GL.

Throughout the game**

[BuJaber]

UNVOTE: lovebird

Wow you got him to unvote. Cheeky will actually win this game as scum?

Amazing.

How this game will end up with the lylo of me cheeky and GL:

Love gets lynched > Void NK > Ank gets lynched > Ico NK > GL Cheeky Bu remain.

Give me any version where that doesn't happen?
The version where you get these people to mislynch me now.

Ta-da.

[BuJaber]

Love flip sorts Ank.

I need to adjust the lynch order if love is scum it should actually be cheeky then GL then Ank.

You see if love flips town Ank is 100% scum, with cheeky being the most obvious partner.

If love flips scum it doesn't fit that korina slot was bussing. It also doesn't explain why Ank went against the korina read of love. Korina came in wanting to lynch love hard. Ank comes in pretty much conftowning love. This is sloppy play if love is her partner. Therefore love =/= ank.

So that raises the question is there a chance both love and Ank are town? That would mean Ank is so sure of love town based on what exactly? And it would meam that GL and cheeky are literally the scumteam.
Well then why would cheeky be worried about lylo with me and GL? So no. That can't be the team. GL is pretty much conftown at this point.

[BuJaber]

Yeah cheeky has to be scum here. Either with love or Ank. I've considered every scenario and nothing else makes sense based on the reactions.
Either that or one of void/ico is lying which seems impossible at the moment but basically that is why we have to wait for love and GL to post if they are doc just in case.

Cheeky practically rose from the dead (activity wise) when Ank replaced in. She saw that Ank townread love and saw an opportunity.

[BuJaber]

we have to wait for love and GL to post if they are doc just in case

Cop not doc

[BuJaber]

You aren't the lynch tomorrow if love flips town. Ank is.
You are the lynch tomorrow if love flips scum.

We are lynching love

[BuJaber]

No you are ignoring the step by step process that makes my strategy work.

In the small small small chance that you are town lynching you first means town has to decide who is the scumteam between love/ank/GL/me . That is too much margin of error.

Lynching love first means we win regardless of what love flips.

[BuJaber]

If he is so convinced that Ank is scum why does Bu want to lynch Love?

Are you not reading my posts?

I have said multiple times that I am confident Ank is scum IF LOVE FLIPS TOWN.

If love flips scum it actually clears ank because of korina's push on love and ank going out of her way to go against the read of her predecessor.

[BuJaber]

I'm following along roughly, but I'll be a bit before I can go into depth.

VOTE: BuJaber

Most confident on this by far.

Void claimed cop. Do you counter claim ?

[BuJaber]

My logic has been consistent with the changes in the game.
I've said that korina and love cannot both be scum way before ank replaced in.
The only thing I really changed my mind on is GL but that's after both a doc and cop claim and you trying so hard to stop the love lynch.

[BuJaber]

You don't think love/cheeky is possible?

I would vote ank today but I am less confident that love is scum if ank flips town first than I am that ank is scum if love flips town first. Does that make sense?

[BuJaber]

No I mean:

If we lynch love and he is town, I would be 100% sure that Ank is scum.

If we lynch ank and he is town, I would suspect love but I wouldn't be 100% sure.

However either of them flipping scum clears the other because I don't think this was SvS. The interaction between korina/love followed by ank/love is so different and kinda weird.

[BuJaber]

I revoted love. I was arguing with void but I never voted for void. It's still L-1.

I seriously think it's Ank/cheeky.

why are you voting love if it's ank/Cheeky?

Buj, did you answer this one yet? If you did, I missed it. Pretty please link me the answer?

It was the pedit in 1120

[BuJaber]

@buj, no no no no no. You said you were sure about ank/Cheeky. Not that you were sure about ank/Cheeky IF love flips town.

Yeah I am sorry I should have used the word 'might'. That post you quoted sounds too confident.

Like "I seriously think it might be cheeky/ank here".

[BuJaber]

Buj v Cheeky is not SvS. It could still be TvT.

Ank/Cheeky or Ank/Love?

Wait wait ank/love can't be an option.

Ank/cheeky or cheeky/love. We should be voting cheeky

VOTE: cheeky

[BuJaber]

Unless there's a world where GL/ank are scum. That is the only team that makes sense if cheeky is actually town here.

[BuJaber]

why not ank/love?

@Cheeky, it does give us 2 conf town to work with. Both of which were being read as scummy.
Also gives 1 guaranteed town on D3. It's actually pretty good.

I've said it over and over.

It's because korina wanted to lynch love and love got frustrated by that. It didn't look like bussing.. what would be the motivation?

[BuJaber]

Well BuJaber is slightly less scum for going back on the love/me team read.

Anyways, this is my last post until I'm off work. Chill with the posts, seriously.

To clarify you/love was never my teamread. I just didn't read it carefully when icon posted it.

[BuJaber]

Please Ank can you just explicitly say you are not cop ? So there is no doubt.

[BuJaber]

Mind you she says I'm only slightly less scum in a manner which allows her to do whatever. She can keep the vote on me or flip it to someone else and claim she changed her mind.

Looks like it really is cheeky lynch today > Ank lynch tomorrow > thank kmd for it's patience > go home

[BuJaber]

What a shocking turn of events.

When ank replaced in she and cheeky were quite in sync townreading love and trying to move to somebody else.

Now cheeky says I have to be scum with Ank and Ank says I have to be scum with cheeky.

I really can't see how anyone could think I am scum with cheeky given our butting of heads at multiple times in the game and the recent events.

And as for ank and I just ISO her. If we are a team why did she shade me and push me and vote for me literaly from the moment she replaced in? Before the cop claim before the doc claim she starts attacking me.. all for show?


Y'all can't come up with a good scum partner for me because I am town. There isn't anyone left that makes sense with me as town. Especially since that would mean both cheeky and Ank are town which looks impossible right now.

Cheeky has to be the lynch today

[BuJaber]

If he were town, from his own reasoning Ank would be the most likely to flip scum as he keeps saying "lynch Ank tomorrow so it's not a autoloss" which implicitly states that Love is town otherwise there's no chance of it being Lylo tomorrow. Furthermore, if he is so sure of Ank and Lylo tomorrow why is he pushing so hard on Love/now me?

It's utter garbage.

This is a misrep. I can't be sure of Ank flipping scum without knowing for sure that love is town. He is the best lynch tomorrow but not today.
I thought love was the way to go because there is still a chance he is scum but if he isn't scum then it is guaranteed ank/cheeky or ank/GL.

However I now just think it's more likely you are scum in any situation so I want to flip you first.

Lmfao if love is scum and the team is Love/GL since they seem to be avoiding the thread.

BV can you objectively double check GL as conf town? I feel like I'm losing my mind but I think Anks PoV on lynching Love only makes sense if Ank is town - she wouldn't push that line of reasoning as scum would she?

Ank has changed her mind on love. Korina scumread love. Ank townread love and told us all she doesn't agree with and doesn't understand the wagon on love. That is why it is awefully suspicious now.

Love/Ank is starting to look like it makes sense if we can see Love voting Korina as distancing after pressure, particularly if you take her saying "Korina is a mislynch" a couple of times eariler in the day in response to Bu thinking one of the two are scum. Occams razor says Bu/Ank makes sense while Love/Ank can make sense too if you reread Love's ISO and notice her lack of real interactions with the Chris/Korina/Ank slot.

Ank is the common scum read so is very likely the optimal lynch for today with highest scum equity.

I do not make sense with ank at all.. why do people keep bringing this up?
You really think ank who replaced in while lovebird was L-1 would choose to whiteknight lovebird just to build a case against her own partner and try really hard to lynch him? That is insane. She started arguing against me even before she knew who the cop and doc are. Why would she try literally anyone else first and see instead of throwing me to the wolves?
Read my reactions. Do I honestly sound like I expected her to push for my lynch? It came out of nowhere.

Also ank/love doesn't make a lot of sense because korina pushed against love but ank didn't in a way that contradicts her own predecessor. I don't think that scum who knows that their partner tried to bus would be so careless as to derail the wagon in this way.

I am really surprised GL is coming to the conclusion that I am scum even though he has strong reasons to doubt the pairs of teams he puts me in.


For what it's worth it wasn't just the one post I quited that made me understand BV's claim reasoning. I was thinking about it constantly while arguing with him and it was that key detail of love not being lynched if a CC had occurred today that I didn't think about while considering the scenarios in my head. So that post was what I needed to change my mind.

I'm glad both BV and GL see how GL would end up at lylo so cheeky knows that wasn't bs coming from scum. It is the only logical scenario when you have two outed PR claims that have to die.

Also cheeky's reaction to love wagon, making it 1v1 against me, him linking me with ank, him not liking my reasoning and PoE analysis all points to him not being scum partners with GL. Because if he were partners with GL he has no reason to fear GL being alive at lylo.
You do realize that for GL to not be alive at lylo it requires either game ends earlier or scum deliberately not killing a PR? It wasn't weird at all that I came up with that.

I really really can't see cheeky and Ank both being town here. Their tone and reactions and frustrations don't align with their reasoning and reads. I also don't understand why they seem to be giving up if they are town. Each of them claims they would be happy with the other one getting lynched because they think I am the scum partner of the other. Ank claims she doesn't want love lynched but now thinks it's the optimal play. Cheeky chose to make herself a wagon when it could have easily been between love and ank and me.

So basically today's lynch is either ank or cheeky or love or me. By their own logic 3/4 make cheeky happy. 3/4 make ank happy. So why the hell are they frustrated and resigned?

If someone can help me eliminate love/Gl and ank/GL as a team then this game becomes really easy.

Also I prefer a cheeky lynch but ank lynch is fine too. Especially since him flipping town means I can't be his partner. And him flipping scum means 1 scum down so if you lynch me tomorrow you can afford it.

That is not to say that we should forget love lynch.
Love lynch was deliberately derailed. Why? Is she scum or was it derailed by scum whiteknighting her?

[BuJaber]

I am sorry for messing up some of the pronouns.

[BuJaber]

I don't agree with you that cheeky is coming off as genuine. It feels like she has an agenda and a strategy.

Okay Ank then love then cheeky works though. And if cheeky/GL is the team we lose. I don't see it based on how cheeky played but I mean well done if it is.

Intent to hammer after exactly 5 hours or after icon posts