Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Kmd4390]

/confirm

[Kmd4390]

Vote Eddie

Hito, Roflcopter is most exciting for me too. It's been a while.

[Kmd4390]

Pine what was the question

[Kmd4390]

If Eddie's vote on me was a joke, I don't get it.

[Kmd4390]

I'm kinda torn here, I feel like the confirming outside of thread thing isn't a huge deal and I was just voting Eddie to make a wagon. And Axelrod 67 definitely feels a bit like he's squeezing blood from a stone and trying to taking this super far just to have A Reason For His Vote. But even though I don't care about that initial tell I really don't like Pine's reaction here. Seems weird that he first offered the "reason" of PMing to "ask a rules question" about rule 4 in advance of anyone actually posting anything rough, then immediately get in to spats and then later say "oh, I always confirm by PM".

Also I really don't like this one

This post doesn't come from scum. Scum is worried about the PGO, not annoyed at it being misplayed.

Because for someone still nominally undecided about Cooldog's PGO claim this sure seems to be tacitly assuming it's town
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

Meh. I actually agree with Pine there. Rofls mindset actually seems to be someone who wanted the PGO role played better.

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until Monday

[Kmd4390]

Introduction

Ok...

So before my V/LA, I feel like I wasn't doing shit here and usually when that happens, it's because I'm busy. But I was here. And I'm not usually a nothing to say kind of player, but that's where I was. Everything in the first few pages felt dry to read and like petty disagreements between two players not worth weighing in on and I just had nothing to say. So I'm gonna try this again from the beginning and at least give my two cents on everything that stands out as a talking point. Hopefully as I get going, new things stand out to me too. I'm fully aware that a lot of this is likely to come off as fence sitty or IIOA because I didn't get strong reads from it the first time. I'm gonna do it anyway because I want to get involved and develop better reads. So here it goes.

The Eddie and Pine confirmations

To me, the confirmations themselves really didn't mean much. The interesting things are the wagon on Eddie and the reactions from both players.

Eddie's wagon

-
1. Magna's vote is what started it. He's the one who brought up the confirmations. I'd ask why he brought it up, but I mean...first post outside of confirmations, it's like the only thing that can really stand out. I don't see any reason why town or scum is more likely to notice that.

2. Insanity's vote is clearly wagoning for the sake of wagoning. That's normal in RVS. Also doesn't give me a read.

3. Hito's vote is more of the same along with an RQS-type question which I don't how it could be scummy unless someone wants to argue that he's buddying Rofl, but I don't see it. I'd give Hito a weak town read if anything.

4.Jelly's vote is the first one that stands out to me. He voted after Eddie posted and questioned him on it. He was the fifth vote. In my opinion, Jelly is the one who made this a serious push and it's not a push I like.

5. Chamber's vote isn't great in my opinion. It was delayed and came right after Pine began pressuring him (Chamber). It seemed more like he felt obligated to match his vote to his words than it felt like he was voting where he genuinely believed he'd find scum.

Pine's reaction

- I believe him that he had a ruleset question and I believe him about what that question was. It was weird to me at first that he didn't specify what it was but I can see him not wanting to go into it. He initially replied calmly which means he wasn't at all rattled by being a topic of conversation to start the game. He gets a little heated later on, but nothing in that feels out of the ordinary for him.

Chamber's reaction to Eddie's reaction and Pine's vote on Chamber

- I'm not sure what Chamber saw that he didn't like. Also not sure why Pine sees scum motivation in Chamber's post. I'm interested to know both of those things.

Axelrod

- This one is weird to me. He seems to think that the case is that Eddie and Pine confirmed in a scum PT. I don't think anyone ever said that? Being willing to believe that, however, would have to be faked if he was scum and I think it's a reach to say that he'd think to do that at this point. Choosing to vote Pine over Eddie stands out as weird, but I don't think it's scummy. I'm gonna go ahead and throw Axel in the town bin for now...

Kison's reaction

- Is the only opinion you have really that it's "silly"? No more details than that? Nothing on the people on the wagon?

The PGO claim

The claim itself

- I believe the claim. There's no reason not to. If he's scum, there's no sense in giving himself that target unless he's trying to avoid being targeted at night. If he's town, it's better to just assume he's telling the truth. I think this is the kind of thing that will be cleared up as the game goes on, but for now I'm going to treat CoolDog as a town PGO.

Reactions

-
1. Magna. I actually like him confronting the issue the way he did. It reads pretty town to me. It's lacking a certain opportunism a scum push might have. It doesn't feel like a knee jerk "OMG Page 1 claim, vote vote vote" kind of thing. It's a "here's how this will be dealt with" that he appears to have thought of logicially and with the good of town in mind. Early town read on Magna.

2. Chamber asked Magna why he assumed the claim was serious. I was confused by that question. Why would it not be serious? And if CoolDog were to come in and say "lol jk", sure maybe people who believed him look dumb for it, but when I see a claim from anyone in this playerlist except two people, I'm going to treat it as a real claim (I'm not believing any claims from Firebringer and if Eddie claims I'm going to be skeptical depending on the situation).

3. Roflcopter. I still think this is town. I already said why and Pine elaborated as well. It feels like a town mindset.

Old Man being on an alt

The decision to do so

- There's no point in even discussing this. He obviously decided to do it before the game started so it has nothing to do with his alignment. If we dislike it, we should get over it and suck it up. If we don't have a problem with it, cool. It really does not matter.

Magna's reaction

- I read it as a joke. Chamber read it as a joke. Magna confirmed it was a joke. Nothing to see here.

Chamber's reaction

- I believe that he's genuinely annoyed and would be as either alignment. I really don't want to see him replace out over it for the record. Replace outs bother me more than any hidden alt ever could.

Pine's response to Chamber

- I don't like that this made something not alignment related the focus of the game, but the "Rant over" line makes me think Pine never intended for it to be more than a post or two.

Eddie's vote on me

1. By saying not RVS, he made it clear he had a reason for the vote. I can't think of a good reason for scum to withhold that reason. As town, I can see him reaction testing or waiting for more info. So Eddie can be an early town read for me.

2. Pine called the vote "unremarkable". I'm curious why.

3. Magna seems to see Eddie waiting as coasting. That's perfectly reasonable. I know Eddie isn't the type to coast though so there's clearly more coming.

Jelly is giving me scum vibes

1. See #4 under Eddie's wagon in this post.

2. Post 64 is just terrible. He gives names to lynch without a single reason. Two of those names are players who seem to be drawing negative attention, one of which already has a wagon of six. And the other player (Axel) had been pretty quiet making him appear to be another easy target. Also not believing the PGO claim is a little weird. Or at least feeling the need to tell us that if he's not interested in it.

Firebringer seemingly wanting to be policy lynched

Come on. Seriously.

Slight scum vibes from Chamber

1. See #5 on my section of this post on Eddie's wagon.

2. He seems to be focusing on things that don't matter (Old Man being an alt, Some of his stuff on Eddie)

3. I don't like post 75 where he names a scum team and asks if it's too easy.

Conclusions

1. I have some level of a town read on the following players: Axel, CoolDog, Eddie, Hito, Magna, Pine, Rofl

2. I have some level of a scum read on the following players: Jelly, Chamber, Kison

3. I need to do a better job sorting the following players: Firebringer, Insanity, Old Man, Tywin

_____________

So that's everything that I had read already. Next time I can actually do stuff (don't worry it should be tomorrow), I'll focus on catching up on what I missed. I'll be starting at Old Man's entrance.

Unvote

[Kmd4390]

Jelly it's the way it was done. Eddie intentionally withheld his reasoning and made a point in making sure we knew he was doing so. Yours was just... A list.

[Kmd4390]

I know I said I'd read today. Didn't get to it. Tomorrow should be better.

[Kmd4390]

FUUUUUUUUUCK MEEEEEE

I seriously just lost my post.

Will try to put it back together another time. Too pissed to do it now.

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until Saturday

for my 16 hour work days Thursday and Friday.

[Kmd4390]

Old Man, in post 94, you gave Kison a town read for voting based on your avatar. It was RVS. Most, if not all votes are going to be flimsy reasoning. Hell, about half of us voted based on confirmations. Also can you tell me where you got the idea the Eddie wagon was policy?

If Pine flips scum we are lynching Tywin next 100%

Why? I don't see it. What is your read on Tywin now? What would it be with a Pine town flip?

_____________________

Jelly, how do you see Eddie's play as nervous? I don't see any way a nervous player intentionally waits on explaining a vote while he's the leading wagon.

______________________

I'm through post 110 on page 5 (this is more for myself than anyone else)

[Kmd4390]

Does anyone know insanity well enough to know if she fakes this kind of thing as scum?

I don't think I've done anything to justify this read. What do you like about me?

[Kmd4390]

Ok, more reading. Probably won't be much again, but the wife thinks I'm still sleeping and I'm taking whatever free time I can get at this point lol

But Eddies entrance was awkward and deserved scrutiny. He’s waved off that he is getting pressure for a joke. Were both his posts jokes? Who knows. And his “Stupid old guy I play how I like” stance frankly is 100% of the reason I’m keeping my vote there.

Huh? Stubbornness like that usually comes from town. Why wouldn't scum-Eddie just do what everyone is asking to get people off his back?

well, I'm not waiting until Monday to post so I guess itll be today

Ouch. You were waiting on me before doing...anything? I feel bad enough being busy already... Can you explain your town reads on Kison and Rofl if you haven't already? (entirely possible you did this and I just haven't read that far)

_________________

Gotta say I'm a fan of the new firebringer.

I don't have a read there yet

, but this posting style is nice to see. <-Actually I'm gonna say town for now.

Fire - Your head is cozy and warm. But I'm worried you're scum. </3

Why? I got the opposite impression from his posting just before you said this.

______________________

I'm through Page 6.

[Kmd4390]

Got a little bit of time. Gonna try to do Page 7 at least.

This is a good segway to why KMD is scum (1). Look at TM18. At the beginning of my game people but particularly LLD, Bulba, and T-Bone were all talking down to me - they "could not believe" a player could respect my reads. At the end of TM, the host said I played singularly the out of the tournament. The relevant part is here: https://gyazo.com/15919b28a5faa5e91f27695039bd9830 where KMD changed the tide of the game and people stopped being guzzlers. Its the same thing here, where people don't know me and don't respect me as a player, and town!KMD should have at least pointed out I'm not some newbie or shit. It was obvious to me from pregame that I was gonna get wagoned and/or mislynched at some point this game due to circlejerk, and it wasn't really surprising people managed to find a reason to wagon me before I posted. I would think town!KMD would defend me as a player rather than hopping on the wagon on the newbie, so yes, that's >rand chance of being scum, but its RVS. I was waiting to see if he'd defend people as people kept talking down to me, and he didn't. I would have rathered wait longer to give it more of a chance before saying it but V/LA.

There are quite a few differences between that game and this one:
1) T-Bone seemed to think Mathdino was lying about that being my real thought and I got pissed. When I get pissed, sometimes that shifts my focus to the thing I'm pissed about. For about one RL day I cared more about T-Bone accusing my team of lying about something so stupid than I cared about playing the game.
2) Mathdino was my voice in that game. I couldn't post and could only talk through him. He's more assertive, loud, forceful, active, persuasive, etc than I am. My opinions probably came off stronger through him than they would have through me.
3) I wasn't doing anything with peoples' reads on me in mind. People act like trying to look town is scummy. I do it as town too. My filters we're off because I was talking to someone who knew my thoughts were genuine.
4) I had free time. Team Mafia started while I was on vacation. No work for three weeks. I had all kinds of time to read multiple games, keep up, give thoughts, and occasionally do all kinds of work I normally can't on these games.
5) I'd never seen negative opinions of you, or at least not any that stuck in my mind. I was surprised to see it because I assumed anyone who had experience with you would know you are a good player. You listed in this very paragraph people who I've seen negative opinions of you from. It's no longer new to me even though I still disagree with them and respect your play.

There are probably more, but those are what immediately come to mind. It's not the same game by any means. As for my wagon hop, I didn't see anything scummy in the first few posts, so sheeping Magna and joining a wagon seemed productive enough. I didn't see it as wagoning a newbie because I don't see you as a newbie.

_______________

Didn't finish the page but I got distracted by the above.

[Kmd4390]

Oh I get it ... Eddie is just like Mathdino and RC. Well now at least I can calibrate my analysis of his posts through that particular filter. More later ...

Um...no? Those are three very different players.

_____________________

I don't get the Old Man votes. Kison and Rofl didn't really do anything to explain those.

_____________________

Through Page 7.

[Kmd4390]

The Old Man stuff early on page 8 doesn't interest me. It doesn't feel game-related at all. People just seem annoyed with him and I can't get a read off of that annoyance or his own actions. Magna vs Old Man for example, Magna asked everyone but Old Man whether we think Old Man was trying to get Magna's self meta or insult him. I don't see the purpose in answering that. What I will say if Magna has played enough mafia that I'm not going to try to read him based on self-meta even if he does provide it.

Rofl's push seems to be purely policy (correct me if I'm wrong). I feel like I remember Rofl pushing policy in the past, but I don't remember his alignment when he did it. Note to self to look that up.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, let's see if I can finish this up in one more sitting. I should have quite a bit of time as long as I don't fall asleep (it's almost 1AM as I'm starting).

Starting on Page 8...

Another Firebringer post that I like. This one gives me a lot more town vibes than the first two did. It's specifically the way he talks about his read on Magna. At the risk of using a buzzword that is hard to back up, it feels genuine to me. The discrediting tell feels like one he actually believes in.

I've reached my own post. I gave the following reads:

1. I have some level of a town read on the following players: Axel, CoolDog, Eddie, Hito, Magna, Pine, Rofl

2. I have some level of a scum read on the following players: Jelly, Chamber, Kison

3. I need to do a better job sorting the following players: Firebringer, Insanity, Old Man, Tywin

What has changed:
-Town reads on Magna and Rofl have diminished a bit.
-Firebringer and Old Man are now town reads.
-Insanity is a town read pending something.

_______________

I see some suspicion flying at Tywin, but I'm not really seeing why. I hope this gets explained later. If not, can someone do that? I don't really have a read on Tywin right this second.

______________

This is a great post. Well, actually I'm not super sold on Old Man as scum because I'm also on the lynching Tywin train, but the main point stands that the wall wars are polluting this game and are undoubtedly pro-scum no matter the alignment of the participants, and this is a good attempt at cleanup that scum probably wouldn't have tried for.

You're making an assumption that Rofl agrees with you that walls are helping scum. I personally don't get why you think that and I'm not sure I'd make that assumption that Rofl sees it the same way.

My biggest takeaway from it is what I've already said: Axel, who didn't actually join the wagon but sorta kinda condoned it & threw his vote in with Pine instead. It really did read as "I don't want to be #7 on this thing."

Meh. That stood out to me for a second, but what town player wants to put someone at L-1 at that point in the game?

KMD finally posted @192 and it was...weird. He actually goes through the wagon on Eddie, looking at all the votes, and remarking on which ones seemed like normal RVS, what ones could have come from town and what ones pinged him, but he completely ignores/omits any reference to his own vote? Which was the Fourth one.

Yeah, I'm not gonna analyze my own vote. I already know I'm town so what would I be trying to gain by trying to figure out my own thought process?

So @KMD: what was up with your vote for Eddie? Did you see that he had three on him already and that you would be #4? If it was RVS, did it concern you at all when two more people jumped on after you, putting Eddie to L-2? You certainly didn't say anything about it, and you didn't unvote.

This is kind of a Red Flag for me on KMD here.

I didn't have a better reason to vote anyone than the one Magna gave on Eddie and figured a wagon could be useful anyway. At the time, no, more votes on the person I was voting didn't bother me. I still wanted to see the wagon build so maybe we could get something out of it.

Hito is giving me overtly wolfy vibes, but I don't think a pro player like him would be that obvious. Or would he? Christ I just WIFOM-bombed myself.

I'd lynch any in {Chamber, Old Man, Axel} right now. {Hito, Firebringer} also giving me bad vibes, but are not D1 lynches atm due to insufficient confidence.

Can you elaborate on Hito here? You say he's being obvious without saying how, but then list him in the insufficient confidence tier. What is he doing that is "obvious"? I've actually been townreading him myself.

This is a distinction without a difference. I obviously had reasons for 'listing' those three people that I was simply choosing not to elaborate on at the time. Why did you give Eddie Cane credit for having reasons, but not me?

Really? Because he said there were reasons and he was waiting and you...didn't. I don't buy that you can't see the difference.

You then proceed to discuss Pine's reaction and chamber's reaction to Eddie Cane's reaction... but you somehow don't actually discuss Eddie Cane's reaction.

So what do you think of Eddie Cane's reaction to his wagon?

You're misunderstanding my quote. I didn't mean his reaction to the wagon. It was more Magna's post specifically, so Eddie's entrance. The fact that he stuck to the whole withholding reasoning for scumreading me thing despite six votes on him. To me, that says he cares more about getting his read on me right than he cares about being wagoned. Scumhunting over survivalism. I realize he eventually got annoyed at being wagoned, but I think that's pretty normal for him and he didn't let it discourage him from what he was trying to do.

I fullclaim Day 2 Innocent Child.

Well then.

I would also like to see KMD commit to a vote. You've not had one placed since Eddie.

I'll vote when I've read the thread. My vote would have been on Jelly from the time I unvoted to the time you said this though if I'd been caught up.

_______________________

I'm loving how this game is like 95% real content and only like 5% bullshit, but that also makes every page that much more to read. I'm only through page 10 and my eyes kind of hurt. I'm gonna take a break and might or might not pick this back up tonight. If not, I'm hoping for a similar stretch of time tomorrow night. Also could try to read a page or so when I get up in the morning. I really want to be caught up on this because once I get there I think staying there will be easy.

[Kmd4390]

But KMD gets my vote for yet another post that avoids him directly addressing Eddie’s reasoning for voting him

*shrug*. Hadn't seen it yet. Can't address what I haven't read.

_______________

Yikes. 255 has me starting to see what all the Tywin hate is about. I don't see why he has Axel as scum. I think the scum read on Hito is weird (is hito only allowed two scum reads?). Says he agrees with Magna's thought process, but doesn't get specific on that. Rofl and Kison town reads seem to assume his scum reads are 100% correct. I know Tywin is better than this. What is going on here?

_______________

KMD: It's weird that he's still voting you and not acknowledging that you have given a reason for your vote of him. While the lost post in 229 must be frustrating, it's weird that he hasn't at least posted a brief description of the points he wanted, especially since he knew he would be going V/LA.

You're incorrect about my vote. I unvoted before you said this. I didn't acknowledge Eddie's reason because I hadn't seen it yet. And I didn't summarize the lost post because I was annoyed, like I said. So you gave three points: One is flat out wrong and the other two have nothing to do with my alignment.

The other people I've expressed suspicions of include <snip> And (2) KMD, who has also made unfulfilled promises of future posts

You probably (or at least hopefully) don't realize this, but that means you're suspecting me for having an annoying work schedule and very little free time. I assure you that I don't call into work when I'm town in mafia games.

_________________

Through page 11.

[Kmd4390]

Very happy with my vote. KMD’s latest post is basically a rehash of the beginning of his first catchup to some degree and he has no reason to be going that far back when lots of things have occurred since then. He continues to avoid the direct question of whether Eddie’s reason for voting him was valid or not.

I don't like skipping things. I have about a decade of meta to back that up. I went back and picked up where I left off and if I get behind again, that's what I'll do again. I want context. I don't want to come in and see a wagon popped up on someone and have no idea where it came from. For example, had I skipped things here, I'd have missed old man's claim. That's kind of important to know about.

________________

Kison, what specifically about firebringer's posts doesn't add up?

Similarly, would join this wagon. KMD, seriously. Why are you still not voting after all this time? Even with the post you lost & subsequent halfway catchup reread, I'd expect you to at least be able to summarize your thought process & vote

I've given my reads a couple of times. The vote will come when I'm caught up. If a read somewhere wasn't clear or you want to know where my vote would have been at any time, go ahead and ask.

His early posts look like active lurking / avoidance; he makes a point to post in the thread, but he does so without offering actual opinions. In particular, he struck me as nervous in Post #83. His reaction was so over-the-top / insulting; I think he was trying to act 'tough' to mask his concern over his wagon.

I don't see nervousness there. I see condescending and showing that he belongs in a game with a strong playerlist by not backing down.

Kmd's "catchup" 270 feels like just stalling. If that's the gist of the post he supposedly lost, I don't see why he would have been so upset about losing it. And couldn't have posted it earlier.

Meh. I didn't lose much. It was mostly questions to Old Man about his posts at the bottom of page 4. At the time, when I saw all those words disappear and couldn't get them back, it felt like more and it pissed me off. But looking back it could have been a lot worse than that. Can you tell me what the scum benefit would be in "stalling"? Because I think that would be more likely to lead to votes on me, not less.

__________________

Through Page 12.

[Kmd4390]

Axel (in response to post 307):
You said you believe me to be avoiding the game. So I'll ask you the same question I asked Insanity: what is the scum benefit to doing that rather than simply being caught up and under the radar? You then go on to list three posts. One was me being busier than I expected one day. The other is my lost post (my computer sucks). And the third is me going V/LA because I work 16 hour days with zero internet access (electronics are contraband and can get me fired and/or arrested). All of those are real life things. I know people do some grimy things in mafia games now, but I'd hope lying about RL is still something that doesn't happen much if at all. Either way, it's not something I'd do or have ever done in ten years of playing this game.

You also called my questions "random" implying they don't count as content. In the post you quoted, I asked for clarification on Old Man's town read on Kison that I don't agree with. I asked Hito about his Tywin-Pine associative. I questioned Jelly on his Eddie read that I don't think is genuine. And I asked if anyone is more familiar than I am with Insanity because the "I don't deserve your town read" thing can be a very strong town tell for some players and I want to know if Insanity is one of those players. I don't see how any of this qualifies as random or why it isn't worth pursuing. It's what stood out to me. Is there anything specific you'd like my stance on that I haven't commented on already?

And I think I want to mostly ignore your jab at me "not trying". I don't have much time for mafia, but I do what I can and when I'm here I'm putting in full effort. I'd be doing the same even if I was scum. I'm a competitive person and I want to win anything I play in. Mafia is just one of many examples of that.

you were crying so hard about

This, I WILL ignore. If you want an answer to anything that was in that paragraph, please rephrase. I'm not gonna be talked to like that.

I also see some stuff about my Eddie vote. I've addressed that a few times since you asked. If that didn't answer your questions, feel free to let me know what is missing.

_____________________________

Maybe before asking questions in a catch-up, see if I answer that question on like, the next page.

Or you could quote that knowing I hadn't read up that far. ... but anyway... so it's a meta read specific to how he interacts with you. That's fair, but it doesn't do much for me unfortunately.

_____________________________

But you had posted since these posts happened, and kept your vote on me and said nothing. Posts like 79 did not give any indication you weren't following the game. Why didn't you call out those votes sooner? Idgi

Meh. I was still voting you so other votes on you didn't stand out and I was kind of having trouble getting anything out of the thread at that point. Everything felt dry and dull and pointless. It's not often I re-read, but I felt like I had to do it there and it helped. Noticing more about those votes is a big part of that.

_________________________

Tywin vs Hito is hard for me to sort. Tywin's point about Hito voting him over Pine seemed like a good argument, but Hito is correct that he voted Pine first (I'd forgotten that). I can see where Tywin is coming from with the whole thing about early wagons usually being on town even if I don't agree that you should just assume that to be the case, but that's all theory talk. That same post could appear in MD which means it can be easily posted here if he's scum. I think the biggest takeaway for me is actually Kison's point. The whole thing about Tywin assuming Eddie is town except when he's going after Hito. I'm actually starting to come around on Kison as town I think. I dunno, people seem more sure on Tywin being scum than I probably ever will be. But I can see it. If Kison is town, I see the first four votes as town votes so that should count for something.

___________________

{OM, CD}
{Insanity, Kison}
{Roflcopter, MoI}
{Axel, Pine, Hito}
{Fire, Tywin}
{PJ}
{KMD}
{Morality}

Not too far off from my own reads, minus myself as scum of course. Swap your third and fourth tiers, move Firebringer up and Kison down a little, and swap Jelly and Boon and I think that's pretty much where I'm at. Oh, and pencil your name in where Kison's was. So, this:
{Old Man, CoolDog}
{Eddie, Insanity}
{Axel, Pine, Hito, Firebringer}
{Kison, Magna, Rofl}
{Tywin}
{Boon}
{Jelly}

_______________________

Sorry, I did use the word obvious. Skimming error. Still, "overt" was the operative word there, and that difference remains valid.

I'm actually not completely sure of the difference between the two... And I'm still curious what it was that made you feel that way about Hito.

@Kmd, do you usually do page-by-page catchups without reading ahead in the thread?

Was 270 what you had planned to post at 229, or were there other things you wanted to say?

I pretty much always read the thread in order without skipping things if that's what you mean. 229 was mostly directed at Old Man's entrance. It wasn't much but it was frustrating at the time.

_________________________________

Axel:

1) "Active" lurking. Of the kind where you pop in every so often to make a post that doesn't say a whole lot, or asks a random question, or makes an excuse for why you haven't been posting.

Active lurking is being here and not posting. If I'm not posting, I'm not here. But yeah this boils down to you suspecting me for real life.

2) His vote for Eddie. Initially unexplained, 4th on the wagon. Eddie had not even made a post in the game yet. Now, reasonable minds can disagree, and some might argue that it's even good strategy to run someone up really fast for no reason at all, but IF that's your rationale, you had best follow through and/or do something to show that this was what you were doing. KMD did not. In fact, Eddie posted soon afterwards and proceeded to get two more very quick votes.

I've been over this one. Did you miss it or did it just not satisfy you?

In fact, Eddie posted soon afterwards and proceeded to get two more very quick votes. KMD's response - in as much as there was a response, was to say, in #63:

If Eddie's vote on me was a joke, I don't get it.

That's after the 6th vote has been placed on Eddie. So, if I'm reading that, my feeling is that this is KMD expressing support for this wagon. Not that it was random RVS, not that he was "reaction testing", but that he's got a reason to be here, and he's staying here. The vote sticks until #192.

Wrong. That's me saying that if there was a joke, I didn't get it.

Your point #3 is basically showing where I address your suspicions without saying there's anything else wrong. But as for this:

But that was in #310. Where was this defense when the wagon/votes were happening?

I was still voting Eddie. I wasn't questioning the votes until I got a town read on him. Just because the initial reason for the wagon wasn't anything solid doesn't mean I'm gonna attack everyone who jumps on before I have a read on Eddie or before I have better suspicions.

Some of the other stuff in #192 is okay. I like that he's addressing a bunch of topics of conversation, and some of his responses seem reasonable enough. But it's such a big dump post, immediately followed by a week of more lurking, it's the kind of thing I can see a scum doing, working themselves up to "say something" because they know they have to, and then hoping it's enough to make people leave them alone.

And...I'll say it again. This is you suspecting me for real life. I'm not about to smuggle a cell phone into work and get myself into trouble over a mafia game. It's just not something I'd do and that's true regardless of my alignment in any game.

_________________________

Also, Morality flaking is probably scum :/

when has me flaking EVER been scum indicative?

not in general. here.

Huh? I had my issues with Chamber in that slot, but Boon is right. Inactivity for him is usually a town tell. You acknowledge that in that last quote. Can you tell me why this time is different?

I feel like Eddie’s taking an easy push, and I don’t know how I feel about it.

VOTE: Eddie Cane

I see that Morality got replaced, but I don't like that in this post he still doesn't answer Hito's question

________________________

And the posts themselves are full of generalizations and misrepresentations

Um, what? This is the first you've mentioned this. Point them out or I'll assume you're throwing out buzzwords just to make your "case" sound stronger.

________________________

i really still want to lynch axel seriously is no one else seeing this?

Is this your case:

voteparking on pine, cheerleading the eddie wagon, giving kmd a red flag for being on the eddie wagon, and repeatedly defending old man while not quite calling him a townread.

Because it's all you've said about Axel other than just he's scum. Why are any of the things you listed there scummy?

_____________________

Isn't Tammy supposed to be the old people version of Creature? God at town, shit at scum? If true this replacement is probably best case because we either get an amazing player or we get a free scum lynch.

I was scum with Tammy in a game nancy modded and she played well. She seems to have the idea she's not good at scum and it does seem to stress her out to be scum, but "shit at scum" isn't at all something I'd agree with based on that game.

_____________________

When I took the time to read the game thoroughly, his posts stood out & looked like fake effort. He had very few actual opinions on the game. The only strong read that I could pick out was scum on MoI which I don't see at all. This could be his playstyle. I don't know. I wanted to get more out of him mainly.

Meh. I understand the fake vibe, but I think it comes from him trying to unnaturally stretch out posts for his new style. More opinions would be nice though.

_________________________

Looking forward to seeing where KMD's vote lands. Less eager to join his wagon for the moment.

Vote petroleumjelly

_________________________

And with that I'm fully caught up. I am going to the Yankees game tomorrow and working Wednesday and Thursday so I'm gonna announce a

V/LA until Friday

. However, I'll be around to check in at times tomorrow and I don't at all expect to fall too far behind in just a few days. Friday I should be back to the pace I've been at these past few days.

[Kmd4390]

Old Man, why didn't you look at Pines town game? I feel like I remember him starting strong then slowing down as both alignments.

Pine, congrats!!!

[Kmd4390]

Hito, yes that's where my scum read on Jelly came from.

______________

Axel, sure some scum lurk. And if there is meta to back that up on someone, sign me up for their Lynch. But luckily, you're talking about me and I have all kinds of meta you can look at. You will find games where I'm active as town, games where I'm active as scum, games where I'm less active as town, and games where I'm less active as scum. What every one of those games has in common is my activity depends on real life, not alignment. What you won't find is a game where I lurked strategically as scum. It's poor strategy and that is one opinion I've kept from the time I played my very first game right up to now. I was actually town in the only game where I intend tionally held back (beloved princess to be specific) and that didn't work out.

As for the wuestions I asked, it's simply what stood out to me when I was reading that part of the thread. Nothing more, nothing less. I even gave you what was going through my head on the posts you singled out. Can you tell me why it's not valuable to know the things I asked there? I can understand it looking outdated by the way, but that's where I was in my read.

Well, it's the timing of the post almost as much as the content of it. That was right after Chamber put down Vote #6, I believe. Vote #6 is no joke (or at least, it shouldn't be) Do you really not see where your post, immediately following that one, looks like tacit support for the wagon?

Timing just means that's when I was looking at the thread. I don't sit around on my phone all day watching the thread for when I should post. I do it when I can. And no, I don't see how not seeing a joke can be taken as support for a wagon. If anything, it was me saying I had no idea what Eddie was talking about, which says nothing about Eddie's alignment or his wagon. Just that I was waiting to see where he was going with things.

Haven't actually made a case on Tywin yet. Mainly was just pointing out his own relatively low level of activity. I have not tried to dissect those long posts of his in great depth, but even from what I did read, I could see there were lots of generalizations and misrepresentations he was making. I imagine I will get around to pointing some of that out, later, if I decide to vote for him.

I'm going from memory here and have no time to check but could have sworn you said that about me, not tywin. Either way, I'd like to see the specifics.

___________________

Will respond to everyone else another time.

[Kmd4390]

No. Well at least no in the sense you are pedaling here. Stubbornness is a personal trait not an alignment trait. I’d wager people would find me stubborn regardless of my alignment. I’m pretty sure Eddie falls into the same category.

Stubbornness, generally, sure. But when it comes to something like "I'm not explaining X until Y happens" even under the threat of a wagon, that's town stubbornness. The reason for that is you know it's not helping things as far as peoples' reads on you, but it may help you with your own reads. As scum, only one of those two things matters.

In some respects sure but their psych profiles all share a certain set of values. Do you think this is indicative of scum behavior KMD? I get the sense you are more looking to pick at points as opposed to look for scum.

If you are town, I want you to be using logic that will get accurate results. If your basis for anything regarding Eddie is "he's like Mathdino" or "he's like radiantcowbells", you're probably going to be wrong. So yeah I wanted to correct that. But no, I don't at all think that makes you scum.

Eddie – Can you link me to the post or posts in general from Team Mafia you were referring to with KMD? Because his explanation really seems like a sidestep and I want see it firsthand at this juncture.

Which of the things I listed do you not find credible?

It felt you might have been trying to look busy by making posts on the past thread, while avoiding the need to engage with anything happening right now which might be more controversial.

For completeness, can you provide a link to a game where this was your style of catching up?

Sure. This game just finished:
viewtopic.php?t=75460&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

You'll notice throughout most of Day 1 where I was behind I even had my self reminders saying how far I was in my read just like I'm doing here.

[Kmd4390]

Boon knows my town and scum games, we have played together a LOT. His predecessor was scumreading me on meta, which is explicitly wrong because this is my town game blatantly and why I was tryna get Chamber to link the games he looked at. Boon also knows scum!him probably can't 1v1 me. Its more that that slot was probably scum and Boon flaking rather than fighting definitely didn't help that. Tammy's stuff doesn't seem bad so far though so we'll see where that goes. The reason I worded it as "lets 1v1" is because every time I've 1v1'd Boon we end up correctly townreading each other or scum!him gets lynched. The one true 1v1 we had with screaming and shit was the former and we townblocked hard.

Hmm. Boon doesn't strike me as the type to just give up like that. But if you're right about the situation, I can see where it would be a tough spot for him. And I was scum reading chamber so...maybe.

KMD, why am I so solidly town for you? I don't really get it from your posts.

I've said a handful of times why your waiting on me despite the wagon on you was town. And then there's the fact that I'm pretty sure there was scum on your wagon and I don't think they were bussing. There's also been nothing in your posts since then to suggest you are scum. Everything reads as a genuine effort to solve the game.

[Kmd4390]

I have good vibes from PJ 390 where he answered my comment of "I can't really remember his positions" by giving a read list. I didn't actually request reads, and I think scum there would have just thought "hey it's probably good if he can't really remember me".

You don't think scum would rather be read as town than left in a pool that eventually could make them scum by process of elimination?

_____________________

Firebringer, your town read on Jelly is one I'm having trouble understanding and it's not just because I disagree with it. You seem to have the idea that he's borderline incompetent as scum which I don't at all get. And then any other mention of him is either just that he's definitely town and you saying that you already elaborated on him. Your read feels overstated if anything. I'd just like to know if there's more to it or if it's as simple as you don't think he can...well...play the game as scum. I'd imagine a guy who has been on the site for 13 years is capable of playing the way he has been so far so hopefully there's more to it or I'm just misunderstanding you completely.

_____________________

Spoiler: non-game stuff

the one good thing about month long deadlines is you cant really vla and miss a day

QFT. This is why I loved the idea of Geriatric when Korts first posted it. Mafia for people who don't have time for mafia.

*Caveat: I am exhausted trying to help Lady Pine through feeding a baby that won’t latch. The first time she did, and twice briefly today, but it’s concerning.

Tell her don't give up with it. That's actually really common at first. There's all kind of advice online from people who have had that issue. Breastfeeding is so much healthier than formula.

___________________

Note to self: I want to check something in Tammy's meta and need to find a town game or two of hers. Meh, I should probably look at a scum game or two as well just to be sure I'm not misremembering the tell I think I'm picking up.

Absolutely detest Tywin's 99

I think I picked up something he's more likely to do as town than scum, so I'll have to come back to this.

Tywin is my biggest concern as of now.

Hmm. You said when you first replaced in that you're leaning scum and I'm assuming that's still your read (correct me if I'm wrong). Are you willing to say what the meta tell was and why your reasons for scumreading him might outweigh that? And why haven't you voted him?

_________________

for me prod dodging is like reading the last few posts and then going ugh god the rest not right now

Then I'll assume you missed me asking you about your case on Axel. I'd still like that addressed.

Having trouble seeing the PetroleumJelly scum reads. Someone mentioned earlier they scum read him because he's throwing out a lot of questions. I quickly looked at some of his other games and it seems to be pretty standard for his play style. Someone else mentioned they didn't like his vote #5 on Eddie. Is that it?

It wasn't just the vote. His read on Eddie from then up to now doesn't feel like a genuine read. I just saw after typing that that you said the same thing about Tywin. Not really relevant, I know, but made me laugh.

I'm missing the context of who Eddie is replying to but uh that's not what happened or at least not how it happened. After Morality made that active lurking post he made like two other posts on site and then siteflaked for a few days. He got prodded, didn't pick up his prod and I got an email asking if I still wanted to replace in. Korts sent me the role pm and pretty much at the same time, Morality came back and began the 1v1 with Eddie. But since I had already been sent the role pm, Korts considered him already replaced, so the 1v1 got cut short because he was no longer in the game.

I don't know Boon very well, but he seems like he's got a pretty big ego about his game and I can't imagine him running away even if he were scum, but that's neither here nor there because it's not what happened.

True, but he also admitted to actively avoiding the thread before all of that. I guess it's not really "giving up" so much as hiding. I guess I could believe that Boon would do that as scum.

[Kmd4390]

And responses like this are why I still scum read you KMD. You are going out of your way to portray my thought process in a way that shows either you don’t understand it or are being willfully ignorant on the subject. It feels scummy since I have clearly stated that the similarities are on specific psychological elements and not on playstyle.

I don't understand it but I don't see why you think I'm going out of my way to show it when that post was a direct answer to a question you asked me about it or why it would be a problem if I was. I don't see a similarity there. Playstyle, personality, whatever. I don't get it.

The whole thing was completely over-explained. Here’s that post again for those following along at home – 318. You spent way too much time explaining in detail about how the games are different when the last line – should have been all you needed to say on the issue. Of course the games are different.

*shrug*. I like to go into detail when I can in games. It makes me more transparent. I'm also aware that other people may not be familiar with the nature of Team Mafia or that the way Eddie presented it wasn't exactly how I saw it.

Additionally I’m having a hard time with your read on Eddie. Ever single thing he does is a Town tell for you. And when to my mind if you were Town and he laid out a scum-read (even early on) towards you based on that logic that you spent so much time explaining wasn’t valid I would not expect you to think “Town”. It feels contrived to me and almost appeasement of him since you returned.

Wrong doesn't always mean fake. His reasoning didn't come off as fake. He noticed a difference between my actions toward him here and in another game and took that difference to be due to a different alignment. I showed that there were quite a few differences and alignment isn't one of them. It's a common assumption from town players that someone doing one thing in one game and another somewhere else must mean they were town in one and scum in the other. I'm pretty sure that's all that happened here.

Have fun looking at my meta We were scum together in one of the last games I played here btw. It was Nancy's Girls game where I was in a hydra with Nacho (Imperium) and flaked.

Yep, I mentioned that game earlier. It's actually the game that made me think of the thing I want to look for. But I can't find our PT for some reason and it was something I'm pretty sure you said in there that I have in mind. I might be able to figure it out without it but it will be harder.

I'm not sure what your question about what my reasons for scum reading him might outweigh that is referring to. I did mention that I remembered that in the game we played together, I did not like many of his posts but I townread him due to his paranoia and jumpiness which I thought overrode me not liking his take on the game regardless. Are you meaning that?

You said you picked up on something he'd be more likely to do as town. What I meant was why do your reasons for scumreading him outweigh whatever that was?

I'm not voting him for two reasons. I'm not caught up. I'm not even halfway through this game and am still forming my reads. And I'm not a big voter. I realize this frustrates some people at times until they're used to me, and even after they're used to me, but I don't vote until I'm ready. And when I do vote, it's usually because I have a scumread I feel comfortable with and they're the person I want lynched.

Ok.

Right, and I said that in the post you quoted. He made the active lurking post, and then pretty much site flaked. He made a couple other posts on site before getting prodded and then replaced. There was no hiding involved though. People in hiding don't usually post in response to getting called out with "I'm active lurking; I'll post later" and when he came back when getting replaced he did go into the 1v1. He just got replaced in the midst of that. Maybe Boon would do that as scum, but he didn't.

Boon doesn't really fit with what people "usually" do. He likes to do blatantly scummy things and then tell us all he'd never do it as scum because he's good at scum. The active lurking post is definitely something he'd do for a reverse psychology kind of town read because "scum wouldn't do that".

KMD - Turnabout is fair play. At the end of 192 why was there an unvote without a revote? Kinda felt like there should be a Jelly vote there.

I wasn't anywhere near caught up. I don't like to place a new vote with zero awareness of gamestate.

[Kmd4390]

That's it! Thanks.

[Kmd4390]

I'm super interested in the thing you thought you saw from our scum chat, so I hope you point it out before i fall asleep!

I've started a post about it, but needed a break because I had loud toddlers in the room and now I'm realizing I have to catch up again so that will take priority. But basically, it stems from what I said when you first replaced in: that you are good at scum, but appear to get stressed out playing it. I still need to look at meta and am struggling to figure out what was you and what was Nacho in nancy's game.

Ah on Tywin - the thing I picked up that I thought he was more likely to do as town than as scum was the paranoia and way he pushed his reads. Neither of those things was present in his posts at the point when I was almost going to replace his slot, which is why I said I might be coming back to that. I don't know what his posts were like after the prod and almost replace point, so it he looked like town once he got into the game it yes would override my dislike of his first couple posts at my almost replace in point.

Did I understand your question there?

Yeah, it actually looks like I misunderstood you and not the other way around. When you said you picked up on something he'd do as town, I thought you meant you'd picked it up here and were townreading him as a result and then flipped that read.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

There's nothing faceable about that and once it became a town tell it ceased being a town tell.

Are you speaking generally or about Insanity specifically? Because for some people, it's still a town tell.

I think everything you are doing is just pushing me either for playstyle issues or just because you see me as easy mislynch potential. That is all. Frankly I could see you as town here, but I think its doubtful. Would anyone tell me anything I am missing about MOI that is townie that I am straight up ignoring?

For what it's worth, I kind of see this too. The only thing is I feel like Magna is good enough to not need easy pushes. It seems like as scum he could go after whoever he wants and look town doing it.

I wanted to respond to this post as well but forgot.

I think you are misunderstanding my read? I don't think of PJ as incompetent scum. PJ won several scum games at Calimeet, like he isn't terrible at it. I think when he plays he goes for this kind of more pronounced behavior of questioning things that are either apparent or obvious in order to seem like he is trying to think things out. When we played at Cali I remember often he would ask odd questions that seemed like they were like he had dozed off in the middle of the game and was trying to replant himself. I don't think its very similar to here. Like I said I think peoples behavior in a faster paced games is going to be similar to a longer paced games but in more subtle ways.

For example (self meta here), in a faster paced games I act impulsively and with little forethought of what will occur because of my actions. I behave that way in longer faster paced games as well. Its just sometimes now I have a minute to think about the madness and what can potentially happen. Theres still impulsivity in my play its just now its not as obnoxious (although i think some would say it is).

Post 467 doesn't give you that impression?

[Kmd4390]

Eddie, it wasn't paranoia. I was scum reading Transcend before you replaced him in that game.

[Kmd4390]

I don't remember ever both being town outside of Team Mafia so I'm not sure what game you mean.

[Kmd4390]

Vote petroleum jelly

^That must have fallen off somehow.

[Kmd4390]

Guys don't replace out. Ugh.

[Kmd4390]

Eddie, I finally read jelly's big post and I agree with you that most of his points are no good (it's all either personality tells or signs that he himself is out of touch with current site meta). I'm curious what you have to say about his point five though. I don't necessarily agree that it makes you scum but it's the one point that stands out to me and his replace out costs us the interaction between the two of you that was sure to follow and could have been useful if not for emotions getting in the way.

Pine, can you tell me which of jelly's points you liked and why? By post 504, I'm guessing 3-7. Is that accurate?

I think it's that MoI's cases (as either alignment) tend to be kind of "policy" in the sense that sometimes, it feels more like MoI equates the "least acceptable player" with the most likely to have a red PM, as either alignment. Whereas this game, I found his opening to be a lot more proactive and concerned about motive.

That's interesting because I've also noticed that about Magna. The difference is I do see it here.

[Kmd4390]

In general yes. For some people it might be a town tell; is there a reason you think it is for her specifically?

The fact that I don't know Insanity that well means I can't rule it out. I agree that it's been used as a tell enough that for people who have seen it a lot, it's easy to fake. Hell, I do it myself all the time as both alignments just to get townread. But my question was whether anyone knows if Insanity specifically would do that. Because it was originally used as a town tell for a reason.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, not buying this. But does make me believe they probably aren’t scum together.

There have been a few times when I was about to call you out for attacking poor play over scummy play, but remembered that's pretty normal for you. You've done that with old man, myself, and firebringer. The other part of it is that as soon as you see something you think is scummy, you see the worst in everything they say after that point. So, like Hito, I do always seem to scum read you. Is there a reason you think I'm making that up?

[Kmd4390]

I agree the Firebringer case is more of the difficult-to-read side of MoI. But there are some very motive focused posts like ISO 10 and at least FMPOV that's enough to settle my nerves until we have some more concrete flips in.

Meh, the points about Old Man using "ridiculous reasoning", "rambling", and thinking Eddie was a policy lynch all feel like suspecting poor play to me. In past games, have you noticed a difference between town Magna and scum Magna? Or just that he uses borderline policy logic as town?

[Kmd4390]

Magna, I'm not saying you're pushing policy lynches. It's more that the things you tend to legitimately find scummy are things others would consider policy. You see poor play and think "that must be scum". Your example in that very post about firebringer is exactly what I'm talking about. Does it benefit him as town to lie about being able to read you accurately? No. Does it benefit him as scum to lie about something so easily provable that he's sure to get the reaction from you that he got? Of course not. What's more likely is that he thought he was better at reading you than he is and he was mistaken. Unfortunately that tells us nothing about firebringer's alignment. But you see that he told us something and you can prove it wrong so he must be lying and must be scum.

[Kmd4390]

[quote="Hito"]
Not moving it while catching up is fine, unless it's do-or-die time. The thing I'm trying to attack now is static votes that look like they're gonna sit until deadline scramble. If you have a strong definition of when your vote should come back in to play (ie when you're caught up) it's not nearly as big an issue. I just want to make sure the coalitions that will end up forming form in time for the pressure to get reactions and for folks to clearly declare for where they want to be, instead of the coalition building being panicky and last minute such that we get weeks of no-one-above-L4 and like one day of interesting pressure.[\quote]

Makes sense. Jelly/Ginngie probably isn't getting lynched. I still need to look into Tammy's meta a little more and she's not getting lynched anyway. My vote will end up on Lycan at some point so why wait:

Vote Lycanfire

[Kmd4390]

Haven't read in detail but caught this on a skim:.

Unfortunately that tells us nothing about firebringer's alignment.

You keep harping on bad play as if it is only something that comes from Town

.
Lol

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until Saturday

[Kmd4390]

nspirational Mafia - a part of why I think KMD's stance here is coming from a scum perspective is this game. We were both Town. He observed me directly not attack SnarkySnowman (for whom poor play is basically the standard) on poor play and correctly read him there. In fact the last day we were both in the game together KMD was voting off scum on Snarky. So he very well knows that I am more than capable of recognizing Town poor play.

That game was about two years ago so I don't remember much from it but I looked at your ISO and mine. Couldn't help but notice a couple of things. First, I didn't like your vote on Katsuki who was mislynched Day 1. Second, I had a weak town read on you Day 1 and even posted a reads list with you in about the same place I have you in this game. So the game you linked shows me reacting to you similarly to how I have here with the exception that we've interacted more this time around. And that difference is probably due to you scum reading me.

I also want to clarify because I think something is coming off wrong. I don't think you are "bad town". That's not at all what I've been saying even if Old Man sees some of what I see and comes to that conclusion. You just seem to believe in different tells than I do. Hitos post I think pinpointed that in a way that I haven't been able to verbalize myself even though I was kind of thinking along those lines already.

[Kmd4390]

I see some discussion about my meta. I think Tammy is the only person who has played with scum me, but she replaced out fairly early in the game. My wiki is up to date.

Hmm. Quick skim of scum games doesn't show anything useful as far as what I was looking for. Explains why no one had an answer for me though.

[Kmd4390]

Why shouldn't I be pointing out what I find to be scum play in him? Yes, I know his claim is that he will be cleared tomorrow. Until that point I'm proceeding with calling him out for scummy play. I know he isn't going to be lynched today. But

I want my opinion well documented

for the point where tomorrow comes and the real possibility that he's fake-claiming scum. Do you think that's bad play or scummy?

That's interesting to me. By all means, I can see wanting him held accountable. And yeah if he turns out to not be IC I expect that he'll be lynched. But the bolded feels self serving. It's like you're waiting to line up a "told you so". Like it's more important to you that we know your stance than it is to sort Old Man.

_______________

Eddie is your rofl vote just because you don't agree with his reads or is there more I'm missing or forgetting?

[Kmd4390]

If only because this is kind of a mirror of my position, BUT KMD actually has Firebringer as a town read and not a eugenics null. But when I read this post it feels like he has my read on Firebringer, not his.

I do have a weak town read on firebringer. The difference between my reads and yours may be as simple as that I try not to have null reads. I like to be able to say one way or the other even if it's very weak or just gut.

[Kmd4390]

I get more stressed when its not a good case. I get even more stressed when the case is personally insulting and rehashing things we've been through over and over.

Also the bolded I can’t connect with at all as coming from Town. I relish having scum make garbage cases against me as Town as it makes my job that much easier in finding and hanging them. Not stressed. And the repetition should work on similar lines because Appeal to Repetition is a thing. And hell even if you think PJ’s slot is bad Town a garbage case isn’t going to move the meter without scum having to get their hands very dirty to push a mislynch behind it.

I find myself relating to Eddie on this one. It's frustrating dealing with people who suspect you for bad reasons. I get it all the time with my activity. I go to work and people think I'm scum because I haven't posted. Magna, some people are just more emotional in games and those are the things those people see before any of the logic you describe.

And then he jumps to my #214 about KMD, and characterizes this as some kind of...flip? Because I'm now expressing suspicion of KMD for his Eddie vote. He has seemingly missed #202, where I started to come around on Eddie, and also seemingly missed the entire context of #214, where I had been specifically waiting to see how KMD responded to Eddie's accusation, and KMD's response was super lackluster.

If our back and forth didn't satisfy you, why didn't you respond to my last post directed at you?

______________.

Ginngie's town read on Lycan simply for "making content" feels off to me.

[Kmd4390]

Mod, can you fix those tags please

? That's what I get for not using preview.

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until Friday

Last stretch of work before vacation starts at 11pm tonight.

[Kmd4390]

Ended up at the casino today. Will post for real tomorrow

[Kmd4390]

I'm way too tired to do this. Thought I'd be free sooner in the night. I know deadline is approaching. I prefer a Lycan Lynch to Axel.

[Kmd4390]

So deadline is tomorrow evening. It's been a busy holiday weekend for me. It's a geriatric game and I can't keep up so barring a change in my life of some sort I'm probably done with mafia for a while. I'm not gonna get caught up before deadline. I will absolutely try given the opportunity but I really don't see it happening. Got family over for the holiday tonight and we're golfing tomorrow. I'm not gonna spend that time staring at my phone..

I'm a VT so I'm ok with being lynched instead of taking a chance at outing power roles.

[Kmd4390]

Two scum games I found he tends to claim doctor, but one he claimed vt during a massclaim, so IDK.

pedit: Never mind.

I don't think I've ever fakeclaim VT on day 1. And I've played a lot of games. No reason I'd start here. Massclaim is the only time I'd claim VT as scum.

[Kmd4390]

Not really that haven't been posted. Kind of could see one scum in Axel/Rofl, but not for Rofls weird tunnel. It's actually more related to their stances on me. Axel's push felt fake because he called me scum for being busy, claimed he wasn't doing that, then deliberately ignores my reply. Rofl on the other hand seemed too sure I was town.

Ginngie and lycan are my strongest scum reads. I kind of think Tammy is town (oh I should post my meta thing even though I didn't finish it) now. Eddie is still town. Magna, meh, could see either way. Firebringer maybe town? Hito town. Insanity could be scum but I don't see any reason to lean that way. Pine town. Claims will sort themselves out.

[Kmd4390]

This was my tammy post. Didn't finish it.

So, earlier, I said this:

I was scum with Tammy in a game nancy modded and she played well. She seems to have the idea she's not good at scum and it does seem to stress her out to be scum, but "shit at scum" isn't at all something I'd agree with based on that game

and, later, this:

Note to self: I want to check something in Tammy's meta and need to find a town game or two of hers. Meh, I should probably look at a scum game or two as well just to be sure I'm not misremembering the tell I think I'm picking up.

Those things tie together.

Going back over that PT (viewtopic.php?t=72448&f=94&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go), I notice my memory is correct. Her reaction to being scum is a sad face smilie, and all caps "FATIGUE" post at the scum game she'd just finished, and this quote referring to the same game:

Yeah I worked my ass off, but almost nobody thought I did a good job, it was pretty depressing.

So my assessment that Tammy gets stressed at being scum, but is good at it, appears to be accurate.

Now, back to this game for a minute. I noticed some quotes that give me the idea that's how she feels about this game:

Spoiler: Tammy Quotes

Also if Magna doesn't pick up his prod and come back when he's one of the main reasons i even looked at this game and wanted to replace in,

I'm going to scream.

This is subtle, but it may be frustration spilling in to her posts.

I may be a bit rusty

I don't really get a whole lot out of early pages of games, especially when I'm not there, so there's not too much.

This shows a lack of confidence that I believe is more common in her scum game than her town game.

I read page four last night while laying down to fall asleep but I don't remember anything I read

My ability to be coherent is at an all time low. I could just grade people's posts I suppose, but that would only be slightly amusing to me and a waste of time actually. K, I'm gonna try to go to sleep before my lack of sleep loopiness kicks in and I decide that's actually a good idea

my mind feels very scrambled, so if I don't make sense I apologize

This reminds me of the "FATIGUE" post in the PT of nancy's game. It feels like when Tammy took the time to read, it was a lot of work and may have been overwhelming. I'm wondering if things like this come easier to Tammy as town. The hard part with this is that Tammy is busy in real life and some, if not all, of the fatigue may be from that. So I will keep that in mind.

So....things to check:
1) Does Tammy's frustration at drawing scum spill into her early posts?
2) Does Tammy come off more confident as town than as scum?
3) Does Tammy show any signs of fatigue or being overwhelmed as town?

The first game I'm going to check is the one that made me feel these concerns to begin with:

Nancy's "Girl's" game:

(viewtopic.php?f=23&t=72907)

Tammy was a hydra with Nacho and they didn't sign posts, so if I have anything that is Nacho's in here, Tammy can correct me.

Spoiler: Frustration

Spoiler: Lack of Confidence

Spoiler: Fatigue