Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[Ouroboros]

I would get my fix of mafia from spectating if I didn't need 1-1 communication to solve games.

:shrug:

[Kaede Akamatsu]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
VOTE: wilky

[Ramcius]

i was thinking, i really don't like this "Ram is expendable" attitude,

I'm really very sorry, but you are. If it helps sooth your ego, I'd be arguing we should use me if I wasn't a PR.

If scum decides to lynch you to prevent the cop on me, the positive equity is fucking insane for town. You haven't obvtowned by any means and you're not on anyone's I've got a hard-on for this lynch list (unlike Wilky), so there's no one who could conceivably weasel out of the quickhammer.

i'm not afraid of scum, i'm afraid of derptown

[Ouroboros]

Hold up because this is a lot more important to me than any flip

do you agree that I was not actually instigating personal conflict with anyone on D1?

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Hold up because this is a lot more important to me than any flip

do you agree that I was not actually instigating personal conflict with anyone on D1?

No I disagree, otherwise you wouldnt have entered the 1v1.

[Ouroboros]

If I don't contest them then Ventriloquist doesn't get lynched. I have to lynch scum. I never attacked ETL or Jingle personally, what else should I have done?

[Kaede Akamatsu]

If I don't contest them then Ventriloquist doesn't get lynched. I have to lynch scum. I never attacked ETL or Jingle personally, what else should I have done?

You know, show evidence like the one you showed to convince me.

[Ouroboros]

What if I'm better at yelling to the point that I feel like I'm literally playing against my wincondition when I try to make cases?

Isn't 'I will do my best to keep this peaceful but if you are actually going to fight me I will have the shouting match and I will win' the best compromise between game enjoyment and wincon?

[Kaede Akamatsu]

But I mean, several people in this game have said that you're without a doubt town right?
And you're so convinced that your reads are correct right?
So if your reads are wrong and town loses this i can pass the blame to you right?

Sounds like a perfect excuse for me to be lazy the rest of this game.
Just how you like it, playing on your own. No interference from the IC.

[Ouroboros]

What if you let me decide the lynches but you talked to me about the people that you were scumreading?
I am uncertain on the lynch for the day I have asked for input repeatedly.

Who are your scumreads and stuff?

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Hm? but I thought you liked to play solo. Hence why everytime input pops up you keep countering it and talk like only your opinion matters.
So, i dont believe you really want input, you just want your lynch.

[Ouroboros]

I think that if I have a super certain scumread on someone it supercedes everything else. My issue isn't wanting my own personal thoughts to take precedence it's that I don't want anyone else to be able to control town in the same way that I can control town because it scares me and with my scum game I should be justified in being so. I have repeatedly called for input on why Wilky was town, the input on why he was town was pretty bad, Jingle admitted that everything he said was bunk and it was mostly because he was concerned that they were a power role.

I shot down the input I did or it seemed to you that way because it was given in a contest control of town way as opposed to a giving information way.
I don't know what you want I agree with you that wilky is scum I think tchill is scummy but my issue is that I think most of the time only 1/2 of Tchill/Wilky is scum based on associatives

I am terrified and paranoid town who is always scared that scum are going to wrest control of town and force bad mislynches or that if I ever let go of the reins I'll end up getting shitlynched.
I do have a super high opinion of myself when I feel very strongly but most of the time including now I am rather uncertain and if I can get input that isn't attacking me or calling me scum I can use it.

But a lot of that unwillingness to let go is because I can never trust the game to townread me. If I could trust the game to townread me I'd be able to play mafia a lot differently.

[Ouroboros]

Like when I have strong reads I'm bad at selling it to people. When other people have strong reads they're generally a lot better at selling it to me. I want to be trusted to make the call on what to go with sort of.
Particularly when I lead on scum D1. Though with Vent i always knew it was a scumread that no one would agree with.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Everything i've brought up regarding wilky's miller claim you keep saying
Wilky's is a fake claim.
He fake claimed it coz his team did research on mod meta.
So... sure, let's go with that.
Because that's the only possibility right?
Since, every single time me or someone else brought another option you shot it down.
And since you want to control town so hard then do so by all means.
I'm tired of arguing, I'm tired of all the toxicity, I'm tired of you shoving your opinions down my throat every time i so much as dare oppose them.
Frankly i dont even know why im still playing.
But that is what you wanted no?
You wanted to be that kind of person, that kind of player.
So, sure go ahead.

[Ouroboros]

UNVOTE:

Ok. Can you do me a favour and bring up again anything that you think I didn't give you a fair hearing on?

[Ankamius]

btw

I have that same problem in that I usually have good reads when I can get them, but those same games are the ones where I have no ability to push them through

I get past it by pushing scum to build up a case on themselves until other town notice and push them for me. Then I get nightkilled for random reasons

But I also need a lot more time to catch scum unless I can get an instant bead on the game, in which case my gut generally catches half the team at least anyways.

so

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Actually wilky claiming Miller and the confirmed presence of a body swapper makes both millers like super town.

If the miller was a fakeclaim why does it even matter presumably the role isn't even an actual miller at this point gosh x_x

why would a miller be a fake claim when there's another miller claim (Dave)
It makes no sense.
Why would you claim miller if you arent one when there's another miller claim (Dave), much less if you dont know if a rolecop exists.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Actually wilky claiming Miller and the confirmed presence of a body swapper makes both millers like super town.

Explain this to me. I don't get it.

Ghost

Because if there's a body swapper there's no reason to fake claim miller, even if your role is actually miller with additional abilities you cant swap it out. You can just claim something else and use the body swapper to help you.

[Ouroboros]

Okay maybe I did a bad job of explaining this.

I think that GIF, knowing that he has a mod meta of multiple millers and knowing that at least one person in the game is going to know that, chose to gave scum a fakeclaim that was 'town miller x' on the principle that GIF felt like it was reasonable to give scum a fake claim of miller in a game with another miller because mod meta gives them a level of protection that wouldn't ordinarily be there.

I think that scum saw that claim, knew they had that fakeclaim, went wtf is this shit, dug through GIF's meta and figured out that there was a history of multiple metas, and chose to have Wilky claim miller with the intent of having me or someone else step in to prevent the actual counterclaim battle: and Wilky's stepping in not immediately saying I HAVE A GUILTY ON DAVESAZ but asking what the name of the miller is corroborates that.

That's what happened if Wilky is scum I think. I do not think it's at all implausible.

Also, with the Body Swapper thing, I think that whatever scum role had the fakeclaim of miller x would simply claim miller x and I don't understand why you think the body swapper changes anything.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Why is that more likely than him being an actual miller?

[Ouroboros]

I don't think it's -explicitly- more likely in the sense that you're thinking.
I don't think there's a single step of that process that is not the natural progression of how GIF might design his fakeclaims or how scum would interpret that fakeclaim with davesaz's claim
for that reason I think him claiming miller is not alignment indicative.

outside of the sole fact of claiming it, I think the manner that he did it belied him knowing that Davesaz was town, I think that his 'MWNN is scum and if they're scum then Ventriloquist is scum too', I specifically think the fact that he called MWNN out for a scumbuddy associative with Ventriloquist without ever expressing support for the Ventriloquist wagon was scummy, and there's lots of small tonal things that make me feel sure he's scum. He's also scumhunted very sparingly this game.

I think this is very commonly the way that scum!Wilky with a miller fakeclaim plays this game. I think the odds of him being town aren't literally 0 percent, but I think they're pretty damn low.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

So basically your entire reasoning boils down to outguessing the mod?

[Ouroboros]

outside of the sole fact of claiming it, I think the manner that he did it belied him knowing that Davesaz was town, I think that his 'MWNN is scum and if they're scum then Ventriloquist is scum too', I specifically think the fact that he called MWNN out for a scumbuddy associative with Ventriloquist without ever expressing support for the Ventriloquist wagon was scummy, and there's lots of small tonal things that make me feel sure he's scum. He's also scumhunted very sparingly this game.

How much of this is outguessing the mod?

I think that locking him town is trying to outguess the mod. I think that saying okay the miller claim itself is NAI and let's judge him by what he's actually done is the opposite.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Well excuse me if i misunderstood you repeteadly mentioning that the miller was a safe claim given my the mod and trying to shove that down our throats, never would have i ever guessed you were actually scumreading the person!

[Ouroboros]

I said that because the general consensus was 'miller never gets made as a claim by scum' so I was specifically refuting that argument. Maybe my case for why Wilky was scum was buried but I definitely made it. Hold on.