SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE

[Taly]

My take on it, as is my take on most early claims, is that I don't really care. I could give you 5 reasons town!pun makes that claim and 5 reasons scum!pun makes it, but it's all baseless speculation.
From my experience, people like to read roles and claims a lot more than players (see also: some of the chatter on espe/dunn), and it's a mistake early in the game. Shelve the claims, develop reads on actual play.

Meh... Do you have a read on their play, then?

I just don't get tonereads, as in, I'm not someone who uses tone to gamesolve, usually.

I'm very case-style, and that doesn't merge too well with current site-meta.

I'm having second thoughts on

Fire

. I didn't like that they minimized me trying to interact with them. I can't tell if he was playstyle clashing with me or overtly trying to dismiss me. He could've easily responded to my points, and instead he found reasons to state that I wasn't oriented to gamesolving. 84 - 87 and 88

I also don't know what to think about

Espe

and

Dunn's

claims at the moment. I don't have a strong read on either of them, and coincidentally, I'm leaning to the suspicion side for

Vax

and

Fire

.

Vax

because he's just drifting in the game and fluffposting; like an active lurker.

Fire

because I'm afraid I'm townreading scum, and he would be the first person I'd rethink.

If I had to number based off reads, I'd put them all near mid-range, but I don't think that's optimal.

How do you feel about these 4?

Ehhh... I have reservations of literally pointing out someone and all of us collectively give them 0s. If they're town, that's basically a free sacrifice for scum.

That's just a mislynch though? I don't get why you're opposed to this. Yes, if we hit the wrong target, someone Town dies, because that's how lynches work - and we're not usually shy about lynching. I've been thinking about it more, and I'm strongly in favor of having two pseudo-lynches today. If we don't do that, I'd bet dollars to donuts Scum rank people weirdly to fuck with the numbers behind the scenes. The reasons for doing it to save another scummate are clear, but they also benefit from keeping someone Town alive who should've died to the ranking, because they'll enter D2 as mislynch bait.

I'd rather not mislynch at all. If I were going to put someone at a 0 as a scumread, I'd be weary on whether everyone's doing it or not.

Is there anyone that has warranted a 0 from you, yet?

Fire: pings me, but I can't tell if that's because badtown or scum. I'm leaning badtown.
Espe: Has been pretty content to talk a lot about his role and the mechanics, but hasn't chimed in on much else. I consider focusing on that kind of role-centric discussion and avoiding giving any stances a pretty universal scumtell.
Dunn: Not a lot to go on, but seems genuine in the content he has. town lean
Vax: Town, as stated in my last post.


I get that you'd rather not mislynch, but surely you see that putting the two upcoming deaths in Town's hands completely is better than leaving it influenced by Scum? We should all just agree to 0 the top two vote getters for today. I'm willing to go on record agreeing to it now. I'll 0 the two top vote getters today.

How do I know scum doesn't want to give someone an all 0?

And why are you voting based on who gets votes by others? What if it was one of your poorly articulated townreads? Your posting is noncomittal and easy to flow with.

Re-read PP and I don't see anything that jumps out to me as particularly scummy, and I'm not going to re-read all of Taly's posts. I still think it's not TvT though.

I suppose if I'm going to endorse pseudolynches I should vote. VOTE: espe.

THIS is what I'm talking about.

>

You case a shit-ton of WIFOM on

Me/PP

>

You reread, and then weakly, weakly say that

PP

isn't scummy. But his post is what made you think this wasn't TvT?

>

You openly state that you don't want to reread my posts at all. So even though I'm supposedly this BIG question mark to you, you don't care to absolve that.

Instead, you push the easy-

Espe

-scumread.

There's just nothing in the motive of your posts that actually entail that you want to gamesolve or find conclusions conducive to aiding the gamestate.

[Taly]

Spoiler: Me Line-By-Lining TBGs 285, get the popcorn out people.

This is a scum post. Let's dissect it!

I'll probably make a longer post later but here are my brief thoughts:

I mean, you haven't expanded much on the thoughts you're about to go into...

lmao @ vax wanting to kill me for the wang claim - I'm not even mad, it's too funny. Vax is probably Town because I think that's a crazy push for Scum to make.

1)

You say

Vax

is town, but instead of telling him why his push on you is wrong, you laugh at his reasons. Disingenuous and clearly not oriented into gamesolving.

2)

Your reason for his push being bad is that it's crazy for scum to push it? What? It just sounds like you're injecting your own bias to strengthen your means of discrediting him.

Do you know for a fact scum would be crazy to push you? Because you're pretty blatantly anti-town with the reason posts.

I definitely see resisting the pseudolynch as a ProScum play - PP and Taly both get shade for this.

Have you READ my posts?

At what point have I EVER gone with the idea that a psuedolynch option is bad? What the hell? I've been voting and ranking and giving suggestions of how town should work together, and this comment heavily implies you're not even listening to it.

Chara's townread on me doesn't seem genuine - they've given themselves an "out" to it every time they've posted and I find it weird that I've consistently sat at lukewarm town without moving.

Why do you keep weakening all the townreads on you? Like, you're casting uncertainty and suspicion while townreading someone? Maybe you know they're town for a fact, but you want a free mislynch when it's optimal for you?

This isn't town.

Also, it's convenient for you that you talk about

Chara

when he posts about ME.

previewedit: PP's last post makes me feel that PP v Taly is not TvT. Dunno which one is the Scum yet, though. I'll catch that on re-read.

...Where do I begin with this?

1)

Thanks for the mid-D1 dichotomy. Must be great to cast as much WIFOM as possible for you, right? Helps that scum-wincon.

4)

2)

You never said why TvT isn't possible between us.

3)

You casted shade on BOTH of us WITHIN this post, yet you're going to imply that one of us is scum, and the other is town? Wtf?

4)

The whole fencesitting on us is fake; you're looking at an opportunity to push a side of our 1v1 that BENEFITS YOU. You've displayed no real read on

PP

or myself, and this comment is very, very destructive to town congealing.

Or you could stop being condescending in giant text? Seriously, it's obnoxious, and I'm already sick of you doing it.

I don't get what the issue is with using terminology if it helps convey meaning. It's not like this is a newbie game. You all know what it means

Is this your way of trying to downplay my intentions, again?

I sincerely don't understand what you're trying to get at with this. Clarify?

If you think using poorly-defined buzzwords like

OMGUS and LAMIST

accurately display your thought process and paints a good picture for town that DOESN'T cause uncertainty,

then you need to rethink your approach here, critically.

Being condescending is the last thing I'm intending right now - your 'criticisms' are not easy to understand or engage with, and the more you keep posting in this muddy-gray area alongside this, the more I scumread you.

[Taly]

3 page tops.

I'm good at this.

[Taly]

Me officially searching for that townbloc.

[the worst]

Dude be careful being Sailor Moon
her townbloc kinda all heroically sacrifice themselves from time to time

[Taly]

lmfao whoops

[Srceenplay]

someone who isn't me, give me your thoughts on 307

I’m rethinking my read on him now because of it.

[Taly]

someone who isn't me, give me your thoughts on 307

I’m rethinking my read on him now because of it.

Where's the direction of your read going? What makes you rethink that?

I actually think

DV

brought up valid points in 307 on

TGB

, and I agree with the reasons behind his read there.

~

DV

, now that my tunnel on

TBG and PP

has temporarily calmed down; what was your

original

plan?

Change of plan. The time is actually now! (Plans to do something else ended up falling through)

And what about

TBG

made you change that thought process?

[Shoshin]

I feel like it's pretty blatantly misreppy with the things I addressed in my last post, and that pings me pretty hard, but there's an amount of internal frustration/omgus there that makes biased. I'm trying to sort if this is town!dv getting overeager and viewing all my posts under his own tinted lens, or if it's scum!dv just trying to bury me

I don't think his case is misreppy... I had similar thoughts about your play re: 142 and earlier posts, but I agree that his interpreatation of the "pseudolynch" bit reeks of bias.

[Shoshin]

DV

, now that my tunnel on

TBG and PP

has temporarily calmed down; what was your

original

plan?

Change of plan. The time is actually now! (Plans to do something else ended up falling through)

And what about

TBG

made you change that thought process?

At least half the questions you ask give me the sense that you're not thinking very deeply about why players do things before you ask the question.

[Shoshin]

someone who isn't me, give me your thoughts on 307

I’m rethinking my read on him now because of it.

That's surprising. What'd you find compelling about it?

[Taly]

DV

, now that my tunnel on

TBG and PP

has temporarily calmed down; what was your

original

plan?

Change of plan. The time is actually now! (Plans to do something else ended up falling through)

And what about

TBG

made you change that thought process?

At least half the questions you ask give me the sense that you're not thinking very deeply about why players do things before you ask the question.

Not very true.

I just don't think and approach the game like you would.

I ask questions to help better my perception on a read, or the gamestate. Even if the questions were answered to an extent, and even if they seem like they don't accomplish anything. They have a purpose.

They help

me

gamesolve, which could help others gamesolve by having people spew content, and it allows me to work with other players more.

Just because I'm consistently asking for an answer doesn't mean I'm not thinking critically about the presented information.

And yeah, sometimes I can be very surface-level and overlook details about what someone has said, but that doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. Also, I'm quick to admit this, I don't have infallible logic, but I do my best to strengthen it.

~~~

But since you want to talk about questions, do you think the ones I posed to

Screen and DV

are valid?

And what are your thoughts on

Screen, DV, and TBG

at the moment?

[Shoshin]

But since you want to talk about questions, do you think the ones I posed to Screen and DV are valid?

And what are your thoughts on Screen, DV, and TBG at the moment?

The Screen questions were okay... though it's odd that you're confused about the direction of Screen's change given Screen's word choice ("rethinking").

---

The DV question was silly... it shows incredibly superficial thinking about DV's post. Like, DV had just posted that he'd have to explain his thoughts later - then he says "change of plan," explains in parenthesis what changed, and expresses his thoughts - and you wonder what the "change of plan" refers to? It's like you see the words "change of plan," ignore everything else DV wrote, and question him about it without taking into account any of the context that gives those words meaning.

---

As I said, I'm surprised by Screen's response to 307 - but I'm not saying more about this until I Screen answers our questions.

DV's probably town - even though I disagree with some what he's saying there's a very clear thought process underlying his analysis, plus I don't think he'd have pushed TBG so strongly if he were scum.

TBG has hints of town/scum. Earlier in the game I got scum vibes but the more I analyze his posts the more I see town - his suggestion that we structure our votes around roles felt scummy at first, for example, but on second thought it actually seems pretty ballsy a thing for scum to suggest plus it's the sort of thing I've seen town suggest before... I also liked TBG's response to 307 - feeling irritated that DV's mischaracterizing him is precisely how a townie would feel when accused so strongly (DV put nearly all of TBG posts in a bad light), and asking for others to weigh in instead of letting his own biases cloud his thoughts felt town.

[Pine]

ALSO STOP USING BUZZWORDS LIKE OMGUS AND LAMIST.

DO YOU WANT TOWN TO LOSE? STOP SCUMCLAIMING OR BEING OVERTLY BAD TOWN.

They're not (just) buzzwords, frand. They have legit scumhunting value.

[Dunnstral]

Re-read PP and I don't see anything that jumps out to me as particularly scummy, and I'm not going to re-read all of Taly's posts. I still think it's not TvT though.

I suppose if I'm going to endorse pseudolynches I should vote. VOTE: espe.

So Why espeonage?

[TehBrawlGuy]

(i'm going to do this as a string of posts instead of a wall because walls suck)

lmao @ vax wanting to kill me for the wang claim - I'm not even mad, it's too funny. Vax is probably Town because I think that's a crazy push for Scum to make.

1)

You say

Vax

is town, but instead of telling him why his push on you is wrong, you laugh at his reasons. Disingenuous and clearly not oriented into gamesolving.

2)

Your reason for his push being bad is that it's crazy for scum to push it? What? It just sounds like you're injecting your own bias to strengthen your means of discrediting him.

Do you know for a fact scum would be crazy to push you? Because you're pretty blatantly anti-town with the reason posts.

Asking me whether or not I "know for a fact" in Mafia is pretty unreasonable. Almost nothing is ever known for a fact in this game.

IDK if it's a reading comprehension failure here or a strawman, but I never said Scum would be crazy to push me. I think Scum would be crazy to push me

on the basis of the wang claim

and I think I said that pretty clearly.

[TehBrawlGuy]

At what point have I EVER gone with the idea that a psuedolynch option is bad? What the hell? I've been voting and ranking and giving suggestions of how town should work together, and this comment heavily implies you're not even listening to it.

Here?

Ehhh... I have reservations of literally pointing out someone and all of us collectively give them 0s. If they're town, that's basically a free sacrifice for scum.

In the next post you do say that you're "down for voting and ranking", but the above quote seems to imply that you're not down to actually pseudolynch based on the results, does it not?

[Espeonage]

I'm behind but I have work today which is good stuffs.

[TehBrawlGuy]

If you think using poorly-defined buzzwords ... accurately display your thought process ...

then you need to rethink your approach here, critically.

Must be great to cast as much WIFOM as possible for you, right? Helps that scum-wincon.

Oh, I see, using terminology is bad, but using WIFOM (incorrectly, I might add) in the

same post

is cool?

Being condescending is the last thing I'm intending right now

OK, good, I'm gla-

Have you READ my posts?

oh

[Espeonage]

Ok I ain't gonna read these walls but I am gonna skim.

[Espeonage]

By Taly:
"Describe "abusable", like an example.

Ehhh... I have reservations of literally pointing out someone and all of us collectively give them 0s. If they're town, that's basically a free sacrifice for scum.

If they're scum, we don't have adequate information in deducing their partners? Or at least, figuring out IF we hit scum prior to a deadline."

Idk, like an ability that turns a vote in to a 20. Or swap two people in everyone's lists. Shit like that.

[Espeonage]

Hi, this is a thing.

For my role, I need Fire Assassin to be rated highly today

And I am the antithesis, I need him to do poorly.

But that's cool bc he scum.

Missed this post

Is

Fire

your only scumread at the moment? If so, can you refresh my memory as to why?

Felt like the read on worst was pure fabrication, and the fact that Fire kept with it feels even worse.

[Espeonage]

I don't liek Reuban's list. Feels like a way to avoid accountability this early.

[TehBrawlGuy]

How do I know scum doesn't want to give someone an all 0?

And why are you voting based on who gets votes by others? What if it was one of your poorly articulated townreads? Your posting is noncomittal and easy to flow with.

I feel like you don't get the point I'm making.

Say at the end of the day, the players that are generally suspected are A, B, and C, and each gets very low ranking points. If they're close enough, Scum can decide which of the three they want to save, and give that player higher ranking points, thereby choosing which set of {A, B} {B, C} {A, C} dies and flips. Hell, if the field's close enough, they could boost all three, and we might see a {D, E} flip, which is obviously awful. I would much rather we just all agree, to, say, give {A, C} 0s and ensure they flip. Now do you see why a mass 0-ing limits the power of what Scum can do by coordinating their own rankings? Scum absolutely are going to coordinate amongst themselves - it's naive to think otherwise. That's why we need to coordinate amongst the Town to limit their influence.

I'm ranking based on votes because I feel the loss of personal agency is worth giving votes a tangible value. Votes were worthless before I did that, and now they have a tangible value in controlling my rankings. If more players did that, votes would become more important, and we could use that to scumhunt/gamesolve/whatever. Enough players do it, and we have a psuedolynch.

Also, there's no reason to call my townreads "poorly articulated" there unless you're trying to be condescending or grandstand, and neither is helpful or necessary.

[Espeonage]

Ok I did some skims, and this is so much harder without wagons.

It just kinda feels like there's no venom behind pushes without meaningful votes to back it up.

I don't get the PP scumreads. I don't really get most of the reads. DV's case feels like the only decent thing in the thread, but my support of that will get taken with a grain of salt because the slot just 'voted' for me.

I know I got pushed for talking about my role, but to be fair I was absent for 2/3rds of the game to this point and it was a crux thing. And on that note, how likely do people think it is that everyone in that group of four is town?

Anyways, moving on to stuff. I like DV atm, Taly feels like how I think I look when super in to a game town, so I'll say he's town too. Pine not feeling pressure to produce content right now also can be weak town. Dunn feels town as well, could have easily just claimed I'd fucked up but instead backed me up. That'll do for now.