Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Momrangal]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... sal_Backup

[roflcopter]

meh prodded

[roflcopter]

i can't read what i missed right now i will tonight

[Eddie Cane]

it was sarcasm mara...


i can't really engage with this game on a serious level when all 3 of the people i'm trying to engage are ignoring me and the wagon i hard pushed stagnated at 2 votes excluding myself with nobody explaining why i was wrong, its really hard to give a shit. we spent a month to get to this point

[Axelrod]

oof. Prodded.

So far, I've read up through page 10 and the last few pages and have been skimming in between and looking at VCs. So, forgive me for working with incomplete information but I need to go ahead and start engaging with people in order to get into this and get up to speed.
--
Axel did you ever explain why you weren't voting anyone at the end of D1? I know the KMD wagon formed quickly but there was quite a bit of time between that and your unvote off of Pine.

Well, essentially, given that I was one of the people up on the block for possible lynching, I did not feel comfortable voting someone else that I didn't have a particularly strong feeling about just to save my own skin. It is entirely possible if not likely that I would have voted if we had got to the deadline and someone was L-1, to avoid a No Lynch. But I just wasn't feeling the various options as they were under the circumstances.

Okay, this game needs an inflection point. It needs to be shaken up. Normally I wouldn't ever claim without real pressure, but we're four days from deadline in a slow, Balkanized game in which the only wagons of any substance are on Town PRs. Apathy and low effort have really fucked us to this point, so I'll come clean to move us along.

I am a Town Universal Backup

I crumbed my role in the following two posts:

It also deserves to be said that I *want* you to be Town. We

universally

work well together when we're on the same side. But let me

back-up

and say that my TR on you is derived from our convergent logic thus far.

Rofl you make me sad

There is no

universe

in which I am scum bro! So how about you

back-up

off my tits?

Bolding added. "Back-up" is gramatically incorrect in context, and is in both cases followed by a version of "universal".

This is what I was referring to with regard to proving my role.

So for Christ's sake, get off my tits. Get off of Lycan, too.

Kinda

like this. The first sub. claim is definitely better than the second, coming at post #154. That's still early enough to mean something at least. The second is a little weird for me, coming 1000 posts later, it seems very random. Why did you sub. claim again and, and if you were trying to show the first was a real sub.claim, why wait so long to do it?

[Axelrod]

I am wondering about the interaction of an IC and a Universal-Back up. How would/does that work? If an IC dies first, does a Universal Back-Up then become another IC? Does IC not "count" for that role?

I realize we have no IC in this game, but Pine presumably would not have known that.

[Eddie Cane]

No comment.

Already asked because Pine's PoV

This was my questioning FWIW:

all of the following are hypothetical

would you have a universal backup in a game with a town innocent child?

if so, would they be required to be town aligned?

if not, how would the scum!ub interact with the town!ic?

I tried rewording it though, still awaiting a reply

but they're NRG questions ~_~

to rephrase, do you consider a universal backup and a town innocent child in the same setup normal valid?

and to rephrase again, lets say you were modding a game with a scum universal backup and the first PR to die is a town innocent child, how would you resolve that?

[Axelrod]

Also wondering how it works with a PGO? Presumably the PGO is not getting Night-Killed, but only ever getting lynched.

Would a Universal Back-up show positive to a Gunsmith? I'm guessing the answer would have to be "No" despite them potentially acquiring the "Gun" later.

I''m not reviewing the "Normal" game rules atm, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but we're not restricted on the overall

number

of roles that can be in the game. Just the number of

certain types

of roles?

[RayFrost]

I forgot to mention but I'm v/la for the next couple days since I took last week off from work due to being very sick, I'm working more to compensate this week

[Eddie Cane]

Also, if you're going to post my response in-thread, you might as well post this too.

I do not appreciate you trying to eliminate in-game claims through mod queries. Play the game, not the mod.

the mod won't answer mechanics questions that are standard to normal games? This is me playing the game, a big part of normal games is setup spec because there's a finite amount of possibilities. That's the point of it not being a theme game. But, sure, I'll post that too.

@Axel, UB would not have a gun if they were still UB, but if a UB became a Cop and then was targeted they would have a gun if targetted.

If a PGO dies, yes, UB should be able to become a PGO. PGO's should also have guns.

There needs to be at least 1 vanilla townie, and a maximum of 2 roles greylisted - there's a specific set of whitelisted roles on the wiki, and blacklisted, and up to 2 roles can be on neither list. Past the 1 VT rule, every townie could be a PR and that would be valid.

The point of normals is normalized mechanics, which is why players should know how interactions would work, but some mods rather be difficult (not too uncommon) which isn't a big deal. Just gonna have to confirm who I message out of the current normal listmod (Implosion) vs the one who approved this setup and was the listmod at the time (Nexus iirc) and then get the answer through that.

Pine

, on top of previous questions, now that you've claimed what was it you asked the mod in pregame (1) and did you ask the mod anything regarding an IC after Old Man's claim (2)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

the mod won't answer mechanics questions that are standard to normal games? This is me playing the game, a big part of normal games is setup spec because there's a finite amount of possibilities. That's the point of it not being a theme game. But, sure, I'll post that too.

No, not really. If you want the Mod to spoon-feed you information related to the setup play in Opens.

Normals exists as the middle ground between Opens (all disclosed information) and Themes (where apparently Lulz wildness is now the norm). Predictable mechanics and expected information about roles are to be taken for granted but whether any roles are in the game are not. Good Mods generally dislike answering hypothetical questions about interactions when players have no reason to know whether said roles are in the game because too many players assume because a question was answered that means that Player X's claim is confirmed by the Mod.

Korts is well within his rights to say what he said.

[Eddie Cane]

Frankly until LYLO or the day before you should not be this interested in setup speculation in a non-Open game if you are Town.

No, not really.

Ever going to interact with my prodding on Tammy meta? You can either prove me wrong, which I'm well aware I could be because my experience with Tammy is limited and firsthand is nonexistent, or acknowledge I'm right and stop shading and nitpicking Mathblade who's a very "triggerable" (can't think of the word I'm looking for rn) player as you very well know.


And because I only have 2 more non-reserve posts today and deadlines soon,

there's a remarkably large amount of players in the vague townish/scummish region.

Old Man / OTM - town

-people-

Pine
Otter


those are it for reads with a degree of confidence, but


Though after an ISO, if Pine is town I could sub in Kison there. They are not scum together.

Still believe Fire was more in his town game, but him flaking knocks it down from the lock town rung. Mara town side. To clarify, no read on Mara's play, I've derptunnelled town them twice in in a row now along with scum!them once... I just tunnel Mara.

Day 2. Axel is still townie. Still being pushed by reasons I can't see, never mind agree with. mm. Biggest not town thing is how little he's done after flips with all the h y p e though I guess that was overblown.

CD meh scummish, don't really care about sorting it as its already getting policied sooner or later. Pretty bad stances.

PJ was still a scumfuck, Ginngie is still ignoring me. ur gonna hate me but town LOL

Magna is spewed town by Pine. His play appals me though.

roflolcopter i don't fucking know ? ? ? ? ? ? he's really damn townie on tone but really shit on pushes

guess this puts me at like

{EC, OM, OTM}
~gap.php~
{Mara, Ginngie, Axel}
{Magna}
~gap.php~
{Kison, Rofl}
{Ray}
~gap.php~
{Pine}
~gap.php~
{Otter}

So realistically, there's at least 2 scum in the bottom 5 and once we hit em they'll be assoications etc.

willing to vote Lycan, Pine, Ginngie, Magna rn

if it wasn't clear, this should have had a winky face to indicate humor. just my way of expressing how miserable playing is when people ignore me. this does not reflect my reads. my lynch pool today is {Kison, Rofl, Ray, Pine, Otter} with preference stated. if you want to play "optimally" and not lynch in the PR claims, I would rather do Ray since it needs to get policied eventually anyways than Kison who's town if Pine's scum 99% of the time, but meh. Or, we lynch Otter, let Pine get a result if its a cop and then lynch Pine day 3.

please, fr, not another month long day phase tomorrow.



things I still want responses to:

directly implies you were in danger of being lynched here, but your wagon in that game was bigger than your wagon has ever been here, and first babyclaiming (which in itself I am not calling unreasonable, just the fact you pulled it in one of two congruent games) followed by PR softing after 1 or 2 votes... what? I don't think you ever had a wagon bigger than a couple votes D1 either.

what was very different between the two toxic, apathetic cesspools of subs?

anyone who knows Magna, is he one of the players that tends to intentionally play dumb as scum or is he more Jingle-esque in playing "pro-town"?

(above at everyone)
and a follow up, anyone know if Pine's crumbed as scum before? distinction between real role (scum!ub crumbing ub) and fakeclaim (scum!x crumbing ub with x being any other role lol.) though both are helpful.

Ginngie what are you thinking WRT Lycan slot? Hard meta defense into vote is odd.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ever going to interact with my prodding on Tammy meta?

I had some words for magna but just deleted it, w.e. if you arent going to acknowledge being wrong I'd appreciate you limit how much you address me. I'm bad at ignoring people.

Make up you mind. I really don't have a bunch of patience for passive aggressive bullshit.

Frankly I'm at the point where like Radiant and Math I'm happy to draw my read on you indirectly because I'm not really interested in working with someone who clearly thinks he's much better at Mafia than me and is "appalled" at my play even if I think they are Town.

And I'm clearly not there with you given that you were a solid scum read for Hito and in a world where Lycan is Town you make tons of sense for the reason he's pushing up daisies.

[OnTheMark]

:/ I don’t think I am better than anyone at mafia especially as town. That doesn’t mean I still don’t believe my read on you.

VOTE: Axel

Let’s do that and discuss Magna tomorrow.

[OnTheMark]

Also wondering how it works with a PGO? Presumably the PGO is not getting Night-Killed, but only ever getting lynched.

Would a Universal Back-up show positive to a Gunsmith? I'm guessing the answer would have to be "No" despite them potentially acquiring the "Gun" later.

I''m not reviewing the "Normal" game rules atm, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but we're not restricted on the overall

number

of roles that can be in the game. Just the number of

certain types

of roles?

This reads like asking too many questions to seem active when 90% of this could just be asked to the moderator. There are rules for how Universal Backup works. This is a normal game. This feels like Axel is trying to avoid giving content.

[roflcopter]

unvote, vote: axel

[Eddie Cane]

Make up you mind. I really don't have a bunch of patience for passive aggressive bullshit.

Considering I've brought it up 3 maybe 4 times I think my minds made up that I want an answer

you were a solid scum read for Hito

This wasn't even true by EOD though?

his last interactions / acknowledgments of me are farms, talking about his meta, and

Axel also will have flips which he said he can do a lot with in some far back iso post so definitely don't allow this kinda hew-haw tomorrow. also focus effort on the defectors insanity (strange move off Lycan) and Pine (strange move off Axel). I guess technically also Eddie (but his defection was at least more forecasted) and Tammy (still don't think Tammy is scum but it's also true KMD wagon was more or less entirely birthed by Tammy not wanting Lycan).

and

If KMD is town and Lycan is scum, look to Eddie and insanity who basically let me corral them on to Tywin/Lycan is slow motion (again, with those instances I mentioned that looked like "coaching disguised as questioning") but were quick to abort to somewhere else. Similar argument if KMD is town and Axel is scum for Pine. Yeah, if rofl and I are BOTH right then that's too many other buddies.

So I was in his scum pool, but his only scumread on me is Lycan associations for pretty much the .entire. game. So if you think Lycan and I are scum together, great, help me bus him! or point me to one thing in Hito's ISO that puts me as scum without the association. Not to mention he's wrong, I left Lycan /after/ the wagon fell apart, but different discussion.

And while I'm rereading Hito, these are his last reads viewtopic.php?p=10213733#p10213733 lmao

[LuckyOtter]

oof. Prodded.

So far, I've read up through page 10 and the last few pages and have been skimming in between and looking at VCs. So, forgive me for working with incomplete information but I need to go ahead and start engaging with people in order to get into this and get up to speed.
--
Axel did you ever explain why you weren't voting anyone at the end of D1? I know the KMD wagon formed quickly but there was quite a bit of time between that and your unvote off of Pine.

Well, essentially, given that I was one of the people up on the block for possible lynching, I did not feel comfortable voting someone else that I didn't have a particularly strong feeling about just to save my own skin. It is entirely possible if not likely that I would have voted if we had got to the deadline and someone was L-1, to avoid a No Lynch. But I just wasn't feeling the various options as they were under the circumstances.

OK, but here's what I'm seeing:

Vote Count

(4) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Old Man, Kmd4390, Eddie Cane
(4) Kmd4390 - Tammy, Pine, Ginngie, insanity018
(3) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Kison
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire

not voting:

Axelrod

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

1 day.

Viable options included my slot and KMD, both of which you had expressed concern about pretty consistently :

And at risk of giving people new and interesting reasons to vote me, here's where I am on everyone, with the rather large caveat that a lot of this is based on early game stuff when I was a bit more active and there are a bunch of people I've only got vague feelings about. These are pretty rough orders, especially within groups.

The most Townish:

CooLDoG (I'm currently buying PGO, and that means Town. I feel like that is not a gambit that scum would be likely to make in their first post of the game. I mean it's possible, but not

likely

.)
Eddie Cane (I am currently buying what he is selling. If he's scum he's got some very big *****
Old Man (Even aside from IC claim, and annoying posting style, he's been all right. Rather large caveat: if he doesn't put up with the Innocent Child thing first thing tomorrow, he's gone)
Tammy

Morality chamber

(Tammy has almost completely redeemed the Chamber slot for me. I really like how she's posting).
insanity018 (asking reasonable questions. I "get" most everything he says, even if not always agreeing 100%. I feel he's a little like me, maybe. With a slightly less wordy style.)
hitogoroshi (similar to Insanity. I like what seems to be a pretty logical approach. Maybe trying to be a little too...tricky?)

The I do not knows:

MagnaofIllusion (Asking questions. Scum-hunting. Logical, which is all good. Except when he comes to these conclusions that do not seem to follow. And following rolf because he has a Town read on him is completely barf. yeah, yeah, he came up with his own reasons too! which were pretty trivial. Player I am most paranoid about.)
Firebringer (not doing anything especially Townish, but doing it defiantly? Hard to quantify, but not acting like I feel a scum would be acting)
roflcopter (my best friend)
Kison (one of the most under-the-radar for me atm. I remember very little about what he's done this game.)

The most worrisome:

Ginngie

petroleumjelly

(PJ wasn't great this game. Then he quit. I have barely read anything Ginngie has posted. What I remember did not blow me away me with it's Townieness.)
Kmd4390 (I think I already talked about him. It feels like he's been somewhat better more recently?)
Lycanfire

Tywin Lannister

(Lycanfire is another player I have barely read since he came in. Tywin wasn't great though).
Pine (my second best friend. How's the Pinecone?)

When/if I get the time/energy. I'll do some more comprehensive reads. But those are always more useful after some flips have happened. I feel I'm generally fumbling around in the dark until then.

Also, these are super hedgy reads.

Fast forward: You spend the rest of D1 trying to either defend your vote on Pine or defend your non-voting by saying that you don't want to just jump on another bandwagon. You keep saying you need to reread my slot but you never do. You have something against ISOs apparently. Then, immediately after the KMD wagon forms and the VC above is posted, this:

KMD is probably in the same space for me that Tywin/Lycan is, which isn't great. I could say, sure, better one of them than me, and that's probably objectively true - baring one of them having a particular power role - but I can't get excited about it.

I'm recommencing this re-read. But I have company coming over at 12 and then all bets are off.

If you're town, absolutely anyone is better than you. It seems pretty clear here that you were trying to avoid having to take a stance.

I was starting to regret replacing into this game but I feel pretty good about this. VOTE: Axelrod

[Eddie Cane]

:/ I don’t think I am better than anyone at mafia especially as town. That doesn’t mean I still don’t believe my read on you.

VOTE: Axel

Let’s do that and discuss Magna tomorrow.

.why.



~

Nexus answered me. Innocent Child is considered a passive role, and UB only inherits active roles, ergo scum!UB and IC could coexist. All I wanted Korts buddy sorry I annoyed you though

More concerned with what Pine thought at the time of the IC claim.

[Kison]

Pine, that's a stellar case you've laid out there. You almost had me persuaded but I think I'm gonna have to hold off on joining you.

I hate to break it to you but you didn't prove your role. Anyone could toss out light breadcrumbs like that. The only way to prove that you actually have that role conclusively is for a power role to die first & you demonstrate you've gained their ability. And that doesn't even prove you're town.

Why you would choose to start revealing this when you did is baffling.

Sorry, Kison, I guess you answered that in part, but I don't see from your POV why Pine is a better vote

I don't know that he's better. These game days are incredibly long so I'm constantly feeling things out here since I don't know anything. We got to see Pine under some pressure. It wasn't very reassuring.

UNVOTE: Pine
VOTE: Axelrod

That's five by my count.

[OnTheMark]

:/ I don’t think I am better than anyone at mafia especially as town. That doesn’t mean I still don’t believe my read on you.

VOTE: Axel

Let’s do that and discuss Magna tomorrow.

.why.



~

Nexus answered me. Innocent Child is considered a passive role, and UB only inherits active roles, ergo scum!UB and IC could coexist. All I wanted Korts buddy sorry I annoyed you though

More concerned with what Pine thought at the time of the IC claim.

Because Axelrod is saying a lot of words that are unnecessary trying to create apathy. I explained why in the next post.

Does anyone know why wagons magically follow my suggestions? It’s weird and I am not used to it.

[Pine]

Frankly, I do not believe Old Man's claim. However, it is easily proveable, and when he doesn't deliver D2 we lynch him then. If it's true? Great, we have an IC. Moving on.

VOTE: Axelrod

I agree the "move" is "wait for OM to prove his IC claim."

But then there's some other stuff.

Yeah, this. And rope if he's not an IC.

@Eddie

I never believed it. It was transparently a fakeclaim, but one which necessitated letting him play out the day. I didn't bother checking it for consistency with my role, because I didn't believe it was real.

[roflcopter]

i still read an axel/pine scumteam for what its worth

[Momrangal]

I want the hammer!

Still reading the ever growing d2

[Ginngie]

Axel at 5 votes lol

VOTE: Axel

do et