Open 730: Donner Party [Terminado]

[AP]

VOTE: Marsh
Gut

YAAAAY! I WON!!!!

Explanation: I've been playing a secret game of chicken with Mathdino (only he didn't know about it). I wanted him to post first in this game and I WON!

That said...

VOTE: AP

I know this gets most of you guys fired up, so I'd say RVS is officially OVER!

[AP]

ManateeDude, may I ask you to get an avatar? It makes it easier to read the thread, and allows us to put an avatar on your name.

I'll get to that asap.

Question: are we hypoing?

Hypoing? As in HYYYYYYYYYYYPE? If so, yes we are

Hypoclaiming

Ex "If I am the cop, MM is town."

Cool! If I'm the Vig I'll burp once if I ate Town and twice if I ate Scum. If targeted the SK (they are 1-shot NK immune) I'll cry from my aching tooth. (I'll probably need to see a dentist in that case, so get my medical insurance card ready). I'll fart if I manage to eat the SK in my second attempt. (I think that's clear enough)

[AP]

Hypoclaiming is to allow you to give results as a PR without giving away your PR status

Except if you clear any of the 3 anti-town players you are telling one or two of them you're not the Cop.

But there's this little thing I want to note right now: There is NO COP! It's a GUNSMITH. This means our investigative can return up to 4 guilties, but one of them is fake (the Vig will return a positive result as well as the Mafia/SK).

I also saw someone mentioning a Roleblocker, and I really hope that was a typo. Otherwise I'd assume someone's playing the game without knowing the setup or mechanics, which would really suck.

[AP]

Hello.

What's hypoclaiming?

Something we're NOT doing on the opening 2 days.

[AP]

MM and AP are most prob not in a team together.

@MM: It WORKED! You're a GENIUS!

[AP]

I also saw someone mentioning a Roleblocker, and I really hope that was a typo. Otherwise I'd assume

someone

's playing the game without knowing the setup or mechanics, which would really suck.

Me, why are you hoping it's a typo? Are you hoping it's a typo in the opening post of rolecards as well?

Hello! My name is Austin Powers and I'm

someone

who.. yadda yadda yadda

[AP]

Can you elaborate on 53? Tbh I didn't get it either.

It simply slipped my mind that we also have a RB in play. I only played this setup once before, and I was talking out of my

arse

memory, so I stand corrected.

As for the GS, Sando already explained. Obviously you

can

consider the Dietician a "Cop" if you insist, but then consider the Vig to have a a "Miller" modifier. However, the wiki page for this setup opted to call the Dietician a Gunsmith for ease. I mean, why go through the longer and more complicated route describing the role if we're going to reach the same point (which is they get a positive result on all killing roles including the town's own)?

[AP]

I have an idea (which I think is good) to satisfy both those who are for the hypoclaim and those against it.

First and foremost, the GS does NOT need to claim, crumb or hint anything before D3. If they flip on D3 or later we should be able to tell whom they've cleared going through their ISO (If they had a guilty, wait for later..)

Now let's assume we have 3 kills from N1. One would be the SK's, one is the Mafia's and the 3rd is ours. Now w/o the need for someone specific to step forward and call for it, we simply assume the first body is confirmed Mafia (hypo assumption). We then each state whom we think their mos likely partner is and why.

Then we repeat for 2nd and 3rd bodies. now here's the catch: If the Vigilante did eat a Mafioso (they will know) we are giving them advice on whom to target on N2. The same also applies if the SK did (although obviously the SK wouldn't want to get both Mafioso's out of the game so quickly, unless they suspect they ate a PR and want to know which.. )

The Dietician will also be part of the discussion, and IF they have a guilty they could very well find a way to tie that to at least one of the hypo conf!Mafia of the 3 bodies. (this is still risky because they could be telling the Mafia/SK who the Vig is not knowing that what they have is a false guilty, and

this is why I don't want the Dietician giving out results too early

because if we're unlucky we are giving the anti-town powers not one but 2 PRs).

Starting D3 I think everyone can work out what's best. I mean, if there are only 2 kills on N2 and/or if the Vig manages to eat the SK or a Mafioso who had already eaten someone and they see that outing the alignments they know will help the town minimize the lynch pool then by all means they should tell us what they've got, but since that's another can of worms and there are way too many possibilities for me to detail here I am just leaving it at that. (and besides if I a, the Vig that shouldn't even concern you at this point because I'll be telling me what to do then)

[AP]

@MM/@Sando:

The hypo "2nd scum if X is scum" is just a way to provide the Vig with more leads IF they need it. I mean, if the Vig already made up their mind that's fine and there's no need to do it. However, let's assume I am the Vig (

again:

HYPOTHETICAL ASSUMPTION

merely to get the point across

). Now let's say I got lucky and nailed a Mafioso on N1. Now I'm stuck and I'm not sure where to go next, but I do TR someone and want their advice. The problem is I can't ask them for their advice because I'll be outing myself. So, I'm proposing everyone does that unprompted (which is actually now prompted if we do agree to it), and I will have got the advice I need from that particular someone I need it from

without having to ask and out myself

.

[AP]

But why not just ask the guy who you tr on whos scum? It will look like youre just trying to read the guy, rather than asking for an nk target.

OK. I'll just say "Hey, CJ.. considering X is scum who do you think their partner is? I'm just asking though, cuz I definitely am not the Vig and thus I don't know this guy's alignment, but I kinda want to assume this guy in particular is Mafia anyway, por favor."

P.S. Try to reread my posts to get the bigger picture.

[AP]

@MM/@Sando:

The hypo "2nd scum if X is scum" is just a way to provide the Vig with more leads IF they need it. I mean, if the Vig already made up their mind that's fine and there's no need to do it. However, let's assume I am the Vig (

again:

HYPOTHETICAL ASSUMPTION

merely to get the point across

). Now let's say I got lucky and nailed a Mafioso on N1. Now I'm stuck and I'm not sure where to go next, but I do TR someone and want their advice. The problem is I can't ask them for their advice because I'll be outing myself. So, I'm proposing everyone does that unprompted (which is actually now prompted if we do agree to it), and I will have got the advice I need from that particular someone I need it from

without having to ask and out myself

.

Basically, the "hypoclaim" in this case is your thought about scum pairings? Because if you mean that everyone states who he thinks could be paired together, including dead people, this is a very good idea. I want that to be done, actually. Is it what you meant, or did I misunderstand hypoclaiming again?

I only meant "if X is scum their most likely p is A, if Y is scum their most likely p is B, and if Z is scum their most likely p is C". HOWEVER, you're taking it a step better, because then if the Vig had shot a townie and is now looking for advise they'd be given that too. It would also help them because whoever names the person the Vig killed as a different alignment than they really are (and known to the Vig) the Vig can disregard on the basis that the read is not reliable.

It goes beyond that, actually. Let's say the Vig noticed a crumb from the GS. Doing this will also allow the GS to pass a guilty on yo the Vig w/o outing themselves either. GREAT ADDITION.

[AP]

Darn I see your point.

VOTE: LuckyOtter

VOTE: CJV

So, you voted Unreal because you failed to get his logic. That was fine. Then you "got his point", so you unvoted, which was also fine.

But how the hell do you now vote Lucky for failing to understand Unreal's logic and -instead- taking it the way you yourself had intended it to be??? If you bloody didn't see your own point until someone else pointed it out to you, how can you fault another person for failing to see it too?

[AP]

This feels like TvT to me

If you mean Lucky vs Unreal, I think so too. CJV isn't though.

[AP]

Can we lynch this guy already?

Not yet. I mean, I don't fancy lynching people for being annoying (Disclaimer: MM is

not

even annoying to me, but I'm talking in general). I like lynching people because they make sense -to me- as scum OR if they're confusing enough that lynching them either provides more info or prevents them from going to LyLo. Obviously none of these is the case here, so I would rather get CJV whom I do think is scum.

Now someone asked about the scum motivation about CJV's behaviour, and I say what's the TOWN!motive behind voting someone who did the same thing you did, only it was about your own talk which you both interpreted in a way that is different to how a 3rd person did.

Let me try and phrase it another way: Person A says they like amphibians such as crocodiles. Person B says amphibians' skin being used to produce bags, shoes, belts and what not in inhumane. Person C points out amphibians' skin is not used for that and accuses B of being ignorant. Person A then reiterates that

crocodile skin

is indeed used for such production. Person C points out B said "amphibians" and crocodiles aren't amphibians. Now obviously B was mislead by A's statement (who was also under the impression his initial statement was correct still). C restates his point that crocodiles aren't amphibians, and A goes "Oh! Got ya! I agree B is actually at fault".

Now, how does

ignorant

A fault B for following A's doubly-confessed-to-be intended meaning? If it slipped my mind that crocodiles are actually reptiles not amphibians then I cannot point a finger at the other guys who thought the same when we

both

have been pointed out to be at wrong. I mean, we're both wrong.. we both made the same mistake, and it was I who started it even, so if he's ignorant I must be as much ignorant if not even more.

Sounds too complicated? Here's a much simpler example: There's a claimed but not yet mod-confirmed IC. I vote them and push them claiming I don't believe their claim. Someone else does the same. The mod comes in to confirm they are indeed an IC. I switch my vote to the other person because "they wanted to lynch the IC". How does that work?

So, what I think is CJV voting Lucky there is a projection of his own alignment. In his mind it is "I'm scum so he must be too". Let's not forget this is multi-ball, so if CJV is the SK he thinks Lucky is Mafia and vise versa.

[AP]

What is your read on BlackStar? What is your read on Manatee, and why do you think he's being townread by some people? I don't get how anything he did was AI.

Nothing conclusive on Blackstar/Manatee, but I fancy the former as town for now. Why someone reads someone as X? I have no idea. Ask them.

Some of my reads are pure gut. Some are meta-based. Some are a mix of both, and some are for specific reasons. I currently am most interested in CJV as his disappearance under pressure is a semi-meta reason for me to further SR him.

[AP]

I voted UnrealSeal and told him I didn't understand his vote, and that

LuckyOtter already provided what I had asked of him.

UnrealSeal then tells me he voted LuckyOtter for being deflective in his answer.

Finding his answer satisfactory,

I switched back

.

So, if Lucky "already provided what you had asked of him", why did you "switch back" to him then? Did you agree that Lucky was "being deflective in his answer" to Unreal? And do you think that is reason enough when he had "already provided what

you

had asked of him"?

[AP]

Please tell me you just set a trap and you got MM

So, you think MM is caught scum?? If so, do you think MM & Lucky are of the same alignment?

[AP]

About the Night action: 1 NK only either means (a) Mafia hit the SK & Vig got RB'd, (b) Vig hit the SK & Mafia got RB'd, (c) both SK & Mafia targeted Blackstar & Vig got RB'd (can't see the town Vig targeting Blackstar to be honest), (d) Someone holstered (and you can repeat all possibilities for where the other NK went).

Basically, the RB needs to target someone other than their N1 target and the Vig needs to retry on the same target (unless they get a clue their target on N1 isn't the SK).

Obviously, at this point the Vig doesn't know whether to complain about the toothache or moan their luck of being the RB's target.

OK,

gun to my head

I'd say Unreal is the other Mafioso and OkaPoka "maybe" the SK (who didn't submit a kill).

P-edit: Maybe Manatee's got a point.. maybe not. I'll hold off my vote for now.

[AP]

@Eragon: No joke there, mate. It's more accurate to call the Dietician a Gunsmith than a Vop (the wiki page does). The RB though was a mistake on my part. I forgot we also have a Roleblocker.

Also, what makes you think MM spewed me town? I mean, it could've been a distancing move. Or I could be the SK. I have yet to read the rest of your reads, but I found me at the top so I commented on that first.

P-edit: That's

not

the way to get N_M talking. If you want him to talk you need to ask him nicely.

[AP]

@AP I don't see MM using this tone for distancing against a buddy.
I could be wrong, but I highly, highly doubt it

OK.. and I'm not saying you're wrong. I just wanted to know exactly how your brain works so I can get a better read on your slot. (As you may have realized, Mathdino didn't do jack shit before he was replaced)

[AP]

Regarding Sando: I have him down as 100% Town. I did a reread during the night and concluded he can neither be the SK nor MM's partner.

Regarding Unreal: I can see him posting that EoD post after the hammer. It could be out of frustration he was too late to save his partner. It could also be "I'm sorry I couldn't get on the wagon for town credit, and I need to justify that".

Regarding the SK (whoever that might be): It is highly likely they are now known by either the Mafia or the Vig. The fact we only had one NK (i.e. 2 NKs were blocked) = someone hit the SK. Unless the SK themselves didn't kill, or both the SK and the Mafia targeted Blackstar; there's a missing NK even with the RB blocking one of the Vig/Mafia. This means the SK is likely going down tonight. (Funny fact: That would be less likely if we lynched the second Mafia today, in case it was them who tried to eat the SK last night).

[AP]

About the Night action: 1 NK only either means (a) Mafia hit the SK & Vig got RB'd, (b) Vig hit the SK & Mafia got RB'd, (c) both SK & Mafia targeted Blackstar & Vig got RB'd (can't see the town Vig targeting Blackstar to be honest), (d) Someone holstered (and you can repeat all possibilities for where the other NK went).

So I think you're saying this here already, but 100% the SK targeted Black, the SK is one-shot immune from RB as well as getting NKd, so there's no way to stop the SK kill N1 if they're alive, which they are.

So either
1) Maf and SK had the same target
2) The roleblocker blocked the goon

Although not quite the same, these posts are related so I'm responding to them both in one go:

Assuming the RB blocked the Goon, where is the Vig's kill?? (It must've been on nthe SK in this case).
However, it could be the other way around, and the RB actually blocked the Vig and thus it was the Goon who targeted the SK. (trust me, it's a valid assumption).
A third is the SK DID NOT ACT. This is pretty unlikely though because even if it was OkaPoka (the one person that replaced in during the night) they had enough time to read the game (just 10 pages), and even at the worst case they could've just submitted a random kill (No reason not to. There's no tracker/watcher/motion detector/follower/PGO/redirector.. etc. so there's absolutely no danger in killing someone literally based on a dice roll)

[AP]

so you think that the post I quoted from Seal was a deliberate town cred grab?

It could've been, yes. OR (as I said) it could've been out of frustration he wasn't early enough to try and save his p.

[AP]

Regarding Sando: I have him down as 100% Town. I did a reread during the night and concluded he can neither be the SK nor MM's partner.

Regarding Unreal: I can see him posting that EoD post after the hammer. It could be out of frustration he was too late to save his partner. It could also be "I'm sorry I couldn't get on the wagon for town credit, and I need to justify that".

Regarding the SK (whoever that might be): It is highly likely they are now known by either the Mafia or the Vig. The fact we only had one NK (i.e. 2 NKs were blocked) = someone hit the SK. Unless the SK themselves didn't kill, or both the SK and the Mafia targeted Blackstar; there's a missing NK even with the RB blocking one of the Vig/Mafia. This means the SK is likely going down tonight. (Funny fact: That would be less likely if we lynched the second Mafia today, in case it was them who tried to eat the SK last night).

so you think vig shot n1?

Maybe they did.. maybe they didn't. If I was them I would have.

[AP]

What could be a possibility is Scum!Sando who attacked SK!Ejji and is trying to get Ejji lynched before they come back

Why would I go for the lynch in this scenario? Mafia hitting SK just sit quietly, and then re-kill the SK that night.

Ahem, you both suck at playing Scum, don't you.

No offense, but both the SK and the Goon need each other now. Even if they identify each other neither's gonna want to kill the other today/tonight. They need each other's help overcoming at least 2 of the 3 PRs before they start thinking of turning on each other.

[AP]

@AP

could you explain your top tier TR on Sando?

I'd rather call it a meta-gut mix, but if you ISO him you might actually see he's sticking his neck out too far he can't be the stand-alone scum (SK), and while he didn't push MM much he did specify him as one of two possible scums and never actually defended him or tried to redirect the pressure off him.

[AP]

:think:

so either way it results in him being scum?

"Likely" Scum. Yes.

[AP]

Regarding Sando: I have him down as 100% Town. I did a reread during the night and concluded he can neither be the SK nor MM's partner.

Regarding Unreal: I can see him posting that EoD post after the hammer. It could be out of frustration he was too late to save his partner. It could also be "I'm sorry I couldn't get on the wagon for town credit, and I need to justify that".

Regarding the SK (whoever that might be): It is highly likely they are now known by either the Mafia or the Vig. The fact we only had one NK (i.e. 2 NKs were blocked) = someone hit the SK. Unless the SK themselves didn't kill, or both the SK and the Mafia targeted Blackstar; there's a missing NK even with the RB blocking one of the Vig/Mafia. This means the SK is likely going down tonight. (Funny fact: That would be less likely if we lynched the second Mafia today, in case it was them who tried to eat the SK last night).

so you think vig shot n1?

Maybe they did.. maybe they didn't. If I was them I would have.

if im reading this right there is a chance you have a chance at knowing who sk is then right?

Theory talk (because this is getting too obvious anyway):

1- You're

assuming

I'm the Vig (and I'm neither confirming nor denying this)
2- Based on that assumption you're assuming I acknowledge having acted last night

The answer to your question is still "maybe, maybe not", because even if I was the Vig I don't know whether I targeted the SK or the RB targeted me.

So, assuming I am the Vig (still hypothetical assumption) I am sure to retarget my N1 target tonight. The RB should

change their target

tonight.

If I'm not the Vig, the RB still needs to change their target tonight, and the Vig still needs to retarget their N1 target.

[AP]

I'll sleep on this for tonight, and see who says what (of those who still didn't post today) when I login next, then decide. GN everyone.

[AP]

Thats what I think made them buddies, some soft pushing for some easy towncred.

But at the time MM wasn't in any serious trouble, and if it was for Town cred then he should've joined the wagon when it started to grow. If he didn't intend for it to be a bus then he could've defended him some.

[AP]

@CJV: Really?? You know, after my reread and by association and "best guessing" ..etc I had ruled you out of being anti-town despite not particularly liking your posts of D1. You faking total ignorance here still rubs me the wrong way and I can't be too sure you're not the Mafia/SK after all.

@Oka: I have been coming from the PoV Vig always shoots here, since it is an "investigative vig shot" so to speak, but now I can see someone who holstered bc they weren't confident enough and thus were of hitting a TPR.

Basically the odds of RB blocking the Mafia/Vig are the exact same odds of Mafia/Vig having hit the SK. I don't know how to calculate the odds of a Vig not shooting because that's not explicitly a mechanical thing, but rather a reads and personality thing.

Now that everyone has posted in the new day, I would assume that the Cop got a clear on their target or they would've claimed the guilty (that would have eliminated one of the 2 anti-town NK's, so absolutely no point is hinting a guilty rather than explicitly announce it).

This means my lynch pool for today is in Unreal/CJ/N_M (in that order of preference)

[AP]

@CJV: Really?? You know, after my reread and by association and "best guessing" ..etc I had ruled you out of being anti-town despite not particularly liking your posts of D1. You faking total ignorance here still rubs me the wrong way and I can't be too sure you're not the Mafia/SK after all.

I honestly don't know what's going on here. If I'm being ignorant then that means I am ignorant. It looks to me like you already had an idea of what happened. Why not just tell me what I'm missing?

AP can answer for himself, but the obvious thing to me here is that you're ignoring the very real chance that Vig/Mafia hit the SK, and the implications of that.

I'm not sure what you ignoring that means for you being Mafia/SK, but it's a fairly big implication for us to unpack that you've ignored.

@CJV: ^THIS^

But I'll try to reassess and work everything out (i.e. consider all possibilities) before I speak.

[AP]

Oh. Then this means SK MUST have hit blackstar. The rest won't be reliably worked out until later days.

This is obvious. The SK is 1-shot BP and 1-shot RB-immune. Their N1 kill is a strongman kill, so they did kill Blackstar (unless you can come up with a reason for why they wouldn't shoot anyone at all).

[AP]

Oh. Then this means SK MUST have hit blackstar. The rest won't be reliably worked out until later days.

Yes, the SK absolutely 100% hit blackstar, the only other option is that the SK no-killed, and I see no reason the SK would ever choose to no-kill, at least night 1.

Ahem.. I'm starting to sound like a parrot!

[AP]

can yall throw some votes down preferably on n_m

Let me be blunt on this one: I do have N_M as a 3rd suspect. But we only have 2 anti-town players left, and we agree the Cop doesn't have guilty on N_M (or anyone else). If we also choose to agree the Vig most likely holstered, then there's no hard/soft guilty against the guy, so I won't just ignore my 1st and 2nd suspects and jump straight to the 3rd one.

Add that we're in no hurry still. We have plenty of time to talk, discuss and evaluate.

Now if you're thinking "let's pressure this guy to get him talking" that's where I said it doesn't work that way.

Here's an example of how to communicate with N_M:

@N_M: Hey, pal.. who's your best guess for a Marshal partner? Do you this the p bussed or was off the wagon? And what's your take on MM going down with his vote on CJV?

[AP]

Do you

this

think the p bussed

[AP]

In fact, here's an idea.. change of plans"

@Vig: Shoot the same target (if you targeted someone last night).
@RB: Block

the same

target you blocked last night.

If we have 3 kills the RB target is a VT and Vig didn't shoot last night. In this case the Mafia either targeted Blackstar or the SK.
If we have 2 kills the RB either blocked the Vig or the Mafia for 2 nights. In this case the Vig will know if they were blocked. Otherwise they'll kill the SK. (If the Vig kills the SK the Rb blocked the Mafia and we have our win). If the Vig is blocked for the second night they should claim first (so that the RB stays hidden, because if the town sees 2 kills they can't tell if that's the Vig's or the Mafia's, and neither can the RB, so the RB will claim and then if turns out they blocked the Vig we are giving the Mafia 2 PRs, while if the Vig claims first the RB stays hidden).

If we have 1 NK though, scum are tricking us (Vig should not holster at all.. even if you didn't shoot on N1 you should target someone on N2.. and I volunteer to be your target in that case if you have no confident scum reads).

Yes, I think it's time I outright claimed VT. Why? I'm firmly setting myself as a prime NK target anyway, and I think optimizing and synchronizing our work together outweighs outing I'm not one of the 3 PRs.

So, again:

@Vig: If you acted last night, retarget the same player. If not, just eat me.
@RB: Retarget the same player anyway, and then refer to the above chart to analyze based on the number of NKs

[AP]

explain to me the town motivation of posting only naked votes or non game related content

I can't believe you've been here for over 4 years and never played (or heard about) N_M's play!

Dude, this is how N_M plays ..

always

. You need to have a special bond with him (i.e. have played with him several times before) in order to start trying to guess if this is his town naked-voting/lol!hammering/semi-lurking game or his scum one.

[AP]

i played with him a long time ago and he was not like this

I play with him regularly and this is how he plays now and have been for as long as I can remember (P.S. This is an alt account)

[AP]

okay tell me, how do you discern whether he is scum or town if he doesnt talk and only votes

That would be giving away the only way I can actually read him in the future. All I can say that he's not showing his scum side here. albeit having yet to obv!town.

[AP]

I still fail to see your logic on sando AP, some light distancing D1 is certainly not unheard of, and certainly shouldn't clear them of being scum.

OK. Make a case om him and I'll reevaluate. Right now all I'm getting is "there's no proof he's town" which is the case for most -if not all- of us. His actions on D1 do not clear him, but do they condemn him?

[AP]

Why are the people not voting not voting?

Why are the people asking the people not voting why they're not voting asking the people not voting why they're not voting?

[AP]

VOTE: Unreal

I've had it with you. I already said I suspect you AND Oka, and I've been lenient with you for that precise reason: You voting Oka.

It now appears that you've lost your cool/patience and going after the person who seems to have the loudest voice is

strategizing

the PRs. Bad move, if for nothing else then for not having waited for the night to fall for you to kill me. I already volunteered to be killed tonight, Einstein. You would have confused the hell out of Town if you ate me, since they would have assumed the Vig did on my recommendation. But -of course- I understand you need to hunt for the PRs so you want to get rid of me via the lynch.

[AP]

@Unreal: You now need to lay down your case in the tiniest of details. "Bad vibes" won't do. GO!

[AP]

Do you guys really think unreal is scum?

I sure do

[AP]

It's not that simple. Y'see, I am taking a stance here.. being vocal.. so he needs to shut me up. He could do so by killing me, but I have also claimed a VT, so that would be him missing on the chance to PR hunt. Scum him is cornered and has no other choice but to push for the lynch of a VT and kill whom he thinks might be a PR. After all, PRs are virtually unlynchable because once they claim they won't eat rope without a CC.

So, yes, he would leave your wagon and try to start one on me if he knows what he's doing.

[AP]

@Poka: Let's imagine a hypothetical world were you are a PR yourself, and Unreal got the feeling you are one. Pushing you any further will get you to claim. That would be bad for him because that's one more mislynch he can't achieve. If this was later into the game he may have considered a CC himself and take his chances. A CC now though is not an option because after you flip he will still be lynched.

So, lynch a VT, NK Poka, then claim he has Poka's role when you can't actually CC (because you're in his belly already).

[AP]

Well, my plan is already in this thread. You can lynch me (it's safer than wagoning someone else who might turn to be a PR)

Now, Vig still targets their N1 target and RB still blocks the same target. IF the Vig didn't submit a kill on N1, please pick between Oka and Seal.

Now that I've got this out of the way, I'm just wondering if Unreal has any idea what the word "tactic" means.

So, I offered myself to be Vigged, and I'm scum??

The ONLY way I could even do that -as Mafia- is for me to have eaten Blackstar and he flipped VIGILATE (so I know I'm safe there). The problem is I claimed VT and there's a Gunsmith out there, so how am I going to explain a Gunsmith guilty on me when my only chance was to fake Vig??

Or maybe Blackstar us the GS?? But that would mean I'm inviting the Vig to kill me and thus playing directly against my win con!

Tell you what? Forget Mafia. Indeed, worst case scenario is I'm the SK . I still have no idea if the Vig already acted or not, so it's a 50-50 chance they'll hit me (according to my own plan). But apply the above hypothetical conditions (Blackstar is Vig/GS). If he was Vig I STILL DON'T BLOODY KNOW if he has acted, and neither do I know about the Mafia shot. I thus don't know if I have my 1-shot BP on or not.

But let me go down further and assume I'm taking a gamble here. I'm inviting the MAFIA to shoot me, because they know the Vig is dead, and it's best play for either of us to FAKE CLAIM VIG in this case. Furthermore. that still doesn't protect me against the GS (all I have is protection against the TB and the Vig).

I mean, anyway you slice it, I want you to come up with a scenario where I could be scum

who outright claimed town

suggesting I should be targeted by the Vig, regardless of whether the Vig is alive or dead.

Once you've done your homework and come back with a solution to this problem I will help you lynch me by voting myself.

GO!

[AP]

I'm town

Holy cow! An udder empty post of those and even I am going to start suspecting you!!
Do we have to milk you for reads? Say something and let's get the game moooooving!

[AP]

A fruitless endeavour

Seriously, mate.

I need your help

here. Five me something.. an overview.. a clear .. a guilty .. anything.

[AP]

okay so if sando flips town we lynch not_mafia

And now I know both of them are town! This, my friend, is called

lining up lynches

.

[AP]

I'm happy to say I'm not happy with the game state. Where is everybody else?

[AP]

sorry cant im vegan

Well then that tells me your hat is made of polyester and not cotton. Yes??

[AP]

I'm happy to say I'm not happy with the game state. Where is everybody else?

sorry cant im vegan

Well then that tells me your hat is made of polyester and not cotton. Yes??

Yeah, that's me paying attention to every single little detail, which means I'm town.

[AP]

UNVOTE:

I'll hammer anyone who get to L-1. Let's just end this game -that nobody wants to play- already.

[AP]

Oka also unvoted and you declared VLA (I understand RL, so not exactly criticizing that in particular) and nobody's bringing anything new to the table. We all have publicly known reads and each of us is stuck with those and no fruitful conversation is going on.

In short: This game will be solved by night action.

[AP]

Whatever!

VOTE: Sando

[AP]

Good v0te

I don't think it is. I probably just hammered the RB. I just wanted to get it over with.

[AP]

LOL @manatee having initially targeted scum on both nights and then changing their mind

GG all

@Oka: Now you have hard evidence this is N_M's TOWN play, and that he has some good reads too.