Mini 2017: Encore Mafia - Now Without Cults [Endgame]

[mastina]

Why would I, as scum with Kokichi, care at all if he's getting lynched today? He's dead tonight anyway.

Because then you have to deal with BulletNLynchproof as conftown, the worst as conftown whose track conftowns players, and an unknown third investigative somewhere in the midst that could guilty you or produce a hard inno on a prime mislynch candidate, e.g. Myloninja.

Whereas by letting Kokichi Oma live, you're allowing him to live into the night.

Okay. So from your point of view with knowledge I don't have, it's anti-town. Great. Why is this a point in favor of calling me scum?

Because scum want to know the roles of players so that they can salvage what is otherwise an unwinnable game for them. Denying them that opportunity is pro-town; trying to give it to them is pro-scum. You advocating for a massclaim is advocating for giving scum a road map to salvation.

Which is exactly what you'd do as scum when given a bad hand.

I don't think scum have been given fakeclaims:

Other slight modifications to Role PMs may include: linking to the game the role PM was originally from, removal of fakeclaims, references to mechanics specific to an inapplicable game theme, and edits for clarification.

Doesn't mention any addition of fakeclaims. And I don't see why they'd be given fakeclaims in a game where they can literally pick and choose one from their entire history of games.

It doesn't matter if you were given a safeclaim by the mod or not; the point remains that your claim remains the perfect fakeclaim because it is not a role which can be proven and yet it is a role which gives an excuse for certain investigatives receiving guilties on you.

[implosion]

Because then you have to deal with BulletNLynchproof as conftown,

...what? lynching Kokichi today is the way to STOP bnl from getting a chance to become conftown. This literally is an argument in the opposite direction of what you're arguing. The other points are sort of valid, but irrelevant. There's plenty of reason for me to play it in either direction as town or as scum.

the worst as conftown whose track conftowns players, and an unknown third investigative somewhere in the midst

I still don't understand why there's this mysterious third investigative. Or why I would know they exist as scum and would therefore be playing around them. I have no idea how you're getting at this mysterious theoretical line of thinking that I must be having.

Because scum want to know the roles of players so that they can salvage what is otherwise an unwinnable game for them.

I have a long history of advocating for massclaim fairly early. I asked for it in team mafia. Here's another great example.

I disagree that massclaim is anti-town here given what I know, though it could be given what you do.

When scum is given a bad hand, it's generally best for town to eliminate variables. Massclaim is an excellent way to do that; it allows the mass of remaining town PRs to coordinate their actions effectively, and systematically eliminate people from the unconfirmed/likely scum pool.

[implosion]

I'll also point out for anyone interested in deep diving me that I have a very rich wealth of recent scumgames to look into. I drew scum my past 4 games in a row. Every game I've played since team mafia (maybe except one, idr).

[mastina]

I'd also argue Espeonage and my play should be pretty clearly not scum-scum. In both directions.

Yeah no. Your Espeonage interactions and his interactions with you were actually

the cause of my townread on you tanking

.

mastina can you throw me a few things you find partner indicative between implo/koki? I'm currently not really sold but if you can throw some comments at me with your usual level of conviction I'll have another squiz.

Spoiler: Ask, and ye shall receive

That said,
VOTE: Kokichi Oma

This RVSesque vote on a scumbuddy is practically a signature move of implosion as scum. Early distance, which can be turned into a bus if need be but also removed and reversed into a townread as is convenient.

Okay.
VOTE: Myloninja

The only thing this could be in response to is:

Kokichi Oma

Awoo

speaking of bad reads

Alternatively, 73, because implosion has 71 and the only other poster in there was Marangal and her content didn't interact with implosion at all.

Kokichi slightly town at this point, Awoo could be scum, not a massive fan of his flip on Kokichi; it looks sort of staged for the purpose of generating content. 82 is not a good reason to townread Kokichi and it's the only post between Awoo calling Kokichi scum and town.

This is the opposite of the read he should have held on Kokichi Oma, and he even goes on to chainsaw defend Kokichi.

I have very mixed thoughts on Kokichi. My only meta on him is a game where I was modding where he was scum in which I think I had a pretty likely chance of misreading him as town had I been in the game, and this game seems to have no real difference from it. Yet I am also somewhat townreading him independent of that.

This is the definition of a scum fencesit on a scumbuddy.

Maybe kokichi should be in the scumpile, idk.

implosion's read on Kokichi Oma seems to be directly reflected in the thread sentiment regarding Kokichi Oma.

When people were focusing on Kokichi Oma, he had him as scum.
Once out of the focus, that was reversed into town.
When people had Kokichi Oma in their peripherals, his read was more in the middle.
And come D2 when people were expressing heavy suspicion on Kokichi even prior to the guilty, he once more has Kokichi as suspect.

Care to share with the class? Or waiting for something?

Nice guilty soft

These are basically literally identical "oh fuck we're caught" responses.

Great. So we can lynch kokichi and he can venge someone if town? He can announce the venge target in advance and we can get a claim and stipulate they be on the wagon.

This is already a

lot

of town power claimed between full tracker, 2-shot weak doc, BNL's role and vengeful modified babysitter.

Note that this was prior to BNL claiming the vig on Kokichi Oma but was after Kokichi's claim--and yet, implosion didn't vote Kokichi Oma.

Why didn't he back up his words with a vote?

I generally agree that Koki is probably fakeclaiming but to not lynch him today anwyay.

And by here, he's showing an outright refusal to vote there.

Also I'm shooting who I want if you shoot me BNL

I told Kokichi Oma to target implosion--obviously, he wouldn't want implosion implemented so he doesn't just agree to shoot thread consensus here.

Implosion is prob town, dont lynch him

This is because if implosion is lynched, scum lose tonight due to the vig shot.

Of particular note: pay attention to a combined iso of both of them.
Pay attention to how often they directly interact with one another. (They don't.) implosion

talks about

Kokichi Oma. But he doesn't

talk to

Kokichi Oma. (In contrast, look how implosion talks to town players. He talks to literally everyone. Me, Awoo, BNL, and so on and so forth.) It's mutual, too. Kokichi Oma doesn't really talk with implosion.
The closest you get is,

I'm sure you would, scum

man this has just got to be satire of the game state, right?

Me being sarcastic? Never.

...Which is an empty, fluff of an interaction; neither were serious in their posting there even remotely.

They do eventually get a little here.

What's your read on BNL?

Why does this even matter?

Honestly, because I think BNL is obvtown to an extent too and it's surprising to me how many people are willing to vote that way and that Awoo is sufficiently farther obvtown than he is that he's willing to vote there and force a claim. To me the wagon on BNL just looks blatantly anti-town. I don't know if it was necessarily scum driven, though.

...But this is over discussing a mislynch, and this is a textbook scum-scum interaction when dealing with talk about a mislynch. This is literally how you talk to scum as scum, especially when lacking daytalk.

Kokichi Oma's playing his scum meta interactions with implosion to a T; implosion is playing his scum meta interactions with Kokichi Oma to a T. It's a little bit harder to demonstrate the Kokichi side, so I admit this is mostly implosion, but that in of itself should tell you something here.

[mastina]

...what? lynching Kokichi today is the way to STOP bnl from getting a chance to become conftown.

BulletNLynchproof is conftown regardless of lynching Kokichi Oma today or not. Nobody's going to lynch him in the game, ever, regardless of whether his role is proven or not, because he claimed a

provable role

. Something scum would not be inclined to do. LEAST of all, in a game featuring this particular mechanic, the Encore nature of it leading to players being easily able to verify aspects of the claim.

(Note that Kokichi Oma's role is only proven on his death, so that doesn't count as claiming a provable role. BNL claimed a role which is provable with BNL living to tell about it the day after.)

I still don't understand why there's this mysterious third investigative. Or why I would know they exist as scum and would therefore be playing around them.

You know they exist because I, a town player, am telling you they exist. And if I am telling you that they exist, that means that they exist because I as a town player have no reason to lie about their existence. And your lack of understanding about this third investigative is

part of what makes it problematic

.

You DON'T understand how I could know there's an investigative unclaimed with an Awoo innocent yet have it not be me, but that is precisely the case. (I'd tell you how I know, but that'd give away the precise player for those astute and/or thorough enough.)

[implosion]

Alright. Let's play then.

This RVSesque vote on a scumbuddy is practically a signature move of implosion as scum. Early distance, which can be turned into a bus if need be but also removed and reversed into a townread as is convenient.

This is made-up bullshit.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75794
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=75509
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75388
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75603

Here are my four recent scumgames. All from 3-4 months ago. In 3/4 of them, I voted town with my first vote. One of them I literally never voted scum d1 despite 4/9 players in the game being scum. In one of them I was scum *WITH MASTINA* and *LITERALLY* did not vote scum once in the game. And before she says that game doesn't count, I was playing it damn seriously until Elli gave his reads list.

Actually, now that I look at it. Those three games where I voted town with my first vote?

I literally didn't vote for a scumbuddy in ANY of them.

At ANY point in the game. Ever. The one game where I did vote a scumbuddy (floral mafia) I committed to a scumread on her early off of the vote.

mastina is making shit up about my meta.

Her saying "this is the opposite of the read implosion should have had on Kokichi at this point in the game" is also bullshit. Different people read things differently.

implosion's read on Kokichi Oma seems to be directly reflected in the thread sentiment regarding Kokichi Oma.

There's a reason for this. Like I said, I don't have much confidence in reading him, because in the mini theme I ran a month ago with him as scum I thought his play looked fairly town; ergo I don't trust my ability to judge his play, and have been somewhat deferring to thread sentiment.

Note that this was prior to BNL claiming the vig on Kokichi Oma but was after Kokichi's claim--and yet, implosion didn't vote Kokichi Oma.

Why didn't he back up his words with a vote?

This is actually inane.

I didn't instantly vote for a ton of reasons. His claimed role can only shoot someone on the wagon, and I don't want him getting quicklynched with only people he doesn't want to shoot if he's town. I don't want him having the ability to selfhammer as scum.

This question is actually ridiculous, and you should be able to see those answers without asking it.

And by here, he's showing an outright refusal to vote there.

AGAIN.
I have made it very fucking clear that I think the better move is having BNL shoot him.
And you're literally ignoring my having said that.

[implosion]

BulletNLynchproof is conftown regardless of lynching Kokichi Oma today or not. Nobody's going to lynch him in the game, ever, regardless of whether his role is proven or not, because he claimed a provable role. Something scum would not be inclined to do. LEAST of all, in a game featuring this particular mechanic, the Encore nature of it leading to players being easily able to verify aspects of the claim.

Also bullshit.

BNL has claimed a provable role. The situation that allows his role to be proven is by not lynching Kokichi today. It not being proven

means that it is not proven.

If we try to prove it, it might fail; if we don't try to prove it, he can always be scum who wouldn't have actually proven it, and would have claimed blocked. I don't suspect him even if that happens, but he is not proven until he is proven.

You know they exist because I, a town player, am telling you they exist.

You also told me awoo was scum

[implosion]

and you telling me now that a third investigative exists
does not mean that i knew it existed when i was advocating massclaim
and it's absurd that you're pretending that i knew you'd said it already then

[implosion]

there are pieces of your me+kokichi case that have merit; I agree that a number of our interactions look decently scum-scum without the context of knowing that I'm town.

But 1, Espeonage, the *actually flipped scum*, looks nothing like that and you're kidding yourself if you think it does; and 2, every game will have some awkward town-X interactions like that. And this happens to be one of those, and I should be fairly clearly town from my interactions with espeonage and my meta.

[the worst]

Pine

--would be interested to see your stance on mastina v implosion atm

[implosion]

And before you say "oh, but it's implosion's scum meta to hard-bus!"

no, it isn't. The only one of my four recent scumgames where I bussed AT ALL I literally only did because one of my partners hard-tunneled me and refused to let go of it. I transitioned my early scumread onto my other partner in that game into a middling read.

I as scum in this game would have zero motivation whatsoever to champion the espeonage lynch when there was an ENORMOUS wealth of mislynches available.

[Ms Marangal]

Mastina, that crumb is pretty fantastical.

Do you think its that plausible that scum implo chooses which of town prs is his fake claim and crumbs it in the way he just did?

Furthermore I'm pretty sure hes had cooler town roles other than backup vig so why choose that one

[Ms Marangal]

Oh. I should also read

[Kokichi Oma]

VOTE: implosion

This game is so silly. I'm literally confirmed town tomorrow, no reason to mislynch me. If I'm alive tomorrow just lynch me. Pretty simple.

[mastina]

The one game where I did vote a scumbuddy (floral mafia) I committed to a scumread on her early off of the vote.

Yes, this would be what I am referring to.

BNL has claimed a provable role. The situation that allows his role to be proven is by not lynching Kokichi today. It not being proven

means that it is not proven.

Okay, then question.

Would you ever lynch a player who claimed a provable role D1 as scum in this game, featuring this mechanic?

I sure as fuck wouldn't.

Thus, he's conftown regardless of whether the shot is made or not.

Mastina, that crumb is pretty fantastical.

And?

What makes spectacular breadcrumbing inherently indicative of alignment?

Are you saying implosion isn't capable of it as scum?

I may be misremembering it but I do believe he himself has said otherwise.

I won't argue it's not a good breadcrumb, because simply put, it is.
I will argue that breadcrumbing is not in of itself proof of the role.
Roles, in this game, may indicate alignment given the game mechanic so I can't exactly use the exact quote of my saying, but the

sentiment

behind it, I most certainly can:
Roleclaim != alignment.

If it did, we'd be clearing Kokichi Oma.

Which is, quite self-evidently, preposterous.

Do you think its that plausible that scum implo chooses which of town prs is his fake claim and crumbs it in the way he just did?

It doesn't matter to me if it's a mod-provided safeclaim or he fakeclaimed it on his own. The points I raise about why it is a convenient claim hold the same; the points I raise about it being something convenient and flexible hold all the same.

Furthermore I'm pretty sure hes had cooler town roles other than backup vig so why choose that one

Well aside from the "mod safeclaim" angle (in which case why the fuck not use the claim the mod provided to him), if you assume he fakeclaimed it on his own, then the answer is simple:

He's playing to a scum wincon. He

can't

claim a "cooler" town role.
He can, under no circumstances, claim a role which is provable. (Because he can't actually prove it. See also, why BNL is conftown.)
He can, probably, not claim VT and get away with it. (After all, Espeonage tried, and failed, in this endeavor.)
He can, under no circumstances, claim a role strong enough where given the town's other claimed roles, his role sticks out.
He can, under no circumstances, allow himself to be caught by town PRs.

All of these, his claim is convenient for. His claimed role is a guilty result to half the probable investigatives in the game, making him a pseudo-miller; why the fuck would that be a bad claim? His claimed role can't be proven; why the fuck is that a bad claim?

and you telling me now that a third investigative exists
does not mean that i knew it existed when i was advocating massclaim

Oh really?

mastina, do you still think Awoo is scum?

Absolutely not, no, but I'm finding it hard to describe why not without giving it away. (It's not because of my role, it's not because of Awoo's role obv, it's because of someone else's. I wish I could give details, but doing so would out them. But suffice to say: yes, person, I got the message loud and clear; Awoo is town.)

Here, have my readslist without spaces. (I have good reason for not giving spaces; I'm trying to hide one or two things which spaces in my reads would give away.)

This is already a

lot

of town power claimed between full tracker, 2-shot weak doc, BNL's role and vengeful modified babysitter.

Don't forget I also know there's an investigative with a hard-innocent on Awoo.

Oh and then there's the investigative on top of that, who simply targets a name outside of Kokichi Oma/second-most-widely-scumread-player/the worst/BulletNLynchproof (all of which would be a waste).

If said roleblocker is on BulletNLynchproof, they are

not

on the worst, and

not

on the investigative out there that inno'd you.

And we should probably just massclaim, frankly.

So the suggestion to massclaim was made

before

I stated there was another investigative, you say?

Do tell.

Or are you going to claim you never read any of those in spite of literally over half of them directly involving you?

You know they exist because I, a town player, am telling you they exist.

You also told me awoo was scum

If anyone had any doubts about implosion, they need only look at this point right here because this is bad on a horrendous level. I forget what the term is. Maybe misrep, maybe strawman, but what it is is that he's comparing a completely different situation to this one as if it were equal.

I said that Awoo was scum on D1, based off of my read there and my understanding of Awoo's meta.

I am saying today that there is an investigative role with a hard innocent on Awoo.

Comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges. Actually, comparing apples and oranges would have more in common with one another than comparing the two situations because the two situations have literally nothing in common.

Stating Awoo was scum was a read.
Stating there is a fucking power role with an innocent on Awoo is not a read.

[implosion]

Yes, this would be what I am referring to.

So.
Meta, based off of one game of mine, ignoring several others, is now a signature move of mine as scum.

???????????????????????????

That's very much not enough to be indicative of me being scum. In the slightest. I'm sure I can show you plenty of town games of mine where I happened to pseudo-RVS scum. I will say the pseudo-RVS thing is sort of a signature of mine in that I do it a lot... as both alignments.

Would you ever lynch a player who claimed a provable role D1 as scum in this game, featuring this mechanic?

I sure as fuck wouldn't.

Absolutely, with his kind of role. It's absolutely a gambit scum could make to claim a role like his that's confirmable, and then do any of (1) claim roleblocked, (2) claim to have targeted the person who was nightkilled, (3) claim to have used a cop shot instead of a vig shot, (4) push for a lynch on the person they targeted with claiming roleblocked as a backup plan, etc, etc. It's perfectly feasible as a thing scum might do, therefore it's something that sometimes should be lynched. Again, I don't think this is one of those cases... but we have a way to potentially be sure.

I've been in *multiple* games where scum claimed vig. Granted, both of those games boonskiies was the one claiming it; but it is nonetheless something that scum do.

Do not call someone conftown when they aren't conftown.

I may be misremembering it but I do believe he himself has said otherwise.

I don't think I said this but I might have said something along those lines because I was thinking about it.

Here's what I'll say about what I think my scumgame would likely involve WRT the breadcrumb. There's a solid chance I would have thought to think of potential fakeclaims early in the game. It's pretty unlikely that I would have decided to crumb one. And if I did crumb one, I probably wouldn't have picked backup vig, which is a role that would have a high chance of looking like it doesn't belong in the setup.

He can, under no circumstances, claim a role which is provable.

Wait a minute.

Doesn't this disqualify me as scum, by your logic? My role is under some circumstances provable, and as far as theoretical scum-me knows, those circumstances (the existence of a vig) might exist.

So the suggestion to massclaim was made before I stated there was another investigative, you say?

Do tell.

Or are you going to claim you never read any of those in spite of literally over half of them directly involving you?

I read them.

I think that I thought the "investigative with a hard-innocent on awoo" was sarcasm, given your earlier stated 100% scumread on him. I remember reading it but I don't think I took it seriously. The others I ignored because I'm not taking your reads as gospel. And quite simply... this point doesn't matter. As I said, I very frequently propose massclaims as town, earlier than other people do. It's completely irrelevant if you think it's anti-town for me to do so. I do it as town. I disagree that it's anti-town. It's completely irrelevant as a point in a case on me.

If anyone had any doubts about implosion, they need only look at this point right here because this is bad on a horrendous level. I forget what the term is. Maybe misrep, maybe strawman, but what it is is that he's comparing a completely different situation to this one as if it were equal.

This line is me getting pissed off at your ludicrous lines of manufacturing my meta.

[implosion]

which is also why i clarified it in my next post

[implosion]

Like, re: the massclaim point. I don't understand why you think it's evidence that I'm scum when you have hard proof that I will suggest massclaim in similar situations as town.

[implosion]

And while I will thank you for getting me back into the game, I should probably step away from this at least for a bit.

[Awoo]

Well we are going to lynch implosion today. WAY too many words but at the end of the day I don't like the claim. If its real and we have a vigilante then wow 5 people are going to die tonight.

[implosion]

so uh, I just made a random discovery. Namely, that mastina has been a mafia night 2 vigilante before. I wasn't even looking for this, I was just looking at some of fakegod's past games and found it.

If anyone else has been a mafia vig before, please say so.

[the worst]

I can now comfortably say srceen has not been a scum vig onsite.

[Myloninja13]

I obviously haven't lol.

[BNL]

Hey, BnL. If youre JKd is your kill blocked do you know? Or does it still go through since its a day action?

Intent to start EnP when thats answered

Mod said that my role is being processed as a Night action (which is different from the game I got it from).

So presumably yes.

[BNL]

Implosion what do you think of Mastina?