OPEN 732 : PICK YOUR POWER X/Y (GAME OVER)

[the worst]

quuuuuuuu---

VOTE COUNT 5.9

Sando (1)

~ Ausuka,

skitter30 (0)

~

Cardi B (0)

~

Myloninja13 (0)

~

Ausuka (1)

~ Sando,

ofrhz (0)

~

NOT VOTING:

skitter30, Cardi B, ofrhz, Myloninja13,

with 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

day five will end in (expired on 2018-08-31 07:00:00)

mod notes:

- skitter30 v/la Fridays & Saturdays
- ---ack!

[ofrhz]

QUACK

[Sando]

@Sando

Sure but in retrospect, I can see how CJ was unusually town this game

I guess I don't see how AP was super different this game than his wolf!game in Jungle Republic to justify your townread, given your personal experience with him.

I'm not at D2 yet I'm only on page 20-something and tbh I don't remember how your progression on AP went down

Fair enough.

But to be clear, it doesn't bother me at all that someone "fools" me for 1 in-game day. It REALLY doesn't bother me if someone "fools" me D1. There's a certain amount of quality of content you gotta post to get me off your back D1, and it's hard to maintain that as scum, all I'm hoping to do is force scum to post constructively, which is hard to maintain over the course of a game. For reference, see APs D2

[Sando]

What does "turn on" entail?

What is standing in the way of town winning?

Oh wait you were serious.

"Turn on", to take something from an "off" position to the "on" position.

In specifics to Mafia, actually engaging and posting constructively and not whinging about apathy like I and a bunch of others have been doing for a while now.

[ofrhz]

if you're town, can you tryhard for like 2 irl days and not keel over and die like vl did

[ofrhz]

can you start with why you are (were?) townreading cardi

[Sando]

if you're town, can you tryhard for like 2 irl days and not keel over and die like vl did

I spent my Friday I think it was arguing with Aus and pulling out why their townlockedness was bs, and also showed why the claim that they'd "never claimed townlock status" was a lie, and I'm clearly going back and forth with you. I'm not sure why the snark?

can you start with why you are (were?) townreading cardi

Cardi was in the same boat as AP, I felt the content was going to be hard to maintain as scum, but I also thought the style was more likely town than scum. Music/Aus are my top scum-reads today, Skitter mechanically just makes sense, but us lynching town 2 days in a row like that with no help from Skitter!scum isn't something I can easily get past. Ofrhz is probably my strongest townread. Somewhere around skitter sits Cardi, could be more townie, could be less townie depending on how I feel at the time. I think last mention of lists put her around your level of towniness, which I no longer agree with, but not to a huge scummie extent.

But my focus is on Music/Aus until someone actually shows something scummy there, rather than just constantly being asked "but why townread?".

[ofrhz]

you've been more reactive than proactive since you've been put under scrutiny, so I didn't really count that interaction with Ausuka

---

I can understand the reasoning behind why you don't want to locktown Ausuka, even if I disagree with it

but to go from "ausuka is not locktown" to "ausuka is scum" is not a trajectory i am following. like ausuka's votes were pretty bad, but cardi's were not much better. Given cardi's reasons for voting invis and the timing of her vote, cardi's vote on invis shouldn't garner her any towncred imo

I think everyone alive right now has demonstrated ~towny thoughts~, so that is also not a good reason to townread cardi or to keep her alive. is there another reason why you guys are townreading cardi? @ skitter too

[Sando]

you've been more reactive than proactive since you've been put under scrutiny, so I didn't really count that interaction with Ausuka

Wait you think in my discussion with Ausuka that it's ME that's been the reactive one? What? You want to call Ausuka's posting there "pro-active"?

I can understand the reasoning behind why you don't want to locktown Ausuka, even if I disagree with it

but to go from "ausuka is not locktown" to "ausuka is scum" is not a trajectory i am following. like ausuka's votes were pretty bad, but cardi's were not much better. Given cardi's reasons for voting invis and the timing of her vote, cardi's vote on invis shouldn't garner her any towncred imo

I didn't vote Ausuka until she started lying about "never claiming locktown", the progression was:
Sando - Yeah Ausuka isn't as locktown as you're all claiming
Ausuka - Yeah I am
Sando - Nah, and claiming you are is scummy
Ausuka - I never claimed that!
Sando - Ahhh, yeah you did, here

[ofrhz]

The push on you started when you were asked your scumreads and then a couple of people followed up with that post. Rereading through it just now, it was a combination of skitter and ausuka delving deeper into your reads, which lead to you divulging your Ausuka read and that lead to the 1v1. It still reads as reactive tbh

I'm reluctant to scumread this inconsistency. It's very possible that Ausuka doesn't remember saying "the thing with AP townclears me" as town. As others have pointed out, there were many things that Ausuka could have claimed, and balance of probability dictates that she's likely town here.

I am still interested in your townread in cardi because she's been my top scumread for a while now

[Sando]

I am still interested in your townread in cardi because she's been my top scumread for a while now

Then outline your scumread?

I mean all you're going to get from me is "I'm more interested in Mylo/Aus atm".

But my focus is on Music/Aus until someone actually shows something scummy there, rather than just constantly being asked "but why townread?".

[Sando]

The push on you started when you were asked your scumreads and then a couple of people followed up with that post. Rereading through it just now, it was a combination of skitter and ausuka delving deeper into your reads, which lead to you divulging your Ausuka read and that lead to the 1v1. It still reads as reactive tbh

Just to be clear, are you saying "reactive" equals scummy here?

[ofrhz]

0. Brass was questionable. I outlined his posts that didn't make sense. Why was he super focused on Ausuka's presence in game but not Invisibility's? He also never responded to Bujaber's meta-read gut scumread on him (the read from Bujaber was basically: brass was more confident in this game, which is similar to his scumgames)
1. Cardi's scumreads have CONSISTENTLY BEEN LOW-HANGING FRUit this entire game
1a. She first scumread okapoka and kept pushing him for a part of D2. Sando, you tried to ML oka in your last scumgame, you should know why this is NAGL
1b. She then tried to go for Vulcan, who was also kind of an easy ML
1c. She's been asking really useless questions today
2. CARDI HAS NOT EXHIBITED TOWNINESS
2a. People who have exhibited towniness:
- Ausuka: her claiming 1-shot vig was completely unnecessary
- Mylo: Bujaber was really town, and Mylo has that carefree tone
- skitter: hasn't done stupid shit like push conf!town TW like she did in her last scumgame
- sando: sorta town by meta but also in your 1v1 with Bujaber, you were really town
- By PoE, Cardi's scum equity is pretty high
- ok, so admittedly this is mostly a PoE scumread. STILL.
3. At this point, with so many townreads, I need a good reason to not vote cardi, and "having logical/towny thought processes" is the only reason I was given by skitter, and that's not a very good reason considering everyone remaining has also demonstrated towny thought processes

pedit: no, I meant reactive as in "you yourself admitted you've checked out of this game, which I think is NAI. But if you're town, try to check in for at least a few more days to obvtown, so we don't have a repeat of the vulcan lynch"

[ofrhz]

ausuka likes to do wagon analysis before the flip, which I think has lead to why she has not been on either scum lynch. I don't think this kind of faulty reasoning is scum indicative for Ausuka because this is something she has done as town in the past. (the game I am referring to: viewtopic.php?t=76282&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go)

both wagons on invis and AP built up REALLY FAST, and ausuka tends to apply the reasoning "this wagon has built up too fast, which means it must be scum-driven," which would explain why she wasn't on either scum lynches.

[Sando]

pedit: no, I meant reactive as in "you yourself admitted you've checked out of this game, which I think is NAI. But if you're town, try to check in for at least a few more days to obvtown, so we don't have a repeat of the vulcan lynch"

Ok this first: Why does this need discussion then? It doesn't change content, like it's pretty obvious I had thoughts on Aus around the whole "locktown" and hadn't gotten around to articulating it. What I then articulate isn't changed because I was grudging about it.

[Sando]

ausuka likes to do wagon analysis before the flip, which I think has lead to why she has not been on either scum lynch. I don't think this kind of faulty reasoning is scum indicative for Ausuka because this is something she has done as town in the past. (the game I am referring to: viewtopic.php?t=76282&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go)

both wagons on invis and AP built up REALLY FAST, and ausuka tends to apply the reasoning "this wagon has built up too fast, which means it must be scum-driven," which would explain why she wasn't on either scum lynches.

I mean I know I'm copping flak for the idea that Aus wasn't on the LYNCH isn't necessarily indicative. That doesn't change that Aus didn't vote either of them, ever. Aus basically never posted anything scummy about them. L

Also, how then is the CJ lynch NOT scummy from Aus? CJ went from L-3 to L-1 in under 2 hours, and Aus hammered with nothing to say about that less than 24 hours later. How is that "wagon analysis before the flip"?

[ofrhz]

pedit: no, I meant reactive as in "you yourself admitted you've checked out of this game, which I think is NAI. But if you're town, try to check in for at least a few more days to obvtown, so we don't have a repeat of the vulcan lynch"

Ok this first: Why does this need discussion then? It doesn't change content, like it's pretty obvious I had thoughts on Aus around the whole "locktown" and hadn't gotten around to articulating it. What I then articulate isn't changed because I was grudging about it.

are we still talking about the same thing? i'm very confused

[Sando]

0. Brass was questionable. I outlined his posts that didn't make sense. Why was he super focused on Ausuka's presence in game but not Invisibility's? He also never responded to Bujaber's meta-read gut scumread on him (the read from Bujaber was basically: brass was more confident in this game, which is similar to his scumgames)
1. Cardi's scumreads have CONSISTENTLY BEEN LOW-HANGING FRUit this entire game
1a. She first scumread okapoka and kept pushing him for a part of D2. Sando, you tried to ML oka in your last scumgame, you should know why this is NAGL
1b. She then tried to go for Vulcan, who was also kind of an easy ML
1c. She's been asking really useless questions today
2. CARDI HAS NOT EXHIBITED TOWNINESS
2a. People who have exhibited towniness:
- Ausuka: her claiming 1-shot vig was completely unnecessary
- Mylo: Bujaber was really town, and Mylo has that carefree tone
- skitter: hasn't done stupid shit like push conf!town TW like she did in her last scumgame
- sando: sorta town by meta but also in your 1v1 with Bujaber, you were really town
- By PoE, Cardi's scum equity is pretty high
- ok, so admittedly this is mostly a PoE scumread. STILL.
3. At this point, with so many townreads, I need a good reason to not vote cardi, and "having logical/towny thought processes" is the only reason I was given by skitter, and that's not a very good reason considering everyone remaining has also demonstrated towny thought processes

0 - Fair, although same could be said of Aus who called out Vulcan for something while ignoring Invis, you're the person who called her out for it.
1a) I don't think the parallel holds tbh
1b) When are you referring to?
1c) Yeah agreed and it's a reason I've downgraded from somewhere near town to barely town imo
2) I'd disagree with this generalisation, but I think you're saying "no specific point of OMG TOWN!", which is probably reasonable.
2a) I clearly disagree on Aus, Mylo I'm not going to poison the well but I'm up in the air there. I'd agree on skitter but waiting on more.

[Sando]

pedit: no, I meant reactive as in "you yourself admitted you've checked out of this game, which I think is NAI. But if you're town, try to check in for at least a few more days to obvtown, so we don't have a repeat of the vulcan lynch"

Ok this first: Why does this need discussion then? It doesn't change content, like it's pretty obvious I had thoughts on Aus around the whole "locktown" and hadn't gotten around to articulating it. What I then articulate isn't changed because I was grudging about it.

are we still talking about the same thing? i'm very confused

Well I thought you were scumreading me for "reactiveness", but you say no.

So now I'm thinking you're writing off the Aus argument as "reactiveness". My point is that Aus's actions aren't more or less townie because I'm being reactive (or not) in bringing them up.

[skitter30]

You mean other than seeking to be conf!towned for it?

Skitter you've mislynched me before because the person I was looking at "could not possibly be scum because of X", and scum turned out to be someone who had also done X...

You more than most should be aware it's how I look at the game, and I find locktowning pretty BS unless it's mechanical in nature.

Other than that, yeah:

question: how much do you value anti-associatives in a general sense?

i think that might be part of what's going on here and in the jungle republic game - i will sometimes view a given interaction as just not ever coming from partners and i'll clear them for it. the reason you got mislynched in the jungle republic game is because you were scumreading me and i thought i was hilariously beyond clear for how ap's lynch went down there and i couldn't understand how that could be a real read that you were pushing

and you're kinda doing the same thing here

like how the ap lynch even came about i just can't imagine her orchestrating that as scum. like i'm trying to imagine scum!her but i just can't make the game make sense on some fundemental level if she's scum; i really, really, really don't think that's how day2 plays out if she's scum with ap, and i don't think she claims she tried to pick pgo/vig as scum there knowing scum!ap was pgo

and you still haven't addressed that

i think it's entirely fair for her to take credit for the ap lynch

like the way she interacted with ap and his lynch gives her massive anti-scum points and i don't think she's done anything to outweigh that on play if that makes sense?

i kinda feel like you probably don't try to push through a mislynch on ausuka as scum using similar reasoning as what you tried on me in jungle republic when i'm in this game given that i mislynched for it there tho

i don't really understand why you have 'not being on ap's wagon' as a more important factor than 'being the impetus for ap's wagon in the first place'

==

Sorry for being absent, I've been doing a school production and that's kinda taken up my usual free time.

UNVOTE: Just for now because from memory there was something I was thinking was townish from Sando.

@ausuka: do you still think mylo is kinda townie?

this is like classic scum!mylo

==

Also what about my progression from "not D1 lynch but not yet towncore" on D1 to "lynch this guy" on D2 do you find suspicious and out of character for someone who's never played a T+T with AP (I don't think I have, only a town to his scum and scum to his town)?

ok can you talk more about your progression from 'not day1 lynch but not yet towncore' to 'lynch this guy'?

ie what prompted that progression?

==

is there another reason why you guys are townreading cardi? @ skitter too

that + the hypo-inno thing

i think that's a fair point wrt everyone having townie thoughts; i kinda agree

i'm kinda getting a better feel for what sando's thinking right now and there are parallels with how he played jungle republic; also this sounds like it's a hill he's willing to die on and idk if scum decides to pick a fight here with ausuka who's been kinda widely townread?

unless it's just mylo i'm getting lost somewhere

==

@ofrhz: i'm going to reread cardi + brass (i'll start tonight but will prob finish tomorrow; mafia's been a little bit hard for me to put effort into over the past couple of days) and will keep in mind your points in 1787

[Sando]

question: how much do you value anti-associatives in a general sense?

i think that might be part of what's going on here and in the jungle republic game - i will sometimes view a given interaction as just not ever coming from partners and i'll clear them for it. the reason you got mislynched in the jungle republic game is because you were scumreading me and i thought i was hilariously beyond clear for how ap's lynch went down there and i couldn't understand how that could be a real read that you were pushing

My point is you were "hilariously beyond clear" for doing something that CJ also did (on what lynch I forget).

I accused you of being scum.
You said "nah that's stupid, I did XYZ, I can't POSSIBLY be scum, YOU must be scum for saying I'm scum"
Turns out scum had ALSO done XYZ.

So yes I was wrong about you being scum, but your reasoning for the clear was pretty self-evidently wrong, and I was right that scum could do XYZ.

The difference here is that you're locktowning someone else, instead of yourself. But the principle is the same, locktowning like that is dangerous.

This was what I wrote in the dead-thread btw:

Skitter is the only town currently capable of making a coherent case and will defend CJ with the same reasoning she's defending herself

[skitter30]

pretty sure ausuka is in this game more than invis is, brass.

Invisibility is in this game?

VOTE: Invisibility

I'd rather have the pressure vote on someone I forgot was in the game than Ausuka who I at least remembered.

I don't like the Enigma wagon, Enigma's ISO has some good questions, and good thoughts. That's a town ISO as far as I can tell.

Vulcan Logician promised more content in 240 and never followed up, I'd like to know why. I know the dude only has 3 posts, but they include him claiming he's a fairly active player. I will allow him more posts before making an actual read, but it makes me uneasy.

Invisibility is scum.

BuJaber, I'm leaning scum on.

I'll find the last scum tomorrow or something, going to the beach now.

this progression is kinda meh; don't like that he defended the vizzy vote as a pressure vote to make someone post content while explicitly saying he can't form a read on someone not posting and then called him scum later on when vizzy hadn't posted much substantial between those two posts

(aside: he has the word 'cheap' in his sig atm which is making ctrl+f'ing for 'ap' incredibly frustrating lol)

only time he mentions/interacts with ap is when: ap voted me in rvs for not posting yet, and he defended ap's oka vote. i don't know if all scum want to end up on that wagon given that vizzy sheeped ap just after? it's anti-associative from a vca perspective imo

still kinda like 47 tho

[ofrhz]

Well I thought you were scumreading me for "reactiveness", but you say no.

So now I'm thinking you're writing off the Aus argument as "reactiveness". My point is that Aus's actions aren't more or less townie because I'm being reactive (or not) in bringing them up.

- I think ausuka had many possible avenues when she claimed, and she didn't have to claim the 1-shot vig/PGO slot
- Ausuka was really eager to lynch in the AP, skitter, vulcan, and someone else who I don't remember lynchpool, which indicates that she was genuinely hunting for the person who actually had the 1-shot vig/PGO slot
- subpoint: her not voting for AP just happened to be a thing with how fast the wagon built up. I didn't see anything to see that she would've been opposed to an AP wagon had that not happened.
- I think there are also other points to consider, like "would Ausuka out AP here, when AP is probably the better scum player?"
- I also trust sky when she said that ausuka was "essential" or whatever to gamesolving

[Sando]

i don't really understand why you have 'not being on ap's wagon' as a more important factor than 'being the impetus for ap's wagon in the first place'

THIS:

^ basically my thoughts. AP could be scum RB but I very much doubt he's scumvig which means we should go for Vulcan or skitter today imo. The quick wagon means he's more likely to be town and people on it are more likely to be scum I think. I'm not a fan of skitter's vote when she was defending AP earlier.

Is NOT "not on the wagon". Just because I quoted the lynch names does NOT mean I think that being on the wagon at the end is the end all be all.

[the worst]

quack~