Newbie 1889: Ice Cream (Game Over)

[RCEnigma]

I disagree that it's a good tell is all.

Fine. I disagree with you.

Defending Angel may have been unintentional but I didn't feel UC dodging out if the game was more indicative than Angel dodging out of the game and I wanted to see what kind of resistance there would be in moving to a slot in a very similar situation.

By that logic everyone voting is, by definition, defending everyone they're not voting, yeah?
I'll agree it's "true" but also posit it's a pretty meaningless tell.
Is that the preference for Angel in a nutshell? Other people defended the slot by not voting the slot?

Also, you missed me asking you who you thought was the scum on the UC wagon.

I use defend loosely, however you're doing that misleading/belittlement thing again. The parameters around wanting to lynch UC were also applicable to UC and Horror. Horror had one catchup with no original content so I guess that's enough to move him out of the pool?¿

UC and Angel are still in the same boat so when only one comes up as a suggestion it's something I take into consideration since, scum isn't going to say well yeah I don't want to vote Angel because that's my partner. They are simply going to give a reason why someone else is just a better lynch, for town of course.

Did I already say Volxen isn't with Thor if he flips scum? Cuz that's a thing.

[RCEnigma]

I think your case loses steam after point 3 and after that doesn't make me go hmm yeah I can see scum doing that. I think Novas case is a little more grounded.

Volxens lack of transparent reads is very different from the last game I played with him but I got the feeling there was a reason for it.

Also I would lynch angel before you if that's what you're asking. Your play has been alright besides a few lines here and there that read very forced. Your early game, entrance aside was pinged out and I've noticed your shift away from that but that's not really alignment indicative, scum doesn't want to be scumread either.

[ceejayvinoya]

I think an angel lynch would do more bad than good right now. If we lynch angel and it flips town, we can't really analyze the wagon because all would be like "Hey lurker lynch. Heck yea".

If it flips scum, anyone could be scum with that slot, so that's tricky as well.

[RCEnigma]

That's my issue with the Volxen wagon. If it flips town everyone on that wagon has scum equity.

[ceejayvinoya]

I think I'll take that risk. I'm happier lynching a guy with scummy content than lynching a guy with no content.

[RCEnigma]

Mmk, quick favor. Wanna give out some reads and maybe tell a bit about why you have those reads?

If you are coming in and lynching Volxen I think we need something tangible to hold you to, regardless of the flip.

[RCEnigma]

I think Sky had a Townie entrance btw for future reference.

[Reundo]

that's just a convinient shield that allows scum to skate by without having to provoke their scum-reads when they should be provoking them.

Bollocks and barely supported in my actions even if you do believe it.

Well if you're not going to explain how it's "bollocks" then frankly this is just an empty accusation.

Uh... I said myself that it wasn't a strong connection -- it's basically just strong enough to where I'm not like "there's no world where these two can't be partners", which made me feel better about voting angel.

You described it as "decent partner synergy" and "priority lynches"
I feel like you're backtracking on stated strength of read.

"Decent" doesn't really imply all that strong connotation imo. Like I said before, it was mostly made as just a side-remark, and me saying "decent partner synergy" can basically be paraprhased to "well, I can see a world in which they're scum together", which is all I basically meant by it. They were priority lynches, but then I realized that angel was probably a bad lynch and volxen's later posts didn't make him look all that towny.

do you feel that newbie scum aren't more likely to replace out than newbie town, especially when it's a repeated occurrence on the same slot?

I consider it a pretty neutral tell unless the player in question is still playing on site elsewhere.
Of the three players who have occupied the slot;

Ismash has 1 post (an /in to Newbie queue)
Standing Wind has one post (an /in to Newbie queue)
Angel has 2 posts (an /in to Newbie queue and her one post in this game)

That is every single post, sitewide, by all those players. I don't see a lot of evidence to suggest that they are avoiding this game in preference of playing town - and am asking why you think this is true (my somewhat subtle implication is you are either scum shopping a non-true claim, or town/scum who just isn't actually looking beyond surface tells to advance scum claims).

Well, I'm just saying that newbies in general tend to want to play town more than scum. I don't know about those newbies specifically, but in general it's been show that newbies replace out more than scum and town, and the more times it happens in a row like this the more likely it is that this is actually the case. One replacement is probably just a neutral tell, but how can you look at a slot that's replaced

three times

in a row and still not even have the slightest suspicion that there's something deeper behind the replace-outs?

It literally wasn't self evident though.

As long as you ignore that I explained it in my response to you - and decided that a half hearted acknowledgement responding to a different part of your case against me was self referential back to your dismissal I was discussing - sure.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Objectively speaking, how is having a Thor opinion not huge?

Objectively speaking - he had one.

Uh... volxen didn't really have an opinion on you at that time. The only time he engaged with you was during RVS and that seemed more like a disagreement than a scum-read persay, but otherwise he seemed much more concerned with how other players read you than actually reading you himself.

How is not having one scummy?

I literally explained right after I said this that I thought not commenting on one of the biggest key moments of the game was him lacking prioritization, and as town there'd be little motivation to not comment on something so important.

The way that you try to give yourself the upper hand for question dodging is absolutely disgusting. Frankly, you're the last player I trust to give an objective view on who's towny or scummy, and that's true regardless of alignment, but it's clear that you care a lot more about winning an argument than actually taking what I say into consideration.

I feel like you're making this really personal - do you think that's affecting your read on me in any way?
I've been very polite with you.

I'm not making this personal at all, I just think you're more scum than town. You being "very polite" doesn't have any effect on my read.

a lurker lynch is the least likely to glean any associations, and it's especially bad if they do end up flipping town

I tend to disagree with this insomuch as a town flip is pretty much always equally negative - feel free to explain how associatives make a town flip less negative.
A scum flip, meanwhile, is always good. I'll agree a scum flip with associatives can be nicer - but I'd be happy with a scum flip regardless.

Obviously I'd prefer a scum flip to a town flip, but if it does end up flipping town then there's two benefits that comes from lynching in the more active pool: 1)We can more accurately gauge the stances made against the players and reassess whether they were actually valid. A lurker lynch is almost always "valid" since lurking is pretty decidedly anti-town, so there's not much to glean from that, and is also tends to lead to a less natural VA since people generally just pile on quickly whenever there's a lurker lynch, and 2)We can gauge the stances made by the lynched player themselves and reassess them knowingly they were fully unbiased, information that can't be gleaned by lynching someone with virtually no stances at all. Clearly, these benefits don't stack up when compared to the draw of lynching scum, but statistically we're more likely to lynch town than scum D1, so we should be prepared to face the consequences of a town flip. There's nothing the lurkers prior to replacement that's really worthy of a lynch anyway -- we don't really know whether or not it's AI, and even with regards to wind I don't think lynching that slot would do us any good right now when we could just lynch it at anytime for the same reasons, something I only realized until later. I think this is kind of a standard concept as well, so I'm no seeing why you have an issue with this as well.

You're basis for voting the original slot -- basically flaking out -- isn't very viable anymore, so do you still think the slot is scum or not?

I don't think the slot is indicative of town.
Do you?
At this stage, a null to scummy slot that is lurking is a pretty viable vote.

The only indication that you think the slot is "null to scummy" is that you thought UCVoyager lack of posting was AI -- which doesn't mean too much post-replacement and you could make the same argument for lynching angel as well -- and if you really still want the slot lynched you're going to actually have to read the newer replacement at some point, and the fact you haven't done so already is telling enough as it stands.

Why do you prioritize sorting me over the player you're actually voting?

Currently I don't - indeed you were the one complaining I wasn't directing enough time at you. I indicated I was seeking to spend less.
Can you quote where you're getting this idea from? Pretty sure you're asking me to defend another made up point.

It's not what you're saying, it's what you're

doing

. When ceejay replaced UCVoyager, he came in right off the bat with a vote on volxen, explaining why he thought he was scum in both his initial post and in a follow-up, but instead of reacting to either of these you spent the majority of your time engaging with me and RCEnigma. The only ceejay post you did comment on was a series of questions that's basically him asking for clarification, which isn't nearly as important to mention as the other two posts -- the way you phrased it doesn't even suggest you particularly found it scummy. I really don't care what you say, because talk is ultimately cheap, but through how little you've actually engaged with ceejay and the lack of you reassessing your read on him it's evident that you aren't putting that much focus towards sorting the new replacement. Also, I wasn't complaining that you weren't "directing enough time at me" -- it was more that I felt you were shifting the narrative in your favor with the posts you were responding to.

[Reundo]

...who will support me in that push and who will oppose me...

...Does sitting at L-3 help me more somehow?

This may be kinda moonlogic but the way he uses "me" here feels very transparent in that he's open about his motivations right off the bat and in a way that I think comes from town. Like, I see scum being too cautious to attach the word "me" to an early wagon.

I realize you probably don't stand by this too much, but I'd think someone as experienced as Thor wouldn't bother as much with being cautious as scum. That seems like something that would only really be AI if he was new as scum, or if he's naturally cautious when playing as scum as opposed to town, which I kind of doubt.

On the other hand, I have early town pings from Reundo and RCE for their willingness to throw early votes at Thor. I feel as though relatively new scum would be too terrified of town Thor to vote for him that early (if he is town). I don't think scum would want to draw the attention of the IC/a player that's been on the site for almost 10 years.

town pings from xwing for knowingly placing Thor at L-1 on page 2. Shows a lack of caution that doesn't come from newb-scum

Sky, what do you think about volxen being one of the first players to engage with Thor during RVS? Do you feel the same applies to volxen that he'd be too cautious to engage with Thor and draw his attention as scum?

Overall, offering your entire wagon minus Reundo as scumreads (who agrees with my "scummy reasoning" regarding not lynching Angel, by the way, but I suppose his reluctance isn't scum-motivated?) is a poor way to dissuade anyone voting you right now.

Basically my reaction to volxen's defense. His NotNova read was out of the grain, but at the same time the essence of Nova's scuminess to him is that he read too much into his catching up post, and this hyper-focus on a tiny portion of his play doesn't feel too natural from town. That being said, I can see where he's coming from on his scum-read of ceejay, even if I don't really agree with it. Then again, it almost seems like all his scum-reads except for angel are at the same level, so I'm a bit puzzled as to why ceejay's his biggest scum-read, i.e. why he's still voting him specifically instead of shifting his vote. He also said he had a town-read on RCEnigma that he was going to expand on, so I'd still like to see that @volxen.

[volxen]

@RCEnigma,

I’m not seeing what is so grounded about NotNova’s case against me. He really brought up two valid points against me:

1) That I didn’t have an early game reads list
2) That I had a period of inactivity

And those two things are equally applicable to all of the other lurker slots: Ceejay[UC], Sky[Horror], and Angel. But it’s as if he is holding me to a different standard than everyone else, because he has chosen to ignore the other lurker slots rather than taking the more equitable approach of presenting cases against all four of us.

If his theory is that it is very likely that one or even both members of the scumteam are among the lurkers, then how is it possibly the most logical approach to tunnel on one out of those four slots and completely ignore the other three? Even if he suspects me the most, should he not have made an effort to engage and question/pressure the other three lurker slots? Admittedly in the case of Angel this would be impossible since that slot has not checked in, but he has had ample opportunities to start seriously engaging/questioning/pressuring the Sky[Horror] and CeeJay[UC] slots. Especially in the case of Ceejay, who has been UC’s replacement for a while now, yet he has made no effort engage, question, or pressure him. In 260, he basically says that the best usage of his limited time to is death tunnel on my slot and ignore all of the other lurker slots because he doesn’t have an unlimited amount of time to devote to this game (as if any of us do).

For example, in 70 he asks me for a readslist. Why has he not asked the same of the Sky[Horror] and Ceejay[UC] slots? This is one of his two major points against me, yet he is unwilling to be equally critical of their slots for not having early game readslists.

His lynch pool also seems to be {Volxen, Volxen, Volxen, and more Volxen}. I haven’t seen him list the name of anyone else that he would seriously consider lynching. And we are on day 1 of a nine-player game that has two scum slots. And I seriously doubt anyone has uncovered the exact scum team, so at this point in time wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect NotNova to have at least 3 serious scumreads anyways? The only two people he has mentioned as scumreads are myself and xwing, and in 223, he said that xwing is “far below Volxen” on his list of scumreads, so I’m not even sure at this point how serious of a scumread xwing is for him.

Meanwhile, while it did come late, I did clearly list four scumreads in 258. To be more specific, this is how I am currently sorting everyone:

Town: {RCEnigma, Reundo, Thor}. Out of these three I feel the most confident about RC being town, but I really suspect that Reundo and Thor are both town as well. If either Reundo or Thor are scum they are doing an incredibly good job of covering up their agenda, because nothing in their interactions (with each other as well as with everyone else) or individual ISO’s stands out to me as being likely to be scum motivated.

Null: {Sky[Horror]}. This slot would be a scumread for me if Horror hadn’t made that catch-up post in 155, which was a fairly decent catch-up post. I still think it’s possible that the Sky[Horror] slot could be scum, but I think scum is much more likely to be residing among {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UC], and Angel}. For now the Sky[Horror] slot is null until I see more content from Sky.

Scum: {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UC], and Angel}. I already talked about these four slots in 258.

Ironically, even though he does have a lot more content than I did in the beginning of the game, I am currently taking a much more holistic and open-minded approach to this game than he is. He is insistent on death tunneling me, whereas I have shared a total of four scumreads, any of whom I would be OK with lynching. To be perfectly clear, that means my lynch pool is {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UC], and Angel}. I wouldn’t be adamantly opposed to a Sky[Horror] lynch, but I believe that any of my four scumreads would be a better lynch.

One of my biggest concerns regarding NotNova is that if he is in fact town, he is setting himself up to look unnecessarily scummy with my mislynch (if I am lynched on day 1) going into day 2. Let me put it this way:

Scenario 1:
A = NotNova death tunnels Volxen
B = NotNova ignores the other lurker slots (Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel)
C = Volxen is mislynched day 1
D = scumteam has a much easier time scumpainting NotNova on day 2

A+B+C=D

If I am mislynched on day 1, NotNova is undoubtedly going to take heat for my mislynch, because it is a wagon that he has started, and he has been very forcefully pushing for me to be lynched today. Xwing has also tunneled on me to some extent lately, but no one else on my wagon has been death tunneling me the way NotNova has been. He has been death tunneling me and ignoring the other lurker slots, period. So if I am mislynched and flip town, it’s not exactly going to be hard for the scumteam to start making the argument that NotNova was pushing a scum agenda with my mislynch (and possibly push for NotNova own mislynch on day 2). They could make similar arguments to what I have been making – that he has been highly inconsistent in his push against me while completely ignoring the other lurker slots. The difference is that at that point I would be confirmed town, so the point about him being inconsistent becomes even more valid. And his whole theory that scum is likely to be among the lurkers won’t be a valid defense for him to fall back on, because of his singular focus on only one out of the four lurker slots (and the one with the most content out of the four to boot).

Scenario 2:

A= NotNova equally focuses on all four lurker slots (Volxen, Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel)
B = Volxen happens to be one out of the four lurker slots that is chosen to be lynched
C= Volxen is mislynched day 1
D= scumteam has a much harder time scumpainting NotNova on day 2

A+B+C=D

If this

were

the case, this would be the much better scenario for NotNova going into day 2, because it’s going to be more difficult for the scumteam to scumpaint paint him (and push for his mislynch on day 2) if he were equally pressuring all four of (Volxen, Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel) and I just happened to be the one that was lynched. He could defend himself by falling back on his theory that scum is likely to be among the lurkers (Volxen, Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel). It then becomes harder for the scumteam to suggest that NotNova was pushing a scum agenda, because they have to attack his entire premise (that scum are more likely to be among the lurkers) in order to do that.

The problem is that scenario 1 is the current reality. His lynch pool should in theory be {Volxen, xwing, Sky[horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel}: all of the lurkers plus xwing, since xwing is apparently still a scumread for him. But the only person he has any interest in lynching is me.

Either he has an incredibly narrow-minded and short-sighted town game for day 1 (death tunnel one suspect and ignore all of the other lurker slots) or he is simply scum. If he is town, I would encourage him to start taking a more holistic and open-minded approach to this game so that his death tunneling of me cannot be used against him by the scumteam. Because believe it or not, the most important thing to me is that town wins this game. Of course, I don’t want to be mislynched, but what would be worse than my mislynch is if my mislynch is followed by NotNova himself getting mislynched on day 2 because he inadvertently makes himself look scummy with how hard he death tunneled on me to the exclusion of all else on day 1.

Seriously @NotNova, you need to start taking a more holistic and open-minded view of the game, and you need to start doing that now. Yes, I get it I am your top suspect, but you are aware that there are two scum slots in this game, and you are also not 100% confident of your scumread of me. At this point in the game you should, at a minimum, have 3 serious scumreads, and you should be willing to vote for any of them.

[RCEnigma]

You were admittedly the only slot of those 4 that was able to be engaged and your response only did more to fuel his fire so I can see where he's coming from even if I think he's wrong.

[RCEnigma]

So let me ask you this Volxen, do you see Scum!Nova tunneling you to a lynch only for it to flip town and implicate himself heavily? As opposed to keeping his lynch options open for perhaps a Townie to lead the charge that he started.

[NotNova]

@RCEnigma,

I’m not seeing what is so grounded about NotNova’s case against me. He really brought up two valid points against me:

1) That I didn’t have an early game reads list
2) That I had a period of inactivity

Completely ignoring everything else that I and others have brought up. At this point I'm just going to give up on repeating myself, no one else seems to have a problem with the way my case was presented - if they do, they can feel free to ask.

And those two things are equally applicable to all of the other lurker slots: Ceejay[UC], Sky[Horror], and Angel. But it’s as if he is holding me to a different standard than everyone else, because he has chosen to ignore the other lurker slots rather than taking the more equitable approach of presenting cases against all four of us.

If his theory is that it is very likely that one or even both members of the scumteam are among the lurkers, then how is it possibly the most logical approach to tunnel on one out of those four slots and completely ignore the other three? Even if he suspects me the most, should he not have made an effort to engage and question/pressure the other three lurker slots? Admittedly in the case of Angel this would be impossible since that slot has not checked in, but he has had ample opportunities to start seriously engaging/questioning/pressuring the Sky[Horror] and CeeJay[UC] slots. Especially in the case of Ceejay, who has been UC’s replacement for a while now, yet he has made no effort engage, question, or pressure him. In 260, he basically says that the best usage of his limited time to is death tunnel on my slot and ignore all of the other lurker slots because he doesn’t have an unlimited amount of time to devote to this game (as if any of us do).

For example, in 70 he asks me for a readslist. Why has he not asked the same of the Sky[Horror] and Ceejay[UC] slots? This is one of his two major points against me, yet he is unwilling to be equally critical of their slots for not having early game readslists.

Because they flaked out and you're still here.
As far as using up limited time goes, I still don't think the way you've been using yours has been particularly wise, which has been brought up several times by Reundo. Simply put, your defense doesn't make you look town.

His lynch pool also seems to be {Volxen, Volxen, Volxen, and more Volxen}. I haven’t seen him list the name of anyone else that he would seriously consider lynching. And we are on day 1 of a nine-player game that has two scum slots. And I seriously doubt anyone has uncovered the exact scum team, so at this point in time wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect NotNova to have at least 3 serious scumreads anyways? The only two people he has mentioned as scumreads are myself and xwing, and in 223, he said that xwing is “far below Volxen” on his list of scumreads, so I’m not even sure at this point how serious of a scumread xwing is for him.

At least this is a somewhat valid concern, even though I disagree I need to have 3 scumreads considering the inactivity of 4/9 slots in the game. Isn't it ironic, though, that you accuse me of death-tunneling even though your stated defense has mostly been an attempt to show how I have to be scum for trying to lynch you?

Here's my current readslist for clarity.
Townread: Reundo, Thor (not a hundred percent sure, but I think their back-and-forth has been TvT, something I'll try to reconsider depending on how N1 goes. Of the two, I feel most strongly about Reundo.)
Townlean: RCE (I've liked most of his contributions, but he's IMO been fencesitting a bit regarding who he would want to lynch and there's definitely to room to go back and reread some of their interactions with Thor/Reundo.)
Polarized: xwing (if you flip scum, cleared town, otherwise a scumlean)
Null-to-town: Skywind (I've mostly liked the contributions of her and her predecessor horrordude. As an aside, my next post will be a response to some of her reads)
Null: ceejay, Angel (ceejay has not posted anything particularly towny IMO, but I feel any reasoning regarding their predecessor's inherent scumminess has been annulled by the flake. As far as Angel goes, there's really nothing to go off of aside from Reundo's newbie-flake principle.)
Scumread: volxen

That gives me a lynching preference of you, ceejay and Angel, in that order. If this wagon somehow doesn't work out, that's probably how I'm going to behave.

Scum: {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UC], and Angel}. I already talked about these four slots in 258.

I'll take a moment that you turned from "yeah, xwing's behaviour is just newbie and therefore null" to "xwing is a scumread" essentially on a dime. Your entire case had two points:
1) xwing is voting me
1a) by just sheeping NotNova (which I could see, but they brought at least a few of their own points, IMO)
2) they're using their only game as a reference point, which is faulty (and therefore scummy (?)

1) is the common denominator in all of your scumreads, which is what makes them feel lazy and unwarranted. 2) can easily be explained away by your earlier "newbies make mistakes" argument.
All of your scumreads have been fairly unimpressive, as they're quite surface-level and seem to hinge more on the fact that they're suspecting you to be scum. I don't see how doing any of that is "taking a holistic approach."

As an aside, I don't see how you can afford to both
a) accuse me of not taking a holistic approach and
b) take issue with me not wanting to lynch Angel because it gives town bad info on either flip on D2.

Yes, a lot of my reads rely on having to guess that you are scum, but then you'd have to accuse your "townread" Reundo of doing the same, just with Thor instead of you, which you have not done.

One of my biggest concerns regarding NotNova is that if he is in fact town, he is setting himself up to look unnecessarily scummy with my mislynch (if I am lynched on day 1) going into day 2. Let me put it this way:

Scenario 1:
A = NotNova death tunnels Volxen
B = NotNova ignores the other lurker slots (Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel)
C = Volxen is mislynched day 1
D = scumteam has a much easier time scumpainting NotNova on day 2

A+B+C=D

If I am mislynched on day 1, NotNova is undoubtedly going to take heat for my mislynch, because it is a wagon that he has started, and he has been very forcefully pushing for me to be lynched today. Xwing has also tunneled on me to some extent lately, but no one else on my wagon has been death tunneling me the way NotNova has been. He has been death tunneling me and ignoring the other lurker slots, period. So if I am mislynched and flip town, it’s not exactly going to be hard for the scumteam to start making the argument that NotNova was pushing a scum agenda with my mislynch (and possibly push for NotNova own mislynch on day 2). They could make similar arguments to what I have been making – that he has been highly inconsistent in his push against me while completely ignoring the other lurker slots. The difference is that at that point I would be confirmed town, so the point about him being inconsistent becomes even more valid. And his whole theory that scum is likely to be among the lurkers won’t be a valid defense for him to fall back on, because of his singular focus on only one out of the four lurker slots (and the one with the most content out of the four to boot).

If anyone else takes issue with my case or thinks I've been "inconsistent" about my reasoning, they can tell me now. The only person I've seen accusing me of that so far is you. I'd be fairly suspicious of anyone coming out of the gates repeating this nonsense of yours on D2 considering they've kept their trap shut today.

In addition, 4/9 players (all of them active) have called me town at some point in the game, 2 of which are on my wagon, so I'd like to see them make the leap between a townread and obvscum for pushing a mislynch, while ignoring everyone else on your wagon.

I'd also like you to drop the "most content" defense, as it's less about how much you post and more about what you're posting.

Scenario 2:

A= NotNova equally focuses on all four lurker slots (Volxen, Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel)
B = Volxen happens to be one out of the four lurker slots that is chosen to be lynched
C= Volxen is mislynched day 1
D= scumteam has a much harder time scumpainting NotNova on day 2

A+B+C=D

If this

were

the case, this would be the much better scenario for NotNova going into day 2, because it’s going to be more difficult for the scumteam to scumpaint paint him (and push for his mislynch on day 2) if he were equally pressuring all four of (Volxen, Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel) and I just happened to be the one that was lynched. He could defend himself by falling back on his theory that scum is likely to be among the lurkers (Volxen, Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel). It then becomes harder for the scumteam to suggest that NotNova was pushing a scum agenda, because they have to attack his entire premise (that scum are more likely to be among the lurkers) in order to do that.

The problem is that scenario 1 is the current reality. His lynch pool should in theory be {Volxen, xwing, Sky[horror], Ceejay[UC], and Angel}: all of the lurkers plus xwing, since xwing is apparently still a scumread for him. But the only person he has any interest in lynching is me.

I'm not averse to defending myself for pushing a lynch on a scumread and I don't think anyone playing town should be afraid of coming under the fire. At this point, I'm more than willing to take that risk.

I still don't understand what "equal pressure" means to you. Any way I can conceptualize it seems like a good way to ensure I don't get any sort of say in the lynch, in the end. The idea that "scum is likely among lurkers" isn't even an idea that originated with me, yet I don't see you calling anybody else out for not applying "equal pressure" and playing favourites with who they want to lynch.

As an aside, it's incredibly hypocritical of you to expect me to keep shooting questions at everyone instead of "death tunneling" when 50% of your content today has been about me.

Either he has an incredibly narrow-minded and short-sighted town game for day 1 (death tunnel one suspect and ignore all of the other lurker slots) or he is simply scum. If he is town, I would encourage him to start taking a more holistic and open-minded approach to this game so that his death tunneling of me cannot be used against him by the scumteam. Because believe it or not, the most important thing to me is that town wins this game. Of course, I don’t want to be mislynched, but what would be worse than my mislynch is if my mislynch is followed by NotNova himself getting mislynched on day 2 because he inadvertently makes himself look scummy with how hard he death tunneled on me to the exclusion of all else on day 1.

Can you even make up your mind? Am I scum trying to push an agenda (and if so, prove it) or am I poor misguided town who's going to get lynched on D2? You want to be saying the former, but you don't have any proof for it and you're supplementing it with the latter, which is just a pathetic attempt to play to my fears, an appeal to emotion to try to get me to drop my case. The point isn't to survive, the point is to find scum and lynch them. I have no anxiety over potentially getting lynched, whereas you seem to be weaseling out by throwing mud at my case - I see that as a scum response.

Seriously @NotNova, you need to start taking a more holistic and open-minded view of the game, and you need to start doing that now. Yes, I get it I am your top suspect, but you are aware that there are two scum slots in this game, and you are also not 100% confident of your scumread of me. At this point in the game you should, at a minimum, have 3 serious scumreads, and you should be willing to vote for any of them.

I appreciate the "concern", but I'm keeping my vote on you and I'll continue to do that unless someone gives me a seriously good reason not to.

[Thor665]

I'm excited to play with Thor especially after reading his interview with ffery!

At least my next answer will make a lot of sense to you;

what's your current read list, thor?

Who are you confused by my read on? I've clearly stated all my reads.
If I hadn't it's safe to presume null.

to be honest, i mostly skim on reundo vs thor walls..but i wanted to just put here what pinged me the post during my first read (i dont think i'll enjoy doing ISO reads for both thor and reundo..)

So, like here for example:

When it comes to "dodges" I don't need examples, I want em all.
I would think you would too...if I was fully convinced you were scumhunting me

context is, reundo is accusing thor of dodging questions..and gives one particular example..

thor's

partial

answer is as per above..

Fixed that for you.
Did you intentionally cut out me answering his 'for example' question?

Volxen feels better to me than CJ and Angel.

Can you briefly describe why? Nova has reasonably valid points on him, and though I think 'over defensive' is amongst the lamest tells in existence to change it to 'limited additional scumhunting' makes it feel pretty valid as an issue with the slot, no?

I use defend loosely, however you're doing that misleading/belittlement thing again. The parameters around wanting to lynch UC were also applicable to UC and Horror. Horror had one catchup with no original content so I guess that's enough to move him out of the pool?¿

If you keep having to admit you're maybe using words slightly out of context as your answer I'll admit to questioning your stance that I'm trying to mislead anyone by asking you to clarify what you meant.
Seriously - how can you say those two things at the same time?

So Angel became a better lynch option because multiple slots were guilty of the same things...eh, feels iffy. But your answer is enough on record I'm satisfied.

I think an angel lynch would do more bad than good right now. If we lynch angel and it flips town, we can't really analyze the wagon because all would be like "Hey lurker lynch. Heck yea".

If it flips scum, anyone could be scum with that slot, so that's tricky as well.

These are pointless concerns.

Also, you didn't address my question where I was concerned you were skimming. (which should be easy to spot because Reundo is convinced I wasn't addressing you and whined about it, so it was mentioned multiple times).
That you missed it makes me feel more confident I'm correct - why aren't you bothering to read the game? Seems like scum behavior as they don't need to analyze spit, yeah?

"Decent" doesn't really imply all that strong connotation imo. Like I said before, it was mostly made as just a side-remark, and me saying "decent partner synergy" can basically be paraprhased to "well, I can see a world in which they're scum together", which is all I basically meant by it. They were priority lynches, but then I realized that angel was probably a bad lynch and volxen's later posts didn't make him look all that towny.

Zip zap reverse of weak position when questioned, got it.

Well, I'm just saying that newbies in general tend to want to play town more than scum. I don't know about those newbies specifically, but in general it's been show that newbies replace out more than scum and town, and the more times it happens in a row like this the more likely it is that this is actually the case. One replacement is probably just a neutral tell, but how can you look at a slot that's replaced

three times

in a row and still not even have the slightest suspicion that there's something deeper behind the replace-outs?

I'm not willing to rule out the idea, nor do I care to follow it more than it deserves - didn't think I'd indicated it was a bad or good idea beyond questioning your reasoning and methodology.
Would you like to address my work in assessing your idea with investigation of the actual players in question, and answer if you did or didn't assess them before making the accusation?

Uh... volxen didn't

really

have an opinion on you at that time. The only time he engaged with you was during RVS and that

seemed

more like a disagreement than a scum-read

persay

, but otherwise he

seemed

much more concerned with how other players read you than actually reading you himself.

Distancing soft language is distancing and soft.
Is the issue that he didn't have a read, or that he didn't have a strong enough one?
Your earlier statement had me believing your issue was lack of a read.

You being "very polite" doesn't have any effect on my read.

Never said it should (please stop doing that to me, you and RCE both, it's tiring) - just found the disgusting comment and some of the language to imply a personal attack. if none was intended or desired then awesome!

I think this is kind of a standard concept as well, so I'm no seeing why you have an issue with this as well.

I'll agree it's a standard concept.
I'll suggest the standard concept is wrong.

and if you really still want the slot lynched you're going to actually have to read the newer replacement at some point, and the fact you haven't done so already is telling enough as it stands.

Yeah, it's almost as though I'm doing that though - it's not my lack of activity making it slow.

[snip]Pretty sure you're asking me to defend another made up point.

It's not what you're saying, it's what you're

doing

.

Uh huh.
Let's look at what I'm doing.
The slot is replaced.
I ask it a question.
You complain I'm not doing more (basically just disagreeing with the angle of my question).
The slot comes back and ducks my question.
Whoop dee doo?
At most your complaint is (again) that I scumhunt differently than you do.
I agree that I do.
I also suggest that is a bollocks case.

Also, I wasn't complaining that you weren't "directing enough time at me" -- it was more that I felt you were shifting the narrative in your favor with the posts you were responding to.

I agree that when I respond to your posts I shift the narrative in favor of my position?

[NotNova]

EBWOP: the above mentions of "Skywind" should be replaced with "Skygazer". The names are pretty similar and all the replacements confused me, sorry.

On the other hand, I have early town pings from Reundo and RCE for their willingness to throw early votes at Thor. I feel as though relatively new scum would be too terrified of town Thor to vote for him that early (if he is town). I don't think scum would want to draw the attention of the IC/a player that's been on the site for almost 10 years.

town pings from xwing for knowingly placing Thor at L-1 on page 2. Shows a lack of caution that doesn't come from newb-scum

I'm not exactly sure if xwing or Reundo have any clue of Thor's apparent reputation, considering Reundo at one point pretty much said he would never trust Thor's reads and xwing expressed surprised at his "celebrity" status, as he said. Not sure for RCE.

ill think it over, im kind of unconcerned over who gets lynched as long as its not one of my strong townreads

i may end up just sheeping whichever wagon has the majority of my townreads

Who are your strongest townreads, then? Could you give some more reasoning on them?

I think it's a fairly important question considering it's the main factor in you deciding on a lynch. I can maybe guess from what you'd posted before that, but I'd like to hear it from you.

[RCEnigma]

Yep, you got it again Thor. Exactly what I meant.

To answer Nova the exact person doesn't matter much for Sky's read. Even as a newbie the implication is that the IC is a given game is more experienced than the rest of the playerlist ergo better at the game. Which makes them more likely to read scum challenging them.

From a newbie mindset of course. I only knew Reundo and Volxen coming into the game and I have no problem challenging the IC is either alignment.

[MarioManiac4]

Replacing RCEnigma.

[MarioManiac4]

Votecount 1.8

volxen (4) - NotNova, ceejayvinoya, xwing, Reundo
ceejayvinoya (2) - Thor665, volxen
angel7399 (1) - RCEnigma

Not Voting (2) - angel7399, Skygazer

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is currently frozen at 1 day, 21 hours, 35 minutes until all replacements have been found.

[NotNova]

Well, that came out of the blue. I have my suspicions on why that happened but I'm going on record as saying the replace-out is NAI.

I hope you'll stick around for the post-game RCE, there's a lot I'd like to say to you. Going to be a memorable first game with almost half the slots replacing on D1.

[MarioManiac4]

Haylen replaces angel7399.

[Haylen]

I want to keep Thor around, I wont be voting there today. Why are we even discussing his reputation in a newbie game, it's irrelevant.

RCEnigma, run down on why you're voting for my slot?

Volxen, why are you so concerned about a mislynch on Day One? You're pushing the 'lynching me will be a mislynch' thing rather heavily.

Ruendo, replace outs aren't a tell this early in the game. Using your argument that lurkers are anti-town, I'd go as far as to say replacing out was neutral behaviour. Scum lurk to avoid the radar, they wouldn't lurk so much that it would get their slot replaced out.

I haven't read the thread properly yet, that is just be notes on a few points made on this page.

Hi everybody, it's been about 3-4 years since I last played, so bare with me and I'm sure we can sort everything out.

[volxen]

I want to keep Thor around, I wont be voting there today. Why are we even discussing his reputation in a newbie game, it's irrelevant.

RCEnigma, run down on why you're voting for my slot?

Volxen, why are you so concerned about a mislynch on Day One? You're pushing the 'lynching me will be a mislynch' thing rather heavily.

Ruendo, replace outs aren't a tell this early in the game. Using your argument that lurkers are anti-town, I'd go as far as to say replacing out was neutral behaviour. Scum lurk to avoid the radar, they wouldn't lurk so much that it would get their slot replaced out.

I haven't read the thread properly yet, that is just be notes on a few points made on this page.

Hi everybody, it's been about 3-4 years since I last played, so bare with me and I'm sure we can sort everything out.

Because the one person I am 100% certain of being town is myself. My win condition requires all scum to be lynched, and I know for a fact that I am not scum, so me being mislynched does not help me meet my win condition. So don't I have an obligation to defend myself to the best of my abilities, as opposed to sitting back and just accepting my mislynch? I'm not really sure what point you are trying to drive home here.

[NotNova]

@Mod, I'll be V/LA until Wednesday, 6 pm CEST.

I'll still try to answer any questions directed at me and keep up with the thread on mobile, but expect fewer walls from me.

[xwing]

what's your current read list, thor?

Who are you confused by my read on? I've clearly stated all my reads.
If I hadn't it's safe to presume null.

it's easier to track if it's in one post..lemme try if i got it right from memory:
town: notnova
town lean: rce
null: all the rest not mentioned by name here
null/scum: reundo
scum: ceejay

Did you intentionally cut out me answering his 'for example' question?

i cut off everything and left the part that pinged me..on rereading the entirety, im wrong again, you did answer..that explains why nobody responded to me..zzzzz..

[xwing]

I think your case loses steam after point 3 and after that doesn't make me go hmm yeah I can see scum doing that. I think Novas case is a little more grounded.

Volxens lack of transparent reads is very different from the last game I played with him but I got the feeling there was a reason for it.

Also I would lynch angel before you if that's what you're asking. Your play has been alright besides a few lines here and there that read very forced. Your early game, entrance aside was pinged out and I've noticed your shift away from that but that's not really alignment indicative, scum doesn't want to be scumread either.

awww..thanks for the honesty though im bummed i thought i had a good case..

im trying to keep an open mind with regards to volxen, but no one's come up with a good argument to change my mind on him yet..

what do you mean by "reads that are forced"? i see this come up but im unsure what this pertains to..