Newbie 1889: Ice Cream (Game Over)

[volxen]

@Ceejay, why didn't you nightkill me on night 2? Were you really convinced that if you did you would have gotten autolynched on day 3?

Considering the plan that I came up with, do you now wish you had nightkilled me on night 2?

[RCEnigma]

It was unfortunate for Ceejay really, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sorry for replacing out but thumbs up Cheeky for really showing you were Townie.

Volxen was super strong post claim. I called it by the way, I could see how that first game influenced your play and halfway through Nova's case on you I was just like damn he rolled a pr AGAIN lol.

[volxen]

It was unfortunate for Ceejay really, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sorry for replacing out but thumbs up Cheeky for really showing you were Townie.

Volxen was super strong post claim. I called it by the way, I could see how that first game influenced your play and halfway through Nova's case on you I was just like damn he rolled a pr AGAIN lol.

LOL, so you already knew I was a PR? Nice. It's actually pretty funny because I've now completed three newbie games, and I've been a town PR in ALL of them!

Newbie 1885 -- I was town doctor
Newbie 1888 - I was town cop
Newbie 1889 -- I was town jailkeeper

And I won't complain if I get to be a town PR in my next game either.

Being town jailkeeper in this game was just pure AWESOME though. Correctly jailing Sky and stopping my own nightkill from going through is my best experience on this site to date.

[Thor665]

Ceejay was basically doomed to lose the moment he claimed and his partner was caught.

Probably would have benefited them to have Ceejay perform the kill on Nova not Sky - that way at least if he was jailed he could have tried to argue the lack of the kill was due to him being the target. I think trying to kill Nova prior to Volx was a reasonable idea - they just lost track of which scum was never going to make it past lylo.

Pretty solid game all around, I think a lot of town played *really* strongly. Look forward to seeing you all catch more games.

If you'd like me to offer more specific feedback on your play this game feel free to ask and I'll do so.
I can also offer any insights you'd like on my play, or any lingering playstyle/game theory questions you may have - my IC duties don't end with the game

[volxen]

Ceejay was basically doomed to lose the moment he claimed and his partner was caught.

Probably would have benefited them to have Ceejay perform the kill on Nova not Sky - that way at least if he was jailed he could have tried to argue the lack of the kill was due to him being the target. I think trying to kill Nova prior to Volx was a reasonable idea - they just lost track of which scum was never going to make it past lylo.

Pretty solid game all around, I think a lot of town played *really* strongly. Look forward to seeing you all catch more games.

If you'd like me to offer more specific feedback on your play this game feel free to ask and I'll do so.
I can also offer any insights you'd like on my play, or any lingering playstyle/game theory questions you may have - my IC duties don't end with the game

Sky and Ceejay could clarify this for us, but I think the reason Sky tried to nightkill me on night 1 (rather than Ceejay) is because I listed Ceejay as one of my top scumreads on day 1, whereas I had Sky as a nullread. They probably anticipated that I would jail one of my scumreads (NotNova, xwing, or Ceejay), and didn't take into account that I would hardcore case Sky during the night.

[Skygazer]

That's correct, I thought CJ was much more likely to be jailkept than myself. Whoops :p

[Skygazer]

This was a scary game to play scum in and I honestly thought I was replacing into a town slot >.>

[CheekyTeeky]

@CheekyTeeky, sorry I guess I made you put in effort into casing Reundo and Thor for no reason.

it's ok. I knew you guys really wanted to win so I had to somehow put you at ease so we could just get it done lol.

[CheekyTeeky]

This was a scary game to play scum in and I honestly thought I was replacing into a town slot >.>

Yeah this town was amazing for a newbie game. I'm really impressed with the newbies.

[volxen]

This was a scary game to play scum in and I honestly thought I was replacing into a town slot >.>

Lol it's funny because I've had the following happen in the three newbie games that I have played:

First game -- BOTH SE slots were scum (and one of the slots replaced out)

Second game -- one SE slot was scum (and this slot replaced out)

This game -- BOTH SE slots were scum (and both of the slots replaced out)

I think going forward I will be keeping a very close eye on SE slots that replace out.

[xwing]

if we extend volxen's scenario A and then think we're on column C instead of A, i will daresay both ceej/sky scum team..ceej avoiding to do the kill from fear of being jailed by volxen coz of suspicion..then volxen correctly jailing scum!sky preventing the kill..

first time to call scum team correctly yeeeey!! anyway sorry town i played really poorly especially at the start..what was i thinking..ugh..i dont think i could ever recover zzzzzz..

good job everyone twas a fun game! think i learned a lot here!
thanks mario for modding!!

@volxen: CT's gonna kill you for forcing her to do extra work hahaha! but i think correctly jailing sky when she targeted you was the best play of the game definitely!!!! (though i still dislike VCA logic and stubbornness to lynch ceej but i blame myself lol)..

@thor: sorry for my early attitude towards you..dunno but i really felt really annoyed/exasperated at your slot early on.. :-s
i had a lot of questions during the game, i should have listed it down! i'll just jot down some that i remember..if you would be so kind..

1. why were you so adamant of not lynching claimed doc until lylo for this specific game, given the very suspicious nature of it?
2. near the end of D1, we were having trouble deciding who to lynch but universally didn't want to no-lynch..as town who is holding the swing vote, what's the play to make?
3. how do you ask the "right" questions as town? conversely, what do you use as a guide to call someone town or not? i notice you dont give these out hastily/easily..

[xwing]

It was unfortunate for Ceejay really, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sorry for replacing out but thumbs up Cheeky for really showing you were Townie.

Volxen was super strong post claim. I called it by the way, I could see how that first game influenced your play and halfway through Nova's case on you I was just like damn he rolled a pr AGAIN lol.

you called it out indeed..how did you figure it out??

[xwing]

I'm glad it played out this way, I would have felt bad mislynching poor xwing. Why did you have to do so many suspicious things, xwing! lol

i know right?!?!?! im baffled myself lol..how could a townie play so scummy lol..really in this newbie game i felt like i was the only real newbie here you guys were just awesome!!

i thought the way i played at the end even when i knew i was gonna lynched was pretty pro-town but i was still resigned to my death though coz i felt sure you werent gonna change your mind lol

[volxen]

if we extend volxen's scenario A and then think we're on column C instead of A, i will daresay both ceej/sky scum team..ceej avoiding to do the kill from fear of being jailed by volxen coz of suspicion..then volxen correctly jailing scum!sky preventing the kill..

first time to call scum team correctly yeeeey!! anyway sorry town i played really poorly especially at the start..what was i thinking..ugh..i dont think i could ever recover zzzzzz..

good job everyone twas a fun game! think i learned a lot here!
thanks mario for modding!!

@volxen: CT's gonna kill you for forcing her to do extra work hahaha! but i think correctly jailing sky when she targeted you was the best play of the game definitely!!!! (though i still dislike VCA logic and stubbornness to lynch ceej but i blame myself lol)..

@thor: sorry for my early attitude towards you..dunno but i really felt really annoyed/exasperated at your slot early on.. :-s
i had a lot of questions during the game, i should have listed it down! i'll just jot down some that i remember..if you would be so kind..

1. why were you so adamant of not lynching claimed doc until lylo for this specific game, given the very suspicious nature of it?
2. near the end of D1, we were having trouble deciding who to lynch but universally didn't want to no-lynch..as town who is holding the swing vote, what's the play to make?
3. how do you ask the "right" questions as town? conversely, what do you use as a guide to call someone town or not? i notice you dont give these out hastily/easily..

I kind of was starting to feel a little bit of doubt about you being scum, but I didn't want to say anything too early as I didn't want you to get too comfortable and think that you were out of the woods. In other words, I wanted you to keep posting under the assumption that you were still definitely going to be lynched today, so I could continue to evaluate your posting knowing that you were writing your posts under that assumption. I wasn't sure if your whole "I'm OK with you guys lynching me if it will help us win the game" was genuine, or if it was reverse psychology to perhaps guilt trip us not into lynching you. Especially since Ceejay did the same thing when he said "You guys should probably just lynch me", which of course we now know in his case was reverse psychology to try and get town points for himself.

If you would have really made yourself look towny (and I mean REALLY) before the deadline of day 3, then I may have considered switching the plan from "lynch xwing" to "no lynch", and have everyone just vote "no lynch", and then I would have jailed Ceejay, and we would have seen what happened during the night. After no nightkill happened on night 3, I was going to have everyone vote "no lynch" again on day 4 to see would happen on night 4. Then on day 5, after two consecutive nights of no nightkills, I probably would have just agreed to lynch Ceejay at that point. Maybe I would have asked everyone to vote "no lynch" a third time, just to annoy the mafia RB if there was in fact a mafia RB purposefully no-killing to try and frame Ceejay. Technically the mafia RB could indefinitely purposefully no-kill during the night phase to keep trying to frame Ceejay, but at some point the game would just come to a complete standstill (town refuses to lynch and scum refuses to nightkill), and I would assume that the mafia RB would realize that's ultimately not a winning strategy, and eventually give in and nightkill someone even though doing so would have completely cleared Ceejay. So all in all, this strategy 100% guaranteed that scum would not be able to suddenly wipe out all confirmed town in a single night phase.

But yes, you are correct. Despite how much scum equity Ceejay had, it would have been an extremely bad play to just go ahead and lynch him on day 3. It was imperative that we had at least one night phase where he was in jail, to ensure that we would have confirmed town among us (either Ceejay or myself) on day 4.

[Thor665]

That's correct, I thought CJ was much more likely to be jailkept than myself. Whoops :p

Yeah, but I would suggest it doesn't matter as you could at least argue that scum had shot at Ceejay (we still might have lynched him if he'd been jailed regardless, but by the time you're claiming a PR you're pretty much a dead scum slot anyways).
Conversely, you were moderately under the radar and at the very least were 100% more likely to be allowed to live through lylo than Ceejay's slot would have been, making you the more valuable scum to protect long term.

Make sense?

@thor: sorry for my early attitude towards you..dunno but i really felt really annoyed/exasperated at your slot early on.. :-s
i had a lot of questions during the game, i should have listed it down! i'll just jot down some that i remember..if you would be so kind..

1. why were you so adamant of not lynching claimed doc until lylo for this specific game, given the very suspicious nature of it?
2. near the end of D1, we were having trouble deciding who to lynch but universally didn't want to no-lynch..as town who is holding the swing vote, what's the play to make?
3. how do you ask the "right" questions as town? conversely, what do you use as a guide to call someone town or not? i notice you dont give these out hastily/easily..

No worries, I get that reaction from people semi-regularly when not in live or voice play situations. I think there's something about my way of phrasing things that comes across charming when you hear me but a bit dickish just in text format. I keep tossing in smilies, but it's still a struggle I am aware is on my end sometimes

1. Because even though I understood (and had scumread the slot since fairly early) how scummy the slot was, there was still a potential chance the slot was town, and I prefer to play the odds - so therefore taking a stab at the VT pool by figuring out who there was the most scummy remaining and lynching that slot today was no different than doing so after lynching Ceejay - unless Ceejay was indeed town, in which case it was massively more pro-town to do it first.

2. Well...I'd say the core answer is "sort that gak out WAY before deadline (like a certain sexy IC might have suggested). That said, as I've mentioned, most people on this site for some gawdawful reason disagree with that and consider my strategy not optimal (they remain wrong) and you will often end up in a lynch or derp situation. If you, as town, are in this situation I would tend to suggest the following;

a) Come up with your own personal list of "won't lynch" (at the very least it will contain you). Announce this info as the game approaches derp fail territory.
b) Look at the other available wagons and how large they are - if you're on the largest, hold still and try to convince people to join you.
c) If you're tied for largest and are okay with the idea of lynching the other equally large target - move immediately and make that the largest wagon.
d) If all else fails, be comfortable with the idea of lynching anything you don't town read - a flip can be good info and it's FAR better to lynch a null read Day 1 than to not lynch anyone in most setups.
e) I personally suggest never voting a town read, even if it means a no lynch - not everyone agrees with me (and there are some valid reasons to argue the opposite stance, I just find them lackluster) but I do think that town who votes someone they think is town is inherently playing poorly no matter what, and it screws with VCA and is the sort of derp thing scum would want to do, therefore town should never do it. Draw your own conclusions as you get more experience.

3. The "right" question is anything that will help you sort someone. It can be a lot of work to even begin to get a good feel for what is right and what is not. I, personally, don't think there is such a thing as a right or wrong question, only a right or wrong answer - so I'll ask anything (I tend to favor questions towards motivation and intent though - as I personally think that's where the most accurate scumtells lie) Sometimes it works great (I got to see RCE and Haylen as fairly townish easily) sometimes it's less brilliant (I was not happy with my sorting on the Reundo slot) but i do seem to generally be more accurate than random guessing would be, so that's a win for me. I suggest it is basically never a bad idea to ask someone why they did something - then try to look for holes in the logic they use and ask them about that. Then just gauge if the narrative feels legit - a lot of scum players have trouble sorting their personal narratives.

I am actually often accussed of giving out town reads too easily so maybe it was just this game. In any case - what makes me call someone town (something I do find generally easier and more accurate than calling someone scum) is to look for legit game solving/helping behavior. Stuff like when CT was being insistent on getting the JKer to establish a target on a roleblocker flip. That's a legit pro town move (now, scum might have been faking it knowing that the flip was going to be town, but if a given slot racks up enough pro-town plays it starts to make me feel really happy with them).

To (as usual) abuse Reundo more note my interactions with him versus a slot I townread, like CT or NotNova. I was citing Reundo as tunneling (he legit just wasn't paying attention to anyone or anything besides me for a questionable length of time, and literally everything I did was a scumtell, and every bit of new info from anyone's flip just fed into the case on me - no evidence ever changed the core position) I noted and poked at that because I saw it as potential scum play, and not particularly pro town. Compare that with CT, who tended to bang against everyone, and was willing to flip all of her reads on their head the very instant she got new info. She would make a strong statement, then find a new thing and reverse half her reads - now, as always, yes, scum can fake this stuff (heaven knows I like to believe I can as scum) but it does tend to be the sort of evidence that, as more of it mounts, you can get your town vibes narrowed in.

One of the best things town did this game, was not actually being that accurate in pegging scum (I got Ceejay, but support there was slow and haphazard) Volx pegged Star, but if he hadn't jailed him how functional could he have argued it. Ect. ect. ect. But, across the board, though some town (like take me and Reundo on each other) had boggles with town, on the whole town did a great job in identifying other town players and, more or less, cooperating with them (as an example, look at you and RCE and Reundo Day 1, or CT and myself Day 2, or basically everyone with Nova - who may have had the best personal reads of the entire game). That was really what was murdering scum - they didn't get into a town looking position and were being singled out.

[Thor665]

I kind of was starting to feel a little bit of doubt about you being scum, but I didn't want to say anything too early as I didn't want you to get too comfortable and think that you were out of the woods.

I also, CT was making a areally excellent town xwing case.

I probably would have argued to kill Reundo and then Ceejay though

[CheekyTeeky]

Thor I think newer players tend to be more suspicious of ICs being scum. His tunnel on you could be construed as scummy but if you'd stepped back from his tunnel his thought processes were very townie particularly in the beginning of his ISO. No way scum can verbalise and be flexible in an argument like he was in your guys thunderdome.

[volxen]

Thor I think newer players tend to be more suspicious of ICs being scum. His tunnel on you could be construed as scummy but if you'd stepped back from his tunnel his thought processes were very townie particularly in the beginning of his ISO. No way scum can verbalise and be flexible in an argument like he was in your guys thunderdome.

LOL yep, in my first game that's all I did was hardcore tunnel on our IC, who actually turned out to be town. But in my defense I wasn't the only one who did, as RCEnigma was in that game and we both hardcore tunneled the IC together.

[volxen]

It's weird because I've yet to be in a newbie where the IC slot has been scum, but in all three of my newbie games at least one of the SE slots has been scum.

[xwing]

@anyone who knows:theoretically, let's say ceej kills you, and you jail me..does the jail ability still work? or does the kill take precedence?

@volxen: what would consider to be a REALLY townie play for this instance?
and ah, i get your point re not lynching ceej immediately..good thinking..coz on my end i was just soooooo ready to vote him out even if he claimed doctor so i would know what setup we are in exactly lol!!

pedit:@thor: thanks for answering the questions! and thanks for being cool about our temper..for the record you werent throwing out smilies , you were throwing out wink faces which really didnt help make you more likeable!!

im surprised you mentioned that townies were able to identify each other..i mean i actually thought we were so fractured scum could easily skate by..but if you put it in a way like having our own "town groups", you're right that sky and ceej both didn't belong to anyone's strong town reads..hmmm..that's a very good point..

peditpedit: @CT: you were so townie, i got paranoid at you for being too townie hahaha!! thanks for obliging to re-analyze for us.. how were you so sure that ceej was really scum on your last few posts? how do you manage to be so freaking townie?!?!
also, having played with reundo, i know he tunneled into thor not coz he's IC, but because he really believed thor was scummy..to be honest i really thought that reundo would get exasperated and just drop it (like me and RCE) but he forged on lol..

pediteditedit: boy i think i type so slow..there's been 3 posts and im still not done typing lol!! hmmm in my first game the IC was scum fwiw

[CheekyTeeky]

LOL yep, in my first game that's all I did was hardcore tunnel on our IC, who actually turned out to be town. But in my defense I wasn't the only one who did, as RCEnigma was in that game and we both hardcore tunneled the IC together.

Ngl...I did too

[RCEnigma]

It was unfortunate for Ceejay really, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sorry for replacing out but thumbs up Cheeky for really showing you were Townie.

Volxen was super strong post claim. I called it by the way, I could see how that first game influenced your play and halfway through Nova's case on you I was just like damn he rolled a pr AGAIN lol.

you called it out indeed..how did you figure it out??

I was reading Volxen Townie for a lot of the same reasons I read him town in the first game I played with him (he was doctor) but in that game he was nightkilled for obvtowning without softing his save (Me BTW)

So I took into account that his play hadn't changed from game to game except for allowing himself to be partially scumread it just lined up too well for it to be coincidence in my head.

[volxen]

@xwing, I will say this, if your goal was to stand out more in this game compared to your last game, I think you definitely achieved that goal. Just not in the way you probably intended to!

[CheekyTeeky]

how were you so sure that ceej was really scum on your last few posts? how do you manage to be so freaking townie?!?!

It was multiple things that added up to Ceej being scum. I wanted to lynch him EOD1 and thought his doc claim was fake - I asked noone to counter because either the real doc would remain hidden and save the JK or scum were forced to keep the JK alive to preserve their claim. It was a bad claim because if there is an RB it is optimal play to RB the JK and kill the doc N1, followed by killing the JK N2. I was even more confident when you guys were all obv town. When I had to reread Thor vs Reundo it became like 100% certain after all the different avenues were explored and after seeing the other scums interactions. Honestly I'm not much of a mechanical player so I find it easier to tone/intent read peoples posts.

I was amazed you guys found me townie tbh. I can be obvious to people who know me but generally my aggressive flip/floppy style usually rubs people the wrong way and I more often than not get scumread because scum will jump on me as I'm an ideal mislynch. Not too towny and not too lynchbaity lol. I just play natural and want to win - I don't worry about how I come across as town as it's my objective to lynch scum, not to get townread (though the best players can do both well).

I think xwing calling for evidence to make their mind up (nova did this too) kind of doesn't vibe with my style - I like people to have their own ideas otherwise it looks like you're going along with the consensus - but as you can see when town does listen and work together it does work. I'm sure Thor has much better advice for you guys individually and you should take him up on the offer for a review.

[RCEnigma]

Fwiw Xwing I thought you were pretty Townie when I went back and read through the game again. Your pushes were unfortunate choices but only because Thor can easily defend himself as either alignment I would think, and Volxen ended up being JK with a town slot defending him.

When I went back and read your posts it really seemed like a steady conscious flow and your hand was open. One of the good things about town is that you can post this way uninhibited because you only have to catch scummy behavior, not force scummy behavior of that makes sense.

The only problem is, and I have to work on this myself, when you run into a scum roll and you have to figure out how to replicate that and still get town where you want it.