[Game Over] Newbie 1900 - Robocalypse

[Auro]

Auro (L-2)

: volxen, Flavor Leaf, Lamees

Flavor Leaf (L-3)

: Ariane, Auro

Ariane (L-4)

: YurikoJasmine

YurikoJasmine (L-4)

: Not_Mafia

snowbeast, lionheart1492

Lamees, hypothetical. How would town!Auro go about to form a read on scum!Lamees?

[Auro]

Questions in both 206 and 210. Go.

[snowbeast]

It's 10pm here in South Africa. I need to be up at 4am so good night all

Wrt the setup. I had it wrong. I'll cast a vote tomorrow morning

[Lamees]

Are you referring to post 210? I wanted to address 209 too so that's why I posted to him first. Unless you are forcing me into tunnelling you?

Umm, asking you questions and wanting you to engage is now scum forcing you to tunnel them?

Read the post order on the previous page and see what you said. You were acting as if I was ignoring your question in 210 just because I wanted to respond to 209(snowbeast)

[Not_Mafia]

Yuriko is the lynch, Auro lynch is bad

[Auro]

Read the post order on the previous page and see what you said. You were acting as if I was ignoring your question in 210 just because I wanted to respond to 209(snowbeast)

Apologies if I felt you were ignoring questions from me 206/210 prematurely. Go ahead and respond to them now.

[Lamees]

I did. And I dont see a reason to answer the hypothetical.

Btw, scum team, PLEASE PLEASE NIGHT KILL NOT_MAFIA. PLEASE. Well if he is in fact on the scum team himself I guess we lost already lol.

[Auro]

I'm all about votes for pressure because pressure makes you engage. Which is what I'm doing. Which part of my exchange seemed like flails to you and not a valid counterargument?

I'm sorry, I'm too dense and didn't find an answer to this in your posts.

Your response to the whole "scummy posts from Lamees are NAI" is that I'm saying that to avoud committing to a vote so I can set up a ML on you in future days, is it?

Town!Lamees shouldn't have a problem with the hypothetical -- I'm asking about how I approach engaging your slot and reading you without being called scummy for merely doing that. If you're town, it's in your best interest to answer that and let me engage and sort you on your terms.

Btw, scum team, PLEASE PLEASE NIGHT KILL NOT_MAFIA. PLEASE. Well if he is in fact on the scum team himself I guess we lost already lol.

Wow.

[Auro]

If I were scum, I don't think I'd have to work so hard at engaging people and plotting future mislynches, lol.

[Lamees]

If I were scum, I don't think I'd have to work so hard at engaging people and plotting future mislynches, lol.

I think your playstyle is just generally active regardless of alignment. So who can say for sure.

To answer 206, basically majority of your posts after FL's vote on you.

[Auro]

To answer 206, basically majority of your posts after FL's vote on you.

This must mean you disagree with my reasoning behind a majority of those posts, yeah? Could you pick out a couple of instances, just so I can see where you're coming from?

Exactly, my playstyle is active regardless of alignment. Therefore my engagement with FL, and my engagement with you is a result of me being active, which is NAI, and not flails in themselves. Agree?

[volxen]

No, I'm going to expect him to be checked by an investigative and cleared/guiltied in future days.

What's your approach towards someone who lurked all game till now? Would you lynch them, or would you hunt for someone who's posting and looks scummy?

I agree with you in so far as I don’t think Not_Mafia has posted enough content to have a strong read on him either way, although the fact that that is the case really bothers me because it seems deliberate. From what you and FL have said this seems to just be his play style regardless of alignment, but he really needs to start producing serious, readable content so that he does not indefinitely stay in nullread territory.

That being said, we cannot necessarily rely on an investigative role to deal with Not_Mafia during night one. There are several setups that don’t have a cop or neapolitan (tracker is an investigate role as well, but it’s a lot harder to catch scum with tracker compared to cop or neapolitan, especially if both scum are still alive):

	A	B	C
M	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
1	Town Cop Town Neapolitan	Town Cop Town Tracker	Town Cop Vanilla Townie
2	Town Jailkeeper Town Doctor	Town Jailkeeper Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper Vanilla Townie
3	Town Doctor Town Cop	Town Doctor Town Neapolitan	Town Doctor Town Tracker

Beyond that, even if there is a cop and they do investigate him on night one, they might not want to out themselves over one clear on day 2 if he turns out to be town.

Unless you are suggesting hypoclaiming? I’ve never done it before, but my understanding is that with hypoclaiming, everyone on day 2 would say something to the effect of “I investigated Not_Mafia and got an innocent”. That way, if Not_Mafia is town, the real cop is not outed, because everyone (including the cop) is making the same claim: that they got an innocent result on Not_Mafia. So this allows the cop to share the innocent result without outing himself/herself. But if the cop actually does get a guilty on Not_Mafia, then of course he/she would end up outing himself/herself because their claim would be that they got a guilty on Not_Mafia, while everyone else would be claiming to have gotten an innocent result. Although the downside to this is that there are setups with no investigative roles (e.g., jailkeeper and doctor), so the results of hypoclaiming could be misleading.

But in any case, I agree with you that Not_Mafia is all around null, but we cannot necessarily rely upon a investigative TPR to deal with his slot for us. So while I don’t agree with Lamees’s scumread of Not_Mafia (simply because he hasn’t posted enough content), I find the reasoning that we should just leave his slot to be dealt with by an investigative TPR to be highly flawed.

Getting an accurate read on his slot, based on his content (or lack thereof if he doesn’t pick things up), is something that you need to be prepared to do.

Mod edit:

fixed bbcode error

[Auro]

I'm not suggesting hypoclaiming. I'm saying that opting to lynch NM should be a last-option lynch, and if investigatives can, they should clear/guilty him. Last game I played with him he made it to LyLo as town, and it just makes the game hard by that point.

They may not out themselves D2, but crumb a result somehow, for example.

If we can get a justified read on him, that's cool. I'd be fine if PoE left him as an option, too.

[Auro]

Although I'll agree with Flavor in that he seems to be contributing a lot more than usual, so it should be easier to sort him without having to resort to compromise lynching or waiting for an investigative.

[Auro]

Not_Mafia, please do post more and comprehensively. For the sake of the newbs. And so that LyLo isn't so goddamn difficult if you make it there.

[Lamees]

To answer 206, basically majority of your posts after FL's vote on you.

This must mean you disagree with my reasoning behind a majority of those posts, yeah? Could you pick out a couple of instances, just so I can see where you're coming from?

Exactly, my playstyle is active regardless of alignment. Therefore my engagement with FL, and my engagement with you is a result of me being active, which is NAI, and not flails in themselves. Agree?

I am mostly referring to content of the posts which I found scummy, not just the number of posts.

[Auro]

Sure -- pick out a couple of instances of said content, and tell me specifically where you find my reasoning wrong.

[Auro]

Volxen, what do you make of the whole FL-Me-Lamees interactions? Are you scumreading me?

[lionheart1492]

Yuriko is the lynch, Auro lynch is bad

MY MIND'S TELLING ME NO
BUT MY BODY... MY BODY'S TELLING ME YES

[Not_Mafia]

^ townposting

[volxen]

Volxen, what do you make of the whole FL-Me-Lamees interactions? Are you scumreading me?

None of you, Lamees, or FL are townreads for me. I’m still highly skeptical of all three of you.

In FL’s case, I’m not sure his motives in voting for Not_Mafia are as honest as he claims them to be. He’s claiming here that his vote for Not_Mafia was a reaction test: the idea being that if enough people sheeped him, he would likely find scum among those who joined him on the Not_Mafia wagon. If he’s town then such a reaction test makes sense, as Not_Mafia is arguably low hanging fruit in this game (a low content poster who is unlikely to really defend himself), and a flashwagon against Not_Mafia would have been highly suspect.

On the other hand, if FL is scum and Not_Mafia is town then getting said flashwagon against Not_Mafia would be precisely his goal, and if it led to Not_Mafia actually being lynched, then on day 2 after Not_Mafia flips town, FL can start to go after the people who sheeped him onto Not_Mafia’s wagon, and potentially line up the next mislynch from that group.

Reactions tests are a thing, but if FL is scum it gives him an easy out because when questioned about his vote for Not_Mafia he can just say, “Oh, I was just waiting to see if anyone would sheep me on the wagon so I can catch scum”, when the real reason for the vote was to push for an easy lynch against Not_Mafia, which he then quickly abandoned after realizing it wasn’t going to happen.

In general, if someone does something that’s sketchy and then claims after the fact that it was just a reaction test, I’m going to be very skeptical of that unless it’s coming from someone that I already strongly townread.

The only player in this game that I feel is truly towny at this point is Lion. And even that is more of a townlean than a full-blown strong townread. As I mentioned before, I didn’t like his early game vote and attack against Yuirko for her “Why Lamees?” question, and his subsequent vote and attack against me for supposedly engaging in “fearmongering”. However, in the process of our back-and-forth conversation, he reassessed his read of me in light of new information. He is still skeptical of my slot, but he conceded that everything I said could be coming from the perspective of town!me, which gives at least some indication that he wants to sort my slot as opposed to just wanting to push a lynch through. He could be faking it, but it came across like a genuine reassessment of his read on my slot based on new information, which is towny.

So basically Lion is somewhat towny, and I am highly skeptical of everyone else.

I’m not sure yet where I want to place my vote at the moment. I feel like I need to reread the last several pages, or perhaps the whole game, and see which one of you (everyone besides Lion) has the most scum equity currently.

[Auro]

Okay, what makes you highly skeptical of me -- before rereading the previous pages?

[volxen]

Lamees, your engagement thus far has mostly just been to answer my questions.

That's why I said you seem to be comfortably settling in to a Not_Mafia tunnel. Gives vibes of scum pushing an easy ML.

Can you show me any genuine instances of engagement apart from answering my questions, and asking FL why he's sheeping me?

Also, I'm going to sheep Ariane.
VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This post is just... bizarre. On the one hand, you talk about how you are getting scum vibes from Lamees (for voting/tunneling Not_Mafia), but then you turn around and Sheep Ariane and vote for Flavor Leaf instead.

nb I find the whole 'I'll see what happens with person x vs person y' thing a bit weird, rather than just wading in, particularly if there's the worry of tvt

that is, like it's passive I guess

also nb, if FL is mafia I might wanna look at Yuri, that sudden vote was weird timing wise, tho I'll feel better if she gives justification

auro, why the sheep?

@Ariane:

I was noting to myself that it's interesting that people seem to be more interested in other players pitting against each other (or) reads on exchanges, than wanting to engage by themselves.

I'm sheeping you because I'm townreading you, and agree with your reasons on FL's vote.

And then only after Ariane questions you on the sheeping do you give more information about the vote. Still, even with Ariane being one of your townreads, if you were getting scum vibes from Lamees, why not just vote for her and put some pressure on her to see how she reacts? Would you have still voted for Flavor Leaf if Ariane had not done so? It just looks incredibly odd how you talk about someone that you are getting scum vibes from, but then decide to sheep one of your townreads instead of voting for the person that you just called out on being scummy. It's concerning because at the time you placed the vote you gave no indication that you were actually scumreading Flavor Leaf on your own.

[Auro]

I've already explained why I haven't voted Lamees - She often makes scummy posts and gives off those vibes, but it's not AI enough to actually lynch her.
I'd rather have a lot more content from her to dig in to her motivations and establish whether it's more likely to come from scum!Lamees than scummyTown!Lamees.
I was engaging with her and pointing out how her behaviour is anti-town/scummy, to see whether she changes her mind -- and if so, how.

I wasn't quite reading Flavor either way, but:
1. The case Ariane made on him made sense
2. I was TRing Ariane

Are these not sufficient to place my vote?

[Auro]

I don't think Lamees' reactions under *pressure* are useful -- go check out D2 of Newbie 1893, the posts leading up to her lynch.
IMO it's a better strategy to let her post more, prod her and get her to change track, and then search for motivation/agenda overall.
I *think* town!Lamees generally votes out of OMGUS-y reasons more and scum!Lamees decides on an agenda and pushes based on that (from a very loose skim of meta).