Excalibur [Endgame]

[Auro]

Obviously yes, if we scumread Merlin, then they claim the sword - then can safely claim the following day. But the problem with that, is that the real Arthur can’t claim until Merlin dies in that case right? Because once you posses the sword you can never unclaim it. The only way the real Arthur could ever get the sword in that case, would be Merlin dying.

And if Merlin claims before they get the sword, then they’ll get NK’d. And if they say who Arthur is, then Arthur dies. So Merlin having the sword is really not much help.

I mean in the worst case, we get an IC for the rest of the game. Merlin killing themselves just to let the sword out in public makes this go to the previous state, so not so useful IMO

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would they want to? If they aren’t Arthur they die, and their influence dies with them.
This looks like a scum thought.

They die only if they vig.
Which means a player with "influence" on getting the sword can just refuse to vig, and thus hold on to it stubbornly.

Exactly. Does it seem smarter to gamble on the 1/12 chance you are Arthur (as there are 12 that receive Knight Errant PMs) with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well, they shouldn’t because that’s antitown. I think DVa’s hurt tags are a great idea. The two players with the most hurt tags, need to agree to gladiate each other. If players can refuse to do this, then how do we get any lynches?

This is why I want the mechanics talk first -- get consensus on following through the strategy, THEN follow it.

There's still no guarantee some player who wants to screw around also claims the sword, no guarantee that the player holding it vigs the next night, and so on.

Why either/or? I don’t see why the two need to be mutually exclusive.

Yes, we do need an effective strategy but it’s a bad idea to let scum hide under mechanics. We need to focus on both.

[Auro]

Exactly. Does it seem smarter to gamble on the 1/12 chance you are Arthur (as there are 12 that receive Knight Errant PMs) with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

In the abscence of strategy, the latter.
If there's a town strategy otherwise, former.

Merlin, if alive, could confirm the person holding it is Arthur. No Merlin approval means the person is definitely not Arthur -- following prior discussed strategy, what should they do then? Suicide to give it up, or hold on to it?

[Auro]

Why either/or? I don’t see why the two need to be mutually exclusive.

Yes, we do need an effective strategy but it’s a bad idea to let scum hide under mechanics. We need to focus on both.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do either. Seems like we have a player who probably would FoS just because "hey you're hiding behind mechanic talk", my point being it's important to reach consensus in any case.

[Nancy Drew 39]

This sounds reasonable, and no one that I’d want to promote this agenda for over LLD is around, so I’m in favor of this plan.

There's also a problem that she could just hold the sword and not vig anyone, destroying the point of the mechanic - and we wouldn't want to lynch her because she'd be an IC.

Why would they want to? If they aren’t Arthur they die, and their influence dies with them.
This looks like a scum thought.

I think Gamma is town for this. Because he’s obviously right. Merlin having the sword defeats the entire purpose of their role.

[Auro]

with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

Relatively new to the site, is there any individual who has reads much better than random?

Nancy, his post has nothing to do with Merlin holding the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Obviously yes, if we scumread Merlin, then they claim the sword - then can safely claim the following day. But the problem with that, is that the real Arthur can’t claim until Merlin dies in that case right? Because once you posses the sword you can never unclaim it. The only way the real Arthur could ever get the sword in that case, would be Merlin dying.

And if Merlin claims before they get the sword, then they’ll get NK’d. And if they say who Arthur is, then Arthur dies. So Merlin having the sword is really not much help.

I mean in the worst case, we get an IC for the rest of the game. Merlin killing themselves just to let the sword out in public makes this go to the previous state, so not so useful IMO

How can Merlin ever be confirmed IC? Only, the real Arthur can do that by vigging sucessfully.

[Auro]

Merlin having the sword defeats the entire purpose of their role.

What do you think is a good strategical direction to begin with? The previous parts where you agreed with top scumreads gladiating and winner claiming to shoot the next day, that also kinda doesn't involve Merlin. Unless Merlin decides to confirm IFF Arthur is holding it, in which case it brings up the question of what the holder should do, which I brought up.

Merlin getting the sword means they're an IC anyway, no?

[Auro]

I thought you were saying that if we force Merlin to gladiate, his getting the sword is useless - I'm saying it's just like Merlin is like any other Knight then, gets the sword and THAT makes him IC.

[Auro]

Making proper use of the Excalibur mechanic, to my eyes, is *heavily* reliant on town working together. Individual players pushing their own reads through, as opposed to forming consensus, would be anti-town. Am I wrong?

[Nancy Drew 39]

with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

Relatively new to the site, is there any individual who has reads much better than random?

Nancy, his post has nothing to do with Merlin holding the sword.

That isn’t the post I quoted. Gamma is agreeing with me that Merlin having the sword, defeats the entire purpose of his role - to help confirm Arthur. And Merlin can never be IC, only the real Arthur can and if Merlin claims the sword, we can never find that out until Merlin dies, so Merlin should absolutely never claim the sword.

[Auro]

What are you saying? Why can only the real Arthur be IC?
If it's guaranteed only one player is claiming the sword, and the sword holder says he's Merlin, why will you NOT treat him as IC? That the sword has been claimed means scum didn't claim it.
That would be a terrible fakeclaim especially if the real Merlin's still hanging around.

[Auro]

Nancy, I have a suspicion you read the setup mechanics wrong. Or I did, correct me if I did.

[Auro]

Also, since you're implying a strategy should necessarily involve Merlin's ability to confirm Arthur, can you propose one? ATM strategies I can think of either defeat the point of Merlin, or Arthur, not make use of both.

[Auro]

If there are players who have muuuch better than random reads with this player list, and there's consensus on that OR objective proof of that, I'll find myself *slightly* agreeing more with the idea of having a strong town leader IC, and discarding the whole Merlin/Arthur mechanic.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Merlin having the sword defeats the entire purpose of their role.

What do you think is a good strategical direction to begin with? The previous parts where you agreed with top scumreads gladiating and winner claiming to shoot the next day, that also kinda doesn't involve Merlin. Unless Merlin decides to confirm IFF Arthur is holding it, in which case it brings up the question of what the holder should do, which I brought up.

Merlin getting the sword means they're an IC anyway, no?

Merlin getting the sword does confirms them town, so yes but how are they more useful to town than any other townie, since anyone other than Arthur cannot vig with it and Merlin prevents the real Arthur from ever getting the sword, because they are the only townie who cannot be Arthur.

[Auro]

Merlin getting the sword does confirms them town, so yes but how are they more useful to town than any other townie, since anyone other than Arthur cannot vig with it and Merlin prevents the real Arthur from ever getting the sword, because they are the only townie who cannot be Arthur.

Then you're agreeing with me. I said IN worst case, at least we have that one IC anyway.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What are you saying? Why can only the real Arthur be IC?
If it's guaranteed only one player is claiming the sword, and the sword holder says he's Merlin, why will you NOT treat him as IC? That the sword has been claimed means scum didn't claim it.
That would be a terrible fakeclaim especially if the real Merlin's still hanging around.

No, obviously anyone who claims the sword, will be confirmed town. The point is that unless Merlin loses the gadiate, it’s pointless otherwise for him to try to claim the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy, I have a suspicion you read the setup mechanics wrong. Or I did, correct me if I did.

I still very confused about some aspects of it, like we get a gladiate to happen. I do understand that the point of the Merlin role, is to confirm Arthur and since Merlin can never be Arthur, it’s better that they not claim the sword, unless they absolutely have to. Merlin should never volunteer to take the sword.

[Auro]

No, obviously anyone who claims the sword, will be confirmed town. The point is that unless Merlin loses the gadiate, it’s pointless otherwise for him to try to claim the sword.

If Merlin loses the gladiate, he dies.
The 'unless' being the 'worst case' I was referring to, where he's forced to gladiate and

wins

the gladiate.

Can you point out the part where I've contradicted myself, seeing otherwise as we're in agreement about this?

Also, your basis for a townread on Gamma is that he pointed out something that's not really that hard to deduce? How strong is this townread?

I know that INDEPENDENT of the previous discussed strategy, if Merlin simply claims the sword it's discarding the Merlin mechanic, but I still won't be quick to dismiss that idea so fast, much less townread someone for that. Also, previous challenge is still up where you come up with a strat that makes use of both the Merlin and Arthur mechanics.

[DVa]

Dude Merlin doesn't claim the sword, that's mechanical redundancy and strictly anti-town

We want two ICs not one, wtf, you're better than this people

[Auro]

I still very confused about some aspects of it, like we get a gladiate to happen. I do understand that the point of the Merlin role, is to confirm Arthur and since Merlin can never be Arthur, it’s better that they not claim the sword, unless they absolutely have to. Merlin should never volunteer to take the sword.

Again, where have I said they should? O.o In the strategy I'm leaning towards ATM, they should never get into a gladiate preferably, and if they do, should claim it.

Which part of the gladiate are you confused about?

The role having a point to it doesn't necessarily mean we can come up with an awesome strategy that involves it, which implies that we can't simply dismiss proposed strategies that don't make use of it. Agree?

@DVa: I'm not saying he should, gosh.

[Auro]

In case we DO have a Merlin claim, we should let them claim, a fakeclaim by scum would mean suicide the next day anyway.

Is it this you're referring to?
If the true Merlin claims, town would lose them to a NK anyway.
If it's a fakeclaim, and the real Merlin stays hidden, this exposes them as scum.
If you're arguing that it's better for real!Merlin to counterclaim in this case, okay -- I see your point.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Merlin getting the sword does confirms them town, so yes but how are they more useful to town than any other townie, since anyone other than Arthur cannot vig with it and Merlin prevents the real Arthur from ever getting the sword, because they are the only townie who cannot be Arthur.

Then you're agreeing with me. I said IN worst case, at least we have that one IC anyway.

Yes but at some point, if the real Arthur is still in the game, Merlin would probably need to fake vig at that point to allow Arthur to have it. But the one problem with the confitown by sword claiming theory, is that it can only work until that player attempts to vig, because once any player has it and doesn’t use it, it cannot be claimed by another player, so no one should claim but the consensus scumread.