Excalibur [Endgame]

[Ariane]

Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.

Sure. Give me Excalibur.

Town should probably vote for a consensus scumread to claim Excalibur, for maximum benefit. If they're scum they can't claim and we get a confirmation in the night. If they're not scum and claim we know they're IC -- they're gonna either contribute the next day and kill themselves, or Merlin confirms they're Arthur and we move on.

Aw man why are you asking me to properly consider mechanics posts

well there's losing two conftown N2 and N3 which might not be ideal, I think someone already said that, and also losing the vig. But I think probably that the vig is kind of like a shiny distraction and following it too obsessively will lead to a loss (eg like said above, worst-case scenario) 3 town dead by D2

tbh I think I might also be more instinctively inclined to it cos it lets us get down to playing mafia after 13 pages of mostly mechanics lol. Like I knew going in there'd be discussion but also a balance to be had here

[Ariane]

^sorry zombie quote

[Varsoon]

Talking mechs is the most NAI/scummy content you can ever bring yourself to talk about because you're talking about something that is rather simple instead of scumhunting like you should be doing overall the mech talk. If you look at this game in the most basic sense it's red flag with 2 ICs with everyone having a gladiator power. If we work together on using hurt tags to put up the 2 people everyone finds the most scummy that is gonna be more useful then fighting over what the 'best plan' for the sword is. What you're doing isn't helpful it's more anti town then not

It's baffling that you're coming to the same conclusion as me but you're scumreading me for coming to that conclusion.
I don't get it.

@Nancy: Sorry, got worked up, don't really want anyone to die or anything like that, but it is frustrating that people are way overthinking this and getting taken for a ride.
I don't mean to insult anyone personally; I don't trust the entire playerlist and I think DVa's plan keeps us too mechanics focused while giving up the one strength we have from this setup.

@Auro: Misleading us how? I've been forthright with everything and I wouldn't even call it 'leading' to say we should just play the game the way it was probably designed to be played.

[Auro]

@Auro: Misleading us how? I've been forthright with everything and I wouldn't even call it 'leading' to say we should just play the game the way it was probably designed to be played.

I'm just gonna hope someone already explained to Varsoon why this is incorrect and if not I'll do it after I finish catching up. Although I expect him to know better. First Fos goes to him.

MariaR seems to be insinuating that you're being deliberately misleading in your post, or that's how I interpreted it; that's what I'm talking about. I don't think you're being misleading ATM myself.

[Auro]

Aw man why are you asking me to properly consider mechanics posts

well there's losing two conftown N2 and N3 which might not be ideal, I think someone already said that, and also losing the vig. But I think probably that the vig is kind of like a shiny distraction and following it too obsessively will lead to a loss (eg like said above, worst-case scenario) 3 town dead by D2

tbh I think I might also be more instinctively inclined to it cos it lets us get down to playing mafia after 13 pages of mostly mechanics lol. Like I knew going in there'd be discussion but also a balance to be had here

Reflects my own eventual thought progression on it. Townreading you.

[Something_Smart]

oh dear lord

please be mindful of my activity constraints, I will try to contribute as much as I can

Only read the first 6 pages because my wifi crapped out and I don't have a lot of data, but I'm okay with LLD claiming the sword

[VeridianCleric]

I'm also trying to wrap my head around if having a secret bulletproof town player is stronger than having a bulletproof IC.

IC?

[VeridianCleric]

Everyone let us all begin by giving our Arthur reveal.

If you don’t know what I mean I am saying we all soft Merlin role and claim a person to be Arthur.
In case Merlin is night killed/lynched by accident we have our cleared townie.

Let me begin:
Varsoon is Arthur

Liking this idea, will/did somebody do a compiled list of these for quick easy reflection later

Auro is Arthur

[VeridianCleric]

Because your plan requires atleast one of them to be a willing participant to challenge the other.

It sure does, but if town agrees that having top scumreads duel each other is preferable to having people yolo duel then maybe it will discourage people from yolo dueling.

Most games with this mechanic are lost or become frustrating/boring for town because of yolo dueling. So there needs to be a clear town position that yolo dueling will result in losing the duel.

What's YOLO dueling?

[Auro]

@Veridian, for easier clarification, just pool in all questions in one post without quotes and I'll try to answer in a list!

[VeridianCleric]

Everyone let us all begin by giving our Arthur reveal.

If you don’t know what I mean I am saying we all soft Merlin role and claim a person to be Arthur.
In case Merlin is night killed/lynched by accident we have our cleared townie.

Let me begin:
Varsoon is Arthur

Fuuuuck no
Read the mechanics again.

Ah Gamma your no fun Firebringers idea was good because we the anybody who is unwilling is likely scum and the true Merlin can't say the actual Arthur so can pick somebody who is not he
therefore They who be Merlin can safely point at any other fellow muggle to distract the scum. If Merlin gets dueled/killed than we know the target is not Arthur.

[VeridianCleric]

@Auro
Thanks will do, I kept looking at the wrong thread for D1 start, catching up, but will have to re-connect after work for the rest of the pages

[Something_Smart]

On page 11.
Confirming the highest number of town is not the best goal. If an obvious townie who was going to die at night turns out to be confirmed, it does nothing for us.

What we want is one of two things: confirmed townies that scum can't kill before it matters (either BP or confirmed

in LYLO

), or being able to choose who gets confirmed (because we can pick scummy players to get either guiltied or confirmed).

I'm going to try not to directly get involved in the setup discussion. But I want everyone to either accept this principle or tell me why you think it's wrong.

[Something_Smart]

I think you and DVa are both equally sincere, so I’m townreading both of you for it.

There's a non-negligible possibility that Varsoon is sitting in the scum PT going "I wonder if I can convince them to follow this stupid-ass plan."

That is consistent with what I know of him.

[Auro]

Confirming the highest number of town is not the best goal. If an obvious townie who was going to die at night turns out to be confirmed, it does nothing for us.

What we want is one of two things: confirmed townies that scum can't kill before it matters (either BP or confirmed in LYLO), or being able to choose who gets confirmed (because we can pick scummy players to get either guiltied or confirmed).

Just for clarification; an example of the former being random claim on the sword and holding on to it, and only claiming before being pushed to gladiate, and an example of the latter being a scumread claiming and attempting to shoot?

[Auro]

"Claim" can take two meanings, I'll rephrase:
Former -> Random sword claim and hold on, reveal that you're Merlin/sword-holder when pushed to gladiate
Latter -> Scumread gladiate winner claims sword and shoots.

[Auro]

What we want is one of two things: confirmed townies that scum can't kill before it matters (either BP or confirmed in LYLO), or being able to choose who gets confirmed (because we can pick scummy players to get either guiltied or confirmed).

I'm going to try not to directly get involved in the setup discussion. But I want everyone to either accept this principle or tell me why you think it's wrong.

Agree.

[Varsoon]

It's not a stupid ass plan to narrow the lynch pool you fucking mong
We literally only win game if we lynch enough scum.
You're over here like "Lol our ICs shouldn't claim till LYLO"
Oh yeah great fucking idea
so if scum doesn't KILL MERLIN before then, fucking that plan entirely, we're looking at a LYLO where scum can just fucking FAKE CLAIM MERLIN ANYWAY BECAUSE IT'S AN IC BY CLAIM NOT BY ROLE USAGE

[Varsoon]

@Veridian: IC is a term that means 'Innocent Child'. It's a role that's confirmed as town by the moderator. Here, we don't actually have any ICs, but due to the moderator/setup info, we know that anyone claiming Merlin is either town or a liar and that Merlin knows who Arthur is, which confirms another town player, and that only town can claim the sword, so if the sword is claimed, we know the player who has it is confirmed as town and Merlin can confirm their claim as sword-haver.

[Varsoon]

Basically, if Merlin dies, we lose all of our ICs because
1. Scum can claim they have the sword when they don't.
2. Merlin has to claim who Arthur is for Arthur to be IC.

This all goes to shit in a MYLO/LYLO because scum have higher incentive to fake-claim and force a 50/50 instead of taking the worse odds.

[Varsoon]

My plan ensures that if Merlin survives a single night, we get the most utility out of all of our roles.
Everyone else's plans all hinge heavily on all players doing as they are told while also still being liable to losing to scum in LYLO situations.

[Auro]

@Varsoon: He said confirmed *in* LyLo, not claiming in LyLo, there's a difference, right?
You don't think Merlin/Swordholder works better as a hidden IC till the day before LyLo, as opposed to coming out in D2 where he becomes an obvious NK?

[Varsoon]

Something_Smart over there in his scum PT like "Shit shit we gotta shut down Varsoon's plan because it's the fucking ideal one that gives town the best chances of winning. Let me propose some shit where our ICs lose all effectiveness entirely"

Oh wow surprise that line of posturing is garbage and does nothing to advance reads.
HURT: Something_Smart
Fucking moronic.
Delete your account and make a new one called Something_Scummy or Something_Stupid if you're gonna keep that shit up.

P-EDIT:
@Auro: Swordholder's the only IC that gets to stay hidden because that's how their BP keeps its effectiveness.
Merlin should always claim D2 because otherwise Merlin's death makes us lose info on who Arthur is.
It doesn't matter if it's the 'OBVIOUS' NK, it gates the NK and shrinks our lynch pool.

[Untrod Tripod]

@Varsoon: He said confirmed *in* LyLo, not claiming in LyLo, there's a difference, right?
You don't think Merlin/Swordholder works better as a hidden IC till the day before LyLo, as opposed to coming out in D2 where he becomes an obvious NK?

It's not confirmable.

An example from 3p LYLO.
Player 1: I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 2: No, I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 3: Oh no! This plan had an obvious hole in it! Who could have ever predicted it!

I don't love us trying to "solve" the game like it's a fucking math problem. What I've seen in other games when this happened was scum got to hide in mechanics talk all game instead of having to actually engage with other players.

oh and no thanks on hurt tags. I say you gladiate your scum reads. I joined this game because the mechanics were different. Let's keep it different.

[Untrod Tripod]

this is a fun game because it gives over half the game the chance to be BP vig. Who doesn't want that power? I'm claiming the sword every time I can and I'm going to try to vig shit. If I die I die. I'm more interested in having a unique experience than I am in trying to game the setup to be something it wasn't designed to be.