Excalibur [Endgame]

[Nancy Drew 39]

Dunnstrall isn't trying to rope me into more mechanics discussion when it's already pissed me off so much the mod warned me to stop.

I'm done talking about mechanics.

Also, I really think people should look at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77673 and try to evaluate if Auro's play here matches how he played in this scum win he literally got today. I'm way way way too close to it to make an unbiased judgment.

Holy shit, he sounds very similar here. Can someone link me to an Auro town game for comparison purposes?

[Nancy Drew 39]

random notes continued:

-This is mostly gut but I want to call this Dunn's town game.
-the trio of varsoon, LLD and UT going for the sword sounds good to me, I'm decently confident there's at least one or two scum in there
-I've noticed nancy has disappeared from the thread. could be she just went to bed but also i'm susp that she never put any scumhunting content out.
-d.va 595 is the post I would've made right around then if I was around. which I like.
-I'd really like some scumreads from Elsa too.
-I can't believe PLing an IC actually has to come up as a topic of discussion
-S_S 638 was town as shit
-I also agree with dva 640 and 648 - it's a super stupid topic
-663 was the kind of post I wanted from Veridian, excellent. It's not an especially good post (a lot of thread summary) but it'll surely be useful later once we have some flips.

I'm caught up to where I posted last night so ~6 more pages. I'd throw nancy and Kokichi in the hurt pile too but less strong on Kokichi. Plenty of good vig targets
HURT: nancy
HURT: kokichi

Why? Have you read any of my scumgames on this site? I’m guessing no.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I think we should limit ourselves to 2 Hurts at maximum and FoS for the rest.

Someone should also keep a list, so we don’t lose track of them.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I think we should limit ourselves to 2 Hurts at maximum and FoS for the rest.

I could actually be persuaded to do the whole Hurt thing if we only have one or two and keep track of it like an actual VC.

Hell, I'll even volunteer to be the person who keeps track.

Alright, feeling a bit better about you now. So, you’re main objection, was too many hurt tags?

[Untrod Tripod]

my objection was twofold:

1. The setup is designed around dueling and I joined it specifically for that mechanic (along with the excalibur vig). People being able to say "Fuck it, 1v1" is why this setup is unique. Plus, it will force people to take stands in situations they would not have to in an ordinary setup. It's not the Hurts necessarily, it's people trying to box the entire playerlist into not playing the setup as it's designed when it was the primary reason some of us joined. I'm okay with keeping track of people's reads and top scumspects, but I think it's horseshit to tell people not the play the setup the way it's designed.

2. I am wary of any manner of play that allows people to not take real stands on their reads. That's why votes are great. If we at least treat Hurts like they're a vote and people have to actually answer for them then sure I'll acquiesce to that just being for me a method of how we keep track of reads in a voteless game and for others something more serious. We're at least basically all on the same page there. Otherwise it's wishy washy nonsense that is a waste of everyone's time and allows scum to hide.

[Untrod Tripod]

Like, a number of people have said "omg you want to hurt TOWN COHESION" but all I saw in that plan (the one of "omg only duel if everyone agrees to it") is a way for scum to hide slash direct town to mislynches. I'm guessing the fantasy is that you'll somehow convince scum to duel each other, but I don't think that ever really happens. Otherwise my experience tells me that it's not materially any better than someone just dueling a strong scumread.

[DVa]

UT, as people have observed, this is in some ways a toned down version of BoR. BoR was a disaster for town precisely because people yolo dueled every dayphase which nuked the chance for town to develop reads or really sort before hammers were thrown out. Also, while you say that "this is what makes the setup unique" that doesn't mean that's how it actually is played toward a town wincon. In fact, FakeGod observed that townies treating the mechanic as a hero shot *went against how he imagined it playing out*. In fact I think the reason this looks so much like BoR is because he saw BoR as a kind of failure and wanted to put in a bit more of a buffer so that town at least have a chance to sort and have a bit more of a guaranteed length to the dayphase instead of letting individuals immediately end day because they had a read.

The setup didn't play out the way I envisioned because town treated the desperados as hero shots (or really a selfish way to get "infinite" votes and decide the day immediately), rather than a mechanic to clear two people with each lynch. I thought if I included a heavy penalty for desperado shots (which was any death = end the day), town would show more hesitance with their desperado shots. I was wrong and players hip-fired every day.

So you saying people who want some amount of coordination are "not playing the setup as it's designed" suggests to me you think FakeGod created a "yoloduel" game when that is not what he actually does and is not how many of us are going into this game.

a number of people have said "omg you want to hurt TOWN COHESION" but all I saw in that plan (the one of "omg only duel if everyone agrees to it") is a way for scum to hide slash direct town to mislynches. I'm guessing the fantasy is that you'll somehow convince scum to duel each other, but I don't think that ever really happens. Otherwise my experience tells me that it's not materially any better than someone just dueling a strong scumread.

I have basically been saying hurt tags are votes so I don't see why you thought they were anything else. I don't see why you'd think it's any more of a way for scum to hide than normal voting is when basically what we're doing is voting on the people we want to see gladiate, which is effectively the same thing as lynching them, the key *difference from normal voting that the person who doesn't get lynched might become an innocent child if they claim the sword*. The setup is different.

But treating this game as a "yolo duel" fest will turn it into another scum win disaster like BoR which is why some of us started off this game a) making sure people understood that yolo dueling would result in a lynch on them and not their scumread and b) making sure people still tried to maintain some basic modicum of town coordination. I know you weren't in BoR so you were not coming from that trainwreck so your context here is different but I also don't get why you felt the need to make it seem like the setup was obvious in its design when how we play dayphases is actually quite open to interpretation.

[DVa]

Why? Have you read any of my scumgames on this site? I’m guessing no.

Which of your scumgames do you think are most informative for reads on you Nancy?

[DVa]

Holy shit, he sounds very similar here. Can someone link me to an Auro town game for comparison purposes?

Since Auro has apparently decided that if I don't play every game like Newbie 1899 I'm therefore scum, you should probably take a glance at it since it also gives a sense of how he approaches an almost entirely new playerlist as town: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77730

I did at first get his read on me because I do sound very different here than I did there, so I get he doesn't understand that I entered this game playing it to avoid a town gamethrow like BoR, which the mod clearly wanted to learn some lessons from. But he's still scum because pushing a "you're not funny" meta case on me when he's townreading me based on play suggests that he has an agenda and is beneath his townplay frankly. He would consider a lot more scenarios than the one's he's been willing to entertain here; his cases as scum tend to read a lot weaker and his attempts to pocket me earlier today are also why I wasn't townreading him earlier.

[Untrod Tripod]

yeah I never said I wanted "a yoloduel fest". you're arguing against a position I never took. we're actually on a similar page although you care more about coordination than I do but I'm willing to work with you on that

[Nancy Drew 39]

my objection was twofold:

1. The setup is designed around dueling and I joined it specifically for that mechanic (along with the excalibur vig). People being able to say "Fuck it, 1v1" is why this setup is unique. Plus, it will force people to take stands in situations they would not have to in an ordinary setup. It's not the Hurts necessarily, it's people trying to box the entire playerlist into not playing the setup as it's designed when it was the primary reason some of us joined. I'm okay with keeping track of people's reads and top scumspects, but I think it's horseshit to tell people not the play the setup the way it's designed.

2. I am wary of any manner of play that allows people to not take real stands on their reads. That's why votes are great. If we at least treat Hurts like they're a vote and people have to actually answer for them then sure I'll acquiesce to that just being for me a method of how we keep track of reads in a voteless game and for others something more serious. We're at least basically all on the same page there. Otherwise it's wishy washy nonsense that is a waste of everyone's time and allows scum to hide.

Like, a number of people have said "omg you want to hurt TOWN COHESION" but all I saw in that plan (the one of "omg only duel if everyone agrees to it") is a way for scum to hide slash direct town to mislynches. I'm guessing the fantasy is that you'll somehow convince scum to duel each other, but I don't think that ever really happens. Otherwise my experience tells me that it's not materially any better than someone just dueling a strong scumread.

The most important thing is to keep track of them like a VC and maybe, people should order them to. Then, we can make a list of everyone’s #1 duel pick.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Why? Have you read any of my scumgames on this site? I’m guessing no.

Which of your scumgames do you think are most informative for reads on you Nancy?

Pretty much any one: Heroes, Overkill 1. I barely posted in Dance. That’s the extent of my scum history on here.

I was an SK in Overkill 1 though.

[Auro]

But he's still scum because pushing a "you're not funny" meta case on me when he's townreading me based on play suggests that he has an agenda and is beneath his townplay frankly. He would consider a lot more scenarios than the one's he's been willing to entertain here; his cases as scum tend to read a lot weaker and his attempts to pocket me earlier today are also why I wasn't townreading him earlier.

And where exactly was I "pushing" that hard or strong? I just FoS'd you because of it initially, and literally stated I'm open to changing my mind if others disagreed. This was never my strongest of pushes.

I was open to considering more scenarios. I frankly expected town!DVa would react differently to my bringing it up. It wasn't a tunnel. I didn't like most of that exchange.

Also, umm, I believe meta cases in general aren't particularly strong -- so my aligning towards a read because of meta reasons would always be "not strong" and therefore, according to you, scummy.

Also yeah, my pocketing agenda was amaaaazing, what with me directly agreeing with Varsoon and expressing extreme disdain for perfect town cohesion. No. Pocketing would mean I actually fully agree with your philosophies and fight for them. What scum motivation did I have to agree with Varsoon? Actually, what I said before still holds -- case me and explain the scum motivations behind what I did.

And I didn't townread you based on play, oh no. I weak-townread you at that point because I could see how your thoughts would naturally lead to the posts you made. Something I've later decided was a wrong judgment.

[Auro]

Is that necessarily a meta thing though or could the difference in her play be possibly be a result of the different and complex mechanics in this game?

But you’re right about her being more serious than usual in this game.

Have you played with scum!DVa before and is “seriousness” a part of her scum meta?

Not necessarily a meta thing, and not a strong tell, as I have stated.

I've played alongside scum!DVa before, and "seriousness" is a part of her scum meta -- just check her games. What makes this stronger is that she won't deny that she *finds it harder* to be chummy as scum. Just ask her that.

This makes it not a small-sample meta, but an admission that there's a certain behaviour she finds it HARD to adopt as scum.

What do you think now?

[Auro]

Being aggressive doesn’t make you town. Ever played with scum!Thor?

Did I townread someone for aggression?
Gladiating without town consensus is anti-town, not just aggressive.
What are you asking me, exactly?

Are you townreading UT for opposing hurt tags? Anti-town play more often than not=scum play.

No. Read UT's later posts. I can totally understand his perspective. You have people going "Oh stop discussing mechanics, just make reads and play the game" and getting TR'd for it. Why does UT get SR'd? Like hell, he even said he wouldn't yolo gladiate as an IC because he wants town for have fun, and is open to using hurt tags in a controlled way, and even volunteered.

Nancy, anti-town in *this* game is a lot less simple. "I don't want to cooperate on a lame ass town governed plan because I want to have fun actually playing the game's mechanics" is an argument that can genuinely come from a town player, no?

[Auro]

Dunnstrall isn't trying to rope me into more mechanics discussion when it's already pissed me off so much the mod warned me to stop.

I'm done talking about mechanics.

Also, I really think people should look at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77673 and try to evaluate if Auro's play here matches how he played in this scum win he literally got today. I'm way way way too close to it to make an unbiased judgment.

Holy shit, he sounds very similar here. Can someone link me to an Auro town game for comparison purposes?

I'm just a 1.5 months old, just go to my profile and read. I only have two completed scum and two completed town games.

I'll be impressed if anyone makes an objective meta-case on me off my scumgames, *as town*. And flattered that my scumgame and towngame are that hard to distinguish. And relieved that next game, people are going to frickin' stop meta-casing me on effort because I played one CLOSED game as town and didn't post much.

DVa is posing it like it was the unfamiliarity with the playerbase in 2040 that made me play differently, I object. It's because closed games are *hard* to dive into the first time, as I hope you all would agree. And we had weirdly behaving players, like a VT fakeclaiming daycop -- making me all the more confused.

[DVa]

I've played alongside scum!DVa before, and "seriousness" is a part of her scum meta -- just check her games. What makes this stronger is that she won't deny that she *finds it harder* to be chummy as scum. Just ask her that.

You've played alongside scum!me *replacing in to a townread slot in an already winning position on day 2* where I was under absolutely no obligation or expectation to 'chum it up' and where I *was not in RVS*. So again, you are saying I wouldn't be jokey in RVS as scum when your only example there is *a game where I was scumread from pregame and nearly lynched in RVS* and a game *where I was not in RVS*. Like, your meta argument *is shit* because you are comparing games where I have been *jokey in RVS as town* to games where either *I was not in RVS* or games *where there IS NO RVS* and the whole fucking point of my mechanics discussion here was to get to the point that we could *have meaningful votes at all and not just yolo duel*

>Town!DVa is jokey in RVS
>Scum!DVa has never been in RVS where she wasn't already getting lynched
>This game had no RVS

-->making an argument about how many JOKES I would make in a PHASE OF THE GAME THAT DID NOT OCCUR THIS GAME is LUDICROUS

Get gladiated so I can lynch you kthxbai

[DVa]

DVa is posing it like it was the unfamiliarity with the playerbase in 2040 that made me play differently, I object

I am arguing that you making reachy, bullshit arguments that reflect a large number of baseless assumptions is ABSOLUTELY scum indicative for you

[Auro]

And DVa, you're miscontruing pocketing. I agree with you on a lot of things outside of this game, and also see you as a team player I like working with. I'm naturally going to want to trust you and work with you in any game. Do you genuinely not see me doing this? Every game you can throw a lens over my early interactions with you and say I'm pocketing.

Pedit: I'm not saying it's an RVS thing, I think chumminess is your general preferred style. I don't think added chumminess or cozying up with friends (say, me, for example) is going to be a detriment towards building town cohesion. When did I say my meta case was built upon RVS behavior?

Also, answer this: Set this game aside. DO you find it harder to be chummy as scum? To what degree?

I don't get the aggression. I was only FoSing you at that time and engaged with your objections to it, resulting in you calling my engagement a "scum push" and hurting me for that. After our last Newbie game, I would have totally expected town!DVa to say "I am behaving differently, but that's because I think joking around can be a negative and distract from focusing on building cohesion. I think these players {} would also concur".
This is because you *know* that I tunnel as town, mislynched someone off that, and stated that I'll be less stubborn and trust others' views.

[Auro]

DVa is posing it like it was the unfamiliarity with the playerbase in 2040 that made me play differently, I object

I am arguing that you making reachy, bullshit arguments that reflect a large number of baseless assumptions is ABSOLUTELY scum indicative for you

How is it reachy when I acknowledge that it's weak and I'm open to changing my mind?

What are the BS arguments that make baseless assumptions? In my scumgame with Varsoon, my fake case on Egix looked pretty legit, enough to convince everyone to go for him. So I'm capable of pushing strong cases when I need to, as scum.

[DVa]

Your case is that I'm unfunny this game.

That is reachy bullshit and not even remotely scum indicative, in addition to being simply lowkey insulting considering the game barely fucking began, and apparently you're now a fucking expert on how "chummy" I am at a baseline and also an expert on when people are saying and doing stupid things in a game that pisses me off. Every other argument you're making seems like it's meant to piss me off more than advance the game and it's sure as shit working. Your townplay isn't this fucking passive aggressive or manipulative.

I know you're capable of less shitty cases than this as scum but I also don't think I'm your planned mislynch for today, I think you wanted towncred for a shitty push on someone you have existing meta with. Either that or you've simply decided to make the douchiest possible day 1 meta case of me, in which case, you made a serious fucking mistake because I am rapidly losing interest in entertaining arguments you're town.

Get gladiated.

[Auro]

OK, and I'm already familiar with the vast majority of this player list. So maybe I'm not being as "chummy" because I have already used most of my opening jokes with half the players in this game, and the ones I'm unfamiliar with haven't really inspired me to be funny

I don't like that this was your defense at that point of time, given now you say:

I did at first get his read on me because I do sound very different here than I did there, so I get he doesn't understand that I entered this game playing it to avoid a town gamethrow like BoR, which the mod clearly wanted to learn some lessons from.

[DVa]

Yes, I *both* thought that we needed to avoid a shitty gladiation and *also* thought my existing jokes were overused. I had *both* positive incentive to talk about mechanics and reign in the incentive for yolo gladiations and *negative incentive* to do my usual schtick. This is not hard to understand and once again you are presenting things that are *not* contradictions as contradictions, i.e., REACHY BULLSHIT

[Untrod Tripod]

Get gladiated.

[Auro]

Your case is that I'm unfunny this game.

That is reachy bullshit and not even remotely scum indicative, in addition to being simply lowkey insulting considering the game barely fucking began, and apparently you're now a fucking expert on how "chummy" I am at a baseline and also an expert on when people are saying and doing stupid things in a game that pisses me off. Every other argument you're making seems like it's meant to piss me off more than advance the game and it's sure as shit working. Your townplay isn't this fucking passive aggressive or manipulative

Firstly, sure -- if it was a reachy case at that point, I WAS open to changing my mind, and it was never a strong case.

FMPOV, you could very well be scum, and it's important for me not to sheep you on whatever you say till I actually sort you.

I've never once, in this game, launched any personal attack on you, and you know full well that town!Auro can tunnel on an invalid case and wants to make an effort to be less stubborn.

Where was I passive aggressive? Can you explain this a little more?