Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Nauci]

Skitter we're finally going to be able to Lynch mewtaph. Ut you're v/la qq

[AlmostNancy]

#4080 is so full of misreps and twisting of facts its comical. you guys will have to take the blinkers off at some point. just because she has 1 game of scum ever in her meta and played badly in it doesnt mean you should locktown and never reevaluate if she isnt obvious floundering scum. people improve a lot after being scum the first time.

Can you point out some of the misreps?

That post is 100% town!Shoshin, which is why I temporarily wrongly scumread her because I couldn’t believe for a moment that town!Shoshin would ever be scumreading me for the reasons she gave. She read me correctly in RC uPick game, so now this all makes sense. I need to find her posts “pushing” me, to try to understand her Mitillos case.

But no way, does that post ever come from scum!Shoshin.

[Shoshin]

If Xtom's town, then Mitillos is scum, 100%.

[the worst]

@Shoshin in a nutshell I think Xtoxm's lassaiz-faire attitude, comfort with real-time interactions and kinda passive knowledge of how people are interacting with his slot/his position in the gamestate is not easy to fake as smoothly as he would've been. He's reasonable as scum but he's very Old Meta Good Scum where he can drop a reasonable post then disappear for a while and slide by on the towncred for it. But he's not playing like Old Meta Good Scum. He doesn't feel as like, stiff and forced.

I agree his scumread on you wasn't great but I disliked Varsoon's more and the way he originally spun around on you looked like a caricature of his towngame. Imo Xtoxm needs to get over the fact you are just not scum and this many people aren't wrong but his stubbornness doesn't actually vibe agendaey; same as his nulltown paranoid read on me. neither of us are viable mislynches unless we make it to 3p and the game hasn't ended or something. Xtoxm eats a lynch if he tries to 1v1 one of us. EOD.

I'm not sure if his scumrange as a returning player is broad enough to be this silky smooth?

I'm kinda applying different reasoning to the "returning scum meta" argument Mathdino used to townread Zoronos correctly in A50's game and I'm trying to work out of this holds up..

[Xtoxm]

@nauci

1. Xtom's early scumread on me doesn't come from the perspective of someone actually trying to sort my alignment. Compare Xtom's read with Performer's, for example. Performer actually traces specific behaviors that lead to a scumread, whereas Xtom just says he doesn't like the early townreads. Yet he ignores everyone else who's been giving out early townreads, which suggests that he's not actually concerned about players giving out early townreads; there's an ulterior reason he's scumreading me. I think the most plausible explanation for Xtom's early play is that he scumread me as part of a

scum agenda to pocket Varsoon

(see, for example, his early post to Varsoon about "hoping they're on the same team this game") as well as to keep me available as a mislynch.

2. Xtom's emotions don't feel natural for a townie. For example, he expresses emotions of

disgust towards the early parts of the game where lots of players were giving out townreads

("disgust" isn't a natural townie emotion to seeing lots of townreads). I can point to numerous places where Xtom's emotions feel too strong or unnatural for the events that are happening. The emotions also don't square with his sort of emotionless attitude towards actual scumhunting.

3. Xtom's

reads are entirely survivalistic

. If you townread him, he townreads you. If you scumread him, he scumreads you. This isn't how town Xtom thinks, because town Xtom assumes that most townies are wrong about their reads. His

lack of paranoia about the players townreading him, as well as his consistent scumreads on the players scumreading him, comes from a scum agenda, not from a genuine attempt to sort alignments

. What is his scum agenda? It depends on the alignments of Performer/Key/Mew/Mitillos. Whatever their alignments, there's a clear scum agenda to Xtom's reads. Most importantly,

he's putting easily manipulated townies (e.g. Nancy, Varsoon) towards the top of his reads (especially Varsoon, who he's been actively pocketing from the start of the game)

. And he's setting certain players up as potential mislynches (me, Performer, Mitillos). He lists strong townies somewhere in the middle (e.g. the worst, Nauci), with occassional attempts to move them lower on his readslist (e.g. his attempt to scumread Nauci).

4. Xtom's still has me as his

top scumread

. I don't believe a townie ever scumreads me in this game to that extent, not after the way I've been playing, not after Irrelephant's defense of me or after Irrelephant's death, not after everyone who knows my town/scum meta strongly townreads me. It's fine to have some irrational paranoia about me, but listing me as a top scumread runs counter to everything that's actually happening in the game. It's very

unlikely that town Xtom genuinely trying to sort me sticks with me as their top suspect while not actually pushing me

. It reminds me of scum NSG in TAZ Mafia. She kept saying I was scummy without pushing me, biding her time until LYLO, when I got mislynched. I get the sense that Xtom's doing something similar, trying to keep me open as a mislynch while doing nothing to actually push me when my lynch isn't going to happen. If he actually thinks I'm most likely to flip scum, why isn't he pushing me more?

5. Xtom's won lots of games as scum.

He's a lot more competent scum than most players in this game give him credit for

. Clearing him for superficial reasons isn't helpful. His actions need to be looked at very carefully.

yknow looking at point 1 i do have to kinda admit most of it. my reason for voting her at the start was kind of shit. but i thought we already hashed this out? and now its being brought back up out of context.
i don't appecriate the notion that ive been trying to pocket varsoon. i would rather just go for a n1 nk on someone who knows me well than try to build a pocket, but i do see why people could be suspicious of the possibility.

[the worst]

I kinda forced myself to put on my fake mason hat wrt explaining town!xtoxm but that felt better than expected

[Nauci]

yknow looking at point 1 i do have to kinda admit most of it. my reason for voting her at the start was kind of shit. but i thought we already hashed this out? and now its being brought back up out of context.
i don't appecriate the notion that ive been trying to pocket varsoon. i would rather just go for a n1 nk on someone who knows me well than try to build a pocket, but i do see why people could be suspicious of the possibility.

Does this mean you only took issue with the portions talking about you?

[Xtoxm]

yknow looking at point 1 i do have to kinda admit most of it. my reason for voting her at the start was kind of shit. but i thought we already hashed this out? and now its being brought back up out of context.
i don't appecriate the notion that ive been trying to pocket varsoon. i would rather just go for a n1 nk on someone who knows me well than try to build a pocket, but i do see why people could be suspicious of the possibility.

Does this mean you only took issue with the portions talking about you?

correct.

[Xtoxm]

i think she actually makes good points about mit and i do have a scumread on that slot.

[Nauci]

That makes me feel better

I was agreeing with the post through the mitillos part and thought the bit on you was less solid, but could see where she was coming from

I view it as similar to when I cased Skitter, but with more conviction

I can understand the viewpoint that you were scummy this game, especially on d1, and I can definitely understand scum reading you for saying I was open wolfing (as well as your reasons for having said that)

[the worst]

VOTE: Mitillos
I agree.

[Xtoxm]

Imo Xtoxm needs to get over the fact you are just not scum and this many people aren't wrong

some of it is that im just not going to let someone deathtunnel me like this without pushback.
its not fun being deathtunneled.

[AlmostNancy]

Shoshin is basically never scum here but I'm also starting to think I should probably be townreading Nancy as well.

Why is she town?

More that this start to day two doesn't read like scum!her. She's a lot less aggressive and more pockety--i get that shooting Rel then tunnelling {you, me, Varsoon} is a good way to break up the PoE but I'm pretty sure Nancy realises as scum that she doesn't have the towncred to actually successfully pull it off. The way she's fighting you here is also pretty full of conviction (which she can fake to an extent but I don't think she sounds this good as scum unless she's on her A++ game).

I think you're severely underestimating her. She's obviously becoming more comfortable playing scum (there's clearly a progression in Heroes Wanted that shows her getting more comfortable over time) so yes she's capable of faking all this stuff. I haven't seen anything from her that's beyond her capabilities.

I don't understand how you can say she's town for fighting me with conviction. I feel like that's the easiest thing to fake as scum (outrage that someone's calling you scum isn't hard to do, especially when all you do is call the other person scum at the same time that you call their reads bad).

I see her overreacting in a way she wouldn't be as town

.

Okay, this is where Shoshin had me fooled.

[the worst]

I feel like you read the thread in a different way I do but in retrospect I kind of like the way you're talking through slots you don't like + why you don't like them etc. in real-time rather than just updating your reads when it feels necessary with retrospective explanations

[Xtoxm]

VOTE: Mitillos
I agree.

i want to join you here but i feel like its too soon to abandon Nancy after she asked em to vote Mew.
get this wagon rolling tho and im in.

[the worst]

Imo Xtoxm needs to get over the fact you are just not scum and this many people aren't wrong

some of it is that im just not going to let someone deathtunnel me like this without pushback.
its not fun being deathtunneled.

Yeah I'll pay that. but often tunnels are pretty alignment telling and outside of frustration I think Shoshin's read on you has been a a very very towny kind of tunnel.

she's not townread you yet but hasn't like, used you as an excuse to votepark someone or ever half assed her read on you. even now there's no feeling that it's a read she's fabricating imo, and her case on you just now was completely sensible and showed a solving mentality

like she's actually just obvtowning and not townreading you I'm pretty sure

[Nauci]

VOTE: Mitillos
I agree.

You prefer this over mew?

[Nauci]

I think mitillos is best left for tomorrow if we're not busy insta lynching kokichi, maybe

[Nauci]

Like even with a scum read on the slot I'd be against getting yet another claim from anyone today

[the worst]

FML I forgot about Mew... VOTE: Mewtaph
trying to sort Xtoxm/Mit was too much fun

[the worst]

actually Mit is probably a suboptimal lynch today if just for the fact he's obviously playing the game and should be sortable later

his recent post wrt townreads talking in circles actually pinged my sympathy (The Heroes Wanted Effect) just slightly

[Xtoxm]

psst i think u just hammered
i hope this is scum ;-;

[Mewtaph]

He did lol.

[Mewtaph]

I'm not going to reveal my specific info N1, but I was a modifier cop and I received a modifier that strongly indicates that someone is town. That person is Kokichi.

[AlmostNancy]

@AlNan: No, there are absolutely no ninjas in the game. No town ninjas, now non-town ninjas, no ninjas whatsoever. Also, I've been looking at a starcraft wiki, and

I would like you to look back extremely carefully and think really hard about whether your information makes Kokichi more suspicious

.

@Performer: I (and others) did ask for explanations. The reasoning didn't track. And it wasn't just about Mewtaph.

@skitter: It's not that town can't be illogical. I am also townleaning on AlNan, and you will recall I said that they've used fallacious reasoning before. But someone whose reasoning follows and is plainly possible to understand is more likely to be town, simply because they are not relying on fallacies; i.e. errors.

@Varsoon: Out of curiosity, do you get a result if scum try to kill someone and are blocked/jailkept, or only if their kill is actually attempted, as it were? In other words, does it look like there could be a jailkeeper around? Also, along the same lines, if you happen to be jailkept, will you still get whatever results you'd normally get?

Incidentally, Keyser's role, if true, is more of a half-investigative one (in that it doesn't tell us as much as a real investigative role). I wouldn't be surprised if in addition to his, we also have another less effective investigative role, like a watcher or something.

@Mitilos, I’m really curious. What have I posted about my informed flavour claim, that makes you think there’s any connection with Kokichi?