[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

[Thor665]

rb (L-4)

: Thor665, Something_Smart

Thor665 (L-4)

: Creature, rb

DarkLightA (L-5)

: Egix96

Malakitty (L-5)

: Auro

Nako, Leodanny, Malakitty, DarkLightA, Lamees

rb I would argue against as he looks eminently lynchable unless someone saw a PR crumb.
Auro I'd be fine with as he wasn't absorbing a lot of lynch energy yesterday.

This doesn't actually answer the question.

[Nako]

VOTE: Thor665
1 scum between Thor and rb.
Hopefully, Creature is town.
Lamees did not die so she is also a scum?

[Lamees]

VOTE: Thor665
1 scum between Thor and rb.
Hopefully, Creature is town.
Lamees did not die so she is also a scum?

I'm vanilla until I die. When I'm dead I get a shot. So how am I scum because I'm alive? I'm no doctor or cop.

[Nako]

Understandable.

[Auro]

VOTE: Thor665
1 scum between Thor and rb.
Hopefully, Creature is town.
Lamees did not die so she is also a scum?

Why Thor over RB?
If you're (or were) considering the possibility that Lamees is scum, why can't Thor v RB be TvT?

[Auro]

Why do you think that? I wouldn't describe my scum play that way.

By "that way" you mean specifically dictating the NK, yes? How is that relevant?
If you're scum and Persi's play was antithetical to your agenda, that enough is reason for you to suggest Persi as a NK rather than have to "dictate" it to your scumteam.

I can actually see why Persivul would be a great target for scum!you, apart from the fact that he seemed generally townread.

RB, who you're very aggressively pushing now, was townread by Persi.
I'm one of your "top scumspects", at least was at one point and I infer probably still am; Persi was townreading me earlier, and if it came down to one of us, he would've picked you for scum.

[Lamees]

Why do you think that? I wouldn't describe my scum play that way.

By "that way" you mean specifically dictating the NK, yes? How is that relevant?
If you're scum and Persi's play was antithetical to your agenda, that enough is reason for you to suggest Persi as a NK rather than have to "dictate" it to your scumteam.

I can actually see why Persivul would be a great target for scum!you, apart from the fact that he seemed generally townread.

RB, who you're very aggressively pushing now, was townread by Persi.
I'm one of your "top scumspects", at least was at one point and I infer probably still am; Persi was townreading me earlier, and if it came down to one of us, he would've picked you for scum.

Persivul's reads has nothing to do with it. If he town read you and scum read thor, it makes more sense for you to kill him. For example (a previous game), not mafia night killing you night 1 even though you both town read eachother day 1. It just made his ride to end game easier.

Who is likelier to have chosen the night kill target should never be a case imo. Too much wifom.

[Auro]

One thing disturbed me, when I read Creature's accusation of Thor's vote being "agenda-y".

Thor and RB are both "aggressive" players, in the sense that they laid down their thoughts and made their pushes pretty strongly throughout the game.
Both seemed to be getting wagoned today.

My fear is that it's easy to pick off a lot of actions from such players and read them as scum-indicative or construct a scum agenda around them. And it's a potentially dangerous problem in this game, I fear - due to the significant number of lurkslots.

I don't think we should rush a lynch today at all, and highly suggest that we actually aim to produce significant content from the lurkers in the meantime.

[Auro]

Persivul's reads has nothing to do with it. If he town read you and scum read thor, it makes more sense for you to kill him. For example (a previous game), not mafia night killing you night 1 even though you both town read eachother day 1. It just made his ride to end game easier.

Who is likelier to have chosen the night kill target should never be a case imo. Too much wifom.

Not_Maf didn't kill me N1 *because* I townread him.
If Persivul townread me and I him, it makes more sense

not

to kill him, even going by your example.

In most cases, reads have everything to do with NKs. Besides, I'm not saying Persivul's NK implicates Thor.
I'm saying a Persivul NK is highly consistent with Thor being scum, and doesn't have to be a "Thor-dictated" choice of NK.

[Auro]

Oh, sorry, bad phrasing.
Not_Maf killed me not because I townread him, he killed me inspite of that because I was on to Volxen and deemed pretty much unlynchable at that point.
Volxen was scum in that game.

[Lamees]

Volx time was limited in that game. I mean I can give more examples where lynching mutual town reads are much more beneficial. Heck I even did as scum myself and won that way. But I guess it doesn't matter. Because it can be anyone. Too much wifom.

[Creature]

Thor and RB are both "aggressive" players, in the sense that they laid down their thoughts and made their pushes pretty strongly throughout the game.

Their ISO is way different though.

[Creature]

Also I'm assuming scum are more likely to votepark on the top trend that town doesn't seem to move on.

[Auro]

Volx time was limited in that game. I mean I can give more examples where lynching mutual town reads are much more beneficial. Heck I even did as scum myself and won that way. But I guess it doesn't matter. Because it can be anyone. Too much wifom.

I disagree, I think lynching mutual townreads is really bad scumplay -- simply because you have the superior option of removing someone who's likelier to vote you in the future. You maybe "won"

in spite

of killing someone who TR you, I don't think that alone contributed anything much to your win. My last scumgame I was only able to win by systematically killing whoever scumread me, if I didn't do that I definitely would've lost.

NKs are part of the agenda. You can't discredit the whole idea of NKA as "too much WIFOM", I think WIFOM could be applied to pretty much any argument in the game. Maybe not as sole incriminating evidence, but still useful.

[Lamees]

Volx time was limited in that game. I mean I can give more examples where lynching mutual town reads are much more beneficial. Heck I even did as scum myself and won that way. But I guess it doesn't matter. Because it can be anyone. Too much wifom.

I disagree, I think lynching mutual townreads is really bad scumplay -- simply because you have the superior option of removing someone who's likelier to vote you in the future. You maybe "won"

in spite

of killing someone who TR you, I don't think that alone contributed anything much to your win. My last scumgame I was only able to win by systematically killing whoever scumread me, if I didn't do that I definitely would've lost.

NKs are part of the agenda. You can't discredit the whole idea of NKA as "too much WIFOM", I think WIFOM could be applied to pretty much any argument in the game. Maybe not as sole incriminating evidence, but still useful.

That's too obvious for me. My style is different. Can't be transparent as scum.

[Auro]

Well, blatantly, if someone townread the previous slot holder it has *everything* to do with it.
To explain my thoughts - in a Newbie game (now finished but ongoing at the time, so relax your panties) Yyotta admitted in the PT that they were under a lot of stress, and had their partner point out that lack of posting was insulting to other players.
I hate to have to then dance around the rather silly and I swear constantly changing rules of this site but Yyotta didn't replace out of all their games.
Also, if you look at the Newbie game in question and assess their scum play while feeling overwhelmed you can get the vibe that;

1. They were more relaxed here.
2. They cared about the group and recognized they weren't going to be the best here.

Now, to a certain extent I would like to see some flips in theoretical other places, but I suspect an early replace out here to be more likely from town than scum. I can see an argument made in the reverse to suggest that it was feelings of failure as scum and fleeing from doing so again, and I don't dislike that argument, but suggest the outward showing from the initial posts here do not match up well with that scum game.

So I tend to favor town, and barring something more exciting than "Creature's reads are narf!" I'm not going to scumread that slot, and rather question anyone who does.
Also, that slot, across the various slot holders, has a perfectly decent amount of posting to assess, unlike your more reasonable complaint about the Nova slot.

I checked that PT.
Yes, they admit they were under a lot of stress. However, the posts in the PT gave me the impression that said stress wasn't due to being scum in the game, rather some external factor that caused him to "forget the forum". I think it was just co-incidence that he didn't replace out of all then; plus, got lynched by the time he probably would have in that particular one.
I think you're drawing too much a comparison with that game based on 4 posts and the premise of "being overwhelmed" which I think wasn't due to the game itself, so I think that slot doesn't deserve a townread for it.
And I'm not particularly impressed by Creature's reads either, so... yeah.

[Thor665]

1 scum between Thor and rb.

What evidence/thoughts do you have to support this idea?

By "that way" you mean specifically dictating the NK, yes? How is that relevant?

Because Creature is using it as a case on me - I don't actually think it's a valid casing method and am trying to get him to show enough cards to reveal it's an empty claim.
Why are you asking me to defend Creature's case on me as relevant?

rb I would argue against as he looks eminently lynchable unless someone saw a PR crumb.
Auro I'd be fine with as he wasn't absorbing a lot of lynch energy yesterday.

This doesn't actually answer the question.

@Creature - are you intentionally ignoring me because you're scum or are you just scared I have a good point and don't want to admit you're wrong?

[Auro]

That's too obvious for me. My style is different. Can't be transparent as scum.

Nah, the moment one says "obvious" another says WIFOM, so it's inherently weakened. I believe the utility gained from killing someone who scumreads you far outweighs any loss incurred by someone trying to push you from that angle *shrug*.

Again, the possibility of WIFOM doesn't invalidate NKA entirely .

[Thor665]

I checked that PT.
Yes, they admit they were under a lot of stress. However, the posts in the PT gave me the impression that said stress wasn't due to being scum in the game, rather some external factor that caused him to "forget the forum". I think it was just co-incidence that he didn't replace out of all then; plus, got lynched by the time he probably would have in that particular one.
I think you're drawing too much a comparison with that game based on 4 posts and the premise of "being overwhelmed" which I think wasn't due to the game itself, so I think that slot doesn't deserve a townread for it.
And I'm not particularly impressed by Creature's reads either, so... yeah.

I never said he replaced out from the pressure of being scum.
Why do you think he only replaced out of one game and not all games?

[Creature]

idk, just that Persivul kill feels like something a scumteam with you in would do considering Persivul is an older player.

[Creature]

Also you still give the feels that your posts are just walls and nothing more. Like, staying on rb while leaving others on their own.

[Creature]

It's the classic "too many walls, nothing progressing"

[Auro]

Because Creature is using it as a case on me - I don't actually think it's a valid casing method and am trying to get him to show enough cards to reveal it's an empty claim.
Why are you asking me to defend Creature's case on me as relevant?

I do agree with you that it's not a valid casing method by itself.
However, I don't think Creature was really "casing" you just based on that in the first place.
You were in his PoE pool, and the NK is consistent with the possibility of your being scum, whether or not you dictated the kill or not.
I *think* this would be enough for him to have voted at the time, given his play.

[Creature]

and because rb wagon seems to have scum somewhere.

[Auro]

I never said he replaced out from the pressure of being scum.
Why do you think he only replaced out of one game and not all games?

I don't think there's any direct causality we can establish here -- my answer is "dunno", but I don't think it's indicative either way. YC is a very weird player.