Newbie 1909 | Scheme | Over

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 2.03 pointers

I want to go back a bit and talk some more about pointers. You saw in the box diagram in the last vote count that a linked list is basically a collection of cons cells, of pairs, and the car of each pair points to a piece of data, like the string "Alice" and the cdr of each pair points to the car of the next pair in the list. So what does it mean that these are pointers? How is it different from there just be a chain like [Alice]->[Bob]->[Carol]->[Daniel]->[Edith]? What's the point?

Let's make a list of primitive operators.

(define procedures

(list + - gcd * /)

)

I threw gcd in there too even though it's not a primitive operator because remember that there's no distinction between built-in functions and the ones that we make.

What do you think happens if I type

(

(car procedures)

3 4)

?

Well let's use the substitution rule to figure out what's happening. (car procedures) evaluates to +, right? So now it's just (+ 3 4). That's why we had two sets of parentheses at the start. One to evoke car, and one to evoke whatever car returns. So we get 7.

scheme@(guile-user)> ((cadr procedures) 3 4)
$2 = -1
scheme@(guile-user)> ((caddr procedures) 3 4)
$3 = 1
scheme@(guile-user)> ((cadddr procedures) 3 4)
$4 = 12
scheme@(guile-user)> ((cddddr procedures) 3 4)
ERROR: Wrong type to apply: (#<procedure / (#:optional _ _ . _)>)

Entering a new prompt. Type `,bt' for a backtrace or `,q' to continue.
scheme@(guile-user) [1]> ,q
scheme@(guile-user)> ((car (cddddr procedures)) 3 4)
$5 = 3/4

Okay so what's this error and why did it happen? Why didn't get cddddr get me the 5th element in the list the way caddr got me the 4th element? Remember, car gets the first item, and cdr gets the rest, cadr gets the second and the cddr gets the rest. Let's draw another box diagram.

+---+---+   +---+---+   +---+---+   +---+---+    +---+---+   
|   |  -|-->|   |  -|-->|   |  -|-->|   |   -|-->|   | / |
+_|_+___+   +_|_+___+   +_|_+___+   +_|_+___+    +_|_+___+
  |           |           |           |            |         
 \ /         \ /         \ /         \ /          \ /        
  .           .           .           .            .         
  +           -          gcd          *            /

cddddr doesn't get us / it gets us the pair (cons / '()). This '() is a list terminator, the null list, and it's getting in the way of our decision. That's why we need the car of the cddddr.

But look at this magical thing we have here, we can call a named procedure, +, or whatever, without actually using the name of the function, because + is ~really~ just a pointer to the real procedure. and (car is also returning a pointer to the procedure, so ((car follows that pointer and evaluates that procedure. This is really exciting.

---

Lynching

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

Child

(2): Clemency, u r a person 2

Not Voting

(5): EGL, Amzela, Child, teacher, Emperor flippyNips

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-01-10 08:00:00).

Mod notes:

Keep it fun![/area]

[teacher]

Hahaha I force posted that because I figured there may have been someone waiting for the pagetop

[u r a person 2]

@mod m voting child as seen below. Thanks!

this is where i would have hammered

VOTE: child

teeeeeaaacccchhhher

[EGL]

That still doesn't account for ranking someone else higher than yourself.

It’s one way of crumbing a PR result for the flip, though admittedly a very heavy handed one since it sticks out as you noticed. I’ve modeled various ways to crumb today in 429 but also 411 - “I started the day,” “night events,” etc.

Ps - tracker results have not changed. People just speak about them genetically as red checks or green checks.

Okay I guess that makes sense.

[EGL]

@mod

I had unvoted before the vote count

[Plotinus]

Fixed, both issuse. Sorry! I forgot to paste the new votes in before.

[EGL]

@mod

thank you!

[Emperor flippyNips]

FWIW, with multiple scum left, a “no movement” result would be a null-check at least as I’ve seen it.

What does that stand for?

[teacher]

FWIW, with multiple scum left, a “no movement” result would be a null-check at least as I’ve seen it.

What does that stand for?

for what it’s worth.

[teacher]

That still doesn't account for ranking someone else higher than yourself.

It’s one way of crumbing a PR result for the flip, though admittedly a very heavy handed one since it sticks out as you noticed. I’ve modeled various ways to crumb today in 429 but also 411 - “I started the day,” “night events,” etc.

Ps - tracker results have not changed. People just speak about them genetically as red checks or green checks.

Okay I guess that makes sense.

Just FYI, went back to find a historic example of another player doing it: here

[u r a person 2]

I think there is a lot more info to be gleaned out of the NK as well as the flip. But I want to call upon @Child ..... I can share my thoughts after that.

@URAP2, I'd rather have my NKA out in case I die tonight, and Id rather wait to publish mine at least until Child gets prodded. So I am going to gum up the works a bit today. Sorry (not sorry).

you should write your nka with the assumption that child is town because this is today's lynch if he doesn't come back

3 hours until he can be prodded ish, yeah?

[Emperor flippyNips]

Is child at L-2? Or L-1? Cos I’d like to cast my vote but not drop the hammer

[u r a person 2]

looks like two votes on him, clems and mine

so l-2

[teacher]

I think there is a lot more info to be gleaned out of the NK as well as the flip. But I want to call upon @Child ..... I can share my thoughts after that.

@URAP2, I'd rather have my NKA out in case I die tonight, and Id rather wait to publish mine at least until Child gets prodded. So I am going to gum up the works a bit today. Sorry (not sorry).

you should write your nka with the assumption that child is town because this is today's lynch if he doesn't come back

3 hours until he can be prodded ish, yeah?

yea. And yea I’ll make that assumption and then hammer in the morning if he hasn’t responded to the prod.

[Emperor flippyNips]

VOTE: child

I do still want to hear from him but if he gets prodded & doesn’t respond still im down for the hammer to drop

[EGL]

If it's almost time for child to be prodded, it's almost time for amzela to be prodded too, right?

[u r a person 2]

child will be prodded whenever mod gets back. it's 36 hours im pretty sure

[teacher]

Yea, it is 36 - they are both due, but the mod is European I think so its the middle of the night.

Kindly prod both when you wake up?

.

I will hammer around 1pm New York City time unless they have returned/there is ongoing discussion.

Got to type up the NKA/VCA stuff, Ill post that in a bit.

[EGL]

Hey teacher while you're here, what should we all vote on making night phase shorter? I don't think we used to be able to vote on that back in the day.

[teacher]

Hey teacher while you're here, what should we all vote on making night phase shorter? I don't think we used to be able to vote on that back in the day.

I always vote short night. But to me thats a life scheduling thing versus a game strategy thing.

[EGL]

Thanks

[teacher]

VCA/NKA

These combined had a couple of effects: (1) Strengthened town-reads URAP2 + Amzela, and (2) weakened town-read of EGL. Before writing this up, I want to stress that I still think Child is the last scum, and I think I am somewhat falling victim to the fallacy mentioned right before the hammer yesterday, of doubting accurate townreads because scum is letting the game stagnate. But for purposes of this exercise, I am assuming town!child. Also, the below does not mention Amzela's disappearance since daybreak, which largely negates any benefit mentioned here.

Spoiler: NKA

Loop was somewhat of a surprising kill target, as he was not a universal town-read. The universal townreads were me and EGL. (see, e.g., 205). Both because I am the IC, and because I steered the lynch to Dici, I expected

NOT

to be the NK target, because scum would expect me to be protected. So I kind of expected EGL to die. The fact that he didn’t despite the strength of the townreads (from all who had commented) is somewhat surprising/worth weakening my townread. (Not that much, however, because Dici’s naked vote on Loop had pretty much townspewed Loop anyways – but scum couldn’t know that for sure).

The counter-argument – and, to be frank, in my view the better argument – is that Loop was killed simply to frame town!Flippy. Scum last night knew they needed to make it to a D4 Lylo. If Child is indeed town, framing flippy could line up two lynches on low-ish hanging fruit. An EGL kill would have pointed towards Amzela, at least on the surface, but Clem/me/URAP all had townleans there (plus see the VCA below). In short, a town!amzela mislynch was way more uphill than a town!flippy one. And if Child is scum, Loop’s death at least proffers a plausible saving case Child can make at daybreak to redirect attention (part of why I rushed to say “too obvious for flippy”).

Spoiler: VCA

The spoiler title is misleading, as what follows is more wagon analysis that votecount analysis. The Dici wagons were functionally the same, with the only difference being Amzela substituted for Clem.

EGL was on the wagon both times, but he was the most resistant both times as well – Unvoting in 216 after Clem’s intent, really pushing Amzela hard (223, 247, 278), and seeming to resist the culmination of the second wagon on dici 358 – again pushing Amzela 360 --until three different slots pressured the hammer (366).

URAP was on the wagon both times, but unlike EGL as a vocal and enthusiastic participant -- 249, 361. That’s worth strengthening my townread.

Finally, simply from the timing and flow of the wagons, I think Amzela was the townspewed as a LHF counterwagon to potentally save Dici. Again, I this is why I scumread Child’s evolution to voting Amzela and want to lynch him. But even assuming Child flips green, my gut says Amz was a counterwagon to scum, not a double-trapped partner. Gut on this is however weaker than the URAP logic above.

[u r a person 2]

@Amzela It doesn't really help anyone if you're constantly defending him. It doesn't help him start playing, because he doesn't have to speak for himself. It doesn't help the town, because he's not talking so we can't get a read on him. To be honest, it just looks like a scum buddying up to a townie. And the very fact that you said you're voting him to "clear (your) name" does the opposite. And with two votes on you, you put him back to L-1.

Do you feel that newbie games are also supposed to help newbies learn how to play? Would there have been a lesson for him to help him in future games had Clem hammered?

@teacher oooh you might be really on to something. my emphasis

[u r a person 2]

i think i was p.edited by that post. This might be the first time I've actually read it

but like

does that ever come from town?

has anyone ever seen town defend against a lynch because it would impede on a learning opportunity? srs question

[EGL]

I never said it would impede on a learning opportunity. On the contrary, there would have been and in fact was a perfect learning opportunity for dici.