Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[northsidegal]

VC 1.02

votes

[3] teacher

:

Zeito 36, Persivul 85, scum reading 92

[2] chennisden

:

GrandWazoo 7, teacher 39

[2] TheASC

:

Skellen 16, chennisden 30

[1] Sekaedy

:

TheASC 18

[1] Zeito

:

Sekaedy 41

[0] Not Voting

:

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-03-12 17:37:59)

Mod Notes

: Prodding Zeito

[Zeito]

Sorry for prod - overall my only town read is currently on scum reading, and scum lean on teacher for now. Would like to hear more from Sekaedy.

Slightly suspicious of GrandWazoo also, but I don't think scum would have the audacity to pull this:

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

and then both lynch the same player on day 1. (chennisden) Thus, if one were to flip scum I would likely dim my view of the other being scum. This could be considered WIFOM, but I think using that as a counter-argument here would be 'bad wifom'. I have to commit to some reads one way or another. Feel free to ask me to expand on why I think this is bad wifom, but I don't want to ramble too much about it for no reason.

As for chennisden, I believe this could be a possibility for scum, trying to push TheASC and waiting but only being confident after teacher's vote, but I'm not really sure if this is inherently scummy or just not completely confident / feeling it is the best lynch.

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

[Skellen]

Because when they get back and see a wagon on them, they’ll freak out and defend as soon as possible, which will make scumtelling way easier. I disagree with your view here, the reason you vote is to apply pressure and you don’t have reads on inactive / lurking people, obviously, so why would I vote for someone that is talking considering they will be most likely pushed because of their activity, while lurkers slip under the radar. You don’t have to keep a tunnel vision and only suspect the active player pool, keep lurkers in check.

While teacher already called me out why my assumption regarding Sekaedy was wrong, I am not ok with leaving it at that.

I disagree that pressuring inactives/lurkers with voting is better than pressuring active players. Your push on Sekaedy is a good example for this. This guy hasn't been around for two days, that's hitting a rock with a stick. He doesn't care and he won't care as he is most likely right now on the highway to getting replaced. Thus it would be going nowhere and just be a waste of time with pressuring him. Pushing inactives in general isn't a good approach here, as they get replaced anyway (which is why I never bothered with your predecessors as example). It's imo far more beneficial to use the time we have to pressure active players first to form some first impressions as we don't have to wait until they show up and if possible eventually forming a townblock with them in best case after figuring them out. From there it becomes PoE where the lurkers see the short end of the stick if they don't contribute. I don't see why it should have higher priority to go after inactives/lurkers when the day is long enough to engage with people who are actually posting regularly? Especially in a slow paced game like this.

I agree that lurkers shouldn't be allowed to slip under the radar, but in my games here I have seen enough versions of town!lurkers that it matters to me how they lurk to make them worth for a push as I implied in #24. I am thinking here particularly of lurkers that always show up when they get mentioned or act pretty reactionary/defensive with showing no initiative to figure the game out or dodging the replacement with writing one meaningless post. But Sekaedy doesn't even lurk, he is just inactive.

[Skellen]

People I will vote: teacher, GrandWazoo

Going by your answers for teacher's questions I can see where you are coming from regarding GW as I had a similar thought.

But why teacher?

[Skellen]

What's the deal with the teacher wagon anyway? o.o

So far I can only follow SR's thoughts on this, although I don't really agree with them. Why would teacher defend someone inactive and what does he gain by buddying an inactive player? I agree however that just activity isn't a good defence.

@Zeito:
Can you elaborate on your actual case against teacher? Last I read about it from you it was about the "Why not make a joke?" thing.

[Skellen]

As for chennisden, I believe this could be a possibility for scum, trying to push TheASC and waiting but only being confident after teacher's vote, but I'm not really sure if this is inherently scummy or just not completely confident / feeling it is the best lynch.

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

Above: teacher didn't voted for ASC, it was Persivul after whom chennis voted.

I have mixed feelings about ASC. I have no problems to admit that the case against him is weak and was originally more in order to get the game going with an early push as it was awfully slow. I am not sure about his acting since he was voted up to L-2 he was pretty reactionary. No initiative. I had to pull it out of his nose to question the people who are voting him. I would think you would be interested why people are voting you and confront them? Not sure what to make out of it if he just got that reluctant after the first push or he simply didn't bothered. I will rethink the whole thing tomorrow though as I can see I am the only one with chennis who is at this point on this wagon and I am not that stubborn.

@SR:
While I am at it and you townread ASC. Can you explain the read? My laid down problems are above and in #56.

[chennisden]

last game scumreading rolled scum, he does NOT play like this as scum

[GrandWazoo]

I don’t think you got my point. In my 81 I was explaining how keeping lurkers in check doesn’t come off as scum because you need to get information from them as well ( I was defending ASC in that post) and in my 96 I was saying that him saying” I am active, I don’t get the push on me” isn’t a solid defence. Just because you’re active, it doesn’t necessarily make you town. I said I’d be on Seka, but because teacher made that post it immediately raised my awareness and I saw how suspicious it was, so I went for a vote on him. A push on Seka wouldn’t give me information at the moment, but that read on teacher’s part is really suspicious, it seemed like he was trying to “buddy” someone, although the person he was defending clearly didn’t do any of the things teacher mentioned. Getting lurkers to speak up needs town coordination, which won’t be a thing here, so I went for the more active AND suspicious player. I can get back to Seka at anytime I feel like, but for now, I already have the information on teacher, so why wouldn’t I push?

I would draw a distinction between lurking/inactive players and active lurkers, who post without contributing anything of value. So yes, "I'm active so why are you pushing me?" isn't a great defense, but at this point in the game I wouldn't call it a scumtell either. Given your 78, and your 81 response to Skellen, I find your jump from Sekaedy to teacher a bit odd (I don't see the buddying that you do). By your reasoning wouldn't it make more sense to keep pushing on Sekaedy so he (or his replacement) will "freak out" and start spilling tells?

[GrandWazoo]

Slightly suspicious of GrandWazoo also, but I don't think scum would have the audacity to pull this:

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

and then both lynch the same player on day 1. (chennisden)

FTR my vote on chennisden was RVS. It remains because I don't care for his halfhearted push on ASC, or for that wagon in general.

[scum reading]

I don’t think you got my point. In my 81 I was explaining how keeping lurkers in check doesn’t come off as scum because you need to get information from them as well ( I was defending ASC in that post) and in my 96 I was saying that him saying” I am active, I don’t get the push on me” isn’t a solid defence. Just because you’re active, it doesn’t necessarily make you town. I said I’d be on Seka, but because teacher made that post it immediately raised my awareness and I saw how suspicious it was, so I went for a vote on him. A push on Seka wouldn’t give me information at the moment, but that read on teacher’s part is really suspicious, it seemed like he was trying to “buddy” someone, although the person he was defending clearly didn’t do any of the things teacher mentioned. Getting lurkers to speak up needs town coordination, which won’t be a thing here, so I went for the more active AND suspicious player. I can get back to Seka at anytime I feel like, but for now, I already have the information on teacher, so why wouldn’t I push?

I would draw a distinction between lurking/inactive players and active lurkers, who post without contributing anything of value. So yes, "I'm active so why are you pushing me?" isn't a great defense, but at this point in the game I wouldn't call it a scumtell either. Given your 78, and your 81 response to Skellen, I find your jump from Sekaedy to teacher a bit odd (I don't see the buddying that you do). By your reasoning wouldn't it make more sense to keep pushing on Sekaedy so he (or his replacement) will "freak out" and start spilling tells?

You don’t get pressure with one vote, when there’s a wagon with 3 votes and one with two.

[scum reading]

As for chennisden, I believe this could be a possibility for scum, trying to push TheASC and waiting but only being confident after teacher's vote, but I'm not really sure if this is inherently scummy or just not completely confident / feeling it is the best lynch.

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

Above: teacher didn't voted for ASC, it was Persivul after whom chennis voted.

I have mixed feelings about ASC. I have no problems to admit that the case against him is weak and was originally more in order to get the game going with an early push as it was awfully slow. I am not sure about his acting since he was voted up to L-2 he was pretty reactionary. No initiative. I had to pull it out of his nose to question the people who are voting him. I would think you would be interested why people are voting you and confront them? Not sure what to make out of it if he just got that reluctant after the first push or he simply didn't bothered. I will rethink the whole thing tomorrow though as I can see I am the only one with chennis who is at this point on this wagon and I am not that stubborn.

@SR:
While I am at it and you townread ASC. Can you explain the read? My laid down problems are above and in #56.

At the moment, I don’t believe your case is enough for me to put my vote on ASC and his posts look town imo, at this stage it’s mostly based on guts. I think his rvs post might look scummy, but I don’t think you should make a case against that, I agree with his mentality and I don’t see that rvs coming from scum, because they want to lynch active townies, not lurkers who most likely won’t get any more than 2 votes on them until like Day3 or so.I believe in the innocent until proven guilty, and for now, your case didn’t change my perception on ASC’s alignment because it was an rvs vote you made a case upon.

[scum reading]

You could argue whether or not it was strategically placed on a non-active players to not look sus when there’s a leading wagon on their scum partner and they don’t want to bus, but the only wagon is on chennisden and him.

[teacher]

I took sekaedys wording as a positive sign of paying attention to and mocking zeitos wording in their own vote, fwiw. (And yes I jumped in to answer but I wanted to redirect the attention.)

How’d you even reach this conclusion? There are 4 posts on sekadye and in neither of them is there an indication that points towards what you are saying. He legit answered your post and then voted Zeito, how does that result in paying attention to and mocking zeito’s wording in their own vote? ... snip...

Look at the timing and the wording:

sharing reads and

positioning myself as I feel necessary

And also I feel it is

necessary to position

my vote on VOTE: Zeito.

As I stated, I kinda liked Sekaedy's imitation of Zeito's wording, which did seem off to me as well. The fact that it mirrored it so soon after made me feel Sekaedy was reading and paying attention. Its not a full townread, but the motives for that wording are +town.

[teacher]

@teacher:
What makes chennis for you easy

caught scum

? The timing of his vote?

Also were you satisfied with ASC's answer to your #20? Just wondered that you didn't persuade him further as I thought he gave a pretty generic response, which seemed kind of unusual for you to let him off the hook that fast.

1. Yes, the timing of his vote put it over the edge for me. But more so that I see nothing town-advancing in his ISO. His answer to question 2 suggests an aggressiveness that is lacking. His answer to number 4 is one word and not that accurate or helpful. But more broadly, it is the lack of any questions or desire to solve -- he joined a momentum wagon without contributing.

2. TheASC was, at the the time of my return (39/page 2), looking decently towny. In contrast to Chennis, he gave fairly detailed and reflective answers to the questions, that are consistent with his play so far. While 18 may seem questionable, it came after a few more RVSes and my own advice to read the mod advice, which includes RVS. I think newb!scum would be afraid of being as lampshadey as to acknowledge that they were taking an action to fit in - the vote was strange, but not in a scum way to me. I also liked their response to my "make a joke" question, showing attention to how others had RVSed. Again, there is also a desire for understanding in 50 - seeing how the game is played here, and making sure he understands what a player means in order to be able to analyze it. Bottom line, he is not out of null yet but has got a town tinge.

[teacher]

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

Why, for that NSS post?

Yes, for that one. He derailed a momentum wagon with accurate thoughts. True, the thoughts may have been NSS/simple, but what is the scum motivation for sharing it at that time? I cant really come up with one -- it does not feel like a whiteknight/pocket, because it is too soft for that. Why dont you think it was towny if you agree with it?

[teacher]

ASC, Persi, Zeito these are my town reads at the moment

Im with you on ASC. But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE, plus 83 quoted above, are giving me a scum tingle. He seems to agree with the same Wazoo post I agreed with -- calling it NSS -- but then questions the town read based on it? Who wants to prevent town from recognizing town......

[teacher]

him saying” I am active, I don’t get the push on me” isn’t a solid defence. Just because you’re active, it doesn’t necessarily make you town. I said I’d be on Seka, but because teacher made that post it immediately raised my awareness and I saw how suspicious it was, so I went for a vote on him. A push on Seka wouldn’t give me information at the moment, but that read on teacher’s part is really suspicious, it seemed like he was trying to “buddy” someone, although the person he was defending clearly didn’t do any of the things teacher mentioned.

1. You are absolutely right that scum can be active, and that I try to play this same way as scum too (Normal 2016 is the prime example). But my point and concern was more tied to the general gamestate in this room rather than just my own activity levels. We are only on page 5 half-way through the day. With so many lurkers/non-players, targeting one of the few active participants makes it easier for scum to lurkcoast all the way through.

2. That said, I think you are town motivated. Both in the quote above and in 90, you disagreed with my take on Sekaedy, saying they "didn't do any of the things" I mentioned. I stand by my views, as explained in 112. I think this is a legit disconnect.

[teacher]

Finally, a general comment on the gamestate -- it is WAY too stagnant in here. Not only does it make it harder to find scum, it also makes the game less desireable even for those that want to play. All players should try to step up a little more, simply for the entertainment value.

Reads atm:
Teacher
Scum reading
Skellen
Grand Wazoo
_______________
Sekaedy
Zeito
The ASC
______________
Persivul
Chennis

[teacher]

^flip Zeito and ASC, but both still in the null/sort range.

[scum reading]

ASC, Persi, Zeito these are my town reads at the moment

Im with you on ASC. But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE, plus 83 quoted above, are giving me a scum tingle. He seems to agree with the same Wazoo post I agreed with -- calling it NSS -- but then questions the town read based on it? Who wants to prevent town from recognizing town......

Idk what NSS is, can you explain? I’ll explain why I think Persivul’s town afterwards

[teacher]

ASC, Persi, Zeito these are my town reads at the moment

Im with you on ASC. But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE, plus 83 quoted above, are giving me a scum tingle. He seems to agree with the same Wazoo post I agreed with -- calling it NSS -- but then questions the town read based on it? Who wants to prevent town from recognizing town......

Idk what NSS is, can you explain? I’ll explain why I think Persivul’s town afterwards

No

surprise

Sherlock, at least by my google of it.

[teacher]

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

I can get the ASC question, but why ask Skellen? She was on a wagon, not by herself. Why not ask the other person on the wagon as well? or ask Sekaedy as the other person on a vanity?

[Persivul]

VOTE: Sekaedy

[Persivul]

But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE,

I had time when I signed up, but it took longer for me to get in than I expected, and now I'm overgamed.

Regarding you:
20 - This felt forced, hated the make a joke bit
39 - Read with no explanation and no (so I thought) follow-up
45 - Why give a town read for a NSS observation? Also don't like the

in-game town read

comment, indicates you have other town reads you haven't expressed, and it's way too early to have town reads at all.

When I went to make that case, I found:
62 - Explained the bit about ASC

So, I'm not as concerned about you as I was - but still concerned.

[Persivul]

Idk what NSS is, can you explain? I’ll explain why I think Persivul’s town afterwards

No

surprise

Sherlock, at least by my google of it.[/quote]
No Shit Sherlock. You misunderstand my point. I'm saying that Wazoo's post was so

No Shit Sherlock

that you shouldn't be awarding town points for it. At that stage of the game his post required no insight at all.