Mini 2065 - Access Point [Endgame]

[RuiRui]

I'm not a day vig

[RuiRui]

If the first vig hits town the second one should holster their shot IMO

[RuiRui]

And yes I'm townreading Radiant Cowbells, interested in what RCEnigma has to say, and null on DDL (not scumreading them being against the claiming)

[RuiRui]

What if scum shoot who we access point every night?

[RuiRui]

They can still be nightkilled

[RuiRui]

nevermind, I'm wrong

[RuiRui]

My support for your plan is reliant on you not pushing for yourself to be in the final 3

[RuiRui]

No offense but I'd prefer if Golden Paradox directed GuiltyLion to shoot at somebody

[RuiRui]

VOTE: northsidegal

I'm happy with this

[RuiRui]

Guys I have a god NSG read rate and I am 100% sure she is scum

LYNCH HER WITH FIRE

VOTE: northsidegal

I'm happy with this

You guys realize votes are to access point, not lynch?
RC are you joking or are you sure she's scum?

Yes I know, I'm saying I'd be comfortable with NSG being put up for access point

I'm null against insomnia. He calls rc and me town, but votes nsg instead. But hes pretty clueless with 210 looks town

Same here, I think they're more likely to be town

[RuiRui]

I think what town needs to be doing right now is getting the vig opinions on NSG/Insomnia and likely pushing one of them through to access point, I think talking about other reads hurts town by giving scum a guideline on who to kill

[RuiRui]

I have other townreads I'd like to discuss tomorrow

[RuiRui]

I feel good enough about RC that I don't mind if they get access pointed anymore

[RuiRui]

Setting aside the "getting lynched by nsg" thing (which I don't see right now..)

Still townreading NSG and waiting for them to give reads is fine

Do you guys think we should use the suicidal day vigs to reveal someone on day 2 or on day 3? (assuming mafia don't kill there) I think due to the nature of the setup it should be used on someone whos flip would give insight into other relevant players alignments (people who are likely to get into an access point)

Rosterfoster looks like scum to me but our goal isn't really to kill scum... we'll all die after the access point anyway, and I'm not sure him flipping town/scum will help us with that

[RuiRui]

So shoot me and vote roster to go on the mission after I flip.

I townread this but I don't agree with it

You might be an interesting shot though, if there isn't support for you being in the AP. NSG's reads are important too, I'll unvote for now

UNVOTE: NorthSideGal

[RuiRui]

I'm kind of impatient with not talking about reads even though I said not to do it earlier

[RuiRui]

VOTE: NSG
I'm feeling good about this vote. NSG looks town to me. I'm strongly considering killing Insomnia - his posts look a lot like fluff to me.

Good call, at least let me leave some reads? Quite the mishap to shoot a town that has no reads yet. No rush.

I don't mean to sound rude when I say this, but I don't think your reads are all too important
I think what's more important is how our perceptions on other players who are likely to go into the access point would be altered

I'm feeling that you're town and I'm starting to think this is not such a good idea though... mainly, what information do we gain from you flipping town that is relevant for our current line of thinking? I wouldn't be sold on Roster being town if you flipped town and so his alignment "doesn't matter" since he's not really contributing to getting players access pointed either, do you get me? And I don't think I'll ever feel good enough about him that I'd want him Ap'd over someone who I feel I can read better

[RuiRui]

I also have some other thoughts on how scum may be playing around the suicidal vigs that I'm not sure I want to share (though I kind of do)

I'll talk about it after NSG gives reads and people discuss the shot a little bit

[RuiRui]

I think that trying to direct where the vigs shoot when you're not a vig is the worst thing you can do, but I understand your frustration. I'm just a little unsure of you now, still leaning town but...

Try to think of this on the other side: Let's think of both RC and NSG as town for now; I think scum are very hesitant to push against a town NSG being put into access point against these strong players, and are instead looking to setup to be in the access point days 2 and 3. Right now, in this scenario where they're both town, and the gamestate is largely being controlled by the town, not giving scum much room to work with, scum have to try to gain a grip on the gamestate, something that lets them influence opinions, and they will be looking towards the shot.

Interestingly, I think a setup like this favors scum bussing, trying to get your partner shot to make yourself look better... or to make other people look worse. A misfire on town isn't necessarily what scum would want in this gamestate, as they want to try to influence the gamestate as much as possible to try to shake town up. Of course, this is assuming a lot of people are town, like RC, NSG, and other people they're talking about.

As for shooting RC, if he's alive on day 2 and thinks that him dying and flipping town provides a higher chance for town to win than him going into the AP himself, then that is something to consider. I don't think I'm looking at a situation where both you and RC are scum and you're looking for credit. I do think, ultimately, the vigs should be wary about listening to outside advice on who to shoot, I'd like for them to give their thoughts on what the best kind of shot is (like, what criteria would be used to determine the shot) and it's ok to ask for opinions, etc.

What I'm most concerned with, in regards to your motivations here, is that you're both pushing for RC to die and sort of shading his reads, a double whammy where even if he flips town you won't trust his read on NSG. Why, then, should we be shooting him? That's what makes me nervous, because it looks like a scum perspective to the gamestate

[RuiRui]

I'm of the opinion that the vigilantes should hold off on shooting until at least day 2, I find it unlikely that the mafia will pick off a vigilante in the current game state because while they're confirmed town, they can't enter the access point (though I'd like if Goldenparadox and GuiltyLion could converse a little before night, just in case, maybe not about reads but about a more general "what kind of a shot should we take on day 2")

[RuiRui]

The big point here is: Vigging RC is useless if you're not willing to respect his read on NSG after the fact should he flip town

[RuiRui]

What I meant when I said this setup favors scum bussing is that scum can try to direct the shot onto their own partner so they look better and are put into the access point

Scum aren't afraid of vig shots (they shouldn't be) - Scums goal is probably to get 1 scum in out of 3 and have them look reasonable townie, if the scum that dies isn't someone that would have been put into the access point then it doesn't matter if they die. Of course, scum don't want their townie looking scum to die, but their scummy looking scum isn't very helpful on their own merits in this setup. We don't have to go out of our way to get rid of people who we're hesitant to believe are town, as we must trim the playerlist down much further, to 3 people.

To an extent, yes, I see merit in shooting RC on day 2 and having his confident townread sent into the mission - but it looked like you were undermining his read on NSG, as if to set up for later, which was what was worrying me

[RuiRui]

I also can’t understand you saying “We should trust vigs reads and they shouldn’t be redirected”. Why are their reads important and a confirmed townie flip (if we go back to our discussion on shooting me) reads aren’t? Your logic is faulty here. You can’t pick persons and choose to disregard their reads just because they don’t have an ability in the day time.

I meant it more in the sense that the vigs need to choose someone to kill

The reasoning for killing RC would be to confirm his reads as coming from town, no? I didn't really get the same impression from you, that you would or could convince people to follow your reads. The vigs reads don't matter so much as how they decide to use the vig matters.

I may have been wrong, if you were shot your reads would matter, but again, I just don't trust Roster, and I'm not sure If I can trust you to correctly read Roster to such an extent that I'd make big game decisions over it - this isn't meant to be rude, this is just my thought process, I think you're likely to be town, you shouldn't be getting paranoid about me, I think there's just a miscommunication between what we're meaning to say

[RuiRui]

You sending NSG just because she doesn’t play enough games lately is wrong to us, the other players. It’s a shitty reason to risk this game for that. I don’t believe you’d send her on a mission just for that.

When I saw this I read it as if you were trying to undermine RC's read on NSG, even if he were to flip town

This doesn't mean that I thought you were scum for it

[RuiRui]

I'm strongly considering killing Insomnia - his posts look a lot like fluff to me.

Does my theory on what we should do with the shots make sense? i.e. not shooting necessarily scummy players, but information shots?

[RuiRui]

I think you're getting upset with me and not thinking this through logically, I don't really have a reason to make you look like scum if you're a shot candidate vs an AP candidate - I also think you're overestimating how much other players are willing to invest in your reads should you be shot - this isn't a slight at you, I'm just saying you haven't exuded a large, confident persona, and your choice read (roster) is a read that people are likely going to want to think twice on

I haven't been calling you scum at all, I noted that I actually think you're town a few times

[RuiRui]

As I mentioned, here are my thoughts:

To an extent, yes, I see merit in shooting RC on day 2 and having his confident townread sent into the mission - but it looked like you were undermining his read on NSG, as if to set up for later, which was what was worrying me

I'm not actually against it if it turns out to be the best play we can make, I was pointing out that if we don't trust his reads afterwards then it's not a good idea (I may have misunderstood what you were saying about his read on NSG?)

If we shoot RC on day 2, trust NSG to be town if he says so, and then follow through with his 2nd candidate, that sounds like a good town plan - shooting you, to me, does not seem like a good town plan, because I do not think we will gain as much information

[RuiRui]

I think you're more likely town than not and don't think you're a good shot - While if you were scum, you'd be a good shot due to your recent content, I don't think we gain a lot from you dying

You're somebody that I would feel comfortable voting into AP on day 2 at this point, with my sole reservations being: I'm not sure how nicely you play in a final 3 situation with nsg, as in, I think you 2 may be prone to scumread each other incorrectly - Don't misunderstand me, I think you should be access pointed day 2 anyway, I just think we should talk about it first.

I don't think that you and roster are both scum together, I think your respective plays would be weird in this situation, and so I'm not so worried about Roster's alignment, even if he's mafia and saying to put you in - that can be, and probably would be, a distraction

Even if you scumread me now, it won't matter in a final 3 scenario, where I flip town. And from your perspective, you have to consider that if I am mafia, I think we've interacted to the point that other people would be unlikely to see the 2 of us paired together (this is just for your pov). Let me tell you, I actually feel pretty good about NSG being town right now, If me/RC are both town, you won't try to be a hero, will you?

[RuiRui]

I believed Guiltylion's claim, I just felt that Golden Paradox was better suited to choosing who the pair vigs

[RuiRui]

Alright so here is what I think for today:

I believe that all of Rc slot (Alisae), Labrat slot (Ankamius) and Insomnia are town - Of those, aside from me, I think the most likely to make it into an AP today or tomorrow is Ankamius. I do think that Insomnia would be lynched in a final 3 scenario, and would also suspect NSG who I trust

There was talk about RCE going to the Ap - I don't agree with this, I'm null reading them and would feel nervous about them being sent

I didn't have a read on Locke coming into today, looking over him I think he's towny, with reasonable doubt

It makes me nervous that all the scum would be in the lurkers though - DT, BRVR, Rooster

[RuiRui]

post 887 by labrat and the subsequent frustration is something they wouldn't be able to replicate as scum, I suspect

[RuiRui]

OK Insomnia - Do you think labrat/Ankamius is town? Because I'd be happy to vote for them into the AP today

[RuiRui]

I think that even if we shoot DRVR, we don't really get anything out of it? Town or scum

[RuiRui]

@RuiRui - can you elaborate on your reads.

Sure - I think my most important read today is that Ankamius is in a town slot because:

post 887 by labrat and the subsequent frustration is something they wouldn't be able to replicate as scum, I suspect

Which is something I feel pretty confident about, I think post 887 especially is something that comes almost exclusively from town. Note that I do think Insomnia is town, but even if he isn't, this doesn't strike me as 2 mafia.

Note post 758 where she wasn't townreading insomnia and the progression from there - there is a big jump in her read from post 784 to her next post at 887

And I both trust the read they have on Insomnia and believe it myself as well: On the surface it looks like they're trying to tear town apart, and they're a bit crass with their reasonings and quick to jump to assumptions, I don't think that makes them scum though, I think there's a certain tone that's hard to replicate as scum that comes across when you're town

RCEnigma: looking at his posts on the last few pages here I feel better about them actually, the main thing is they haven't really stuck in my mind and I don't have confidence in a read there

Your slot: RadiantCowbells had that same tone that I think is difficult for scum to replicate. As I strongly townread NSG myself, their progression on NSG -> Me (with DDL being up there, but him having died) looks to be town motivated

[RuiRui]

I said I slightly townread Locke but i don't have a strong read there - thinking about it again I feel better about RCE than Locke

[RuiRui]

RCEnigma: looking at his posts on the last few pages here I feel better about them actually, the main thing is they haven't really stuck in my mind and I don't have confidence in a read there

okay can you start over you might as well have said RCE is town because

And then leave it at that.

Like, what about them gives you good feelings? What are you thinking?

Because this doesn’t really give me that much to work with :/

Honestly I don't really remember much they've done - their recent posting looks good to me

[RuiRui]

I am confident enough in my read in Ankamius slot that I'd be willing to set them up as the AP today

VOTE: Ankamius

[RuiRui]

I do want to get AP'd - I'm confident on my read on Ankamius so I'm fine with them being AP'd too

[RuiRui]

Are these reads based on Ankamius or labrats replace out? Is this a meta thing I'm missing out on? I've never played with labrat before.

The replacing factors into it but it's NOT the main reason

I've discussed my read there in my posts earlier & I agree with Alisae re: labrat's posts - Ankamius themself hasn't factored into my read, personally

[RuiRui]

Insomnia, what is a short list of players you would feel comfortable sending into an AP tomorrow if Ankamius makes it through today?

[RuiRui]

the game doesn't feel solved atm all of a sudden and idk why

UNVOTE: ruirui

Just vote for yourself then - I still believe that you + NSG are town

[RuiRui]

I still believe that you + NSG are town

Which should be good enough to win town the game, yeah?

I'm fairly confident in this

[RuiRui]

I'm not voting ank. I wasn't townreading labrat before that, and I don't like insomnia's pivot As for Ank themselves, I don't see anything indicating eaither way. I like Alisae, and am fine APing rui.

Did you see when Alisae and I were talking about our reads there?

[RuiRui]

If I die tonight we send in Ankamius?

Golden Paradox can you take a look at what Alisae + I were talking about for Labrat, or why you don't see the slot as town

[RuiRui]

I'd prefer to get Ankamius today as I feel they're the most likely to get talked out of going into the ap day 3

Which means I need to talk to TGP

[RuiRui]

I'd be comfortable with RCE in the AP too

Alisae seems town to me

Ankamius is my preferred AP today

would be fine with insomnia in AP

Anyone else aside from me I don't want in the AP

[RuiRui]

I just want Grand Paradox to come back and take a looksie at labrat/Ank again, since that's the only reason we couldn't push that in

[RuiRui]

NSG/Alisae/Rui (fear of insta loss here from Alisae-Rui powerscum team)

Just fyi I had the opportunity to hammer Alisae earlier but you said you were going to post thoughts so I held off

[RuiRui]

I townread labrat independent of the replace out at the end - ank was saying she doesn't want to be ap'd just because of the replace out

I don't think this is a lose, I'm townreading NSG + Ank and I believe they can make the right call if a lylo situation occurs, also there are many people I am find with sending so I think we can win without the lylo

[RuiRui]

IF RCEnigma is scum then they embarked on a mission to tunnel me into the AP just to make me look bad after they flip

But they aren't setting themselves to be in the AP 3rd and I don't see any other scum getting into the AP

And if there's no scum in the final 3 then town wins

[RuiRui]

If I get nked send Alisae

RuiRui shoots you
RuiRui points to this post to discredit me

If that goes to F3 she can win that fairly easily.

What do you mean? For us to both be in final 3 we'd have to be AP'd today and tomorrow, if you get sent d2 then why does insomnia dying the next day mean anything? Plus I'd push for Ank. If I get sent d2 then I can't be shooting anyone - I noticed in the rules that the mafia can only talk to each other during the night.

[RuiRui]

I kind of feel like bvrv is pushing me into the ap with the expectation that they'll be shot today

which makes me kind of side-eye you then asking for that to be shot :/

[RuiRui]

Alisae relax

I'm town, I'm not going to nitpick about you if we're alive on day 3, I trust your slot to be town

[RuiRui]

Does anybody here think that RCEnigma can be scum if I'm town?

[RuiRui]

I'm ok with Alisae in the AP too

[RuiRui]

I think it's important to understand that without the ability to talk during the day, it can be hard for mafia to have a coordinated plan of attack - that's a good explanation for the current gamestate

[RuiRui]

I still think GuyInFreezeer is town - I think Momo was killed because they couldn't kill both me and GuyinFreezer

[RuiRui]

And it's also a way to influence the narrative of the game and try to change the day 3 nominate to who they want

[RuiRui]

What are the chances Rui was instructed on what posts to make day one so she gets town read

I do feel like a lot of my posting on day 1 was in reference to things other people were saying, so I'm not sure how you think this can be possible

I'm all for GuyInFreezer being voted in because as I said I trust that that slot is town

VOTE: GuyinFreezer

I have you as probably town insomnia but I think killing momo is something you'd have motive for as scum, and you're making me nervous

[RuiRui]

I townread labrat independent of the replace out at the end - ank was saying she doesn't want to be ap'd just because of the replace out

I don't think this is a lose, I'm townreading NSG + Ank and I believe they can make the right call if a lylo situation occurs, also there are many people I am find with sending so I think we can win without the lylo

Who are those people and where does your confidence come from?

The list was Ank, Gif, You, RCEnigma, and me

[RuiRui]

As a reminder, don't shoot trekkie because that flip doesn't help us. They do appear to have given up as scum though

[RuiRui]

I am concerned with this lack of activity

[RuiRui]

I think Creature is for sure mafia along with Trekkie

Insomnia is making me really nervous here, I'm not okay with sending them after all

[RuiRui]

It's definitely not better to aim for scum, we have no reason to shoot scum

Cephrir, it's ok to shoot at me if you can guarantee that guyinfreezer gets in, I'm nervous about Insomnia because of the way he's being pushed in today. I'd be most comfortable if Guiltylion took the shot because I feel you are less likely to let insomnia make it into the AP

[RuiRui]

Um... it's not plurality votes, not getting a majority means we move on to the next night phase and mafia get another kill

[RuiRui]

I'll vote for either of GuyInFreezer or myself to go through - Still don't think GiF is scum, but wondering what scum are doing in this gamestate

[RuiRui]

I'm here too

[RuiRui]

Sorry, I'm not going to be here for much longer though, and probably not at deadline

VOTE: RuiRui

If the vigs still have reservations about this you guys should nolynch rather than forcing a shot today. Worst case scenario for town is that you shoot and then we run out of time and the mafia get to kill someone

[RuiRui]

Oops, I really didn't expect a lot of the stuff Alisae had posted near the end to have come from scum, that was my worst read