Open 755: Two-Fold C9++ (GAME OVER)

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel I think you're town I just disagree with you strongly.

I don't skitter would have played like she did if she were persy's partner. I just don't. It doesn't make sense to me from like a personal agenda from her pov, and it doesn't make sense to me based on how she interacted with our slot. I don't think it's an objective thing, I wouldn't know how to convince you of it.

The other thing is that would invalidate my gamestate read that lead me to townread persy. And I don't like to think of my correct reads as mere coincidence. Sky/Sho/Skitter, were at least for some period of time all townreading each other and scumreading Persivul. I believe there were others also they just didn't commit to votes. I thought for sure at least 1 scum among them had completely manipulated the townies among them. I flip flopped about who that may be, mainly due to influences from other players' reads but with the flips being what they are I'd like to think I was right.

And if skitter did all that to distance from a partner, I think it's completely underestimating her skill to think that she would scumread him and turn votes towards him, then when the hydra head that scumreads her pushes back against the persivul wagon she starts to backtrack until straight up townreading persivul after what? An emotional 1v1 between them over meta? It's far too obvious but it assumes a whole lot of preparation for the gambit at the same time, and I see that as a contradiction.

Maybe I'm wrong, though I don't think so. Maybe persy is mafia instead of wolf and I'm wasting my breath for no reason because who cares what scum team we lynch, but I really don't think he's a wolf.

Was baezu the guy who townread dunn based on his wagon slowing down? Because that's like so upside down.

I've never seen this much resistance / hesistancy towards a lynch of a slot nobody cares about not even the slot's owner.

-BuJ

Why are you completely ignoring that skitter/persivul D1 arguments are a *very expected* set of interactions for a scumteam with persivul on it based on recent experience? It’s effective distancing, yes. But it is not unfamiliar distancing for Persivul, and he didn’t know I’d rep in and call him out on it.
If you want me to believe this is never how skitter would play here, I’ll need solid reasons. Not a paragraph of “I just really really feeeeeeeel like this isn’t how skitter would play here”

Are you the other wolf? because your pushback here makes no sense. My case is strong and you’re ignoring it in favor of shouting me down.

PEDIT: BUT ASSOCIATIONS SHOW THAT HES SCUM HERE

[Irrelephant11]

I feel everyone is to;dr’ing everything I post

Why is everyone ignoring the part of my case where I point out this is familiar ground for scum!persivul with a scumpartner. And then Buj is saying “they don’t look like partners” and “give skitter credit at being good at distancing” in the same breath. Like??

[Fuscosco]

BuJ is saying that its not worth good-scums time to go through the charade

[Fuscosco]

And that it was more likely an attempt to set up a future lynch

[Fuscosco]

I kind of agree? But I dont think its a solid TR for them either, not least of which because its a weak association and because multiballs

[Fuscosco]

Why is everyone ignoring the part of my case

I dont think anyone is ignoring your or tr:dl you at all. I think that its not our lynch today. Do you want persy over dunn/dave/fusco/bae/whoever?

[Irrelephant11]

Spoiler: BuJ posts about Persivul being a mislynch

If persivul ever dies and flips town I will tunnel JM like I've never tunnelled anybody in my life. Townslip be damned in that case.

100% sure persivul is being set-up for a mislynch at some point during the game.

There is a very devious, deliberate, narrative-shaping approach being followed here. A systematic method of townreading those that agree, shading or scumreading those that don't, alienating outsiders, and misrepresenting persivul.

Can't read the player? Read the damn game. Spidey senses are tingling like crazy.

Granted I can't say for a fact that JM is the scum among those creating this atmosphere, but that's who's doing the things I mentioned most obviously.

-BuJ

If persivul ever dies and flips town I will tunnel JM like I've never tunnelled anybody in my life. Townslip be damned in that case.

100% sure persivul is being set-up for a mislynch at some point during the game.

There is a very devious, deliberate, narrative-shaping approach being followed here. A systematic method of townreading those that agree, shading or scumreading those that don't, alienating outsiders, and misrepresenting persivul.

Can't read the player? Read the damn game. Spidey senses are tingling like crazy.

Granted I can't say for a fact that JM is the scum among those creating this atmosphere, but that's who's doing the things I mentioned most obviously.

-BuJ

this just feels ???? weird and wrong

Then you might be one of the townies that got manipulated not one of the drivers of the movement.

It remains to be seen.

I really thought my game state analysis was pretty obvious, the push around persivul was not subtle at all, but I guess too many people are reacting with ???? So I'll basically have to show you all a bunch of quotes sometime.

-BuJ

Here's a few things to think about skitter.

Your early townread on me was weird. Didn't do enough to earn it. And then your retraction of it was equally so, seemed like you didn't want to be townread anymore.

Then you seem to be so interested in knowing what we think of you, and I got this sense that you were making some strange attempt at creating more disagreement between tw and I.

That's some of the things I remember about you. And they're not things that make super confident but you should understand gut feels more than anybody because your scumhunting style is like 99% emotional on the emotional/logical scale. The anti-cerberus if you will.

So yeah tell me why sky is the one manipulating you not the other way. And tell me where JM fits in your triangle. I'll give you the other names involved in the lynch persivul collective when I compile the list of quotes.

-BuJ

where did skitter mention anything about being manipulated by me or whatever?

She didn't. I am saying that scum are trying to take control of the game. Set-up persivul for a lynch and establish a townblock that serves their agenda. To do they choose a few townies to manipulate to make their plans more credible. You agree to their narrative, welcome to their townblock. You don't, you're on your own.

Skitter is obviously reacting to my analysis as though she's town. So I'm saying IF she is, she's been manipulated and I want her to help me believe that/and also identify who did the manipulating.

You jump out as a suspect, because not a lot of players here can tug at the heartstrings of skoffin, and one of them is my hydra partner, so actually the list is even shorter. That's why it's more likely that she is the manipulator not the victim, but by engaging her she might convince me otherwise.

-BuJ

ur right i definitely talked skitter into voting persi whoops my b

You got her to townread you and vork.

-BuJ

And you didn't do anything about the persivul wagon until you decided to join it later.

Pulling strings from afar.

My theory is dependent on scum empowering town to do the wrong thing by making them think it's the right thing.

I just don't know yet who's manipulating whom.

-BuJ

So why are you helping scum continue the push on persivul?

What convinced you that she isn't scum pocketing you?


-BuJ

If persivul ever dies and flips town I will tunnel JM like I've never tunnelled anybody in my life. Townslip be damned in that case.

100% sure persivul is being set-up for a mislynch at some point during the game.

There is a very devious, deliberate, narrative-shaping approach being followed here. A systematic method of townreading those that agree, shading or scumreading those that don't, alienating outsiders, and misrepresenting persivul.

Can't read the player? Read the damn game. Spidey senses are tingling like crazy.

Granted I can't say for a fact that JM is the scum among those creating this atmosphere, but that's who's doing the things I mentioned most obviously.

-BuJ

@skitter - remember when I said this?

Now think back. What happened between the time when shoshin was townreading you 100% and when she began scumreading you?

Exactly.

You changed your mind on persivul, and insisted on the chemist push.
In other words directly disagreeing with shoshin's reads.

Shoshin if town is now just a puppet for scum basically.

Game feels more like a cult and if you don't like it you get exiled. Kind of a bad metaphor because who wants to be in a cult am I right, but you get the point.

I don't like being pushed to think in a certain way. I will form my own reads than you very much.

@Phantismo (I missed this nickname) - you feel really weird mate. I've been scum against town!you twice in the past and you've never seemed this sheepy/unsure/scared to form an original thought before.

I think tw is asleep atm but I'll be talking about the baezu vote. Baezu hasn't exactly done anything that makes me go "okay this guy is town", he's kinda nullscum, whereas we both agreed that chemist is scum. So our vote will probably end up back there.

@Dunn - why did you join this game?

Irrel I think you're town I just disagree with you strongly.

I don't skitter would have played like she did if she were persy's partner. I just don't. It doesn't make sense to me from like a personal agenda from her pov, and it doesn't make sense to me based on how she interacted with our slot. I don't think it's an objective thing, I wouldn't know how to convince you of it.

The other thing is that would invalidate my gamestate read that lead me to townread persy. And I don't like to think of my correct reads as mere coincidence. Sky/Sho/Skitter, were at least for some period of time all townreading each other and scumreading Persivul. I believe there were others also they just didn't commit to votes. I thought for sure at least 1 scum among them had completely manipulated the townies among them. I flip flopped about who that may be, mainly due to influences from other players' reads but with the flips being what they are I'd like to think I was right.

And if skitter did all that to distance from a partner, I think it's completely underestimating her skill to think that she would scumread him and turn votes towards him, then when the hydra head that scumreads her pushes back against the persivul wagon she starts to backtrack until straight up townreading persivul after what? An emotional 1v1 between them over meta? It's far too obvious but it assumes a whole lot of preparation for the gambit at the same time, and I see that as a contradiction.

Maybe I'm wrong, though I don't think so. Maybe persy is mafia instead of wolf and I'm wasting my breath for no reason because who cares what scum team we lynch, but I really don't think he's a wolf.

Was baezu the guy who townread dunn based on his wagon slowing down? Because that's like so upside down.

I've never seen this much resistance / hesistancy towards a lynch of a slot nobody cares about not even the slot's owner.

-BuJ

Some thoughts here:
-insists repeatedly it's shoshin or sky doing the manipulating, skitter being manipulated
-repeats over and over that persivul is town without giving any reason other than "pretty sure he's being set up for a mislynch"
-most of these points are directly contradicted by nightkills

Why mass claim though?

One of each scum team is dead. So numbers wise we're okay. And we can hunt for associatives on both teams now.

Persivul is now a pretty solid townread given that wolf!skitter first tried to lynch him, then townread him when that wagon didn't get traction. At the very least Persivul isn't wolf.

I propose we lymch creature or dunn.

Dunn isn't playing the game and is the only lurker nobody seemed to push back when there was talk of a lurker wagon. Suspicious behavior from the crowd.
Creature hyperposted a little but not kept it up. Also his reads are less accurate than I have come to expect. He's a gut player we're not expecting miraculously convincing cases full of reasoning. He's just been off on several reads so far and that's concerning.

-BuJ

The bolded is literally the opposite of what happened
Skitter tried to distance, then townread persivul when the wagon gained traction

[Irrelephant11]

Why is everyone ignoring the part of my case

I dont think anyone is ignoring your or tr:dl you at all. I think that its not our lynch today. Do you want persy over dunn/dave/fusco/bae/whoever?

kinda
I'm sort of okay with a dunnstral lynch but fmpov I dunno what his partner is doing because I'm the only one who looks like a powerscumming partner for him rn, and the last wagon that had this "will they won't they" momentum was chemist
i.e. dunnstral is both scummy and very LHF so I can't decide how much I want that lynch v. a titus lynch

[Irrelephant11]

fmpov I dunno what his partner is doing

unless, like, dave maybe

[Fuscosco]

I think that an inactive dunn would be best left to see if the wagon died? it kind of has over the day, but we can keep it on track.

[Fuscosco]

Like Id either jump on it early and stay on it or just keep my distance from it as a scump in balls.

It makes more sense than WKing an empty slot.

[Fuscosco]

But yea, dunn lynch is kind of infoless in terms in wagoncomp and content.

Id like dave as the backup lynch actually.

[Vorkuta]

Possibilities in terms of alignment ratios are either 2:2:12 or 3:3:10.

Remember when I wanted to MC?
It might give insights in partner hunting as well

[Irrelephant11]

Why is everyone ignoring the part of my case

I dont think anyone is ignoring your or tr:dl you at all. I think that its not our lynch today. Do you want persy over dunn/dave/fusco/bae/whoever?

I want persivul dead over dave/you/bae, yes. I could be convinced to go dave/you if someone else got real towny and made a real strong case but currently I feel like I'm one of like 3 town so I kinda want to lead the lynch on behalf of dead town, ye

[Irrelephant11]

Possibilities in terms of alignment ratios are either 2:2:12 or 3:3:10.

Remember when I wanted to MC?
It might give insights in partner hunting as well

Why do you want to be read as traitor

[Fuscosco]

Possibilities in terms of alignment ratios are either 2:2:12 or 3:3:10.

Remember when I wanted to MC?
It might give insights in partner hunting as well

[Vorkuta]

Why do you want to be read as traitor

Can I get this in english please?

[Fuscosco]

I'm one of like 3 town

I think there's . . . 8? of us right now?

[Fuscosco]

Why do you want to be read as traitor

Can I get this in english please?

STOP FISHING FOR YOUR PARTNERS AND ASKING TO BE RECRUITED

[Vorkuta]

....what?

[Fuscosco]

Akshully, how does one traitor/defector work in this anyway?

[Irrelephant11]

I'm one of like 3 town

I think there's . . . 8? of us right now?

7, my point being that I have very few strong townreads this gameday

[Vorkuta]

ground for scum!persivul with a scumpartner. And then Buj is saying “they don’t look like partners” and “give skitter credit at being good at distancing”

I just feel that this argument works differently depending on whether it's 2:2 or 3:3

[Irrelephant11]

Oh, well I've already pointed out that there's a 95% chance of 3:3
I think flips potentially rule out 2:2 anyway

[Irrelephant11]

I think flips potentially rule out 2:2 anyway

this turns out to not be true but the first point still stands
I'm playing assuming it's 3:3