Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

So we're in a post or deadline situation? Consider this filler post, I'm only about halfway through the game. Skruffs and eldarad don't look good (ooh, foreshadowing!)

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

[quote="yos"Yeah, a NL wouldn't be disastors today. I do think, though, that someone or something has probably prevented the scum from killing a couple of times (I don't know if it's items or a role or something); and so I would rather lynch in the hopes that at some point another kill will be prevented and then we'll get an extra lynch. [/quote]

First of all, I agree with yosarian2 (dammit!) here.

Early game, I didn't like skruffs tunnel vision of zindaras, and it seemed like a fairly weak argument. I also didn't like eldarad's coasting.

Then we get to the items, and, I mean, eldarad's behavior is exactly what I'd expect scum to do when given an item.

"Well, shit, I have a one-shot investigation, that's not doing me much good. Even if I claim it now, the town might not believe me. So I'll just keep quiet. Oh, wait, skruffs had an item? And they all believe him? I guess I investigated. . . rotten snitch. That won't tell them anything if they lynch me."

Hasdfgas' lurking seems out of character, so I guess he'd be my second choice, but I don't see any reason not to

vote eldarad.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

There's a disconnect in your thought process there - I either made up the result, or I actually used the item. I can't do both/neither.
Plus, you seem to have missed the point that it wasn't a one-shot cop. Unless you know that the scum are werewolves, in which case I'll defer to your judgement.

Maybe you did use it on RS. But if you did, why didn't you say something? Hell, you could have used it on someone else and just don't want to give us the information. I just don't see a pro-town reason not to claim that.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Mizzy, why aren't you voting for eldarad?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I guess, I mean, there's a difference between Day 1 and lylo. Its interesting that she says the person she find scummiest is probably town, which sort of implies that she doesn't think he's scummy, and not the scummiest.

However, at this point, you are clearly either scum, or all the scum are already voting for you, or there are only two scum. So I'm not interested in pursuing mizzy at the moment.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

However, at this point, you (eldarad) are clearly either scum, or all the scum are already voting for you, or there are only two scum.

Comments on this, mizzy? Mizzy's hesitance to hammer when there's a possibility of a no-lynch is making me suspicious.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Post. Waiting for the hammer.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well. . . any response to the item would depend on what the item is, and since no one's said what it is yet. . . what kind of response are you looking for?

Anyway,

Vote Y.

The three most plausible scums left are me, Y, and hasdfgas, and, well, I know its not me. Y didn't really seem interested in the eldarad wagon, tried to derail it by going after yosarian.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

We knew yos thought mizzy was town, he said so fairly explicitly. So that doesn't necessarily clear mizzy, but I still think y or hasdfgas are better lynches.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I agree with this, except I have no such confidence about TSPN being town as of yet.

And what Y said. Obviously I don't expect all of you guys to take my word for it. But I'm going to keep on hunting from my perspective, which is that I'm town.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm willing to state what items I received if it is deemed to be the correct move. I do think, however, that claiming some items might not be a good idea.

Yeah, I'd say leave it up to player discretion. I don't see any particular advantage in having every item claimed.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh, I don't think eldarad fabricated anything. I think he received an item and couldn't decide what to do with it.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

What makes you think that?

Its a fairly creative claim for little appreciable gain.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Could be. I don't think so. I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Especially after this conversation where he doesn't think Eldarad gained anything from that item claim. He was scum, everything he did was for personal gain, sheesh.

Did you read what I wrote? Even if that "everything scum does is for personal gain" thing wasn't patently silly, that wasn't even the point I was making.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, I wasn't really anticipated being cleared. . . but could you explain why it makes me scummy?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh, no, if anything, I was engaging in a little self-promotion, because my case on eldarad was based on him reacting like scum would react to being given a pro-town item.

If I were scum, wouldn't I

know

whether it was a scum-laden barrel of lies? Or is that the case you're making?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Even though I said I didn't think it was a lie?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

That's the whole point. It seems pretty obvious that something's wrong with that claim, but you keep insisting that we should ignore it.

Please explain where I said we should ignore eldarad's claim, because apparently I've kept insisting that, yet I can't find a single one of my posts that said this.

And why would you think it wasn't a lie? Is there not a possibility of you lying about your opinion on the matter, anyway?

Like I said before, my theory on eldarad involved him as scum trying to react to having an item that was essentially only useful to non-scum. I've seen no reason to revise that theory.

But anyway, so now your theory is I'm lying about what my opinion is about eldarad lying about having an item at all because. . . I'm sorry, why would I do that again?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

We basically have two items that do the same thing. Do you really think they are both real? Especially when Moonshine is alcohol and Ether is not a moron?

I consider it likely, because the risk-reward ratio as scum just doesn't line up with something that's fake. Why say you used it on the dead player, unless, of course, that's what you did? Please respond to the

relevant

questions, in which you and y try to make a case based on things I didn't say.

@Skruffs: I dunno, I wasn't

certain

, but he was definitely on my pro-town side of the list.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

No. Stop dodging.

You're acting like we shouldn't give the Eldarad item claim quite the amount of scrutiny that I think we should be and that makes me wonder if it's because you're not interested due to the fact that maybe you already knew it was a lie.

You said this. Where do you see me doing that?

It seems pretty obvious that something's wrong with that claim, but you keep insisting that we should ignore it.

Y said that. Do you agree?

Also, please reiterate why my posts regarding eldarad make me scummy.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I am not dodging, you are putting meaning into my mouth. I said you are ACTING like, not that you directly said it. The quote that really made me start wondering about it was #1257, specifically. After that, all of your posts just get worse.

Please be specific. Because, see, I really disagree with your entire point. I was engaging hasdfgas on the item claim, and discussing it, as opposed to ignoring it entirely or trying to dismiss it.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Wishy washy to the extreme.

So you completely disregard or choose to dismiss the entire opposite of the equation? What if your entire case was right for the wrong reasons? Or right because you had information the rest of us don't and had nothing to do with the item claim? This is my point.

So am I being wishy washy about eldarad, or completely disregarding the possibility that I'm wrong?

And if lying somehow makes you look more townie, wouldn't you do that?

And how does lying about that make me look more townie?

Please state, precisely, why the way I have behaved makes me more likely to be scum. Don't say "after post X, it gets worse." Don't say "either your case is wrong, or your scum and your case is right," because that doesn't make sense and doesn't really encompass all the possibilities.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You use a lot of open-ended wording that says either you are unsure but stubborn about your opinion, or you are trying, on purpose, not to look too sure of yourself.

I guess unsure but stubborn, in the lack of any kind of evidence that convinces me otherwise, is fair. Now make the connection between unsure and stubborn, because just because you say you've done it don't make it true.

No, I am not going to state my case/opinions again because I already have, multiple times.

You've stated your opinions. You haven't stated your case. Why are you so uncomfortable doing so if you're so confident I'm scum? Shouldn't your case be pretty good?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

*cough y is scum cough*

Is there

anything

implausible about a y-mizzy-eldarad group? I'm feeling like I can take that to the bank.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Also, sorry for the triple post, but I'm going to be out of town this weekend until Sunday. I'll try to check the game before I leave in the morning, but in case I don't have time, you may not hear from me for a few days.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't know. How about you try to convince us of it since most people are thinking you're the scummy one.

Fair enough. Mizzy, I'm done arguing with you about your case that isn't.

If I'm scum, who am I scum with?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh, oh, I understand completely.

Hasdfgas, this is why you need to vote for y. As mizzy just put it, either me and y are buddies, or me and you are buddies. If me and y are buddies, then the possible scumgroups are me and y, or mizzy and y. Y being the common denominator, so please vote for him. If I'm his scumbuddy, I won't miss him one bit.

Or of course, me and you are scum. But you know whether or not that's true.

TT, this goes out to you too, but as you don't know that me and hasdfgas aren't the scum, I have to rely on you deciding which scumgroup is more plausible.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Erm, I rewrote that and something got left out. It was supposed to read "If me and Y are buddies, then we can lynch Y today. The possible scumgroups are me and Y, or mizzy and Y."

And yes, "I'm worrying about finding scum" sounds very nice. But consider this: If mizzy and TT are wrong, mislynching me loses us the game. If mizzy and TT are right, you can still lynch my only possible buddy. Which is Y.

I've been checking on this game while packing and such, but this really will be my last post until Monday. Y and mizzy are the scum. Please don't mess it up.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

OK. I'm in an interesting position, because I

know

mizzy is scum, but I don't think I can convince you all to lynch her.

Y is almost definitely her partner.

You're doing this, basically mathematically right now, and that's not how we're supposed to be doing it. Find proof of scumminess. Stop giving us your BS.

Not how we're "supposed" to be doing it? Why?

But Y's thoughts on eldarad:

74: Says he doesn't like eldarad's interaction with RS, but ends up voting for RS, not eldarad. Has at this point been on both of the early game townie wagons.

104:

I'm not completely sure about eldarad. I'm really torn between "Scared scum" and "Really bad player" (Note that RS was even less logical than eldarad is, and he was town).

Really disinterested in taking a position one way or another. Ends up voting for yosarian.

That's pretty much it. Y has gone after a lot of people, but except for one FOS that was never followed up on, he hasn't had much to say about eldarad.

That's the whole point. It seems pretty obvious that something's wrong with that claim, but you keep insisting that we should ignore it.

Also, how about this? Y seems to know something about eldarad's claim, in addition to making stuff up about me "insisting we should ignore it." Which, Y, as soon as you can find a post where I insist anything of the sort, let me know.

Plus the math stuff. Which you shouldn't dismiss.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

What glorious information do you have that says I'm scum? I'd love to hear it.

You and Tiger Twins have voted for me, and Tiger Twins is confirmed enough town for my satisfaction.

I suppose there could only be two scum. In which case you wouldn't necessarily be the last one.

But if there's three, then I'd already be dead if you weren't scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

His whole item story just popped up in a weird way as soon as eldarad needed an explanation as to why he was protecting RS. He (eldarad) then gave a weird crap-logic explanation to cover the fact he knew RS was town, but did nothing about it.
So you tell me: Perfect timing, illogical behaviour and the obvious results of the lynch, and you still say there's nothing wrong about it? This is the second time I write this for you, yet you just ignored it.

I still don't see the utility in making it up for scum, and as such, don't think he was. I think the timing meant that he obviously didn't choose to reveal it right away.

But when did I say there was nothing wrong about it? I seem to recall coming into the game and voting for him because of the way he revealed it. I still don't see him making up the item completely, though. What kind of conclusions would you draw if he had?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

That ALONE should make us want to avoid no lynch like the plague.

I agree with this.

Let's lynch TSPN, and lynch him before we mess up this deadline block madness.

Not so much with this. Is there any particular reason you think mizzy is town? Because she's not.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Why is mizzy scum, TSN? Please explain.

Because if we're in lylo, then one of mizzy or TT must be scum. Well, a possibility does occur to me in which after having two nightkills blocked, our remaining scum are gunshy, in which case it could be Y-skruffs, Y-hasdfgas, or hasdfgas-skruffs. But I don't think any of those scenarios likely. I especially think it unlikely skruffs is scum, which rules out a skruffs-TT group. So its probably mizzy-Y, might be mizzy-hasdfgas.

Unfortunately, this is the sort of information that does people who are not me very little good. Mizzy's been keeping her nose clean. You might notice her refusal to hammer eldarad even when it was the obvious protown thing to do, and her seriously weak attempt to make something out of me disagreeing over whether eldarad was making up his claim or not, but the case on Y is more compelling if you don't already know that I'm town, which is why I'm voting for him.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Except, if you know me at all (which you don't, obviously) then you would know that I am 99% of the time VERY shy to hammer and always wait until I am sure that no one else has anything to say and that we are all sure of it before I do. I do it quite frequently, in townie roles. So I fail to see why me doing it HERE is scummy, especially when I explained why I was feeling that way time after time.

That's true, I've never played with you before, maybe its your style.

Do we definitely know the chain letter was sent N1? If so, then there are two item sources, or yosarian could produce two items.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

What about his quick vote in LYLO and insistence Mizzy is scum?

Either you are scum or Mizzy is scum, or the scum don't have the stones to quick hammer.

That'd be why I keep insisting mizzy is scum. Regarding her past, though, compare my posts regarding eldarad and hers. Granted, I could have been bussing, but she doesn't ever really look like someone who wants to lynch eldarad.

What has she done that makes you think she's protown, guardian?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Did you miss the parts where I was very against him but refused to act on that because I wasn't sure if it was my thoughts on him being scum or if my feelings were just OMGUS based? Because I expressed multiple times that I thought he was suspicious.

You expressed multiple times that you thought he was suspicious, but didn't vote for him until you absolutely had to? You're right, that's something scumbuddies never do.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

And obviously, that's something townies never do, because every other game I've done it in, I wasn't really a townie, the mod lied about my role.

Granted. But doing something that scum partners do to scum partners that you happen to do to people as town as well doesn't make you town.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You misread me. You can't explain away something scummy you did by saying you do it as town. Its still scummy all the same.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

That sort of meta bullshit becomes less applicable in endgame, but whatever.

So you acted toward eldarad as you might have as town, or as you might have as scum (and how most people might act as scum).

Let's compare. These are the kind of things that I said about eldarad:

Then we get to the items, and, I mean, eldarad's behavior is exactly what I'd expect scum to do when given an item.

Maybe you did use it on RS. But if you did, why didn't you say something? Hell, you could have used it on someone else and just don't want to give us the information. I just don't see a pro-town reason not to claim that.

Mizzy, why aren't you voting for eldarad?

This is what you said about eldarad:

Okay, now I'm pissed. If you had this information that RS was probably not the scum then why didn't you come forward with it BEFORE we lynched him?

FoS: eldarad

No vote. And this wasn't any kind of a hammering situation, and you were definitely willing to vote for RS yesterday.

I would prefer an Andylynch over an Eldaradlynch, mostly because I think that might be OMGUS on Eld's part and I don't want to vote someone based on OMGUS, even if there are a good case of points against him.

Then you say you'd still prefer an andy/me lynch.

then I think we should ignore the items and just scumhunt the old-fashioned way.

And now we should ignore the items. Conveniently, that's the reason to suspect eldarad.

Then there's the reluctance to hammer, which, if you want to explain that away by meta, fine, whatever. But you didn't show much interest in going after eldarad prior to being put in the hammer situation either.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I've never seen a more blatant example of trying to hide behind meta.

Mizzy, just out of curiosity, how do you normally act toward scumbuddies?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Post.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I really haven't seen a good defense from TSN. He just seems to be attacking Mizzy without extremely good reasons.

What I am defending against? Mostly andy's hammers, it seems, which I can't really defend.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Post. (Sorry, I'm working 60 hours this week, not as much time for mafia as I'd like).

But yeah, I didn't have a lot of time to respond to hasdfgas. . . but the only attack on me has been mizzy's attempt to make something out of me thinking that eldarad wasn't making up the item. All the rest of the stuff is against andy, and I'm sorry that he hammered two townies, and I'm definitely sorry yos thought he was suspicious. . . but there's nothing for me to really defend against.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSPN: You think a lynch is good for town, but you seem resigned to being lynched yourself. What's your deal?

I'm not resigned, so much as I have very little to say about myself, since the majority of the case of me is based on what a dead guy had to say about the guy i replaced (ok, i exaggerate, but the only person attacking me based on my play is mizzy, and her case on me still doesn't make any sense).

I support either a Y or a mizzy lynch, because I'm almost sure that they're the two remaining scum.

Just because I don't think the item existed doesn't mean that I can't find TSPN's reaction to the item/item claim/item claim results after the fact scummy. I feel like TSPN is feeling hesitant about attacking a scumbuddy's potentially-fake item claim.

I didn't feel too hesitant about it yesterday. While you were busy waffling, I was busy actually attacking scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You are incorrect, particularly in a situation where one of us is almost certainly scum. Also, as we've both agreed, I don't have much to defend, so really, offense is all I have.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

My case on Y is based on scumminess, his attitude toward eldarad particularly, and my case on mizzy is based (mostly) on numbers.

That is, Mizzy is almost definitely scum, because if it was Y and hasdfgas, or, I suppose, Y and you, or some other increasingly less likely combination, you could hammer, even with four to lynch. I think Y is more likely scum with mizzy than hasdfgas. . . and now considering that Y also has two votes, that also pretty well knocks out a mizzy-hasdfgas combination.

So I'm down for lynching either of them, but Y seems to be the more lynchable player today.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Mizzy and guardian were. So if the two scum were not mizzy and guardian, they would be able to hammer.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Don't forget to include yourself, dear. You know your role, but we don't.

Thanks for that. I'll keep playing from my perspective.

Regarding the hammers, even though I didn't make them. . . is it specifically worse to hammer than any other vote on the wagon? If so, why? If not, well, skruffs, yosarian, and Y were on both of those wagons also. So I think "drop dead scummy" is a bit of a stretch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

A hammer is always the most scrutinized vote on a lynch because it is the deciding factor.

But should it be the most scrutinized vote? Is it more scummy to lead a bandwagon on a townie or to finish it?

Anyway, guardian, I'm going to make a similar proposal to you that I did to hasdfgas: The consensus seems to be that Y is scum with either me or mizzy. If Y were to come up scum, after I spent all day going after him, while mizzy went after me, after yesterday immediately going after eldarad, while mizzy hemmed and hawed over the hammer, might that change your opinion a little?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Skruffs sent me the letter prior to his death. That's really all I have to report, and we should still lynch Y.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm trying to get Y lynched because of his attitude toward eldarad. At least, originally. I mean, at this point, everyone thinks its a good idea. Let's just finish what should have been done yesterday.

Vote Y.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I was working a 60 hour shift that week and thought we had more time than we did, when I got home on Friday night, the thread had already been closed.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

What's your excuse for not hammering the obvious consensus lynch, allowing a no-lynch to occur?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

My excuse is that I think that you, TSNP, is a better scumbet. I would much rather lynch someone I am 100% sure about than someone I'm only 85% sure about.

Anyway, TSPN's vote once again proves that there is 1 scum between him and Y, probably 2 scum (I hear distancing is all the rage these days) so:

Vote: TSPN

I'm not scum, I don't think TT/Guardian is scum, I'm neutral on Cow and I am positive that one of Y and TSPN is scum. Considering Andy's hammers and TSPN's scummy actions yesterday and his defensive attitude today, I think he's the better scumbet, and if I had to bet the house on it, I'd say he's probably a powerscum.

Honestly, I don't think that anything that Y did is nearly as scummy as Andy's hammers and TSPN's reactions to things. And I certainly don't like his attitude now. I would settle for a Y lynch, since I think they are both scum, but I would sleep much better at night knowing that Andy/TSPN hadn't gotten away with all that scumminess.

In this post, mizzy goes back on everything she said about Y.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'd like to hear from those who allowed the no lynch to happen why they think that play was pro-town and helpful.

Well, it wasn't, but then again, it wasn't my intention to cause a no-lynch.

I find Mizzy highly town-like.

What, exactly, about mizzy's play do you find town-like?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Is there any flaw in this logic? Mizzy, myself, and hasd are all cleared from being scum except as a partner of Y.... ergo, Y must be scum, (unless we have only one scum left).

That's what I was saying yesterday! Except yesterday, people didn't want to hear about "common denominators," they wanted to hear about scumminess. (/bitter)

But seriously, we should be lynching Y today, because he absolutely has to be scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

To add?

Well, you and Y are still the scum.

I hope you kill hasdfgas so the battle for Guardian's soul can continue tomorrow.

Will you hammer Y already?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

This post is possibly one of the scummiest you have made yet; It shows an eagerness to get to night, an omen of a kill, and hints at not wanting Cow to speak before the day ends. Add in the possibilities of distancing and setting up a mislynch tomorrow, and you have one suspicious post.

Yep. I am eager to complete the scum lynch we decided on

yesterday

, omg I know there's going to be a scum kill. . . and what wouldn't I want hasdfgas to say?

Did anyone receive anything last night?

Just the chain letter from skruffs.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Mizzy has this interesting habit of claiming innocuous activities are suspicious.

Yep, I sent you the letter. Because, y'know, this situation amuses me.
It was actually a razz, not a smileyface.

Anyway:

This is why Mizzy is scum. We've had two people come up scum, eldarad and Y.

In (Mizzy's) post 80 through 82, mizzy and eldarad argue over the capricious wagon. Mizzy never votes for eldarad. Eldarad does vote for mizzy, but only until he can say:

I'm still not liking Mizzy's behaviour in general Today - and it will be very interesting to see how she votes - but we need to move towards a consensus lynch and I don't think Mizzy will be the lynch Today.

Translation: Day 2 Bussing, Complete!

Eldarad lived second on mizzy's scum list for day 3 and day 4. But she never voted for him until strongly pressured into finally, reluctantly, hammering.

For comparison, this is my second post:

Hasdfgas' lurking seems out of character, so I guess he'd be my second choice, but I don't see any reason not to vote eldarad.

So if I'm scum, I decided to immediately come into the game and start bussing away. Then we have Y:

In the early game, Mizzy and Y have, really, no interaction with each other. They don't FOS each other, vote each other (except in the very beginning of day 1, where Y FOS's Mizzy for "not making sense."

Later on (once I've replaced in) Y does say this:

TSPN, I can see other scum-groups, and you're on most of them, while Mizzy isn't.

Then he votes for me to "prevent a no-lynch" on the day we no-lynched. The next day, he votes for me also.

Meanwhile, mizzy:

While Y is at L-1, mizzy says: "I'd be happy with a Y lynch."And then we no-lynch. Then the next day, she votes me.

Just so we're clear: Y, the person who was scum, said he thought I was "scum since yesterday." Mizzy voted me instead of voting Y until absolutely forced into it by the complete lack of momentum on my wagon (which mizzy and Y were both on).

For a final comparison: I have

immediately

voted both of the other scum without any pressure.

Mizzy has reluctantly hammered both of the scum.

Also, "I only vote when I'm certain," Mizzy, interestingly, didn't have to be encouraged to vote for townie RS. She was second on

that

wagon. So that "cautious voter" thing doesn't really hold up.

The prosecution rests.

I hate long posts.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh, and

Vote mizzy.

Y'know, you think you remember everything. . .

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Huh. Well, I certainly wasn't expecting that.

It was weird trying to "hunt" when the way the game played out meant I was absolutely confident who the werewolves were. It might have even handicapped me a little.

Eldarad's crazy "werewolves-aren't-scum" makes so much more sense now.