Talk to me about your read list, and explain them please. I seen your read list on page 13, and to be honest not reading the entire thread, it feels fake/forced.
only forced in the sense that some of the reads were less developed then i want them to be
i can do an updated readslist if u want or would u prefer me to talk to you in the context of that post
Didn't quite like that you put FB in the middle, then someone calls it, you move it a few posts later. Your mindset should really be made to where you want people than someone questioning it and your attempting to appease by moving that slot.
In post 467, Kop wrote:How many games have you played with Dunn? Why won't you case him?
only forced in the sense that some of the reads were less developed then i want them to be
i can do an updated readslist if u want or would u prefer me to talk to you in the context of that post
Didn't quite like that you put FB in the middle, then someone calls it, you move it a few posts later. Your mindset should really be made to where you want people than someone questioning it and your attempting to appease by moving that slot.
I'm confused - who do u think oka is appeasing there?
Page 13. He was talking to lich. Lich questioned his reads, then few posts later, Oka moved his read on firebringer up a tier.
It might just be my little mind doing silly things. I just felt that was somehow the case in my mind.
In post 541, OkaPoka wrote:Kop explain to me in context how I was appeasing lich
It felt to me that you put out your reads, and lich questioned one of your reads, it felt to me that in order to try look like your actively reaching out, you moved firebringer up because it was mentioned. I just don't know whether you would have moved firebringer up if it hadn't been mentioned a few posts earlier.
It would have made more sense if you had moved him up a lot later than you did, or by interacting more with firebringer, but not as soon as it was mentioned by someone else for you to do it.
I'm probably thinking too much into it tbh, and seeing something that isn't actually there.
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
I can explain why my wagon stalling is me town with temp being scum.
Scenario A) Double scum on me. That means half the wagon is composed of false reads, makes decent sense since there is a core of townies who still townread me, just fractured.
Scenario B) One scum on me. This means scum going for the hammer will result in two scum on me for a hammer wagon, and like I explained wrt Kop and Dunn they might've been too intimidated to go for the hammer with the incrimination, especially if they feel they could get me hammered without as much incrimination.
Ugh, I can't get to sleep, decide to check Mafiascum as something to do, and there's somehow another five pages in three hours in the middle of the night? I've read them but I'm not sure if I'm in the right mental state to comprehend them.
Something that's bothering me: most of the evidence OkaPoka is relying on for his current reasoning behind the TemporalLich scumread comes fairly early in the thread (with #425 apparently the latest relevant post; #592 was also mentioned but doesn't seem to contain any differing reads from #425), yet the reason that OkaPoka is currently relying on comes at #593/#596. OkaPoka doesn't seem to have seen that particular read reasoning as recently as #501…#503.
In other news, as I can't sleep, I may as well make my own analysis of TemporalLich's read progression (this will be largely focused on OkaPoka both because it's a slot I've been focused on and because it was a slot TemporalLich was focused on):
Ignoring RVS wagons, TemporalLich's second real vote is #167, explained in #174. Oka's posts between #156 (where Lich had a "meh" read on TemporalLich) and #167 are #164/#165 (with 164 probably being the relevant post). It seems like TemporalLich and OkaPoka had gradually started to establish a scumread on each other in the aftermath of #109, TemporalLich's
first
real vote. AFAICT, OkaPoka thought that #109 was reasonable as an RVS vote, but when (#129) TemporalLich stated that it was a genuine read, OkaPoka decided that that couldn't possibly be a genuine statement (#130) and started scumreading TemporalLich for it. TemporalLich saw this scumread (by OkaPoka on TemporalLich) as so ridiculous that it couldn't be coming from town (and many of the more analytical players agreed), which is pretty clear from #201 … #217. So I don't see anything unexpected or scummy about TemporalLich's read progression there, apart from the delay before the switch to OkaPoka (maybe he simply hadn't read through the thread or thought about it or whatever, plenty of other people have also been doing that this game, including both OkaPoka and me).
So by #254, TemporalLich realises that there's not much purpose to continuing to vote for OkaPoka because the wagon is unlikely to go through immediately.
I think this is the #1 biggest playstyle difference between TemporalLich and OkaPoka, and if this is TvT, it explains where the mutual scumreads are coming from.
TemporalLich has decided that his current main wagon isn't going anywhere (having made a few attempts to push it but getting no new material), and decided that he can get better reads by pushing elsewhere. This is something that most experienced townies do (and most experienced scum are thus forced to fake) because it's one of the only ways to advance a deadlocked gamestate, and also means you can get a better evaluation of the gamestate more generally and maybe shake yourself out of a tunnel if you're wrong. Based on OkaPoka's behaviour, Oka apparently completely rejects this style of play, continuing to tunnel hard (and ineffectively) on a dying wagon even when I tried to prompt him to do otherwise. So OkaPoka is seeing TemporalLich as having artificial reads for wanting to push players other than his previous largest scumread, and I'm seeing OkaPoka as being intentionally useless for
not
doing that. So far, there's nothing scummy or artificial about TemporalLich's play, and it's obvious to me (based on trying to run through in my mind how other players are thinking given their general playstyles) that TemporalLich will move to the worst or Firebringer (or possibly Dunnstral, but that's less likely). TemporalLich settles on Firebringer (#285), with the implication that it's for having terrible reads. The implication of #285 is that Lich
still thinks
OkaPoka is scum, but wants to see if a wagon can be built elsewhere (reading between the lines, part of the Firebringer scumread is that TemporalLich apparently thinks that no sane townie could have a townread on OkaPoka, and that's an opinion that's both incorrect and entirely believable/plausible).
What I pick up from #385…#387 is that TemporalLich is angry. Probably if he sat back to think about the situation, Firebringer wouldn't actually have been his top scumread at that point, but Firebringer's playstyle (which is pretty different from, say, mine or TemporalLich's) is really a long way from how TemporalLich apparently thinks that town should play. Lich is asking for reasons, Fire is refusing to give them, Lich is annoyed and (for the moment, at least) sure in his vote on Fire who is from Lich's point of view being intentionally intransigent and anti-town. Probably this is subconscious, and Lich would think that he's simply thinking through the game logically (and say so if you asked him at the time), but right now #320 is at the forefront of Lich's mind (based on post timing, Lich has likely only just read it as part of a catchup), and Lich in the moment doesn't believe that anyone could possibly be scummier than Firebringer. He's been asked for a reads list, so when he makes it, Firebringer's in the top spot. (Actually, the main thing that concerns me about the reads list in question is that the worst is probably too high – I'd expect him to be null at best from Lich's point of view – but small issues like that really aren't enough to scumread someone over.)
By #389, just two posts later but with an intervening reread/re-evaluation, TemporalLich has calmed down somewhat and realised that the Firebringer scumread probably isn't as strong as he emotionally thought it was, but is "still leaving my vote on firebringer because honestly refusing to explain stuff is not good for the town." At this point, OkaPoka is probably TemporalLich's top scumread, but really that's not the sort of thing you want to admit in-thread regardless of alignment when you're trying to pressure someone else, and the reason for not moving the vote is entirely plausible coming from a player like TemporalLich. As a result, the vote change in #425 really isn't a surprise; OkaPoka has been TemporalLich's top scumread for a long time, the wagon's looking viable again, his scumread on Firebringer is dying down somewhat, why wouldn't he change back? The only real surprise there is that the change didn't happen earlier.
Somewhat later, OkaPoka posts #598 complaining about Lich's readshifts. Lich sees the post, thinks "yes, that's a good summary of why I shifted (apart from missing why I'd scumread Firebringer), why on earth do you have that as a reason to scumread!". Then things descend into a bit of a nitpicking argument, especially as Lich can probably no longer remember the reasoning behind his reads. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them were post-rationalized gut reads; that's something I end up subconsciously doing all the time (if you think of yourself as an analytical player, it's rare for you to state a read without trying to rationalise it, and if you do, you'll try to rationalise it after the fact, but you'll often miss the real reason). I once had a game where I had four scumreads, three of them were the three scum, and after the game I discovered that none of the reasons I had for scumreading the players who were actually scum could possibly have been correct. That sort of accuracy is highly unlikely to be a coincidence, though.
Spoiler: Me catching all the scum for impossible reasons
In post 10943, callforjudgement wrote:Incidentally, it says quite a bit that out of the four players I read as scum over the course of the game (both watching it, and after replacing in), three of them were the three scum who existed in the game (sorry MathBlade for misreading you), and yet I feel like my scumhunting was terrible this game; every single player I caught, in retrospect my reason for catching them couldn't possibly have been correct. I had a strong read on Maxous as
group
scum (he wasn't), based on the way he claimed Survivor and on the fact that I felt the gamestate was most plausibly explained by a buddy covering for him with night actions. I thought the way SirCakez used night actions was implausible for a townie, but he was town at the time. I thought Gio had overclaimed, but the claim was entirely truthful. 3 out of 4 seems unlikely to be coincidence, and yet I still feel dissatisfied with the way my play turned out.
So in other words, I think that Lich's actual read progression has been pretty natural throughout the game, and that maybe there's been a bit of confusion in Lich's
stated
read progression that, if potentially regrettable, is nonetheless pretty plausible to have come from town. I also can't see much reason for scum to fabricate the particular reads in question (in particular, rejoining the OkaPoka wagon as the L-1 vote is probably a tactical mistake as scum, scum in Lich's position who wanted OkaPoka lynched or forced-to-claim could probably have naturally made themself the "intent to hammer" vote without it looking weird and it'd have increased the chance of someone else joining the wagon).
By #389, just two posts later but with an intervening reread/re-evaluation, TemporalLich has calmed down somewhat and realised that the Firebringer scumread probably isn't as strong as he emotionally thought it was, but is "still leaving my vote on firebringer because honestly refusing to explain stuff is not good for the town." At this point, OkaPoka is probably TemporalLich's top scumread, but really that's not the sort of thing you want to admit in-thread regardless of alignment when you're trying to pressure someone else, and the reason for not moving the vote is entirely plausible coming from a player like TemporalLich. As a result, the vote change in #425 really isn't a surprise; OkaPoka has been TemporalLich's top scumread for a long time, the wagon's looking viable again, his scumread on Firebringer is dying down somewhat, why wouldn't he change back? The only real surprise there is that the change didn't happen earlier.
No he continues to double down on his strand of logic
In post 390, OkaPoka wrote:umm but then by your admission firebringer explains his skitter sr? even if you think it comes from town more, its still his reasoning?
the thing is... 228 doesn't lead me to much reasons to reconsider my TR of skitter, and when firebringer is pushed to explain his skitter SR he just doesn't.
Which means he didn't reconsider anything. He should've reconsidered it reading that post of his and the words in between but the conclusion is the same when I pushed him.
+later on he doesn't say oh yeah for content, he stood by his readslist, so no. this is not for content. Like he could've said he is doing this for pressure and content any time when I was on him but he hasn't so I don't know why you are applying motivations to him.
And he admits that his scumread on firebringer isn't what was dying, its that I had been so scummy he bumped firebringer up to compensate so again, your applying false motivation to him that simply doesn't exist. Kind of a huge miss for you tbh. And its even a bigger surprise because he goes back and admits my posts in between the readslist and vote were townie so yeah.
Something that's bothering me: most of the evidence OkaPoka is relying on for his current reasoning behind the TemporalLich scumread comes fairly early in the thread (with #425 apparently the latest relevant post; #592 was also mentioned but doesn't seem to contain any differing reads from #425), yet the reason that OkaPoka is currently relying on comes at #593/#596. OkaPoka doesn't seem to have seen that particular read reasoning as recently as #501…#503.
What a meme.
The core of my scumread on temporal lich is backwards rationalization and I've said it since like the beginning of the game. Its just we have more evidence of it now.
So OkaPoka is seeing TemporalLich as having artificial reads for wanting to push players other than his previous largest scumread
Like this isn't my argument at all.
Its not because he wants to push player other than his previous largest scumread.
We can deduce some things from my interactions wrt Temporal.
He always votes his largest scumread, therefore if we look back to the thread we can see that his largest scumread shifts at the time don't make sense. That is the core problem.
I've got no other SR's and the game is stagnating.
He's transparent in that his scumread is his vote.
And he sticks with it, wanting to get intent to hammer which I can only presume he wants a roleclaim from dunn asap? I mean thats content in one way.
BUT
content can be better derived by pushing another wagon no? And he doesn't start another wagon, no he waits for dunn wagon to DIE before doing other stuff. Tell me how a content motivated player waits for others to break stagnation makes sense.
Like I fully agree that townies backward rationalize and can have weird read shifts but its way too coincidental at this point imo for this not to be scum motivated.
