Micro 887: the coaLITion [game over]

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Post Post #1050 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:28 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

In post 1035, EspressoPatronum wrote:@NC you haven't mentioned your read of Spangled since the ~500s, so a strong TR on him came as a bit of surprise. Can you give us an updated reads list?
In post 1041, NC 39 wrote:
In post 860, NC 39 wrote:
In post 663, NC 39 wrote:
In post 657, Hectic wrote:HURT: ALL
HEAL: Hectic, NC 39, Espresso, LUV, RCMA
will sub myself out for Gamma if required
What are you doing?
Why not
Alchemist or
Spangled?
@Espresso
Once again: @Espresso. Is RC’s selective amnesia catching or what?

Yes, you’re probably going to think I reacted strongly but I tend to get somewhat irritated when It’s clear to me I’ve made something blatantly obvious and continue to be questioned on it.
I do think you're reacting strongly, but that's consistent with before, so I'm not reading into it.

The post you quoted is from 650ish + the post by me said 500ish. It's not super far off considering we're in the thousands now. Your "@Espresso" in the 800s was related to your Alchemist read, so it's reasonable to assume you weren't quoting it to show me your Spangled read.

All that to show it's reasonable that I didn't misinterpret your posts. You ended up giving your updated reads, so I'm happy either way.
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Post Post #1051 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:31 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

In post 1047, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1019, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1016, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1013, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1012, NC 39 wrote:I think the fact that scum decided to kill within the coalition is pretty telling.
Telling of what?
Maybe I’m wrong and it’s WIFOM and RCMA was pretty townie but I nevertheless find it interesting that first scum kill was inside the coalition, don’t you?
Yes. I find it very interesting because RCMA was a sub-optimal kill target imo.
Well, I never got this post. Wasn’t almost everyone tr that slot?
Yeah that's true. That may have changed after the Alch flip, but it's tough to say.

I also made this post before I fully thought through the kill targets. Assuming 1in/1out, a kill within the coalition isn't actually suboptimal.
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Post Post #1052 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:37 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

In post 1040, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1037, Gamma Emerald wrote:Thinking for a little bit my early sense is it means scum might be in some of the middling reads outside the coalition? I recall Hectic being rather SR, Spangled was back and forth, and YAG I think was on the table for some but not really strong as anything. I think YAG is a decent push, Spangled a little less. There's also a question of who they can be scum with. I'll probably lynch in the coalition today but I'll use this logic to decide whom.
With RC being so wrong about Alchemist, it’s only strengthened my already strong tr on Spangled. Had Alchemist actually flipped scum, I would be a lot more likely to reconsider that slot but I’m going to go with my gut, like I wish I had done with Alchemist and rn, my gut is telling me he’s probably town and only way I’d even consider Spangled attp is if we get to LYLO and Hectic and GREAT have both flipped town.

If anyone thinks I’m not seeing something wrt to Spangled, let me know but I feel pretty good about this read.

Remember SC 2, I had Taly as a hard gut townlock and therefore also tr Creature because of it? Nobody listened to me because I couldn’t explain it but I just knew, like I knew Maria was 99.9999% flipping town in DnD. Unfortunately, I couldn’t get anyone to listen to me because I suck at the whole charisma thing. And I unfortunately tend to doubt myself when extremely confident players like RC are 100% convinced of their reads. I do sometimes have bad reads but rarely when they’re gutbased. I’m still mad at myself that I ignored my strong town gutread on Alchemist. I’m not making that mistake again, especially not in this game.
I'm with you on Spangled being hard town at the beginning, but I'm not as confident in him now. I'm feel good about you being town, so can you work with me by engaging in the following:

Assume for a moment that you're in my pov and you know you're town. Do Spangled's posts on you (read:EP) look like scum positioning or town game solving?


I'm pretty convinced he's scum who's been slowly trying to dial back his townread on me to open up mislynch targets, but I'd like another opinion.
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Post Post #1053 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:43 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

In post 1042, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1038, Skygazer wrote:
Prodding LUV and YOUAREGREAT
This is really getting super annoying. If either of you guys are town here, your being afk so often is super antitown. Like why did you guys even sign up for this? It’s getting beyond ridiculous that Sky has to continue to prod the two of you repeatedly.
Agreed. People always ask me why I like to try policy lynching lurkers in D1. I'll point them to this game in the future.

And then all we get is this when he comes back:
In post 1046, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:All I have so far is EP’s thoughts on the night kill feel super fake to me.
It's killing me
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Post Post #1054 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:48 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

@Spangled: I'm reading through your case on me now:

It's driving me crazy that you keep harping on my tone.
1. I already told you about my sometimes formalistic tone. It's a product of my work and field of study. Formal emails, letters, memos are all commonplace.
2. Do a meta skim on me and you'll see.
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Post Post #1055 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:11 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

In post 1049, Spangled wrote: I’ll probably revisit these thoughts and I
need
people to talk to me about them, but for now, here they are. Still not so sure what my read is; I need people to talk to me. I need it so much you would not believe; sorting EP properly will be critical to win this
Happy to oblige. My comments will be in this colour

PROMISED THOUGHTS ON EP
Early game: good; stuff like and and and .
Lots of it... seems very surface level? But early game that’s all you can do, really.
I actually thought the Hectic thing was a decent catch. I don't think many others were in a position to make that observation.

Lots of questions.
Haha, I do what I can.

: I like the reconsideration but it’s kind of when other people were starting to re-townread me I think, so ??

Tone still a bit weird, but if no one else is seeing that it’s probably not worth anything...?
This was killing me so much that I had to make a second post about it, lol. I didn't even read the second half of the sentence though, so perhaps my tone post is a little overboard

Uh... progression on Gamma is... almost nonexistent? Despite voting them near EoD1. I don’t like how it happens; it’s a consensus that’s built and he just accepts it as status quo; no apparent thought process just ‘others have called this person maybe-not-town; that seems like a good lynch to make’. I don’t like it.
I can't remember the context of my Gamma read, but I'm willing to bet it's because of his meta. Remind me later if this is still bugging you + I'll go back and look at it


is weird; it amounts to — ‘two people who are low in coalition, and getting a flip from this one, the lower one will help me make another read...’ just... what?
This is an unfair categorization of what I said. I discussed this at length with NC, so I welcome you to read through that to fully understand the point I was making. In sum, I was seeing a potential scum pairing between NC and LUV + the result of the LUV lynch would well sort that. Also worth noting that NC was one of my top people in the coalition.


Scum pairings post () is weird; I find it strange that there are only 3 likely pairings kind of?
I almost regret making this post because of how many times people have misinterpreted the point. Read the first sentence of 777. It wasn't meant to be a complete pairings post + shouldn't be treated as such. Question for you -- what pairings would you add or remove? NC added a few near the end of D1.


He also puts a lot of weight on ‘scum will want to make sure it’s 1-in-1-out’; I’m really not sure that scum were explicitly aiming for that; there’s all kinds of WIFOM-traps to fall into there and so I think that a good deal of this analysis is worthless.
Scum should ABSOLUTELY be playing to 1-in/1-out. Assuming they weren't trying to do this is assuming they either don't understand the investigative value of coalition mechanic or they are incompetent. The result is perhaps a bit WIFOMy, but that's no reason to discount their goal of getting 1in/1out.


Maybe argument with RC is +townpoints but... I can see that as fakeable, probably?
Definitely fakeable... but you better believe scum!me appeases RC then just NKs him immediately. (Looking at LUV here)


Uh... I hold by my statement that you’ve dropped off in content, if not in tone; early game there was lots of good stuff going on but lately... mostly by-and-large pointless arguments, honestly.
But you said my early game was surface-level, albeit active. If I've dropped off from early game, do you mean that I haven't maintained the surface-level comments or that I've dropped even below that?
By arguments, I believe you're referring to the one with RCMA and NC. I agree that the first may have been pointless, but I believe the second (and @NC, correct me if I'm wrong) helped NC and I sort our respective townreads of one another.

[...]
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Post Post #1056 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:09 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

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Post Post #1057 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:58 am

Post by NC 39 »

Spoiler:
In post 1050, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1035, EspressoPatronum wrote:@NC you haven't mentioned your read of Spangled since the ~500s, so a strong TR on him came as a bit of surprise. Can you give us an updated reads list?
In post 1041, NC 39 wrote:
In post 860, NC 39 wrote:
In post 663, NC 39 wrote:
In post 657, Hectic wrote:HURT: ALL
HEAL: Hectic, NC 39, Espresso, LUV, RCMA
will sub myself out for Gamma if required
What are you doing?
Why not
Alchemist or
Spangled?
@Espresso
Once again: @Espresso. Is RC’s selective amnesia catching or what?

Yes, you’re probably going to think I reacted strongly but I tend to get somewhat irritated when It’s clear to me I’ve made something blatantly obvious and continue to be questioned on it.
I do think you're reacting strongly, but that's consistent with before, so I'm not reading into it.

The post you quoted is from 650ish + the post by me said 500ish. It's not super far off considering we're in the thousands now. Your "@Espresso" in the 800s was related to your Alchemist read, so it's reasonable to assume you weren't quoting it to show me your Spangled read.

All that to show it's reasonable that I didn't misinterpret your posts. You ended up giving your updated reads, so I'm happy either way.


True but I still think you’re missing the point that you were wrong that my current Spangled tr came out of nowhere. That’s why I posted this.
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Post Post #1058 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:11 am

Post by NC 39 »

In post 1052, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1040, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1037, Gamma Emerald wrote:Thinking for a little bit my early sense is it means scum might be in some of the middling reads outside the coalition? I recall Hectic being rather SR, Spangled was back and forth, and YAG I think was on the table for some but not really strong as anything. I think YAG is a decent push, Spangled a little less. There's also a question of who they can be scum with. I'll probably lynch in the coalition today but I'll use this logic to decide whom.
With RC being so wrong about Alchemist, it’s only strengthened my already strong tr on Spangled. Had Alchemist actually flipped scum, I would be a lot more likely to reconsider that slot but I’m going to go with my gut, like I wish I had done with Alchemist and rn, my gut is telling me he’s probably town and only way I’d even consider Spangled attp is if we get to LYLO and Hectic and GREAT have both flipped town.

If anyone thinks I’m not seeing something wrt to Spangled, let me know but I feel pretty good about this read.

Remember SC 2, I had Taly as a hard gut townlock and therefore also tr Creature because of it? Nobody listened to me because I couldn’t explain it but I just knew, like I knew Maria was 99.9999% flipping town in DnD. Unfortunately, I couldn’t get anyone to listen to me because I suck at the whole charisma thing. And I unfortunately tend to doubt myself when extremely confident players like RC are 100% convinced of their reads. I do sometimes have bad reads but rarely when they’re gutbased. I’m still mad at myself that I ignored my strong town gutread on Alchemist. I’m not making that mistake again, especially not in this game.
I'm with you on Spangled being hard town at the beginning, but I'm not as confident in him now. I'm feel good about you being town, so can you work with me by engaging in the following:

Assume for a moment that you're in my pov and you know you're town. Do Spangled's posts on you (read:EP) look like scum positioning or town game solving?


I'm pretty convinced he's scum who's been slowly trying to dial back his townread on me to open up mislynch targets
, but I'd like another opinion.
POV? I think you mean POE? Considering he’s not in coalition, why would he do this unless you think he’s protecting his buddy?

Your post somewhat concerns me because we have had only one flip inside the coalition, so shouldn’t he be re-evaluating his reads?

Do you view that as him pushing you? I mean he even disputed LUV’s read on you.
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Post Post #1059 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:13 am

Post by NC 39 »

In post 1048, Spangled wrote:
In post 1046, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:All I have so far is EP’s thoughts on the night kill feel super fake to me.
I didn’t really feel that; what makes you say that?
@Espresso, how are you viewing this as him lining up “mislynches”?
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Post Post #1060 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:17 am

Post by NC 39 »

Spoiler:
In post 1055, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1049, Spangled wrote: I’ll probably revisit these thoughts and I
need
people to talk to me about them, but for now, here they are. Still not so sure what my read is; I need people to talk to me. I need it so much you would not believe; sorting EP properly will be critical to win this
Happy to oblige. My comments will be in this colour

PROMISED THOUGHTS ON EP
Early game: good; stuff like and and and .
Lots of it... seems very surface level? But early game that’s all you can do, really.
I actually thought the Hectic thing was a decent catch. I don't think many others were in a position to make that observation.

Lots of questions.
Haha, I do what I can.

: I like the reconsideration but it’s kind of when other people were starting to re-townread me I think, so ??

Tone still a bit weird, but if no one else is seeing that it’s probably not worth anything...?
This was killing me so much that I had to make a second post about it, lol. I didn't even read the second half of the sentence though, so perhaps my tone post is a little overboard

Uh... progression on Gamma is... almost nonexistent? Despite voting them near EoD1. I don’t like how it happens; it’s a consensus that’s built and he just accepts it as status quo; no apparent thought process just ‘others have called this person maybe-not-town; that seems like a good lynch to make’. I don’t like it.
I can't remember the context of my Gamma read, but I'm willing to bet it's because of his meta. Remind me later if this is still bugging you + I'll go back and look at it


is weird; it amounts to — ‘two people who are low in coalition, and getting a flip from this one, the lower one will help me make another read...’ just... what?
This is an unfair categorization of what I said. I discussed this at length with NC, so I welcome you to read through that to fully understand the point I was making. In sum, I was seeing a potential scum pairing between NC and LUV + the result of the LUV lynch would well sort that. Also worth noting that NC was one of my top people in the coalition.


Scum pairings post () is weird; I find it strange that there are only 3 likely pairings kind of?
I almost regret making this post because of how many times people have misinterpreted the point. Read the first sentence of 777. It wasn't meant to be a complete pairings post + shouldn't be treated as such. Question for you -- what pairings would you add or remove? NC added a few near the end of D1.


He also puts a lot of weight on ‘scum will want to make sure it’s 1-in-1-out’; I’m really not sure that scum were explicitly aiming for that; there’s all kinds of WIFOM-traps to fall into there and so I think that a good deal of this analysis is worthless.
Scum should ABSOLUTELY be playing to 1-in/1-out. Assuming they weren't trying to do this is assuming they either don't understand the investigative value of coalition mechanic or they are incompetent. The result is perhaps a bit WIFOMy, but that's no reason to discount their goal of getting 1in/1out.


Maybe argument with RC is +townpoints but... I can see that as fakeable, probably?
Definitely fakeable... but you better believe scum!me appeases RC then just NKs him immediately. (Looking at LUV here)


Uh... I hold by my statement that you’ve dropped off in content, if not in tone; early game there was lots of good stuff going on but lately... mostly by-and-large pointless arguments, honestly.
But you said my early game was surface-level, albeit active. If I've dropped off from early game, do you mean that I haven't maintained the surface-level comments or that I've dropped even below that?
By arguments, I believe you're referring to the one with RCMA and NC. I agree that the first may have been pointless, but I believe the second (and @NC, correct me if I'm wrong) helped NC and I sort our respective townreads of one another.

[...]


I can’t read this on MafSilver
. :cry:

Please use a darker font, tia.
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Post Post #1061 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:18 am

Post by NC 39 »

In post 1056, Gamma Emerald wrote:
VLA For like 2 weeks, just got a concussion yesterday and need to do a brain break which includes reduced screentime
I hope you’re alright. You should probably see a doctor. Concussions are very serious matters.
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Post Post #1062 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:19 am

Post by NC 39 »

In post 1061, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1056, Gamma Emerald wrote:
VLA For like 2 weeks, just got a concussion yesterday and need to do a brain break which includes reduced screentime
I hope you’re alright. You should probably see a doctor. Concussions are very serious matters.
Have you had a doctor check you out? Your health of course, should always come before any game.
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Post Post #1063 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:39 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 1062, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1061, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1056, Gamma Emerald wrote:
VLA For like 2 weeks, just got a concussion yesterday and need to do a brain break which includes reduced screentime
I hope you’re alright. You should probably see a doctor. Concussions are very serious matters.
Have you had a doctor check you out? Your health of course, should always come before any game.
I went to the hospital last night, I have numerous injuries but the concussion is relevant to my VLA
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Post Post #1064 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:47 am

Post by NC 39 »

In post 1063, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 1062, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1061, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1056, Gamma Emerald wrote:
VLA For like 2 weeks, just got a concussion yesterday and need to do a brain break which includes reduced screentime
I hope you’re alright. You should probably see a doctor. Concussions are very serious matters.
Have you had a doctor check you out? Your health of course, should always come before any game.
I went to the hospital last night, I have numerous injuries but the concussion is relevant to my VLA
Holy shit! Well, you should take it easy then. I’m sure Sky will cut you some slack. Sky is the best. <3
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Post Post #1065 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:55 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

Pov = point of view.

Can't address the rest until a bit later.
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Post Post #1066 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:00 am

Post by NC 39 »

Oh okay, usually you say fmpov, I think that’s why I got confused.

Well, I always tend to be suspicious of anyone I perceive might be pushing me but do you really think that’s what he’s doing here?

His reaction to LUV would suggest otherwise.
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Post Post #1067 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:51 am

Post by Spangled »

Spoiler: EP’s RESPONSE TO MY THOUGHTS ON HIM
In post 1055, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1049, Spangled wrote: I’ll probably revisit these thoughts and I
need
people to talk to me about them, but for now, here they are. Still not so sure what my read is; I need people to talk to me. I need it so much you would not believe; sorting EP properly will be critical to win this
Happy to oblige. My comments will be in this colour

PROMISED THOUGHTS ON EP
Early game: good; stuff like and and and .
Lots of it... seems very surface level? But early game that’s all you can do, really.
I actually thought the Hectic thing was a decent catch. I don't think many others were in a position to make that observation.

Lots of questions.
Haha, I do what I can.

: I like the reconsideration but it’s kind of when other people were starting to re-townread me I think, so ??

Tone still a bit weird, but if no one else is seeing that it’s probably not worth anything...?
This was killing me so much that I had to make a second post about it, lol. I didn't even read the second half of the sentence though, so perhaps my tone post is a little overboard

Uh... progression on Gamma is... almost nonexistent? Despite voting them near EoD1. I don’t like how it happens; it’s a consensus that’s built and he just accepts it as status quo; no apparent thought process just ‘others have called this person maybe-not-town; that seems like a good lynch to make’. I don’t like it.
I can't remember the context of my Gamma read, but I'm willing to bet it's because of his meta. Remind me later if this is still bugging you + I'll go back and look at it


is weird; it amounts to — ‘two people who are low in coalition, and getting a flip from this one, the lower one will help me make another read...’ just... what?
This is an unfair categorization of what I said. I discussed this at length with NC, so I welcome you to read through that to fully understand the point I was making. In sum, I was seeing a potential scum pairing between NC and LUV + the result of the LUV lynch would well sort that. Also worth noting that NC was one of my top people in the coalition.


Scum pairings post () is weird; I find it strange that there are only 3 likely pairings kind of?
I almost regret making this post because of how many times people have misinterpreted the point. Read the first sentence of 777. It wasn't meant to be a complete pairings post + shouldn't be treated as such. Question for you -- what pairings would you add or remove? NC added a few near the end of D1.


He also puts a lot of weight on ‘scum will want to make sure it’s 1-in-1-out’; I’m really not sure that scum were explicitly aiming for that; there’s all kinds of WIFOM-traps to fall into there and so I think that a good deal of this analysis is worthless.
Scum should ABSOLUTELY be playing to 1-in/1-out. Assuming they weren't trying to do this is assuming they either don't understand the investigative value of coalition mechanic or they are incompetent. The result is perhaps a bit WIFOMy, but that's no reason to discount their goal of getting 1in/1out.


Maybe argument with RC is +townpoints but... I can see that as fakeable, probably?
Definitely fakeable... but you better believe scum!me appeases RC then just NKs him immediately. (Looking at LUV here)


Uh... I hold by my statement that you’ve dropped off in content, if not in tone; early game there was lots of good stuff going on but lately... mostly by-and-large pointless arguments, honestly.
But you said my early game was surface-level, albeit active. If I've dropped off from early game, do you mean that I haven't maintained the surface-level comments or that I've dropped even below that?
By arguments, I believe you're referring to the one with RCMA and NC. I agree that the first may have been pointless, but I believe the second (and @NC, correct me if I'm wrong) helped NC and I sort our respective townreads of one another.

[...]

@EP
My biggest problem with the 1-in-1-out thing is this: the only investigational value the coalition holds assumes 1-in-1-out; if both are in a lot of that investigational value is gone. If I was scum playing this game, I don’t think I’d mind whether we were 1-in or 2-in, so long as someone was. Because as soon as we’ve lynched one scum in the coalition, if we assume 1-1 and turn away from lynching in-coalition (especially if partner busses well) then we might easily miss scum if it’s 2-0. Unless there is more investigational value regardless of where scum are/aimed to go for...?

Also, I think we have different expectations of content. Actually, reading my ISO, I’m definitely not imposing the standards I’m imposing on you here on me. And not all of that early stuff was surface level; that was tired-brain-thinking; the thoughts on Hectic are not surface level, for example.

Also, as regards the LUV thing... I still find it strange there was no case there; an info-lynch — which was what, in that post, you were characterising it as, at least to me — is just not good for town. Mostly I want to know — did you think LUV was scum, at that point?
Because
that
would be a reason to lynch him.

I did not realise that you and NC were better sorting each other by that. To me it did not help, but if it helped you two, fair enough.

As to the scum pairings... it was unfair of me to assume it was completed; I see now rereading that you even said that it was not complete. As to actual pairings... I don’t see any reason to assume 1-in-1-out, so I don’t know. Might trying re-reading those sections to get a sense of how it all played out again, but I think pre-scumflip, trying to get assocs like this will be very difficult.

I would like you to revisit your small-push on Gamma; the way in which it happened it is still bugging me.

And as to the point about the tone — noted.

@NC 39
Would it be too much to ask for your full, detailed read on EP?
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Post Post #1068 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:52 am

Post by Spangled »

In post 1063, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 1062, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1061, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1056, Gamma Emerald wrote:
VLA For like 2 weeks, just got a concussion yesterday and need to do a brain break which includes reduced screentime
I hope you’re alright. You should probably see a doctor. Concussions are very serious matters.
Have you had a doctor check you out? Your health of course, should always come before any game.
I went to the hospital last night, I have numerous injuries but the concussion is relevant to my VLA
Woah, dude. Please do your best to take it easy here on out.
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Post Post #1069 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:20 am

Post by EspressoPatronum »

Spoiler:
In post 1057, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1050, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1035, EspressoPatronum wrote:@NC you haven't mentioned your read of Spangled since the ~500s, so a strong TR on him came as a bit of surprise. Can you give us an updated reads list?
In post 1041, NC 39 wrote:
In post 860, NC 39 wrote:
In post 663, NC 39 wrote:
In post 657, Hectic wrote:HURT: ALL
HEAL: Hectic, NC 39, Espresso, LUV, RCMA
will sub myself out for Gamma if required
What are you doing?
Why not
Alchemist or
Spangled?
@Espresso
Once again: @Espresso. Is RC’s selective amnesia catching or what?

Yes, you’re probably going to think I reacted strongly but I tend to get somewhat irritated when It’s clear to me I’ve made something blatantly obvious and continue to be questioned on it.
I do think you're reacting strongly, but that's consistent with before, so I'm not reading into it.

The post you quoted is from 650ish + the post by me said 500ish. It's not super far off considering we're in the thousands now. Your "@Espresso" in the 800s was related to your Alchemist read, so it's reasonable to assume you weren't quoting it to show me your Spangled read.

All that to show it's reasonable that I didn't misinterpret your posts. You ended up giving your updated reads, so I'm happy either way.
True but I still think you’re missing the point that you were wrong that my current Spangled tr came out of nowhere. That’s why I posted this.

I worry that we're about to descend into semantics again, but I'll go for it anyway.

I did not say your townread of Spangled came out of nowhere. I said your
strong
townread of Spangled came as a surprise bcz you hadn't mentioned it in ~500 posts.

That is me acknowledging you made the read (i.e. that it wasn't out of nowhere), but that a
strong
TR is surprising given the lack of
recent
mention.
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Post Post #1070 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:12 pm

Post by NC 39 »

In post 1067, Spangled wrote:
Spoiler: EP’s RESPONSE TO MY THOUGHTS ON HIM
In post 1055, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1049, Spangled wrote: I’ll probably revisit these thoughts and I
need
people to talk to me about them, but for now, here they are. Still not so sure what my read is; I need people to talk to me. I need it so much you would not believe; sorting EP properly will be critical to win this
Happy to oblige. My comments will be in this colour

PROMISED THOUGHTS ON EP
Early game: good; stuff like and and and .
Lots of it... seems very surface level? But early game that’s all you can do, really.
I actually thought the Hectic thing was a decent catch. I don't think many others were in a position to make that observation.

Lots of questions.
Haha, I do what I can.

: I like the reconsideration but it’s kind of when other people were starting to re-townread me I think, so ??

Tone still a bit weird, but if no one else is seeing that it’s probably not worth anything...?
This was killing me so much that I had to make a second post about it, lol. I didn't even read the second half of the sentence though, so perhaps my tone post is a little overboard

Uh... progression on Gamma is... almost nonexistent? Despite voting them near EoD1. I don’t like how it happens; it’s a consensus that’s built and he just accepts it as status quo; no apparent thought process just ‘others have called this person maybe-not-town; that seems like a good lynch to make’. I don’t like it.
I can't remember the context of my Gamma read, but I'm willing to bet it's because of his meta. Remind me later if this is still bugging you + I'll go back and look at it


is weird; it amounts to — ‘two people who are low in coalition, and getting a flip from this one, the lower one will help me make another read...’ just... what?
This is an unfair categorization of what I said. I discussed this at length with NC, so I welcome you to read through that to fully understand the point I was making. In sum, I was seeing a potential scum pairing between NC and LUV + the result of the LUV lynch would well sort that. Also worth noting that NC was one of my top people in the coalition.


Scum pairings post () is weird; I find it strange that there are only 3 likely pairings kind of?
I almost regret making this post because of how many times people have misinterpreted the point. Read the first sentence of 777. It wasn't meant to be a complete pairings post + shouldn't be treated as such. Question for you -- what pairings would you add or remove? NC added a few near the end of D1.


He also puts a lot of weight on ‘scum will want to make sure it’s 1-in-1-out’; I’m really not sure that scum were explicitly aiming for that; there’s all kinds of WIFOM-traps to fall into there and so I think that a good deal of this analysis is worthless.
Scum should ABSOLUTELY be playing to 1-in/1-out. Assuming they weren't trying to do this is assuming they either don't understand the investigative value of coalition mechanic or they are incompetent. The result is perhaps a bit WIFOMy, but that's no reason to discount their goal of getting 1in/1out.


Maybe argument with RC is +townpoints but... I can see that as fakeable, probably?
Definitely fakeable... but you better believe scum!me appeases RC then just NKs him immediately. (Looking at LUV here)


Uh... I hold by my statement that you’ve dropped off in content, if not in tone; early game there was lots of good stuff going on but lately... mostly by-and-large pointless arguments, honestly.
But you said my early game was surface-level, albeit active. If I've dropped off from early game, do you mean that I haven't maintained the surface-level comments or that I've dropped even below that?
By arguments, I believe you're referring to the one with RCMA and NC. I agree that the first may have been pointless, but I believe the second (and @NC, correct me if I'm wrong) helped NC and I sort our respective townreads of one another.

[...]

@EP
My biggest problem with the 1-in-1-out thing is this: the only investigational value the coalition holds assumes 1-in-1-out; if both are in a lot of that investigational value is gone. If I was scum playing this game, I don’t think I’d mind whether we were 1-in or 2-in, so long as someone was. Because as soon as we’ve lynched one scum in the coalition, if we assume 1-1 and turn away from lynching in-coalition (especially if partner busses well) then we might easily miss scum if it’s 2-0. Unless there is more investigational value regardless of where scum are/aimed to go for...?

Also, I think we have different expectations of content. Actually, reading my ISO, I’m definitely not imposing the standards I’m imposing on you here on me. And not all of that early stuff was surface level; that was tired-brain-thinking; the thoughts on Hectic are not surface level, for example.

Also, as regards the LUV thing... I still find it strange there was no case there; an info-lynch — which was what, in that post, you were characterising it as, at least to me — is just not good for town. Mostly I want to know — did you think LUV was scum, at that point?
Because
that
would be a reason to lynch him.

I did not realise that you and NC were better sorting each other by that. To me it did not help, but if it helped you two, fair enough.

As to the scum pairings... it was unfair of me to assume it was completed; I see now rereading that you even said that it was not complete. As to actual pairings... I don’t see any reason to assume 1-in-1-out, so I don’t know. Might trying re-reading those sections to get a sense of how it all played out again, but I think pre-scumflip, trying to get assocs like this will be very difficult.

I would like you to revisit your small-push on Gamma; the way in which it happened it is still bugging me.

And as to the point about the tone — noted.

@NC 39
Would it be too much to ask for your full, detailed read on EP?
I will do my level best to comment on this but I already asked him to redo it in darker font. It isn’t showing up for me.

It’s s really frustrating to me that the two players most strongly sr Espresso are pretty much lurksacks and GREAT hasn’t even shown up yet.
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Post Post #1071 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:19 pm

Post by NC 39 »

Spoiler:
quote="In post 1069, EspressoPatronum"]
Spoiler:
In post 1057, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1050, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1035, EspressoPatronum wrote:@NC you haven't mentioned your read of Spangled since the ~500s, so a strong TR on him came as a bit of surprise. Can you give us an updated reads list?
In post 1041, NC 39 wrote:
In post 860, NC 39 wrote:
In post 663, NC 39 wrote:
In post 657, Hectic wrote:HURT: ALL
HEAL: Hectic, NC 39, Espresso, LUV, RCMA
will sub myself out for Gamma if required
What are you doing?
Why not
Alchemist or
Spangled?
@Espresso
Once again: @Espresso. Is RC’s selective amnesia catching or what?

Yes, you’re probably going to think I reacted strongly but I tend to get somewhat irritated when It’s clear to me I’ve made something blatantly obvious and continue to be questioned on it.
I do think you're reacting strongly, but that's consistent with before, so I'm not reading into it.

The post you quoted is from 650ish + the post by me said 500ish. It's not super far off considering we're in the thousands now. Your "@Espresso" in the 800s was related to your Alchemist read, so it's reasonable to assume you weren't quoting it to show me your Spangled read.

All that to show it's reasonable that I didn't misinterpret your posts. You ended up giving your updated reads, so I'm happy either way.
True but I still think you’re missing the point that you were wrong that my current Spangled tr came out of nowhere. That’s why I posted this.

I worry that we're about to descend into semantics again, but I'll go for it anyway.

I did not say your townread of Spangled came out of nowhere. I said your
strong
townread of Spangled came as a surprise bcz you hadn't mentioned it in ~500 posts.

That is me acknowledging you made the read (i.e. that it wasn't out of nowhere), but that a
strong
TR is surprising given the lack of
recent
mention.[/quote]


Have I said anything to indicate my read on him had changed since then? If not, then why do you think my not mentioning a read that hasn’t changed, is even worth commenting on? I only comment now, because prior to Alchemist flip, I had some low level paranoia but now knowing that RC was wrong on Alchemist, makes me think he was also wrong on Spangled. That’s pretty much the only reason I mentioned it, because RC had me questioning everything briefly.
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Post Post #1072 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:27 pm

Post by NC 39 »

In post 1070, NC 39 wrote:
In post 1067, Spangled wrote:
Spoiler: EP’s RESPONSE TO MY THOUGHTS ON HIM
In post 1055, EspressoPatronum wrote:
In post 1049, Spangled wrote: I’ll probably revisit these thoughts and I
need
people to talk to me about them, but for now, here they are. Still not so sure what my read is; I need people to talk to me. I need it so much you would not believe; sorting EP properly will be critical to win this
Happy to oblige. My comments will be in this colour

PROMISED THOUGHTS ON EP
Early game: good; stuff like and and and .
Lots of it... seems very surface level? But early game that’s all you can do, really.
I actually thought the Hectic thing was a decent catch. I don't think many others were in a position to make that observation.

Lots of questions.
Haha, I do what I can.

: I like the reconsideration but it’s kind of when other people were starting to re-townread me I think, so ??

Tone still a bit weird, but if no one else is seeing that it’s probably not worth anything...?
This was killing me so much that I had to make a second post about it, lol. I didn't even read the second half of the sentence though, so perhaps my tone post is a little overboard

Uh... progression on Gamma is... almost nonexistent? Despite voting them near EoD1. I don’t like how it happens; it’s a consensus that’s built and he just accepts it as status quo; no apparent thought process just ‘others have called this person maybe-not-town; that seems like a good lynch to make’. I don’t like it.
I can't remember the context of my Gamma read, but I'm willing to bet it's because of his meta. Remind me later if this is still bugging you + I'll go back and look at it


is weird; it amounts to — ‘two people who are low in coalition, and getting a flip from this one, the lower one will help me make another read...’ just... what?
This is an unfair categorization of what I said. I discussed this at length with NC, so I welcome you to read through that to fully understand the point I was making. In sum, I was seeing a potential scum pairing between NC and LUV + the result of the LUV lynch would well sort that. Also worth noting that NC was one of my top people in the coalition.


Scum pairings post () is weird; I find it strange that there are only 3 likely pairings kind of?
I almost regret making this post because of how many times people have misinterpreted the point. Read the first sentence of 777. It wasn't meant to be a complete pairings post + shouldn't be treated as such. Question for you -- what pairings would you add or remove? NC added a few near the end of D1.


He also puts a lot of weight on ‘scum will want to make sure it’s 1-in-1-out’; I’m really not sure that scum were explicitly aiming for that; there’s all kinds of WIFOM-traps to fall into there and so I think that a good deal of this analysis is worthless.
Scum should ABSOLUTELY be playing to 1-in/1-out. Assuming they weren't trying to do this is assuming they either don't understand the investigative value of coalition mechanic or they are incompetent. The result is perhaps a bit WIFOMy, but that's no reason to discount their goal of getting 1in/1out.


Maybe argument with RC is +townpoints but... I can see that as fakeable, probably?
Definitely fakeable... but you better believe scum!me appeases RC then just NKs him immediately. (Looking at LUV here)


Uh... I hold by my statement that you’ve dropped off in content, if not in tone; early game there was lots of good stuff going on but lately... mostly by-and-large pointless arguments, honestly.
But you said my early game was surface-level, albeit active. If I've dropped off from early game, do you mean that I haven't maintained the surface-level comments or that I've dropped even below that?
By arguments, I believe you're referring to the one with RCMA and NC. I agree that the first may have been pointless, but I believe the second (and @NC, correct me if I'm wrong) helped NC and I sort our respective townreads of one another.

[...]

@EP
My biggest problem with the 1-in-1-out thing is this: the only investigational value the coalition holds assumes 1-in-1-out; if both are in a lot of that investigational value is gone. If I was scum playing this game, I don’t think I’d mind whether we were 1-in or 2-in, so long as someone was. Because as soon as we’ve lynched one scum in the coalition, if we assume 1-1 and turn away from lynching in-coalition (especially if partner busses well) then we might easily miss scum if it’s 2-0. Unless there is more investigational value regardless of where scum are/aimed to go for...?

Also, I think we have different expectations of content. Actually, reading my ISO, I’m definitely not imposing the standards I’m imposing on you here on me. And not all of that early stuff was surface level; that was tired-brain-thinking; the thoughts on Hectic are not surface level, for example.

Also, as regards the LUV thing... I still find it strange there was no case there; an info-lynch — which was what, in that post, you were characterising it as, at least to me — is just not good for town. Mostly I want to know — did you think LUV was scum, at that point?
Because
that
would be a reason to lynch him.

I did not realise that you and NC were better sorting each other by that. To me it did not help, but if it helped you two, fair enough.

As to the scum pairings... it was unfair of me to assume it was completed; I see now rereading that you even said that it was not complete. As to actual pairings... I don’t see any reason to assume 1-in-1-out, so I don’t know. Might trying re-reading those sections to get a sense of how it all played out again, but I think pre-scumflip, trying to get assocs like this will be very difficult.

I would like you to revisit your small-push on Gamma; the way in which it happened it is still bugging me.

And as to the point about the tone — noted.

@NC 39
Would it be too much to ask for your full, detailed read on EP?
I will do my level best to comment on this but I already asked him to redo it in darker font. It isn’t showing up for me.

It’s s really frustrating to me that the two players most strongly sr Espresso are pretty much lurksacks and GREAT hasn’t even shown up yet.
As for this post, I’m having a bit of trouble understanding exactly what you mean. While scum could of course just be doing WIFOM, I can definitely see merit in trying to gage possible info from that.

What “small push” on Gamma”? I must have missed it?

I don’t know if we are really better at sorting each other. We are still not in sync, I think.
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Post Post #1073 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:33 pm

Post by EspressoPatronum »

@NC
1. I use dark mode, so the green is easy to read. If you're having trouble with it, try highlighting all of it. I'll use a more neutral colour in the future.

2. You're right about that one Spangled quote. I might be wrong + he may not be positioning on me. I'll reconsider his ISO.

3. I just assume reads change over time. If I don't hear about one in a long time, I assume it isn't the same. Asking about it ensures scum can't be complacent and ride off of strong early reads.
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Post Post #1074 (ISO) » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:33 pm

Post by EspressoPatronum »

Fwiw I'm almost 100% lynching LUV today.

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