Micro 892: TemporalLich's Micro Normal [Game Over]

[Menalque]

(1) do you mean 245 because I'm p sure that I literally did

(2) because I was rushing to have dinner and couldn't be fucked to edit the post, also because "barely decipherable" was such a blatant lie that I wanted to quote it to show how you're sensationalising things to try and make me look bad

(3) I literally address why this is scummy despite you claiming "policy lynch". it's there. in the post. use your eyes.

(4) I appreciate you admitting that you're lying by the fact that you know there's literally nothing you can say that doesn't make your representation of my chem read false. I further appreciate you not even trying to do so because you know that it would make it even more obvious that you were lying.

anyone in doubt:

dong 440 : "since [mena] was townleaning [chem] with zero explanation on [mena's] side"

mena 297 : "honestly, my chem townlean before the associationals from dong which is now prob the larger part was basically from 101 and 197"

[Menalque]

@Bella here is the rough bullet point version:

- dong instantly starts trying to discredit me the moment I put a vote on him
- dong consistently avoids actually engaging with content while making excuses about how it's filled with traps for him should he try to engage
- dong also claims that my content is void, and refuses to even point out the various obvious traps that are mentioned
- dong regularly misreps me throughout the thread by leaving out context
- dong lies about being a mason with icon
- dong self votes
- dong LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON WITH ICON
- dong makes some bullshit argument about how he should be let live until tomorrow because iMpOrtAnT rOle StUFf
- dong again, outright lies by saying that I didn't explain my chem progression
- DONG LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON

at the very best, his play is anti-town because he's straight up lied more than once in thread. at the far more probable worst, he's scum who is deliberately lying to both try and avoid being lynched and to set the mislynch on me because it's p much the only option he has here now

if you think all that comes from town then okay I'm just done with this game

but will keep trying because, again, dong is scum and if we lynch him this game is borderline won for town

[Donempire]

dong 440 : "since [mena] was townleaning [chem] with zero explanation on [mena's] side"

mena 297 : "honestly, my chem townlean before the associationals from dong which is now prob the larger part was basically from 101 and 197"

Oh my, were still on this. Alright, alfred, pull up my post once more.

His reads besides me arent consistent either. It seems like hes so tunneled on me that he forgot he had to have other reads too. Chemist read for example seems to have taken a complete 180 ever since he was "townleaning" him with zero explanation on his side.

Now to your credit there is a mistake here. However it isnt what you think it is.
When reading your post 293 i thought that you went back to scumreading chemist - a point that i see was wrong going back and rereading. There are a few reasons why i thought that, namely the last paraghraph, but now i see what you meant there.
However the point you're harping on about, the "i explained the townleaning part"... yes?
You know how i mention that you turned a 180 - that was to say that you went back to scumreading him. I know that your townleaning has, if very thin, reasoning. However my point there was that you turned 180 degress "with no explanation."
Heres the full sentence for you:
"Chemist read for example

seems to have taken a complete 180 ever since he was "townleaning" him with zero explanation on his side

."
I dont know how you took it, but i wrote it as " he used to townlean, now it took a complete 180 with no explanation."

[Klick]

I mean yes, you have pinpointed my exact frustrations about the Dong/Menalque debacle. They're both arguing about things that are ultimately pointless and either NAI or even more likely to come from town than scum. But in the thought experiment where we're forced to assume one of them is scum, it'd be Menalque over Dong.
I think Menalque is just (understandably) frustrated that Dong is getting away with the shit he's getting away with, and it's frazzling him and putting him off his game.

(@Datisi/Icon)

I'm drawing heavy comparisons between Menalque/Dong here and Luca/Tchill from last game (and it also feels a bit similar to the argument Icon and I had early D2 when I felt his actions were unjustifiable from a town perspective).

I still think you!scum benefits massively from the huge distraction that is the Dong/Menalque argument, especially since you were getting some minor pressure earlier in the Day.

I wouldn't consider Vex relatively

un

lynchable. Vex having zero votes on him isn't that relevant - no one had votes on them except Dong, Menalque, and Chemist himself. I've shown willingness to vote the Vex slot and no one has really expressed a townread there.

Expand on your last point. And also on your read on me in general.

PEdit: that list sure does contain a lot of anti-town things. I've (unfortunately) seen town do many of those things. Hell, last game town-Tchill fake-claimed Tracker in Lylo to spite town-Icon fake-claiming Cop earlier in the game.

Menalque, the problem is that in an ideal world, the things you're saying Dong is scum for should be scumtells. But on forum dot mafiascum dot net, some of those things are far more likely to come from town with specific personality types instead of scum.

[Bellaphant]

Apart from the pressure (I don't think I was ever in lynch zone once I started 121 with locke and dong) early day, what you've said is true for any!scum..or even both!mena-dong!scum shifting up the thread.

Not unlynchable, sure, but not today - I don't see the point in town lynching a slot with less content/associayives over one with more. And that was my.point - you saying it was a reasonable response to 'panic lynch' that slot seems fake/untrue, for those reasons.

In your thought experiment, agree it's mena - I totally get the fake claiming masons to defend a strong tr in a PT. As you said, we've seen worse fake claims. And worse town! play
My last point is just ... I guess I'm surprised by how much I've followed your thought process this game and am stuck between 'that means he's town' or it just means 'hes reasonable'. I think it also means that when you do think differently (like, legit that post from chemist was shit, his content isn't great and you've kinda backed away from a lunch on him without me being able to really pinpoint -why-) it rings alarm bells.

In the thought experiment where men's/dong is that, and icon is town (which is kinda a lock, right?) And I tr locke and datisi,my Poe pool becomes tiny. I've thought myself in a loop and I'm back to the heaven/ chemist slots, which feels like a step back

[Bellaphant]

Basically, I want a lynch, for everyone's hinted 'miracle' night actions to give some clarity while I reread while the site loads.

[Chemist1422]

Site’s running unbearably slow for me

Will see if it’s better when I get home

[Datisi]

(@Datisi/Icon)

I'm drawing heavy comparisons between Menalque/Dong here and Luca/Tchill from last game (and it also feels a bit similar to the argument Icon and I had early D2 when I felt his actions were unjustifiable from a town perspective).

Don't remind me, I've been trying to repress that game from my memory...

I can't remember exactly (and maybe I wasn't actually reading carefully oops), what's the comparison? Other than the obvious "argument that keeps on going".

Was your and Icon's argument about him fakeclaiming Cop? (I'd go check, but MS machine is broke.) If so, I feel like there's a difference between fakeclaiming Cop when you're a Loyal Mailman (which is basically a stronger, more flavorful Cop) and fakeclaiming Masons when you're not a Mason, then claiming some mysterious role things that justify it.

PEdit: that list sure does contain a lot of anti-town things. I've (unfortunately) seen town do many of those things. Hell, last game town-Tchill fake-claimed Tracker in Lylo to spite town-Icon fake-claiming Cop earlier in the game.

Also last game, scum!Gobble claimed that his slot's predecessor fakeclaimed VT when he was a N3 BG.

Sure, some things on Mena's list can come from Town. But shit, I've lost enough games where scum did some obviously scummy things for Town to then completely ignore it because "personality", "scum wouldn't do that" or whatever.

[Datisi]

also same, took an unfun time for the post to go through

[TemporalLich]

VC 1.10

Dongempire (3) - Datisi, Vex Vience, Menalque

[L-2]

Chemist1422 (2) - Locke113, Bellaphant
Menalque (2) - Iconeum, Dongempire
Vex Vience (1) - Chemist1422

Not voting: Klick

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2019-10-02 15:00:00) or when a lynch is reached.

Menalque is V/LA until Wednesday evening.

[Menalque]

Like, yes, anti-town stuff can come from town. But if you actually think that it’s anti-town you should lynch it every fucking time because it’s going against wincon

Like what, would you be listening to me more this game if I’d just fucking trolled for like 18 pages? Because that’s honestly the impression I’m getting

Who won that game you’re talking about with Luca/tchill btw? Right. Seems like doing blatantly anti-town things crazily seems to correlate with town losing, but somehow those things get a pass if “certain players” do them

[Menalque]

If you’re not gonna vote dong then go ahead and fucking vote me because I’m not backing off it at this point

Then after I flip green you can keep your shitty TR on him because he’s just a certain type of player with a “specific personality type” and go ahead and lose the game

Let’s totally ignore that I’ve got scum right D1 on like 4/5 of my most recent towngames but because I’m not the best at explaining people don’t fucking listen to me. And I tried to adjust for that this game based on feedback from other games but apparently trying to actually explain things doesn’t count for jackshit in this game. Even in the game where I didn’t push scum D1 I was on him early because that’s the game where I talked myself off korina onto mislynch bait

Do you want the others? Got scum skitt + epic creeper D1 in 1951/53 whatever it was

Got pine scum D1 in added to the group chat

Got icon scum D1 in purge

And in my first mini normal (can’t remember the number) I got luv scum on D1

I think I’m missing pfup as it’s my first large game, and obv I’ve missed my scum game but my point is my reads are actually pretty fucking good and constantly get ignored because of a mixture of not really being great at the persuasion part of the game and not having a strong enough reputation to just get sheeped on shit

[Menalque]

So like I said vote me or sheep me but stop beating around the bush

Unless my TR on you is just wrong and you’re trying to keep dong alive which is honestly becoming my pet tinfoil, but then Bella seems to be agreeing with you and I don’t think you’re both scum so what the fuck do I know

[Chemist1422]

Chem
Menal
Datisi
Klick
Bella
Locke
VV

No idea on DE/Icon but I’m tinfoiling that they’re lovers

[Klick]

Apart from the pressure (I don't think I was ever in lynch zone once I started 121 with locke and dong) early day, what you've said is true for any!scum..or even both!mena-dong!scum shifting up the thread.

We've stepped away from my original point.

Dong!town and Mena!town get into a big argument. This puts all the focus on them. In this situation, where are the scum hiding and how are they reacting to this situation?

I posit that scum let the town tear themselves apart. They focus on other topics and give their occasional feedback on the situation, hoping they can get Dong and Menalque to implode with little influence on their part.

Now, who has been playing to that archetype?

Datisi's progression onto the Dong wagon isn't pretty. She goes from feeling Towny about Dong to voting Dong after Dong doesn't answer her question, and after the Mason gambit thing, she places her vote back on Dong. I'm not super convinced Datisi has put much thought into whether Dong is actually scum - her jump onto that wagon feels opportunistic and safe. She fits the bill.
Vox pretty explicitly says he thinks Mena/Dong is TvT and he doesn't want to sort there today. That changes after the Mason claim, but all in all I think his approach to the situation is null.
Locke's content has felt detached from the main narrative of the game because he's been doing recaps page-by-page. He states he's 'not impressed' by either of Mena or Dong, but he feels it's TvT. He goes on to agree with some of Dong's points against Mena and throw a bit of shade there. From the lens of someone taking advantage of the Mena/Dong argument, I think Locke looks bad.
Chemist is an interesting case. From a survivalist standpoint, I don't see why Chemist wouldn't use the Mena/Dong conflict to his advantage? He has thrown shade on Dong occasionally, but he voted Icon when push came to shove (very early in that wagon), and when that didn't seem to be an option he switched to Vex. Chemist actually leans town from this lens.
And Bella, I think your actions make plenty of sense if you're scum watching Dong/Mena implode. You townread both Dong and Mena, but don't put in much work trying to convince either of them they're on the wrong track. You talk about the game as a whole from a more passive standpoint while they continue to spam the thread with their argument. I think as scum, you let the situation play out basically like this.

So yes, I think you, Datisi and Locke all don't look great if you assume Dong and Mena are both town.

Not unlynchable, sure, but not today - I don't see the point in town lynching a slot with less content/associayives over one with more.

If you actually think that, then why is your vote on Chemist?

My last point is just ... I guess I'm surprised by how much I've followed your thought process this game and am stuck between 'that means he's town' or it just means 'hes reasonable'. I think it also means that when you do think differently (like, legit that post from chemist was shit, his content isn't great and you've kinda backed away from a lunch on him without me being able to really pinpoint -why-) it rings alarm bells.

Have I backed away from a lynch on Chemist? Before this post, I mean. It's not a terrible lynch, but I'm questioning whether it's ideal/whether others are more likely to flip scum.

The post you think is scummy by Chemist seems NAI to me on its own. I see 'survivalistic', and I think town!Chemist and scum!Chemist are both survivalistic in this position.

[Klick]

Like, yes, anti-town stuff can come from town. But if you actually think that it’s anti-town you should lynch it every fucking time because it’s going against wincon

Like what, would you be listening to me more this game if I’d just fucking trolled for like 18 pages? Because that’s honestly the impression I’m getting

Who won that game you’re talking about with Luca/tchill btw? Right. Seems like doing blatantly anti-town things crazily seems to correlate with town losing, but somehow those things get a pass if “certain players” do them

I'm not going to go against wincon in this game by voting someone I strongly believe to be town just because they are doing anti-town stuff.
Anti-town stuff comes with the meta these days. You either have to adjust your standards of play or make sure you're playing with people who won't be anti-town.

[Klick]

I can't remember exactly (and maybe I wasn't actually reading carefully oops), what's the comparison? Other than the obvious "argument that keeps on going".

Was your and Icon's argument about him fakeclaiming Cop? (I'd go check, but MS machine is broke.) If so, I feel like there's a difference between fakeclaiming Cop when you're a Loyal Mailman (which is basically a stronger, more flavorful Cop) and fakeclaiming Masons when you're not a Mason, then claiming some mysterious role things that justify it.

Tchill-town and Luca-town get really set in their views. Tchill fakeclaims to get his scumread pushed through(/to spite Icon). Luca is convinced Tchill has to be lying and therefore must be scum, and can't see it any other way, especially since he think LUV has to be town. They go back and forth arguing that the other person is ridiculous until gobble/LUV swoop in for the hammer.

Icon-town and Klick-town get really set in their views. Icon fakeclaims. Klick can't see the town motivation and therefore assumes Icon must be scum. Icon can't see how Klick could come to that conclusion, decides that means Klick must be scum. We go back and forth arguing that the other person is ridiculous until I have reason to question the situation.

Dong and Menalque get really set in their views...

That's the parallel I'm seeing. I think they've both slotted into those positions as stubborn personalities in a way that feels town-indicative.

[Bellaphant]

I see what you mean about datisi, but I think else wise you are being overly blinkered about the approach someone would take to this. I think it's easy to jump on a wagon (probably Dong's) and then if he flips green tomorrow to go 'well, with the nonsense he was spouting, ofc we mislynched.' sadly I think dong is town, and some of his early posting around icon makes sense now. I see where he's coming from even though I don't like it.

You've mentioned chem being survivalist a few times - why are you locked on to this as a narrative?

I do believe my post (nice shade), but i don't think chemist doesn't have -any- content or -any- associayives: a red flip on him gives me info on you and mena, at least. Vox we get nothing from.

I don't know what you think town could do apart from point out that that this seems like a massive miscommunication? Dong self voted, how much do you think they are here for reasonable? The main reason I'm still basically tr-ing mena (BC I have reasons to tr dong outside of this) is how convinced she is she is right. I'm re-reading the whole conversation in iso, and my opinion basically hasn't changed from my initial 'wtf is this' skim read - it's sound and fury Signifying nothing. Dong says my reads list was weak (true). 179 seems to be a misunderstanding of the posts before. I love 194, it reads genuine. A lot of the rest is one of them screaming 'misrep' at each other. Dong comes out of the initial exchange looking townier, but that's how I felt anyway.

Backing away came from 'Chemist/Vex isn't feeling particularly likely at this point based on Chemist's push - I don't think he panic-limps into a wagon on his scumbuddy (and I'm not getting the impression that he's resigned to his own lynch either).

Therefore, I think there's at least one scum in Bella/Datisi/Locke. ', but I think I missed that you meant they didn't seem like a pair, not that you were clearing chem. But I do feel you are soft-defendoing him. Where is your head at with him, then?

(Sorry, some of these points aren't ordered coherently, need a pc)

[Chemist1422]

If you’re not gonna vote dong then go ahead and fucking vote me because I’m not backing off it at this point

Then after I flip green you can keep your shitty TR on him because he’s just a certain type of player with a “specific personality type” and go ahead and lose the game

Let’s totally ignore that I’ve got scum right D1 on like 4/5 of my most recent towngames but because I’m not the best at explaining people don’t fucking listen to me. And I tried to adjust for that this game based on feedback from other games but apparently trying to actually explain things doesn’t count for jackshit in this game. Even in the game where I didn’t push scum D1 I was on him early because that’s the game where I talked myself off korina onto mislynch bait

Do you want the others? Got scum skitt + epic creeper D1 in 1951/53 whatever it was

Got pine scum D1 in added to the group chat

Got icon scum D1 in purge

And in my first mini normal (can’t remember the number) I got luv scum on D1

I think I’m missing pfup as it’s my first large game, and obv I’ve missed my scum game but my point is my reads are actually pretty fucking good and constantly get ignored because of a mixture of not really being great at the persuasion part of the game and not having a strong enough reputation to just get sheeped on shit

For anyone wondering about my Menal top townread it's because of this post, I don't think he uses this to push an agenda through as scum, plus his townread on me felt genuine

[Datisi]

Datisi's progression onto the Dong wagon isn't pretty. She goes from feeling Towny about Dong to voting Dong after Dong doesn't answer her question, and after the Mason gambit thing, she places her vote back on Dong. I'm not super convinced Datisi has put much thought into whether Dong is actually scum - her jump onto that wagon feels opportunistic and safe. She fits the bill.

I was TRing Dong in the first half since I believed that they're Towny, I felt we were thinking similarly on our Icon read and the whole DongvMena thing felt like Town talking past eachother. Dong had been getting worse imo, and when I was trying to interact with them, I felt they were ignoring my questions. Then that Mason/not Mason/basically Mason? thing that is really rubbing me the wrong way came around. And how is that wagon safe? Mena was the only one on it at the time, and a good portion of players seems to believe he's voteworthy.

You either have to adjust your standards of play or make sure you're playing with people who won't be anti-town.

Hnnnng, this logic feels so flawed to me.

[Menalque]

What may or may not be a final readslist depending on whether scum manage to get me through while I’m asleep

Datisi — the only person actually being reasonable about not giving anti-town bullshit a pass
Icon — don’t think scum!icon doesn’t just claim masons with dong
Chem — town by association with dong at this point
Klick — consistently townie but I fucking hate the logic around not lynching players who are anti-town because that’s just part of the meta. I think he genuinely believes it tho, along with that this is TvT but again, given dongs play I’m slightly uncomfortable with the fact that he thinks I’m a better lynch when push comes to shove
VV — prob town but he’s kinda quiet and I do think that scum!him does potentially try to pocket me hard after recent interactions

Locke — could be scum bc he hasn’t done much but more of an outlier than the other tow
Bella — scummy for her positioning around dong/me. Don’t like that she’s echoing klick on stuff, don’t like that she didn’t respond to my bullet point case despite asking for it, don’t like that she’s giving her reason for TRing me as “he seems to believe what he’s saying” — I think it’s hard for scum to vote me in good faith but I think the buddy needs a way to take less heat while still trying to make me happen. Saying they TR me for something that’s NAI seems like a good way of doing that
Dong — res ipsa loquitor

[Chemist1422]

VOTE: DE

L-1

[Donempire]

If you’re not gonna vote dong then go ahead and fucking vote me because I’m not backing off it at this point

Then after I flip green you can keep your shitty TR on him because he’s just a certain type of player with a “specific personality type” and go ahead and lose the game

Let’s totally ignore that I’ve got scum right D1 on like 4/5 of my most recent towngames but because I’m not the best at explaining people don’t fucking listen to me. And I tried to adjust for that this game based on feedback from other games but apparently trying to actually explain things doesn’t count for jackshit in this game. Even in the game where I didn’t push scum D1 I was on him early because that’s the game where I talked myself off korina onto mislynch bait

Do you want the others? Got scum skitt + epic creeper D1 in 1951/53 whatever it was

Got pine scum D1 in added to the group chat

Got icon scum D1 in purge

And in my first mini normal (can’t remember the number) I got luv scum on D1

I think I’m missing pfup as it’s my first large game, and obv I’ve missed my scum game but my point is my reads are actually pretty fucking good and constantly get ignored because of a mixture of not really being great at the persuasion part of the game and not having a strong enough reputation to just get sheeped on shit

You may remember all your achievements but frankly, i only remember the ones where i didnt steamroll scum. Those are much more far in between.

The appeal to emotion is blatantly obvious. Thing is this speaks volumes that you ran out of arguments to make here.

By the way for clarity, i've played with only one player before in this game and thats ico. Regarding reputation im not infamous or famous enough to even be greeted by anyone. You are projecting your own failings into me having to have a strong reputation, but this game is all im being judged upon.

[Donempire]

Yet my reads are still always top class and i get listened to enough times for me to be happy. And if you arent good at persuading people to think your way and would rather guilt people into voting with you, because, you had good reads before, why do you play?

I think everuone can see how opportunistic my wagon is.
Vex has been silently wagoning the most popular wagon since he came.
Chemist is jumping around easy lynches while saying he shouldnt be lynched lol
And datisi is going with the easiest choice.
I dont mean to say i scumread everyone on my wagon, clearly not. What my goal is with this post is hopefully persuade datisi and chemist to think things through.

[Donempire]

Datisi's progression onto the Dong wagon isn't pretty. She goes from feeling Towny about Dong to voting Dong after Dong doesn't answer her question, and after the Mason gambit thing, she places her vote back on Dong. I'm not super convinced Datisi has put much thought into whether Dong is actually scum - her jump onto that wagon feels opportunistic and safe. She fits the bill.

I was TRing Dong in the first half since I believed that they're Towny, I felt we were thinking similarly on our Icon read and the whole DongvMena thing felt like Town talking past eachother. Dong had been getting worse imo, and when I was trying to interact with them, I felt they were ignoring my questions. Then that Mason/not Mason/basically Mason? thing that is really rubbing me the wrong way came around. And how is that wagon safe? Mena was the only one on it at the time, and a good portion of players seems to believe he's voteworthy.

Where have i ignored your questions? I only missed one and that was only because i thought i replied to it already. If i missed anymore just say, i've cooperated so far.
My wagon is safe because you can justify everything by saying i lied about the mason claim, like a certain someone. I've put a willing target on my back to save ico, how safer can you get than that?
And the mason part is complicated. I dont want to complicate stuff further since 15 hrs left.
But think about this: would scum!dong do this to save scum!ico? If i die its instant loss. Would scum!dong do this to save town!ico? It would end up being a scenario likes this but:
1- my play before this was being townread heavily, why risk it?
2- i dont have a reason to want ico on my side as scum
Think about this for a while.