Mini Normal 2102: Mafia à la Mode! (Game Complete)

[Skellen]

Ugh, apologies, I just got my new internet access. Not that it helps, because this site is so godawful slow it's hardly playable. Have literally opened all pages in tabs, work without quotes and will just try to cover as much as I can until I ragequit.

I feel a bit iffy about tris on the first two pages, I have trouble with understanding the sequence of her reads/posts. On one hand she has no problem with joining Vex on Salad for his vote switching (temporarily) but once RCE comes around and calls Vex scum she calls RCE town. It feels off, but I don't know how to describe it. Like in comparision I get Mizzy who had the same observation about Vex like RCE and started voting Vex, while tris just says RCE is town without implying any reason and moves on with voting BEF as she seemingly didn't share the suspicion on Vex? What was the thought process here?

I don't like BEF's opening either for similar reasons. His opening felt a bit lazy with leaning town on RCE without participating in anything that happened so far, it looks a bit like trying to fit in with agreeing on the current consensus townlean. Him just backing off his random vote when Mizzy asked him about it looked weird. I don't know why he even bothered?

For the record it's not that I disagree about a townlean on RCE. I have the same tendency about him, but I felt that interaction with Vex was too early for that as Vex could as well just have been an easy target with his try-hard approach to gain some early towncred. I think RCE's handling of his Morality scumread is more town indicative here.

[Skellen]

Regarding Morality I hate his 1-shot bp Miller claim going by the implications of it and my intuitive reaction to that is to lynch that asap. I can see two motivations with these though, considering who made this claim it's most likely fake anyway, so I don't think this is that much alignment indicative.

@RCE:
How was he trying to dictate the gamestate with his tris/Mizzy association?

His defensive behaviour after RCE started scumreading him was more surprising and looks more shady, however I also wouldn't see it coming from FL.

@Morality:
Why do you think there is at least one scum on your wagon? Why wouldn't scum stay away from pushing you early as you are according to yourself (at least FL!self lol) so hard to lynch on D1?

[Skellen]

I don't like benhalkum either. His first post comes in with an excusing tone that he is not lurking and then later he unvotes his random vote and leans on a Morality vote as he finds his behaviour scummy. So why doesn't he vote Morality then? It's not that he is asking Morality any questions either, so...? Gives me a bad impression so far.

VOTE: benhalkum

[Skellen]

This shit literally took so long I didn't even see that he now claimed Jailkeeper. ffs why even?

I kind of think he is exaggerating with his throwing attitude in his recent posts? Doesn't feel real at least, at least tonally.

[Skellen]

Firstly don't read Morality the same way you would read FL, he's being honest there. They aren't technically the same player.

That said it wasn't the Tris/Mizzy association itself, it's that he threw that in as a hard read to push that bef is town.

Just throwing it out like that when most slots are unsure is an intentional plant. It gets people pairing those two whenever they start to form their own reads, all he needs is for someone to echo it for him.

There is an element of manipulation (including emotional) in order to get ahead. So I agree his response and claim is a front and as town he absolutely would not put town at a disadvantage like that.

The only thing he's trying to accomplish with the claim is to avoid a Lynch today.

It's a bit weird, but guess I have to come around getting a grasp on this persona then.

Alright I think I get your thought here, the fact that he wasn't pushing this narrative since his opening anymore was the point that bothered me as I kind of thought he would try to establish that more forceful in the room as it wasn't really picked on by anyone besides maybe Mizzy. But that might be because I was assuming the FL mindset here.

I agree with the last point but at the same time that's what makes me wonder. Neither does such a executed claim might ensure survival nor does it force a counterclaim and it would buy one day at most anyway. It looks so like suboptimal play unless that's what he has been banking on, but by my limited experience that's in any way rather the highway into the dead thread. However I don't see why town!Morality would do this either.

[Skellen]

Didn't need to vote yet as I wanted him to respond to me or others to weigh in before I voted. I don't like to vote once random is over unless I truly feel they are bad news.

With that being said though, VOTE: Mortality.

1) The false claim so early (As he claimed again, proving it to be false, proves he can't be trusted)

For me it was your wording that you emphasized it with calling his behaviour very very scummy so I felt your scumread was already strong enough. Of course you backed that now up with adding reasons from his recent posts though. I didn't had the impression you were really waiting for a reaction there as what you pointed out to no one particular was basically already covered by DDL earlier.

What were you thinking about his first claim to begin with? It looked nonsensical to me to begin with so I assumed it was most likely false anyway. Were you buying it or didn't comment on it earlier because you didn't really checked the thread yet when you checked in for the first time?

[Skellen]

@Skellen - You said it doesn’t seem real? My strongest ability as scum is to come off as incredibly natural. You’ve witnessed ScumMe this year even.

So you are admitting that it wasn't genuine. Yeah, I remember scum!you pretty well, which is why I was assuming it wasn't genuine to begin with as you acted way more different when getting annoyed during a "1v1" with Vork and you striked my as kind of different type that wouldn't go that fast into afk/toxic route. Which is also the point why I have a problem with seeing the town motivation behind that besides maybe fishing for reactions, but I feel by context that this isn't the right moment for it.

[Skellen]

I am not really sure about Morality yet. Like I can definitely see RCE's points and they seem to look plausible and I am inclined to think that he might be scum here after all, but I think the thing that bothers me the most here is that this Morality business overshadows the whole thread and it feels like most are just skating by and I don't know yet what to make out of it. To be fair there was the issue with the site in between.

[Skellen]

Morality is the 2nd lynch option today because it to me a morality's play is NAI because it just is and lynching there wouldn't give us any info, regardless of alignment.

By 2nd lynch option, I mean more like a Plan B if we can't get another wagon going. So I have no interest in lynching there.

This is what I don't really understand about you. You always bring Morality up as the alternative to tris and asks her in #125 what would make her more town than Morality. And now you say Morality's play so far was nai and it would be a lynch with no useful information (disagree, he is the most active player here and is dominating the thread in either way, there are enough associations imo). So aren't you scumreading Morality to begin with? Then why is no one else the Plan B? Or are you simply seeing him as compromise lynch because he is the wagon with the most votes atm?

[Skellen]

i don't townread skellen's entrance, which is mildly concerning

Why is that concerning?

Also why is bob scummy?

[Skellen]

Bob made an rvs post when there was already things to enagage with in-thread.

What makes bob's rvs post different from ben's rvs post which came even later than bob's post?

[Skellen]

That's it basically.

If Morality flips town you can't SR others on the wagon because of his wild play today.

If he flips scum then hooray we get a dead scum on D1 but it won't help us come D2, imo.

Hm, I don't necessarily agree although in case of town!Morality I could at least see that scenario.

So I get it right by that that Morality is just compromise?

[Skellen]

UNVOTE: ben

I feel less sure about ben after #309, mostly for his conviction on his Morality scumread. Although I start to wonder if ben is the type to tunnel as he hasn't given any other reads. I can probably get behind skitter's line of thinking he might be town if Morality is. I am not sure about it though as a scummy town!Morality would be a pretty vulnerable target to get away with such attitude. I had the feeling in case of scum!Morality this might be a bus, but if I recall correctly Morality hates getting bussed, so I don't think this is necessarily the case here. Doesn't mean that I think ben is town, I would like to hear more from him outside of his Morality case.

[Skellen]

the problem with that is that i'm town

But everyone would say that.

What makes you more town than Morality. Because from where I'm at the lynch is looking to be between the 2 of you today.

good post for the point of the game we're in.

Why was that a good post? Him settling at that early point of the game to these two lynch options looks pretty final in a weird way (and he isn't even interested in lynching the 2nd option according to himself).

What makes bob's rvs post different from ben's rvs post which came even later than bob's post?

imo because ben tried to engage with a few other things, while bob just ceased to exist.

Me and skitter were talking about the rvs posts of both though, not what followed later. While bob indeed just disappeared for a while it's not like ben did much more than bob, a tmost only justifying his random vote to tris in #70 which I would rather attach to the rvs post in #68. ben only tried to get engaged more later when his attention shifted to Morality.

Also can you explain why you think in #318 that skitter is town, although you can't read her? I didn't really got the impression you were leaning town on her while reading your catchup, also while I can see why you are scumreading Morality and why you are considering him as lynch option I wonder how that fits with your theory in the very same post that skitter/Morality is either TvT or SvS but never TvS yet TvS is literally the conclusion of your catchup? To be fair you said it was a tinfoil hat theory, but it seemed to me that you were inclined to believe in that.

[Skellen]

BEF join me on morality

You ask BEF to join you in voting for mory but i cant see anywhere in your iso were you have commented on morality at all. You ask other to join your vote yet you havent posted any reason why you are voting for him

Looks to me like your scum just sheeping the latest push of other players

VOTE: DrD

Can you explain your progression on this? Like DDL was already doing this recruiting for the Morality wagon thing when you were around and suspecting Morality to be a scum Jailkeeper. Even although I am aware of the out due to site performance issues.

If DDL is a scum sheep what does it mean for your read on Morality? As I said last time you were around you were inclined to think he was scum. What has changed our opinion on him?

[Skellen]

hmm bef is a bit scummier than usual

How so? Is he always scummy?

Not that I disagree, that what tris has pointed out in #331 is exactly what is bothering me about him the whole time.

[Skellen]

My quick, sketchy and shitty reads as of now, without reading isos.
Town: RCE, skitter, tris
null: everyone not mentioned
scumlean: none

Why do you think that skitter and tris are town?

How come you have no scumlean? Ever since you caught flak for your vote switching in rvs you stayed away from most stuff happening in the thread and avoided the whole Morality business and focussed instead only on DDL. Literally half of your ISO is about DDL who you are voting for and he isn't even a scumlean?

[Skellen]

Going down the skitter way of life with being V/LA for the weekend till Sunday. Got unexpected busy.

Will comment on further things then.

[Skellen]

Why do you think that skitter and tris are town?

How come you have no scumlean? Ever since you caught flak for your vote switching in rvs you stayed away from most stuff happening in the thread and avoided the whole Morality business and focussed instead only on DDL. Literally half of your ISO is about DDL who you are voting for and he isn't even a scumlean?

Partner on partner interaction you say? Very interesting...[/quote]

Now directly (DDL) or indirectly (Morality)?
DDL isn't giving me any major scum/town pings and if it was supposed to be distancing it was done poorly or at least it was meaningless. Also I think their one direct interaction which was DDL's sarcastic #143 doesn't look like SvS to me. Admittedly tonal interpretations are debatable though.

Regarding Morality I thought it might have been possible as Saladman might have wanted to avoid direct associations with Morality, particularly because his only posts about Morality were a fluff post about Millers and when he questioned DDL about his Morality vote. Although the latter sounded at least genuine to me and tbh Saladman doesn't feel scummy (or townie) to me, it's just that his reads look weird in context of his actions.

[Skellen]

Then again reading Saladman's exchange with RCE during posts #404-#414 I think I start to see where skitter's townread on him might possibly come from (at least I assume part of it comes from experience in other games if I get it right). I can see it as a townie who doesn't have any faith in his own reads, at least it doesn't look like panicked scum with moving his votes that arbitrarily when confronted by RCE with pointing out the flaws in his reasoning. Maybe a careful townlean at most as I hate it to townread people for such reasons.

[Skellen]

hmm bef is a bit scummier than usual

How so? Is he always scummy?

Not that I disagree, that what tris has pointed out in #331 is exactly what is bothering me about him the whole time.

Again, I don't see what I am supposed to respond to here. The formatting is a little strange in the quote/spoiler.

Well, originally I was more triggered by Vex who thought you made a good post on which I was disagreeing with, so you aren't originally supposed to respond to anything here. Nonetheless I stand by it that your early finality throws me off as I don't see how you can come from the mindset "either tris lynch or compromise on Morality" when not even half of D1 has passed. In comparision it took me until now to come down a decent lynchpool, I simply don't understand how you could settle that early on your lynch targets as if nothing could influence that anymore.

[Skellen]

That said it feels to me that since Morality stopped posting so much the game has really slowed down, and the wagons feel quite slow in general. Half way through the day is when I feel like wagons should be converging to give time for a claim and potential shift without scrabbling at deadline. This makes me feel like the scum equity on the wagons that people are pushing but aren't the busiest is higher, cos they are struggling to take off. Not sure about the Morality wagon though. Whatever his alignment he's definitely doing stuff traditionally considered anti-town and town!Morality is obvious mislynch bait in this situation, but while slow wagons increases scum equity for me slow thread activity increases the town equity of the leading wagon for me - scum are happy to let it go through even if they don't wanna stick their neck out.

Something similar like this is basically what is my problem with Morality/Pretentious and FL's other 73 personalities. Or different: What is bothering me about the gamestate the whole time.

This wagon exists basically since the beginning and there was never a serious attempt of a counterwagon (until now with DDl maybe) and even Morality himself never seriously pushed anyone, just some votes here and there in different directions like "this is/could be scum" without much substance while he is mostly defending himself or plays very self-centered. I think someone else said Morality wasn't really sorting anyone, although I think as Morality he did more through interactions in a way (if I remember it correctly, need to reread it later). He is now doing it more differently as Pretentious of course. But yeah, that's what is throwing me off here and gave me strong scum vibes (particularly the self-centered play), but ultimately he isn't really trying to push the focus away from himself nor has there been any noteworthy effort to direct the lynch elsewhere outside of all this as you more or less pointed already out. Considering the gamestate is/was a bit apathetic imo I would have thought that scum!Morality/Pretentious would take the chance to take control of the gamestate, but that didn't really happened either.

Otherwise there is this awful Jailkeeper claim. Normally I am inclined to take bob's approach here and resolve that claim later, but I am not even really believing that claim to begin with as the whole claim wasn't well executed and if it's actually true it would disgust me slightly. As bob said his play doesn't really match his play and even the consequences for his role are more harmful for town. And the bp claim explanation is pretty... meh. But also here I have trouble seeing what the scum motivation of the claim is besides pure survivalism like RCE said. The timing is so odd and ultimately the claim is pointless too, it has almost no effect besides emphasizing the scumreads on him. I had for a moment the wild theory that Morality might have tried to move the focus away from Vex who was kind of under fire at the beginning with the bp Miller claim, but I ditched it considering there would have been dozen of better options instead of playing himself into a deadend.

I need to reread everything regarding Morality/Pretentious but I feel the more I think about it the more I run circles around him without knowing what the fuck the correct answer even is here, but I kind of think if he is scum here than his claim would have a concrete purpose, which I am not seeing here though.

[Skellen]

im quickly skimming the thread and will most likely work on my catchup during lunch/class but i did see this:

- his opening push on salad was shallow and bad
- he likes playing town and tends to avoid posting as scum. Like town!him enjoys catching up and i think would have done it last night, over complaining over how many pages were produced. Scum!him feels catching up is a chore, and this is the attitude i see in 278

Pedit: @luv, regarding vex

1) push on salad was just because i tried metaing everyone before the game started, gave up when i got to tris and saw like 10+ games id need to read over and decided to do homework instead. salad from what i saw was a weaker player and would probably alignment spew from an early push.
2a) under vex, yes i prefer town over scum. as korina, i prefer scum over town. its a semantics argument on why and ill explain it post-game if anyones interested.
2b) the argument for activity for vex is kinda true, kinda not. i know i share some traits between korina and vex which i cant really help, (namely high posting), however, recently (newbie 1949, the game you modded), you saw that i was posting a lot as scum, esp in the scum pt.
2c) i do enjoy catching up, however, like 20+ pages over the span of 48hrs when i cant read any of it due to site lag, much less login to vex to begin with just demotivates me from trying. also, with lag and the fact that my fall break is today, and i have a couple of papers due, i really didnt wanna bother with catching up right then. im happy to try to do it later today because im on break and i got nothing due tho

I dont know why but there is just something about this post. Feels a bit comradery.

The thing that pinged me about this post is rather that before actually catching up he still went back to respond to a post to defend/justify himself as first priority. I am not feeling the comradery here though?

[Skellen]

People who think there’s even a little bit of thought behind my posts are scum...

Why even make this post?

[Skellen]

I am probably down to Vex, bef and Pretentious for today's lynch, also in that order. But I don't know about Pretentious, maybe he is out of it, myabe he stays. Blergh.

Not sure about DDL. I can see the points that Mizzy brought up and I agree with skitter that the wording in #425 looks strange for coming from a town mindset. But it was also my impression that posts of this kind could be normal coming from him going by his personality.

I like RCE and Mizzy for town. Was considering to lean town on tris too, but I remember that a few days ago something wording related threw me off her again which I hadn't looked into yet. I kind of had/have a subjective gut townlean on skitter, but I don't really feel dedicated to it yet as I am not feeling it yet outside of that gut feeling.

@RCE:
My impression aside that I don't really feel he is your pocket, what exactly does this bef pocket thing mean for your read on him?

[Skellen]

Bob might be scum

Yeah, in the end it's probably just that. I am partly biased with my past experiences with scum!him where there was a clear purpose in his fakeclaim, where it just took a bit more to figure the whole picture out.

[Skellen]

What the fuck where did this quote came from? It was obviously addressed to #528.

[Skellen]

I need to reread everything from A50 tomorrow when I am not half asleep.

Regarding #607 I am unsure what to think of it. Like I get the first line of thought that one of the wagons could be scum and rest town. Beyond that it becomes difficult imo as Pret more or less pointed out. I don't really understand on what basis that assumption is based on? Why that specific votecount/gamestate? Like I think there isn't that much information yet to construct such constellations already.

Also A50, why are you so confident on your townread on bef? Going by your catchup you went as far to lock him as town for pursuing his tris scumread. Why is that so strongly town indicative for him?

[Skellen]

i like morality for scum i dislike tris for scum

i present my case on a50:

man i really dislike the 1/3 by a50. it's standard setting ml line, and also gives us the illusion of choice

frankly i dont think your posting is out of your scumrange, and your pred. looks bad.

So you changed your opinion about bob going by #532 as he was originally your 2nd after Pret? I get your case on A50 so that he is now there, but what changed about bob as you aren't mentioning him in this post anymore?

I don't know why you felt to emphasize on your tris read though.

[Skellen]

very easy for me to get disengaged as town.

[Skellen]

Still feel weird about ben. His most recent post has again this defensive/justifying tone/phrasing that rubs me the wrong way. Don't know if that is just his personality or it's because of people being wary about his fixation on Pret.

[Skellen]

Ok, after rereading A50's entrance I am null on him, but I don't want to lynch his slot for today at least. I am kind of curious how his reads will develope from here on. I can't however shake off the feeling he is setting up some kind of certain gamestate for later with his three wagons constellation, but flips and night results will tell I guess.

I think I am coming around with leaning town on skitter beyond my subjective townlean from the beginning, mostly because of her thoughts and conclusions from her interactions with Pret yesterday as most of them mirror my thoughts exactly. And I don't feel like there is a hidden agenda behind her handling of Pret.

[Skellen]

My gut instinct tell me to lynch Pret, my head says no though.

I have difficulties to see why he would have acted in some situations as scum as he did or considering how the gamestate was at some points, but then again I don't see why he would as town either. It's frustrating. While he creates a lot of content I feel he stirs up a lot of stuff that is ultimately pretty coming down with always pointing out that badly why he is town, it's probably just too much for me.

[Skellen]

I think ben might be back in my lynchpool though. It's just his whole D1 so far despite his strong conviction in his Pret scumread. Or I am not good at understanding these early tunneler mindsets that mostly ignore everything else. Then again the only people who are there are... Pret and bef. I don't even know why bef is there anyway.

[Skellen]

Including your slot, I am null on everyone sitting on the DDL wagon. I'd suggest we pick someone on the Pret wagon and lynch there.

RCEnigma

,

benhalkum, Saladman27

,

DrDoolittle

VOTE: benhalkum

I am not getting your thought process here. First it was that tris was your only real scumread and Morality as compromise, despite being null/nai. Then you moved to Morality/Pret without any explanation why you left tris. Then you leave Morality again because you liked Pret more. So were you townreading Pret by then?

I can get why you didn't move back to tris as skitter was aksing for suggestions for lynch options because EoD and there were no one else on tris. Although I still wonder what happened to your tris read? Especially because ben also only had one vote.

Finally to come back to the quote, are you genuinely scumreading both ben and Saladman or are they also null as everyone else was before? Because if so and in case if Pret is not town to you, why are you looking for scum on a wagon that is null or you have been null for the most time and not on the wagon which is on one of your townreads? (DDL)

[Skellen]

VOTE: BrightEyedFish I think.

I also don't really like how he was acting around the Morality/Pret wagon.

[Skellen]

FFS! Pick just about anyone else to lynch, Skellen. I only have you and BEF as strong town reads so far, and of a pool of 12 players you only chose BEF to vote???? I mean, I'd have understood if you voted me over BEF.

Look, it's not that I am ignorant to your townread on him and I appreciate your reasoning in #783, but I haven't played with him before and I am not really seeing it here. Or differently: It's exactly his behaviour after leaving the Pret wagon that doesn't make sense for me to come from town, if my interpretation of his assumed reads is right. So I want him to take a clear stance what his Pret read is rn as I don't see why you would look as town for scum on a null wagon where half of the wagon composition consist out of your townreads without having expressed any scumreads on the other two there while you don't look at all at those who are wagoning your townread.

[Skellen]

i think so. i'll take your (and RCE's) word for it.
VOTE: bob

That was all that it took to change your mind? You trust the word of your scumread (if he still is) that easily?

[Skellen]

What is the bob case?

Like I don't even remember much about him off the top of my head, even less than about LUV, which is not good of course. But I think so far only DDL gave a reason for scumreading him as bob's posting was underwhelming or something like that.

[Skellen]

It's exactly his behaviour after leaving the Pret wagon that doesn't make sense for me to come from town

And what is his scum motive for doing so? Unless you believe Pretentious to be scum in which case you should have voted Pretentious (at least he does have a wagon on him).

Eh, crap. Looks like I messed the syntax up.

It isn't really about the part you quoted that he left the wagon. Like I am cool with it if he leaves Pret because he thinks he is town or still null and someone else is scummier or whatever, that's not the big deal to me. It's right after that how he approaches to lynch on either of the two wagons as I assume one of your first initial reactions as town is to look on those who are trying to lynch your townreads, which he seems to dismiss here with saying they are all null while it's not clear what his read on Pret is and he never said anything about ben or Saladman before nor in his post. What his scum motivation could be here depends on different things, which is imo a bit too speculative, personally I am more interested in figuring out what kind of mindset he has here.

[Skellen]

I must say that Pret's observation on A50 is quite interesting as it also striked me as odd that there was such a firm townread on bef that is mostly based on general experience/meta than specific proof in the thread. Does A50 usually have a tendency to do such firm reads on bef or other people?

[Skellen]

I'll say I believe the attempt to get a bob wagon going is scum indicative.

This is actually exactly how I felt about a potential bob wagon as I thought this was just going for a low info lynch away from the two competing wagons (Pret, DDL), which made me wonder if one of these actually is scum. However that would assume that bob is town and atm he is a total wildcard to me. The nullest of all. It pinged me a bit that the last time he showed up it was only to react to tris' vote on him without commenting on anything else that is happening, so DDL has kind of a point that he isn't doing much outside his DDl case on which he is sitting for most of the day. So I am not that sure about that anymore. I plan to reread the game before deadline and need to focus on bob while doing that.

[Skellen]

Can't say I am that satisfied with bef's response, but I think there is no point in pursuing this if I go by his reads, so I will leave it till I know more.

VOTE: Pretentious

While I townread skitter for her interactions with him I can't shake off the suspicion that he is slightly manipulative in that conversation, like his focus in trying to win skitter over who is also the most charismatic person on his wagon (he couldn't probably make RCE move anyway). That and these multiple emphases that he is town, it rubs me the wrong way like he

wants

to establish this mindset casually.

Then again his oberservation on A50 is quite townie imo. Ugh, that guy drives me nuts.

I will also pay attention on tris while rereading today, I think that's someone I could compromise onto. Her voting behaviour comes off as pretty arbitrarily, although it only pinged strongly when she moved on to bef, to bob and then back to A50. That was a weird sequence. However I also thought that her townreads came off rather naturally.

[Skellen]

My stance regarding Pret hasn't changed, he needs rope today imo. The claim combined with tris' flip emphasizes it even more now. We aren't in a hurry to end this day though.

I feel a bit iffy about A50's reaction to the skitter kill. Pret looks bad with tris' Doc flip anyway and skitter was townread by a good amount of players (and it was imo obvious that their EoD interactions weren't SvS) so even letting Pret/skitter continue for a while would most likely have ended in Pret's lynch anyway. Although I think it's more the Vig question that makes me feel iffy here. (and now also asking for a Vig claim)

Questionable might be if skitter had an obvious Tracker crumb or any extraordinary reads. Although I am inclined to think by first impression before ISOing that it was more some kind of fearkill or something like that.

[Skellen]

Someone that already caught my eye during a reread when tris got flipped and now gets emphasized by his behaviour at the beginning of this day is Saladman.

At some point he posted his reads and listed tris as town in #375 and later when asked by Mizzy about his scumreads he moved his vote to tris in #406 because she was the scummier on the top two wagons (being vague as he said she wasn't scummy per say) as she was kind of non-existent according to him before he switched to Morality after being confronted by RCE. As standalone post not that weird, but in context with his townread on tris earlier this looks odd. It's not that tris posted in between these two posts by Saladman that could have changed his mind. To be fair the reads were done when he hadn't ISO'd everyone yet, but I want to know how tris turned from a townread to someone worthy lynching for.
VC was also pretty interesting at that point as Vex (A50 slot), DDL and Morality were at 2 votes I think with no real leading wagons.

I don't like his entrance into this day either, first him normally interacting with the thread and then quickly joining the wagon on Pret once others voted him, it reeks a bit like a bus if Pret is scum.

[Skellen]

Yeah, had to force me to read through all this setup spec, I think it's not the time yet to guess the whole setup, it feels rather distracting.

I am rereading stuff regarding Pret so some random questions that my mind is associating right now.

@Pret:
What made you stay away from the DDL wagon on D1? For most of the time you held him in your lynch options but always put him into your 2nd choice behind ben and bob later.

How come you are so null the whole time on me? Assuming you are town for some unholy reason wouldn't VCA suggest me being scum from your point of view? After all my vote would have made sure you stay the only viable counterwagon to tris with 4:5 (so both leading wagons would be town if you are) while skitter was considering moving back and tris still had to show up.

What makes you think only one of DDL/Salad is scum? Salad was on your wagon and once it seemed your wagon was stalling and DDL's dissolving he moved on to tris (technically scum already had your claim anyway if they were believing you). Or is it because of their early game interactions?

[Skellen]

I blinked and 10 pages had gone by. VOTE: DDL, I’ll explain later why.

Don't forget to follow up on this.

While we are at it also don't forget to tell what was up with that heel turn on tris on D1 from townread to vote on her. (not the vote at EoD)

[Skellen]

Oh, cool. A pagetop.

[Skellen]

@Pret:
What are the posts that make LUV seem town to you? (or maybe also: why?)

[Skellen]

makes you wonder why scum didnt go for pret or drd wagons but instead went for tris


If drd and pret town why didnt they get over the line. Now pret got to l-2 not sure if got as far are l-1.

Drd never got past 4

is one scum or are they both town. and if both are town why did scum not want them

That's basically what is giving me an headache too.

The whole flash wagon thing stinks imo.

The whole DDL wagon shifted to tris (besides you) while the Pret wagon remained pretty stable, only Saladman joined the tris wagon, which broke the tie between tris/Pret. If DDL is scum that would make it likely that most of the scum were already stuck on the Pret wagon or offside the two major wagons pre-tris (only bef or LUV), because I am not sure if his partners vote him up as counterwagon to town!Pret who even claimed a PR before, so that would have been a pretty dangerous move. I townread RCE though so that would leave ben and DDl himself there on the Pret wagon, maybe Saladman who might have moved on to tris just to ensure a lynch will finally go through or force a claim out of tris. Regarding bef and LUV it is also noticeable that both weren't considering Pret as serious lynch option, so they weren't really in a position to jump in if things might have gone downhill for DDL. Also bef left the Pret wagon right after the DDl wagon gained momentum and became the counterwagon with Mizzy being the third vote, so I would lean that bef might be an unlikely partner then.

If Pret is red, then things might make more sense at least why the DDl wagon shifted that quickly over to tris. I wouldn't see there any major bussing either besides Saladman, because I don't think scum!Pret would allow to let scum!ben just keep tunnelling him through the whole day (and letting him continue on D2 without any other major sorting). Also Pret only voted against ben on D1 until he voted tris at the end of D1, so they would both have restricted each other while Pret was the leading wagon, which would leave a lot of work for the third scum. Something similar would be if both Pret and DDl are scum, just that Pret danced around the DDl wagon the whole day while DDl was stuck on Pret for most of the day. The thing that looks odd here though is the lack of a serious counterwagon for most of the time until DDl came up and as you said that wagon also stalled at 4 and even if the other two were there Pret wasn't really going there either unless scum!Pret was planning to wait till the timer runs down and hop on in last second because lynch for lynch's sake.

If both are town this is far more open, but again it looks odd how both wagons were stalling which either means scum were restricting themselves with their reads for some reason and couldn't push either wagon or they were already early on it (or waiting till the end and staying offside until then). As Pret said I could see scum going for other claims but I felt the DDL wagon wasn't really going anywhere, at least I don't remember right now who else was considering voting/scumreading DDL back then besides Pret.

I am aware that this is a lot of preflip spec and doesn't consider irrational hardbussing, but hell, I had to write down at some opportunity what was going through my head regarding the D1 wagons, so sorry for the wall.

[Skellen]

@Saladman:

While we are at it also don't forget to tell what was up with that heel turn on tris on D1 from townread to vote on her. (not the vote at EoD)

[Skellen]

I can't tell if Saladman is scum or just awkward town. I kind of want to lean on the latter, eerrh but I dunno.

[Skellen]

As for DDL I think his case on A50 seems townie, I actually share his observation about A50 to an extent regarding his handling of Pret. I think I lean town on DDl for now, he seemed to me more like scummy town than scum and going by my wagon analysis in case of scum!DDL I have some doubts if he could be a team with Saladman or LUV. Want to reread some stuff just in case though.

[Skellen]

Skellen, vote RCEnigma with me.

I won't just throw my townread out of the window and vote him. lol
Like I agree that his skitter comment doesn't look good (more kind of lamist like) and his hard focus on you worries me a bit (he actually is looking left and right though), but overall I am mindmelding with him on too many things to think I am wrong here with the current informations.

See, my problem with your solve is that both ben and RCE as scum is suggesting that 2/3 of the scum team are simply tunnelling you for the whole game. ben isn't even bothering to look elsewhere (he just now started actually suspecting Saladman), RCE is simultaneously looking elsewhere at least but also has no intention of moving elsewhere besides considering tris for a moment at the end of D1. Why are they restricting themselves that hard? If you would flip town there would probably be quite a backlash for them.

Also considering your suspects for the third scum slot Saladman, DDL and me were all on you, so besides A50 the whole scum team wouldn't have done much besides solely pushing you the whole first day. Which also contradicts what you said #1345 that they would look elsewhere for claims, none of those besides A50 (and Saladman early) weren't even bothering with going after DDL. I don't know if I misunderstood some context here but this thought process makes no sense with your proposed scum team.

[Skellen]

I've only seen his town game and it's always been awkward town. I don't think I've played with salad and he hasn't been lynched.

I see, skitter was also having a strange townread on him (for similar reasons as I suspect), so maybe I will roll with that for today.

I guess what makes me wary of him how quick he is with joining wagons that gained or seem to gain some momentum or at least that's my impression.

[Skellen]

The most reasonable explanation for the flash wagon is the hesitancy from slots suspicious of pret to actually Lynch there but there was still threat. DDL couldn't get off the ground but deadline and the probing on Tris caught traction.

I think DDL is town and there is scum in the common votes between DDL and Tris.

I might agree with this explanation why the flash wagon came up.

The deduction of your last line would mean that A50 would be the common scum as I take it you are town on bob and Mizzy. That's something I am also inclined to agree with.

However how do you explain the failed counterwagon with DDL? That's what is bugging me, because then it would mean that Pret played around joining the DDl wagon the whole time and wasting time arguing with skitter who was on the DDL wagon anyway. Also the other possible partners for Pret weren't really helping either, LUV had DDL out of his PoE and didn't had any presence anyway, BEF was townreading DDL and couldn't go there either, Saladman is the only versatile one here. Of course there is the ben "wagon" with both Pret and BEF, but that push was pretty half-assed, especially on Pret's part. So the tris flash wagon would have been a lucky opportunity, but they didn't really do much for it.

[Skellen]

bob's suspect pool is a good one or at least pretty much where I am at too, just switching Mizzy with ben as I think the former is town. Although regarding both much depends on Pret's alignment imo.

[Skellen]

I also don't believe Pret targets me as JK there if he believes in scum. I was the loudest voice pushing against him even after the JK claim. If I'm scum and fear his claim even a little bit I'm 100% not making the kill and Pret would consider that.

So you think he jailed you in attempt to block scum!you from killing/doingwhatever?

I just went back and checked what his reads were on you, but that's hard to figure out from his ISO. The last specific read he gave on you on D1 was #463 which sounds rather null and is far away from EoD anyway, so it isn't telling much. At the end of D1 he had scum solves that didn't had you in and he was suspecting that he might get killed according to #944 (probably more likely with a flipped Doc). So if he was aiming for scum choosing you looks indeed like a weird choice.

If he was trying to protect you there wasn't any indication either as he never strongly read you as town. Going by #1135 it seemed like he was town on you, but not confident enough to keep you till lylo around. Although I think most of that read relates to D2 stuff, so there isn't probably much to get from either.

I think Pret has yet to explain why he choose you.

[Skellen]

I think he's fishing. That's the only thing that makes sense.

Not really seeing that tbh. At least I think that's not a good way to fish.

Like I thought that chances were pretty high that you would have been the nightkill in case scum wouldn't have played it safe after the Doc flip and would have killed Pret. So it was for me reasonable that he choosed you, I wasn't sure about the intention though (EoD posts kind of suggested he was considering skitter). Admittedly I missed his post to A50 were he basically said it was either skitter or you, but what he said regarding that recently is good enough for me.

[Skellen]

And you can tell from Skellen’s trajectory they are pushing my wagon, but actively staying off of it.

Well, obviously I am staying off your wagon. I am just cracking for most time of D2 my head over you and I am neither convinced of scum!you nor town!you. I am suspecting you mostly for D1, your claim and the setup spec early D2 and I have the lingering fear that the reason why skitter died was simply because she was the only person that could stand up to you by charisma. Although I have the tendency like LUV that there is ultimately not much point in digging too much into the kill as I also have already seen skitter getting killed early for bad reasons.

And then again I think most of your reads on D2 make sense coming from your point of view if I assume town!you despite some inconsistencies (if that makes sense) and as I already pointed out I can't make sense out of your behaviour around your wagon and the stalling DDL counterwagon if you are scum (unless Mizzy is scum with you). Finally no push of you has been giving me the creeps yet unlike in Ramblings like when you were trying to fry the crow or lynched Titus and Succinct.

[Skellen]

If you're town and ddl is town, DDL gets lynched day 1 and scum get to say you were the counterwagon. The extra steps are wasted energy.

But what if it is just a pretty passive scum team though?

[Skellen]

Why? This is the same exact thing I gave to DDL. This is actually pretty suspect.

I am incredibly obv town for my Day 1 minus page 6 and before. Take out that part, what do you got?

If you are so obvtown why is half the game constantly suspecting you? This actually is why I am suspecting you for D1 where you did it the most. Like I admit that this might be a subjective thing, but someone who has the need to outline that often that he is town, doesn't feel town to me, like I don't give a shit, either others get it right or not. You seem way too focused on your appearance as town and to establish that in our minds.

[Skellen]

I’m the most consistent scum player on site. A weakness of my scum game is that I’m too consistent and everything lines up way too perfectly.

You got to feel this in ramblings.

I am careful with these statements of yours since the infamous "I don't bus as scum just to bus in the very same game", I think if anywhere I can see that this consistent might be what I meant with your votes/pushes where I could see a scum motivation behind it in our previous game while it feels in this game that these are more in a trial and error manner if phrasing it like that makes sense. It's actually the main reason why I think you could be town here. I actually want to check you in Ramblings just to be sure I am remembering this correctly though.

[Skellen]

How is RCEnigma town? Can anybody give reasons? I realize I’m probably bias OMGUS tunnel, but i really feel like this is scumHim.

Originally I was townreading him for the way he develoed his scumread on you and could back it up in a comprehensible way imo. Meanwhile you two are throwing several past games at each other though that all say conveniently different things so that I am not so sure there is much I can or should take from that.

If anything atm I share his observations regarding BEF and think his play around bob looks pretty town indicative imo. Like he figured early out that bob might be a possible protective due to his comment on your Jailkeeper claim and his early townlean on bob proves that. I would think if he is scum he would push bob to get the claim, but instead when the momentum was there when people were suspecting bob (skitter, DDL I think) he took a stance against them with saying for the first time he thinks that bob is town. And there weren't any other serious pushes against bob that would indicate that his partners would do it, LUV and tris were for a moment on him, but the latter was town. DDL was still there, but he was on you. Oh, and you had bob as possible vote option for a while if I am not remembering wrong, but that's all.

To be fair, there would be a chance that bob was supposed to be saved for the nk and it became unnecessary due to the tris flip and them knowing you are the other protective (if you are town). But I still think there might have been a stronger wagon on bob as there was a wagon shortly before the tris wagon happened and RCE even said then that the attempt of the bob wagon is scum indicative.

[Skellen]

Not really feeling convinced of scum!Pret atm, still need to read other stuff for that though, blergh. So if I assume both wagons were town, then it would mean that scum was probably on both, maybe one off both. If Pret is town it's imo pretty likely there was one on the wagon. Probably ben then, but there also was Saladman. For those on the DDL wagon I would assume that they have no intention to move elsewhere because two stalling town wagons before deadline mean one of them gets lynched. So I think the first two votes that switched to tris are town, which were Mizzy and skitter.

So I would look at A50, BEF, Saladman, LUV. And ben. I am not sure though why Saladman would move to tris when he couldn't care less with three town wagons up, unless he just wanted to end the day. However he was also asking for reasons why bobwagon was a thing in the same manner he was asking for a tris wagon, making me wonder he was looking for an out from the Pretwagon or other wagon that might go through. Don't really feel anything bad about LUV, with some few posts I could agree with, but we need more from him. Need to think more about A50 and BEF because so far I have been connecting both with Pret, but meanwhile I can go there...

VOTE: Saladman

[Skellen]

@LUV:
Who do you think is scum?

[Skellen]

@Skellen - you don’t find it weird that RCEnigma basically started the Tris wagon when he said “i could go tris” or the like, then 2 pages later flash wagon.

Tbh when I first read the whole buildup until the tris wagon happened that didn't stuck out to me, also at later rereads as it always was my impression that the Mizzy/skitter conversation before the wagon sparked the flash wagon. Like Mizzy made the proposal to compromise on tris when skitter was upon voting you and finally decided to vote you, because until then Mizzy seemed fine with leaving his vote on DDL. Before that point many were already considering tris as scum (skitter longer before, A50, bef, maybe bob's reaction to tris' vote on him might count for some people despite him townreading her, RCE), so it looked to me more like one among many.

Admittedly Mizzy was actually referring to RCE's willingness to go for tris in #879 which might have given Mizzy the last push to start the tris wagon. So I think your point could be kind of legit, although I am not sure how much that ultimately weighed in. In the end he didn't voted for tris, but that could have been because last time he was around on D1 it was 4:4 between tris and you and he was waiting fo tris' response to his question. Maybe I will look more onto it tonight if somewhere else there referred to it.
But why would he want to move people to start a tris wagon if both you and DDL are town?

[Skellen]

I also don’t understand the “if DDL and you are both town” comments.

The tris wagon came fast, and if you believe Mizzy to be town, than it wasn’t even scum’s decision completely bar the chance of ScumRCE giving the momentum early.

I feel scum were likely just happy letting the day go with one of DDL and I, which is why nothing happened, scum are probably split up and if DDL is town too, then they still needed a claim from DDL. Scum probably felt like they trapped themselves away from each other, come to think of it. Like one was probably on DDL, one was on me, and they didn’t know how to genuinely move from that. This implies ScumBen even more, one on the DDL wagon, so when the Tris wagon started happening, it likely allowed for multiple scum to hop on naturally, and then this day phase they can continue to hide behind pushing either DDL or Myself, which was proven to already happen earlier in this day phase.

As for the upper part: I was understanding your assumption of RCE indirectly starting the tris wagon in a way that he did it purposefully, while it could be possible I don't really see the motivation to do so if the gamestate was already fixated on two town wagons. It looks random for scum!RCE to give the momentum for a tris wagon when everything is going in his favour. You said it yourself, as scum you can just lurk it out and let the timer run down and watch town compromise on a mislynch.

I agree with the below part of your post, that's pretty much where I am at.

[Skellen]

Unless Ben’s tunneling me, and then shading a buddy, which I could see,

It looked to me similar. The developement of ben's scumread on Saladman is a bit weird as is Saladman's suspicion against ben.

[Skellen]

For now i think ill move my vote to salad. Want too see allot more activity from him and im not likign the lack of active scum hunting. So so narrow. Can only see pushs against pret even though there is more than one mafia. cant see any real attempt at him trying to find who he thinks prets partners would be if he beleives pret is scum
VOTE: Salad

Actually I think your reason is partly flawed here. He isn't attempting to find Pret's partners because he doesn't seem to be thinking that Pret is scum as he called him lynchbait for scum in #1366, so it makes sense he is looking elsewhere. Going by the same post the last state of his scumreads seemed to be A50, ben and maybe RCE.

[Skellen]

Yeah, on that I agree.

Kind of want to see what ben makes out of it that all three wagons which are up right now are his scumreads.

[Skellen]

Hmm... interesting. Wasn't expecting the ben vote from Saladman nor that a ben wagon would actually emerge.

If it's turning out to be ben vs A50 then I want to see more pressure on the former.

VOTE: ben

[Skellen]

@A50:
Although I wonder, why ben? You had him in your pool from D1. Just the lesser evil among the viable vote choices? I mean it looks like you are still hellbent on scum!Pret, yet you join a wagon that is mainly pushed by him?

[Skellen]

@BEF and skellen - why move from the person you were voting to the person they just voted?

Saladman wasn't going through, at most ben might have gone there, but that's it. Doesn't help that I am flip-flopping on Saladman everytime I reread him, tbh I was expecting him to go for A50 and not ben. Wasn't expecting that ben might become a wagon. I find ben scummier than A50 with his combination of lurking, hard-tunnel on Pret without really trying to look and interact elsewhere unless approached by others. A50 isn't giving me any townie vibes either, but he seems to act consistent within his reads, besides his vote on ben that might look iffy. Here only the thing with the Vig claim and the tmi thing regarding bef pings me a bit.

Also part of the reason why I voted Saladman was to probe Pret, because although I am mostly town at Pret atm, I can see a world where he is scum with Saladman and LUV (there were 1-2 posts in LUV's ISO that made me wary) as that would explain why he looked so helpless with both his partners having such low thread presence that he can't really work with them. Unfortunately all three of them acted in a way that it rather adds fuel to that thought. But at the moment I will roll with my intuitive read on Pret.

[Skellen]

Actually fuck that. I am reading through ben's ISO atm and I am getting cold feet.

UNVOTE: ben

@ben:
What was the specific reason that made you move me from your D1 townreads back to your nullreads?

[Skellen]

Ugh, wasn't expecting the game taking suddenly such fast pacing. It's deep in the night here, so I will only be short here.

I think ben might be town, I buy his stubborn stance as genuine and don't think he is suicidical scum that literally has to be poked by bob repeatedly to actually vote elsewhere. I would expect a rather more survivalistic attitude, especially when he had an easy out with his other two scumreads up for voting. I also probably buy his claim, although I think that claim is rather nai.

I liked Mizzy's questioning of bef, strong mindmeld with #1600.

[Skellen]

I kind of want to vote Saladman, but the wagon composition makes me feel a bit iffy. Don't feel good about bef and I am not sure what to make out of Pret being there. But with the latter I should maybe just stop overthinking at this point as it might (or might not) get resolved by tomorrow with some luck and he is just town. This Pret/RCE deadlock is frustrating to read.

[Skellen]

Then again I don't know about A50. I feel like he and Pret are somehow avoiding each other while they are scumreading each other if that makes sense. And then there is the vote on the A50 wagon (even although it was primarily joining Saladman). But then again I don't see why scum!A50 maneuvers himself into a deadend with outright saying he wouldn't vote Saladman, he had to hope that ben would go through then. Unless his partners save him with being on Saladman. Urgh.

[Skellen]

Erh, but maybe nonetheless

VOTE: Saladman

That should be L-1.

[Skellen]

Having the two largest wagons be the only people not voting those wagons does make me speculate if we have two scum wagons or something. Part of me thinks that's just how it's gone but part of me wants a reason and that's what my brain comes up with

I would assume if both are scum then they would bus each other just for the small bit of towncred for the survivor, although at least A50 has put himself into a position where he couldn't do that with his townread on Saladman. I dunno, somehow this is a slightly bizarre situation.

[Skellen]

Like I don't know what Saladman's claim might mean here. We already have two flipped PRs and two further PRs who have already claimed, so I dunno if scum would try to fakeclaim another PR or just roll with VT. What I don't get is that he just comes in, claims and calls it a day. Like he is not dead yet as there wasn't even intent so far (well, Mizzy now of course).

[Skellen]

That'd be Impressive considering scum don't have day chat.

It's not enabled by default according to this game's rules. They could have an Encryptor.

[Skellen]

Dun dun dunnnnn. Actually not whom I thought was going down. Not sure if it's scum indicative of skellen.

Huh?

[Skellen]

I am not sure what to make out of the BEF kill.

One point might be that he was town on Pret and and he might have been an hindrance if RCE would try his third attempt to get Pret's head today. But if it was for that I feel like there might have been better targets. Also he was scum on Pret for a big part of D2, so I don't even know if his read was that meaningful here post-Saladflip.

He also was gunning for the tris wagon and was at the end on Saladman and A50, which might incriminate A50 if it was to kill off a potential A50 vote without being obvious and killing directly on the A50 wagon.

Otherwise it's either a troll kill or a PoE kill as scum can't necessarily afford to kill elsewhere because some of them are bound with other townies, who might be viable mislynches if one of them should go down. Pairs like Pret/RCE or me/A50 are such as example. That and the PoE might be smaller if Pret is town and they had to fear his jk-shot somewhere.

[Skellen]

If skellenand a50 are scum that would ceratinly explain skitters nk day one.

Well, I am all ears.

[Skellen]

I also dont like the timing of that vote. He holds of voting for pret until pret is no longer either tied or teh highest lynch. And so close to teh deadline. Why not vote pret earlier?

H had sepnt the prior 2 days on BEF and most of the rest of teh day not voting

The lynch happened only 3 hours later with the deadline only a further 1 or 2. seems a little late.

Its not even that he real pushs pret that hard. In his 3 posts by his vote. I dont think i see him give any reason why pret is scum. Earlier in game maybe but at that vital point nothing. Only mentions are in fact him saying he is quite townie. Followed by him sayign he will reread tris

Because Pret was the one I was the most insecure about of my scumreads. It was in the end the best choice from my point of view to compromise on, despite me not feeling that confident about him as I would have wished to. The alternative was tris and besides her one weird vote sequence nothing really pinged me about her, so I was about to reread her to see if I would have missed something. lolhammer made this pointless.

I was the two days on BEF for the simple reason that it took so long for BEF to respond.

I literally gave my reasons in the same post I voted. And outlined it again on D2 when Pret asked for it. Saying I gave no reason and that he is quite townie is not true. It was his remark on A50's tmi read on BEF that was townie to me, which is part of my insecurity on him.

Also I am a she.

[Skellen]

Also why would I shoot BEF of all when I had him all but pocketed?

What good is a pocket though if he had you as one of his strongest scumreads?

[Skellen]

Consensus town read that probably should have been the target. If me and Pret is TvT scum wouldn't go near either of us.

Bef seems more like a medic dodge (read as JK dodge) than a kill to weed out the Tris voters or hide behind vca.

Oh, I see, the "she is still alive, she must be scum" angle. I actually disagree with most that I would have been a good target, I basically dug my own grave with both my EoD2 votes that basically were both in favour of A50 which inevitably tied me to him, independent of his alignment. Which is exactly what is more or less getting pushed now, even although I think that view is only one side of the coin.

If anything I was pretty sure that Mizzy would have been the kill, given scum wouldn't chicken out because of the jk-shot. Then I would have thought that bob would have been the next best option for scum as he is as well widely townread and not really tied to anyone. Why isn't it in his case weird either that he dodged the bullet?

[Skellen]

why would rce nk BEF if his goal would have been to get rid of blockers to pret lynch.

Looks quite clear teh next 2 on BEF list were A50 and pret

Well, he was also saying he was town on Pret later and mostly looking for those he thought they were scum on the tris wagon. That wouldn't necessarily mean that with Saladman's flip Pret would be scum again for him, but that's what I meant, we don't know that and BEF's read didn't seemed that firm either, hence I think that point is rather unlikely.

I don't necessarily think RCE has to be scum though if BEF got killed for that reason.

[Skellen]

This is going to be a long massclaim.

[Skellen]

Kills are typically dictated by stronger players, and BEF is a very much you-led and not RCE-led kill.

Why though?

[Skellen]

One thing I wanted to get back on was vc 1.4, which stuck out during my VCA as pretty noticeable, although this might only be the case from my point of view. Yes, I know it was pretty early in the game, I think partly even with rvs votes, so that is all to take with a grain of salt as I might just overthink stuff but I think the constellation is with the known flips still interesting.

Votecount 1.4

Lil Uzi Vert

- 1 (bob3141)

Mizzytastic

- 1 (Lil Uzi Vert)

Morality

- 4 (RCEnigma, DrDoolittle, benhalkum, Morality)

Saladman27

- 1 (Vex Vience)

tris

- 2 (Mizzytastic,

BrightEyedFish

)

DrDolittle

- 1 (

Saladman27

)

benhalkum

- 1 (Skellen)

Vex Vience

- 1 (

skitter30

)

BrightEyedFish

- 1 (

tris

)

Not Voting

- 0

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-10-09 22:00:00)

Now to go from my point of view, I know I am town, I am townreading Mizzy and bob. At least regarding Mizzy I am pretty sure, I buy his Bodyguard claim, it feels authentic and I can see such a role with an indecisive Doc, but the latter is rather my newb setup spec conclusion. Of course this isn't considering whatever bob has in store for us.

If I assume this, it becomes pretty noticeable that almost all early one votes came from town, leaving only LUV and Vex/A50. Cornering everyone by that PoE and Pret's self-vote aside it strongly indicates that there must have been scum already early on the Pret wagon. However all three were there for most of D1 or even D2. Only DDL was off for a short while on D1 and later D2. Therefore I am suspecting that Pret might most likely be town, unless one of these three has been bussing hard for most of the game so far or he fits well with LUV and A50. Going to go through that now.

[Skellen]

So looking outside of Pret's early fanclub first, assuming scum!Pret I can definitely see him with LUV as team. LUV's vote were in timing always favourable for Pret, might it be to vote tris up to L-1 when I voted Pret on D1, kind of downplaying the suspicions on Pret on D1 (or early D2?) or tying A50 with Pret and Saladman on D2.

Which is however also why I have doubts, because I am not sure how A50 would fit in as third scum. I mean I can see him and Pret being partners, as DDL isn't completely wrong here, it feels like both are barking at each other for the whole game without any serious consequence. But I don't know why LUV would bus his second partner up into the fray when Pret is already there and there would be a wagon on town with Saladman. Sure A50 had his vote on Pret, but ultimately he followed Saladman to ben. So they must have been confident that the ben wagon would go through. But it's also odd for scum!A50 to push for Pret when the game was temporarily stalling on D2.

It's not that Pret/A50/LUV is impossible, but I don't really feel it. I could switch one of A50 or LUV with bob and it would fit very well, at least purely by VCA. But I am town on bob, need to review him just in case, but I will probably wait till we got the full picture after massclaim.

[Skellen]

That would leave him, if he is scum, with someone who has bussing him for the whole time since the beginning. RCE and ben would have bussed him literally through the whole game so far. I don't think ben would be a partner here, his stance on Pret feels sincere. I am not sure about his claim, because I could swear I skimmed through a game recently where scum fakeclaimed Tracker Enabler. But the claim doesn't really feel scummy.

RCE most likely not too, there is a 1% chance that he is purposely bussing him for the whole time to hard-distance here, it makes me a bit nervous that both brought it up that they wouldn't do that, but that is more paranoia than reasonable (like I don't think they need to go such lengths), so I am inclined to say no. Also RCE seems to be out for Pret's blood really badly without giving any indications to back off sneakily.

Don't really believe in DDl either, even if he was temporarily off Pret. They were both stuck on 4:4 without any serious attempts to break the stalemate by themselves. There was maybe the bob wagon opportunity that arised and was considered by both (not sure however if it was for DDl earlier or also the same time as Pret considered it, note to myself to reread that scene) but they didn't followed up on that either. And the tris wagon looks rather town motivated and I don't buy that scum!Pret acts so passive the whole time.

[Skellen]

Yeah, I can only see Pret as scum if I am wrong on one of my townreads (Mizzy/bob, most likely bob then). So I think he is town here. In that case I am fairly confident that the trio RCE/DDL/ben would contain at least one scum. Among those three I think ben is the one who is most likely town atm, so I would probably leave him out of that PoE.

[Skellen]

Problem is however then that the scum team constellations in case of town!Pret aren't really fitting that well either.

I don't see RCE being scum with A50, unless it was some risky bussing on D2 to L-2 with the anticipation that me and BEF would join the ben wagon (and eventually bob too). Then again ben could have decided to join the A50 wagon and then it's L-1 and some had A50 in their PoE. So if I scratch A50 that would leave RCE/DDL/LUV. I mean it could fit, but that would mean that the whole scum team was at the end of D2 on A50. That would look like suboptimal play when the lynch would have ended up on A50. Particularly I don't see why RCE joins the A50 wagon, even if it was only for drawing a false association with ben. Similar with RCE/DDL/A50.

It might be better with DDL/A50/LUV, but I am not seeing the need to bus A50 that early either. Particularly DDL began pushing him early, I don't really see the need for him to push the focus away from Pret. Might need to reread D2 though.

[Skellen]

Which means if Pret is town, then it would be either RCE/DDL/LUV, RCE/DDL/A50 or DDL/A50/LUV. But all three feel rather eeehhhh.

But that would mean I drew the wrong conclusion on Pret or one of my townreads is wrong. Crap. Will reconsider that tomorrow though, I am tired.

[Skellen]

For once I actually listened to the advice of my IC in my first game and split my wall into multiple posts. Doesn't feel any different besides post counter going up.

[Skellen]

theres no 3 protectives in this game?!

Like I agree that the Jailkeeper is the odd one that sticks out here, but if we take bob's hinting at face value we can as well have 4 protectives by claims (or still 3 if one is fake), so I don't know what to make of the setup yet.

[Skellen]

I think I have seen the light.

Im not a direct protective like jk or doc or bg. Before i give more detail i think others should claim first.

i cant see town have 3 goes at protecting a player. Without scum havign somethign to balance it out. Infact 3 direct protectives would mean that scum would have to have strongman. Even with one or two town roles that could prevent other town roles from workign i doubt anything less than strongman woudl be enough to balance

So pret being town requires scum to have strongman.

Ok, this makes it pretty obvious what you probably are if you are what I think you are.

I don't think scum necessarily needs a Strongman here. We got a Doc who can't protect consecutively and a Bodyguard who dies with the correct save and you with your indirect save. The only investigative to save here was the Tracker. In best case the combination of Doc/Bodyguard could protect the Tracker for three nights until scum would get a shot on the Tracker. The key is the Tracker Enabler here. I was already wondering what his purpose is here, but he is the backdoor for scum to bypass the protective roles to neutralize the Tracker.

The thing that was bothering me is that the Tracker would look so weak with at least three active town PRs. That would mean that Pret is indeed scum here.

[Skellen]

Solid pagetop.

[Skellen]

Guys, I don't want to spoil you party, but -so far- everything makes sense to me from a setup design/balance PoV. The designers

clearly

balanced the game around town powers trespassing on each other's turf, and thus scum could actually win through town miscommunication.

I am a Loyal Visitor. My role stopped being useful the night the Tracker died. I had been hoping for a Tracker Backup to exist to bring my role back into the game (If a Tracker successfully tracks me to someone then my target is town, but then there's a massive possibility for that to give a false result via the JK targeting me, or to give a no result if they target the Tracker)

I am not really sure what to think of that.

With that the Tracker is completely watered down and his only purpose is to target your role. So not only the Tracker has to target the Visitor, but he has many potential false positives with Doc/Bodyguard/Jailkeeper (and basically the Visitor too, if he hasn't claimed yet) and that isn't even considering if he gets jailed. So his results aren't really useful and to double down on that there is even a Tracker Enabler that gives scum a second option to take care of the only investigative role that can more or less verify anything here. That looks messy.

I don't know about that, but it doesn't really feel right. If I believe all claims then that would leave from my point of view purely by PoE RCE/DDL/LUV as solve and would mean that there are only 3 VTs in this game. I thought this was a normal.
I find that hard to believe, tbh my initial reaction here is to think that at least one claim is fake.

[Skellen]

That's a messy interpretation in itself. First: I didn't claim so the Tracker doesn't need to follow me. Second: how is it a positive for the Tracker if they targeted the Doctor or the BG? The targets don't die and don't get blocked, so the Tracker doesn't have a guilty still. It's only the JK and only if they target someone who then claims to be blocked, and from what I recall there's not a single other investigative/informative role (aside from the Tracker himself) to be able to tell they were blocked, so where does this "false positives" come from? Unless you mean the Tracker gets that someone does have a night action, which is basically a Vanilla Cop with ben as the Miller to it. (Not really a Miller either, because once ben claims the Tracker can't argue against it either, so all in all I don't see your point still).

For first: Exactly, he didn't need to follow you, but your role is basically useless without the Tracker following you as it is pretty much relying on the Tracker. Like I think such a combination isn't necessarily unlikely, I had a game where the combination loyal FV/Voyeur was around and could have cooperated as well (just that a certain someone abused and twisted it into his favour), but at least there the loyal role still could get results by itself in some manner. Your role looks to me too dependent in comparision, because it doesn't work without Tracker targeting you correctly by chance.

Regarding the second: Yeah, I meant by night actions and yeah, nevermind, I drifted too much into overthinking and the result of it doesn't really seem sound, so scratch that.
My problem is I just don't see why the Tracker is important enough so that there is a Tracker Enabler (I think I don't get your "Miller" role for ben) when already almost half the game is doing any night actions and he can't get that much from it either. So that's just looking for the right role to track among 3-4 roles (if Pret is scum there could still be a potential scum PR) and even if he gets the Visitor right there is the risk that he follows him to the nk (like it could have happened with you on N2 with BEF).

[Skellen]

I visited BEF on both nights. I wanted to confirm him as Town (and I think I did mention something about me betting the game on BEF being town sometime on D1/D2)

That was on D1 btw, in #809.

I think I can get why you would want to confirm him in N2, as there might have been a great risk that he might have become a lynch target. But I don't get why you wanted to confirm BEF as town to begin with. He was your most confident townread, you even defended him against me at D1. Why go there and not to someone you aren't confident about?

[Skellen]

As for the massclaim, I already slipped my role indirectly before, but can as well repeat it. I am VT.

Would like to see this massclaim through. Depending on what role bob claims I may or may not have a specific question for him.

I am not sure how to decide between Pret and A50. I feel like they could bus each other here, but then I don't know why they felt they needed to maneuver themselves into that situation, especially with A50's claim.

I feel like at least one of Pret, A50 and bob is bullshitting here. We have too many PRs imo. Mizzy and ben are the only claims I trust. The Jailkeeper looks the most doubtful of these, but I can't really warm up to the loyal Visitor claim either.

[Skellen]

Pret should be at L-2 btw.

[Skellen]

Town roleblocker

I even outright hinted to my one town read at the time RCE on day 2. The phrasing was quite intentional. Also did no one noticed how i was saying roleblocker all time

lol. And here I expected something like bulletproof or Commuter and not another active role. I suck at this setup stuff. Now I know even less what to make out of that.

Roleblocker and Jailkeeper are almost similar roles, the latter being the stronger role. Interesting though that by theme and claims we seem to have almost any possible active protective role in the setup. Not sure what that means for the Visitor. Initial thought is rather that both Roleblocker and Jailkeeper for town is too much of the same kind.

[Skellen]

no wonder my post didnt show up. I finished it off in the wrong reply and pressed sumbit with out checking lol.

My opinion on him realy hasnt changed. I dont beleive his roleclaim.

There are two outcomes on any morality flip. One that he is scum and one that he is town.

For both possible outcomes DrD vote looks rather hollow and sheepy. All depends on if he is scum wanting to get lynch through or scum sheeping his partners wagon.

But for now i dont like lynching roleclaims day one. If he surives to day 2 i cant see morality not beign scum. As i cant see town jailkeeper and town doc both being in this game. 2 protectives for 13 player game. doesnt look likely

Last game i played it was town doc and scum jailkeeper in 12 player game.

This was where I wanted to get back after your claim. I get why you weren't believing his roleclaim with your knowledge. But why the talk that there can't be a Town Jailkeeper and a Town Doc in the game? Or was Town Doc just a different way of phrasing your own role?

[Skellen]

Skimming through bob's ISO his overall behaviour towards Pret makes sense with always pressuring him. I get it that on D1 he wasn't believing Pret's claim and ends up on the counterwagon to Pret. I just feel that he was a bit tame towards Pret considering he only voted him at the beginning of D2 for a short while. Maybe that's just me, but if I would see someone claiming a very similar role I would push that person more to see if there is suspicious resistance or not. I think however that his play as Roleblocker looks overall mostly consistent, at least I believe the claim.

[Skellen]

ill have to look at this vote. As caught this on skim but why unvote here. Ben gets to l-1 and you qucikly unlynch and end up on the wagon that forms to replace it

I was already wondering why no one ever asked. I was skimming ben's ISO at that time and noticed that his first post on D2 was a readslist with BEF as highest townread (#1287), while he was pretty null on him on D1. When I also saw that he felt later in #1358 the need to emphasize on BEF being town, which he hasn't really done ever before with anyone else I got nervous and suspected he might be an investigative with an inno on BEF. Hence I backed off, I was too nervous with two dead town PRs and ben being in hammer range while he was seemingly MIA and waited till he is back and would post again. Thought he was a PR, no idea how else to back off without giving anything away.

[Skellen]

How is RCEnigma town? Can anybody give reasons? I realize I’m probably bias OMGUS tunnel, but i really feel like this is scumHim.

Originally I was townreading him for the way he develoed his scumread on you and could back it up in a comprehensible way imo. Meanwhile you two are throwing several past games at each other though that all say conveniently different things so that I am not so sure there is much I can or should take from that.

If anything atm I share his observations regarding BEF and think his play around bob looks pretty town indicative imo. Like he figured early out that bob might be a possible protective due to his comment on your Jailkeeper claim and his early townlean on bob proves that. I would think if he is scum he would push bob to get the claim, but instead when the momentum was there when people were suspecting bob (skitter, DDL I think) he took a stance against them with saying for the first time he thinks that bob is town. And there weren't any other serious pushes against bob that would indicate that his partners would do it, LUV and tris were for a moment on him, but the latter was town. DDL was still there, but he was on you. Oh, and you had bob as possible vote option for a while if I am not remembering wrong, but that's all.

To be fair, there would be a chance that bob was supposed to be saved for the nk and it became unnecessary due to the tris flip and them knowing you are the other protective (if you are town). But I still think there might have been a stronger wagon on bob as there was a wagon shortly before the tris wagon happened and RCE even said then that the attempt of the bob wagon is scum indicative.

This feels realy strange to me. Why woudl he talk about me beign saved for teh night kill. Makes me feel that if tris hadnt fliped doc i woudl ahve been killed N1

I was explaining why I thought RCE is town by handling his D1 observation on you. Saving you for the nk meant that due to lack of any serious pushes on you during the first day it would mean scum (if scum!RCE) would kill you off with the nk instead but changed their mind because of tris already flipping Doc and with town!Pret already having claimed another protective with Jailkeeper (as RCE was suspecting you to be Doc).

[Skellen]

I def think if any player was playing for no lynch it was skellen.

See how she just goes for the that had just dropped back down to l-4. She only pushed it back up to l-3.

While tris is on l-2 and she doesnt even comment on it. I woudl ahve thoght she would have voiced an opinion on teh state of afairs. After all a no lynch only helps town. So i woudl ahev expected her to have concidered a tris lynch. All the whiel she had her voting sitting on player as she says to pressure BEF. BEF dies n2. A player she couldnt get wagon to form on.

A player she went to put pressure on even though players were distracted by teh pret and drd saga. Will they wont they

Pretty sure there was enough time till deadline back then like 10 hours or something like that. At least I know that there was enough time that I knew I could at least check in for 1-2 times that day before deadline.

I said in my last post on D1 that I wanted to reread some stuff including tris, because I wasn't seeing the strong scumreads there as I had the tendency to rather lean town on her earlier (#527), but I was rather reserved about it as I needed to check some stuff back then (obviously nothing came out of it so I didn't bother to came back to that). I wasn't scumreading her strongly nor was I townreading her strongly, I only had a minor reason to scumread her while there were her natural sounding townreads that were town-indicative for me. Hence I said I

could

compromise on her, but I would rather reread her to be sure and only go there if Pret really had no chance anymore.

So what with voting Pret up to L-3? There was enough time and that was the compromise that I preferred over tris. I already pointed that out to you. skitter was still leaning scum on Pret, which seemed to me stronger than her dedication to a tris compromise and tris had yet to show up and could have voted Pret too. L-1 was still in range at that point. Why should I push a lynch I am even less sure about it when there was still the chance to get a Pret lynch through?

I also already said why I wasn't going after Pret for most of D1 before. Heck, I spent a whole wall (#523) to point out what is bothering me about Pret despite suspecting him. I never vote until I gather enough confidence to back a vote up and Pret is pretty hard to read for me.

Killing BEF in N2 because I couldn't get a wagon on him on D1? That's dumb. He was pretty lynchable post-D2 via VCA. He wouldn't have been a threat to scum!me either. I would never kill him off there as scum, that's just not how I act as scum, I was literally in all my scum games confronted with the problem that I had to kill someone off that makes more sense than me, I know what I would need to do as scum here.

[Skellen]

Tbh my first thought here is that I would be mildly surprised if both Jailkeeper and Roleblocker are town here. They literally do the same, just that the Jailkeeper can also directly protect. With all these protective roles the Jailkeeper sticks out with being the strongest role here, despite being limited to two shots. The Doc was indecisive, the Bodyguard dies if successful and the Roleblocker is a weaker Jailkeeper without working both ways.

At this point I wonder if the Tracker was more in for confirming all the protective roles. I just don't see why the Tracker Enabler though. Is there a world where a scum Tracker Enabler would make sense in this setup? (ftr I townread ben, this is more hypothetically)

The Visitor looks so random in all of this. Not only does the Tracker have to target by chance the Visitor to make use of him, there are also potentially two town roles that could block him or the Visitor. Why does he even exist? And why the freaking Tracker Enabler that gives scum even more opportunity to shut down BOTH town investigatives?

This is some super frustrating shit. I would say one of Pret or A50 is scum here. I feel like A50's role fits even less in here, but why would he even claim something like that? But I have trouble with believing the Jailkeeper claim. There are like 5 possibilities to block the nk among 10 townies. I mean sure, the Bodyguard dies, but that's way too much.

[Skellen]

tbh lets just lynch pret. how about that

Probably.

[Skellen]

I’m also limited, so I disagree that I’m as strong as a full Roleblocker or doctor. I also had high chance of blocking a town PR, which I would like to add, I absolutely did not do. As scum, there’s zero reason for me to let any of that go through and target RCEnigma.

And if you’re pushing I’m scum not doing it, then that was dangerous for me to target RCE because if he was something to get results, he could have countered it

Well, as long as you had your shots you were and during the first two nights most of the town power usually is still alive. Honestly, the combination Roleblocker/Jailkeeper throws me off. I can see each of both roles being in here with the other protectives, but both together?

That's true, which is why I believe your role is probably true, just the alignment is questionable. Unless you and RCE are both scum and it's safe to claim the jk shots on him. Although I think there is only a slim chance that this is the case here.

My dilemma with you is that I dislike your role in the whole context of what we know about the setup, but the timing of your original claim on D1 is weird (for scum) and it would be a conveniently lucky guess again to fakeclaim a protective in a protective themed game that early. By play I think you could be town, at least more than A50. ffs I have no clue what you are.

[Skellen]

So am I the only one who is bothered by the mechanic around loyal Visitor/Tracker Enabler?

I mean let's assume we have a Roleblocker and a Jailkeeper and both Visitor and Tracker could be blocked, let's ignore that the Tracker would have to find the Visitor first or one of them dies despite all these protectives running around. I can buy that scum has to kill the Tracker to neutralize the Visitor, but additionally to that there is a Tracker Enabler that would basically neutralize two town PRs in one strike if scum hits him? That doesn't sound right? Or is that justified as "balance" to the high amount of protectives?

[Skellen]

As for Pret and Bob, I 100% agree it makes more sense if at least one of them is scum as having a JK and RB in this type of set up is def overkill as well. An oddity I was thinking about is, if you are a 2-shot JK.. why blow both shots the first two nights? The purpose of a limited role that strong is wait until you have a realistic suspect then strike. I say a N2 or even N3 for the first use is a better way to use the role.

To be fair he almost got lynched on D1 and town!Pret knew he wouldn't be the nk and that scum would push for his lynch again the next day(s), so he had no choice but to use his shots as long as he could.

[Skellen]

Would certainly explain the tracker enabler. Wouldnt be suprised if its actualy a scum tracker enabler from just looking at the set up.

If we caught the the scum tracker enabler. Then we kill one scum but lose the trackers ability. So we dont have it to catch more.

All comes down to is tacker enabler to balance the other pr. So protectives cant chain protect the tracker. Or scum tracker to ofset the loss of one scum.

Yep, a scenario with a scum Tracker Enabler is something that I was coming around more and more recently. I think A50's role and ben's role are competing here. Either the Visitor is nonsense and the Tracker Enabler is the way to bypass all the protectives or the Tracker Enabler is scum, which would basically be an (expendable) informed scum. I can see that as counter for scum against two investigatives that are surrounded by several protectives (where two could act against town roles too).

Both didn't seem to immediately realize though that their own roles could suggest that the other could possibly be scum.

Overall ben was giving me a far more positive impression than A50, who seems rather lackluster ever since D2. I am initially leaning on the simple alternative that the Visitor is just fake. Still a weird fakeclaim though.

[Skellen]

Ah wait, ben was immediately on A50, even voted him very quickly. That looks reasonable to me.

[Skellen]

Everytime I come into this thread I feel the urge to "do something the new rules say I should not mention in-thread", but I try to force myself to play the game because it was my decision to jump into it. I am so lost though and -frankly- I am also demotivated by the flips, as I feel we lost our strongest PRs already. We are only left with a JK (if Pret is Town) and maybe one other -even weaker- PR.

Then again this is a post I can absolutely see coming from Visitor!A50 with his comment that the strongest PRs already died as him mentioning a weaker PR (himself, the now useless Visitor).

[Skellen]

Too sleepy~

Will reread A50 and ben tomorrow. I feel it's worth a try. While I feel ben is townier, A50's play looks on first sight also more or less plausible. Also interesting that the ben wagon would have been all town at it's peak if Pret and A50 are both town. But that depends on what Pret is going to flip as it looks like he is going to end up as today's lynch.

[Skellen]

The problem is Ben wouldn't come up with tracker enabler on his own. It would be a suggest from a strong player that can make a claim make sense in the setup.

The suspects stay the same, largely.

I wasn't assuming that this role was faked though and he would just have claimed what he is, just different alignment.

I am somewhere between both Pret/A50 being scum and both being town, your #2118 is giving me slightly the creeps with the narrative that the D1 wagons have to contain scum. But I guess we will see and it's just my paranoia.

[Skellen]

Eh, crappy phrasing by me. I meant the wagons itself, not the people on it. Because regarding that we are mostly on the same page.

[Skellen]

What the hell. lol

[Skellen]

I am amazed he pulled off another claim just like that. One of the reasons why I was conflicted about Pret and thought he mght be town was that he actually left it at his Jailkeeper claim for the whole game without any shenanigans. I have trouble buying that he didn't paid attention to LUV's claim though if he basically had a possible guilty on him?

Normally I am with bob here that lynching LUV would be the way to verify him. If LUV flips red, considering he didn't see A50 targeting BEF, lynching A50 after LUV would be the next move and if he flips green, then it would have been a bus and we lynch Pret. Or we just lynch Pret first and we see if it's bullshit, if he flips green LUV/A50 are scum. But this is weird. Also that one of his abilities overlaps with bob's role.

[Skellen]

I mean he pushed for A50's lynch most of the day, considering he might not have seen A50 visiting BEF that would make sense. But when it was pretty likely that he would end up as lynch he didn't outed his possible guilty on LUV despite him already claiming but also instead joins bob on voting me, although he knew A50 would have been lying? Yeah, no.

I guess he is at L-1? Then intent to hammer by me.

[Skellen]

Oh, come on. Again denied by self-hammer.

[Skellen]

Honestly the fact we are both alive makes me super suspicious. I'm a bodyguard, even if you hit my target you get a kill. Though with my defence of pret and disengagement yesterday I can see why you might want to leave me alive.

If anything the DDL kill imo confirms that among the PR claims is one scum, otherwise they would have tried to get rid of the last bits of town power. I mean if you and bob are both town and the second scum would go down today then bob will effectively become a 1-shot Cop as you can buy at least one further day for bob with your save. The fact that they are willing to take this risk shows they prefer to dwell in the wifom surrounding the PR claims.

I would say one scum among the PR claims and one among the remaining VTs. However I can also see a world where two PRs might be scum, but not sure on that yet. Although among the VTs that only leaves LUV to me. RCE is most likely town by play and the Pret scum flip gives him enough credit too.

Among the PRs Bodyguard and Tracker Enabler look plausible to me in combination with indecisive Doc and Tracker and I kind of think both ben and Mizzy pulled off their claims in a believable manner. Tbh the only thing that pings me strongly about Mizzy was his eagerness on D1 to start the tris flash wagon if it couldn't have been DDL instead of Pret. Not necessarily feeling it rn, but will review him just in case as I could see it going by the kills.

I can see a Roleblocker being in and bob striked me overall as town and still does. The thing that bothers me about him is still how he handled Pret considering Pret claimed almost the same role as he claims to have. While he pressured Pret, he never did it in a threatening manner. But this might be personality based as if I would be in his shoes I would have reacted different to Pret's claim, but I want to look closer on this again. Otherwise I was nervous that bob hasn't been the nk target so far as it seems that Pret recognized bob early as protective PR too. But maybe he dealt with him through using both his jk-shots on bob and that's why.

A50's claim is still the one that doesn't fit in to me. His role looks just too strange in context with the other roles. Additionally the way Pret played around him, I need to reread that, it was odd.

Atm I am inclined to say it's LUV/A50, eventually switch one of them with bob. Have yet to review Mizzy. But bob, Mizzy and A50 were on the DDL counterwagon on D1, the latter two also on tris together with LUV. One scum definitely was on the DDL wagon. LUV is there as VCA strongly suggests scum!LUV.

[Skellen]

So, I'm also of the mindset A50/Luv are not scum together. Think it was Skellen that made this observation originally which is an interesting wrinkle. She based it on Luv's vote on A50 which had a real chance of going through instead of salads lynch. But also a pret/A50/Luv team would have had to triangle buss all game. It doesn't feel like a pret led team based on dayplay.

Yeah, this triangle bus is also exactly what makes me wonder here. I am fairly certain one of A50/LUV is scum. A50 and Pret only started seriously voting each other on D3 (that "spicy" vote on D2 aside) where it became more or less apparent that it would most likely end in a Pret lynch, I am not sure if Pret was seriously trying to stay alive or just gave up trying later.

While I said LUV voting A50 into the threeway 3-votes tie on D2 makes him unlikely being scum with A50 I also thinks it depends on how confident scum would be to get the ben wagon through. Basically both pret and A50 could have joined the salad wagon just in case. I am not sure if A50 was townreading Saladman at that time though, I only have it in mind he said it when he sheeped Saladman to the ben wagon.

[Skellen]

Anyway as I said yesterday, if Pret flips red then I see LUV as very likely partner to him.

In #929 he voted tris up to L-1 which brought tris into hammer range for Pret who had yet to vote tris at that point. Before that the vc between Pret and tris was 4:5 (with tris yet to vote).

On D2 with #1541 he votes A50 into the threeway 3 votes tie with Pret and Saladman as if I recall it correctly the Saladman wagon didn't originally had many supporters so had less chances to go through (although it ultimately happened nonetheless when the ben wagon fell apart).

I also didn't liked #1447, it made the Pret wagon look like a policy/fear lynch although there were actual reasons for voting him on D1/early D2. Same with his comment on debating the skitter kill, considering the skitter kill most likely came from Pret.

And again on D3 with #2132 when he joined Pret on A50, which made it between A50 and Pret 2:3. To be fair here, Pret left the A50 wagon after that, but I have yet to read if Pret was accepting his lynch at this point already or not.

Literally all his votes were in favour of Pret.

Anyway VOTE: LUV

[Skellen]

We should be going A50/Luv today. 1 is guaranteed scum even if we mislynch the townie of the two today.

Pretty much where I am at. I feel strong about LUV by vca and his play, but was also considering if A50 first might be strategically smarter as his flip would give more insight on the setup as Visitor is the weirdest role that we have among the claims. Although I think that only influences the Enabler and Roleblocker claims. But then again I am too dumb with setup stuff to draw useful conclusions from that.

Have been a bit hesitant about A50 this game as I thought his disengagement with this game might be something that rather comes from town, at least it felt kind of genuine. But Pret's feinted vote switch to A50 on D2 and asking for a claim when the ben wagon fell apart is odd, especially because he tied Saladman with A50 instead into a 4:4 vc. Don't know why he wouldn't push for the claim there if A50 is town, especially as both seem to have enough history to each other, unless both are scum and he wanted to withhold A50's claim till massclaim. He pressured A50 nonetheless to claim first in the massclaim though.

[Skellen]

I’m town and I can prove it. Just give me time.

VOTE: Skellen

Well, we are one day away from lylo, I think you had a fair share of time.

What happened to your A50 scumread? Did it change due to Pret's flip?

[Skellen]

Have reread Mizzy's ISO today and don't really feel in joining the paranoia around that slot. RCE is right that by votes he doesn't look good (especially D1, but so do others), but I still feel the way he acts around his claim felt pretty authentic with his questions about his role. Also the interaction with Pret doesn't look like SvS by #1800 as I would find it strange that Mizzy would point out to his partner that his (Pret's) setup spec regarding interaction Bodyguard/Strongman is wrong. I would think if they cooked this fakeclaim strategy early up (and they would have given Mizzy's early crumb) a mistake like this looks odd, I don't think Pret would have made that false assumption, especially if Mizzy seems to have backed his info up with mod advice (well, if he has asked of course).

[Skellen]

@RCE:
Who do you see as more likely being scum among A50/LUV?

[Skellen]

Based on their play or Prets?

Both!

Also what do you make out of A50's "apathy" (I dunno, he feels like that) since the middle of D2? I figure you have more experience with him, does that tell anything about him?

[Skellen]

I don't really get LUV's thought process atm. Like he implies now that he is no VT. Considering that would add up to 6 PRs including the dead ones I don't feel it's natural to go after a lynch on a VT claim and not even trying to sort among the absolutely not too many PR claims. Especially if he was showing clear distrust in A50's Visitor claim yesterday like here:

Visitor feels unlikely for ongoing reasons.

And now he just abandons it just like that? Why?

[Skellen]

I feel like the push on me is in order to kill all VTs off. Once I am lynched and RCE gets killed tonight all VTs are dead and scum can hide in lylo among all PR claims. This stinks.

[Skellen]

prod dodge.

[Skellen]

Actually I don't really see how it would become obvious if Mizzy is fakeclaiming or not by tomorrow. It might kind of depend on what kind of flip we get today, but either his slot dies next night or not. The latter would only indicate that the likelihood of scum among Mizzy/bob is probably just higher than today (still think it's bob then) or am I missing something?

[Skellen]

This is such a desperate and convenient bullshit claim.

The Novice for the lack of two N1 kills, the only successful kill on that night where the person who is in the 1v1 with him for today's lynch right now was roleblocked. Shooting BEF also looks odd considering he was one of the first players LUV took out from his D1 PoE (#741, #742) in context of #290 which basically implies that bef was in his opinion not one of the most obstructionist or useless players, yet he "shot" because mislynchbait. Also not mentioning bef ever again on D2 regarding eventual changes with his read on him. Not to forget he can wifom again next day in lylo after next night when there is only one kill and that would be his "vig shot" with bob surviving with blocking someone.

But yeah, with that he is basically caught. It's up to you guys with taking the shorter or the longer way now.

[Skellen]

Considering I think that RCE is town, it's gg. I think it was A50/bob and it's just waiting for the hammer at this point. Although I don't get why they no killed this night, just to push me/A50 team. It wouldn't have mattered if they would have killed Amrun or RCE.

I think they no killed at N2 too to "clear" Pret with a successful save to bring him into lylo. With the jk block and bob's roleblock they could have lined up the necessary two mislynches for the perfect win. My wild guess at it.

The way the last day's ending got rushed before either me or ben had the chance to unvote as Amrun/RCE requested was shady af, like the realized the opportunity they had with the me/LUV situation.

It doesn't matter anymore though.

[Skellen]

Me/A50 doesn't make much sense btw.

There is no reason for me to derail the ben wagon on D2 at L-1 with A50 being the counterwagon and not going anywhere after that for a while. There is no reason to unvote ben without forcing his claim out first (I mean he claimed anyway, but that was not to be expected), let alone to leave out the chance to lynch one of the death-tunnelers on Pret, making his lynch less likely. There is no merit in going for Saladman instead who was no threat at all to me or Pret.

Not to forget that I was even aware of the ties between me and A50 and pointed them out myself. I would distance the hell out of that as scum, especially as it was apparent that Pret might have gone down sooner or later anyway.

Instead look who tried to talk ben out of Pret to move him to Saladman who actually tied Saladman with A50. It were Pret and bob.

[Skellen]

People are way too easy on bob.

I just played a game recently where we had the situation that a Roleblocker got counterclaimed by a Jailkeeper claim and the major town consensus was instantly that these two roles never cooexist both as town PRs. Only one was pushing the narrative that both could be and that was scum. To be fair that was a 9p game, but bob was way too tame on Pret considering Roleblocker and Jailkeeper are way too similar, even in a 13p game with that many town PRs.

Many people seem to overlook that bob was townreading Pret at the end of D3 and went for LUV after Pret changed his claim. This is particularly remarkable because Pret claimed 1-shot Roleblocker in his JOAT claim, never ever a town Roleblocker townreads someone and tries out the "LUV guilty" who has literally the same ability as you would have.

bob doesn't look better at VCA either as he was on D1 on the counterwagon to Pret, on D2 both on the ben and Saladman wagons as Pret and on D3 pushing outside of Pret. And all that although they had supposedly the same roles.

[Skellen]

A50 is scum with his claim though. Never I buy the Visitor claim with a scum Jailkeeper, a Tracker Enabler and a Vig.

[Skellen]

It was to prevent partner skellen from becoming the lynch that day. Which I get.

Or it's exactly the narrative that he wanted to establish with his hammer.

The very fact that people are fine with lynching me over A50 today speaks for itself. The "guilty" on A50 is stronger than on me as in my case there could always exist the possibility that LUV and scum both targeted BEF simultaneously. If we leave no kill shenanigans out of course.

[Skellen]

If you believe bob, it’s A50/Skellen scum team.

Skellen, is bob scum?

Yes, I think so. I mean I know I am town and considering that LUV actually killed BEF I know that the lack of scum kill due to bob's roleblock is nonsense. The only options that are viable from my point of view are as I said that they no killed to give Pret some town cred for the next day and use the roleblocks and jk shot to push mislynches (which failed due to LUV's shot). Or scum and LUV both targeted BEF, but what were the odds that both scum and Vig target such an unlikely nk target as BEF at the same time? I am not really sure if I should believe that.

Anyway regarding bob I still think it's odd he has never been targeted by nk or never got even pushed for a lynch by scum despite Pret clearly recognizing bob as protective PR early.

And his progression on Pret is simply weird and doesn't add up. I mean you said it yourself, after the Doc flip and with your Bodyguard knowledge you instantly thought of Pret as scum. He did so too, he instantly came up with a scum Jailkeeper on D1 (there is also the fact that he first spoke about Doc and Jailkeeper on D1, which is still weird), but ultimately went for DDL, who became the counterwagon to Pret in the end before tris happened.

Then on D2 he went against Pret and later he faded slowly away and left Pret and ended up on Saladman, which is also not so clear why as he said shortly before voting Saladman that he is sure that between your slot and A50 definitely is scum with leaning town on you. Yet he didn't went for A50, as A50 was 4:2 in lead. No specific reason why he preferred Saladman over A50.

On D3 repeat, some skirmish with Pret, voting him, then he slowly drifts into another direction with pushing me. He even townread Pret after the massclaim and actually went for LUV after Pret's JOAT claim with the 1-shot Roleblock. That doesn't feel natural for someone that supposedly would be a Roleblocker, he never seriously pushed his Jailkeeper counterpart but instead always ended up on the same wagons or the counterwagons.

[Skellen]

On another note why am I scum for me "waffling" about Pret? Was it insincere? What did scum!me gain from it? What would I have hoped to achieve with that? What actually stopped me from hard defending Pret and pushing elsewhere or bussing Pret or A50?

[Skellen]

That said, I am not sure what to make out of the lack of nk last night yet. I am inclined to say that A50 is imo the safest lynch today, in case I am wrong on bob. My only problem with scum!bob is that I don't know why they wouldn't kill Amrun or RCE off as with three votes needed to lynch it is way easier to pull the final mislynch off.

[Skellen]

That said, I am not sure what to make out of the lack of nk last night yet. I am inclined to say that A50 is imo the safest lynch today, in case I am wrong on bob. My only problem with scum!bob is that I don't know why they wouldn't kill Amrun or RCE off as with three votes needed to lynch it is way easier to pull the final mislynch off.

Actually after sleeping over it it makes very well sense. A50 looked pretty scummy with his quickhammer yesterday and with me locked with the N2 block the lynch would either has been me or A50. In case A50 would eat rope over me bob's guilty on A50 and A50 flipping red would give scum!bob more credibility, so that with another "block" on me and no kill the game would definitely be over. It's basically a foolproof strategy, it's win/win either way for bob.

Another side effect is that basically all townies with Amrun, ben and RCE gave intent to vote me if LUV would flip green (or in Amrun's case independent of that as she was voting me anyway). So in order to prevent my mislynch I would need to convince all three to direct the lynch to scum instead of only two. RCE could have been possible as he is among us most familiar with Pret and the kind of plays he would make, but I doubt ben or Amrun would ever change their minds (and even then - both!). Checkmate it is.

[Skellen]

That said, I am not sure what to make out of the lack of nk last night yet. I am inclined to say that A50 is imo the safest lynch today, in case I am wrong on bob. My only problem with scum!bob is that I don't know why they wouldn't kill Amrun or RCE off as with three votes needed to lynch it is way easier to pull the final mislynch off.

On another note why am I scum for me "waffling" about Pret? Was it insincere? What did scum!me gain from it? What would I have hoped to achieve with that? What actually stopped me from hard defending Pret and pushing elsewhere or bussing Pret or A50?

I do find it insincere, yes. Early on it was a stronger bus, which I noted, only to crumble as it became more and MORE obvious he was scum. It looked like you were trying to play both sides of the fence, which makes sense since at times it looked inevitable he would die, and at others like he might be saved.

And WIFOM it is, but Pret said he wasn’t responsible for the BEF kill and it seemed genuine.

I disagree about this, I always gave reasons why I had my problems with settling on Pret. My insecurity around Pret is if anything rather a personality trait than something ai. Especially because it became more and more obvious he was scum there was no reason not to bus. One true quote by Pret on D3 is "Read the gamestate", it was pretty damn clear that he would have gone down ultimately at D3 either way, playing both sides makes as scum no sense. Either you adapt to the incoming Pret lynch or you actively try hard to push elsewhere to prevent it. I did neither and as you can see I wouldn't have achieved anything with it as scum. It would just be dumb and never ever a scum team would be unprepared for an incoming Pret lynch.

[Skellen]

I’d rather lynch Skellen because a no kill gambit to frame whomever bob blocked makes more sense last night than the previous night.

Don't think so, I just gave reasons why a no kill gambit from scum!me's point of view makes no sense here.

In N2 a no kill would have strengthened Pret's position explicitly to actively take control of the gamestate. And even then there is the fact that scum knew for a fact that there was a Vig. Either they tracked/watched LUV/BEF in N2 and that's why they knew or they have a Rolecop and used it on LUV in N1 as A50 was the first person in this game to bring up a Vig at the beginning of D2. So they always could have played around it with the knowledge of an eventual Vig shot.

So in any case scum definitely knew at the latest since N2 that LUV was a Vig and the fact that bob pushed for LUV at the end of D3 just strengthens my belief that bob is scum.

[Skellen]

I honestly don't understand why people wave bob through just like that.

Like I think that Amrun's slot is town, and while she draws the right conclusion from her point of view as Bodyguard regarding Pret she dismisses bob's unnatural play around Pret as Roleblocker and I just don't understand it.

Like I can only encourage people to reread bob with the asssumption he would seriously be a Roleblocker the way he acted throughout the game while always paying attention the VCs where bob's votes always ended up in the end.

[Skellen]

The thing that makes me pause on bobscum is not last night, but the previous night.

Why would scum purposefully no kill that night?

Alternatively, why would they go for BEF?

I can’t find a viable strategy as scum that I believe on this night for either scenario.

You have to consider that Pret claimed on D2 that he was limited to two shots as Jailkeeper and some people were giving him the benefit of doubt with leaving him to do the second jk shot in order to prove himself. A no kill would have given him credibility and the possibility to pick someone out as "conftown" or potential killer. Add that with bob's roleblock target in N2 and with two mislynches left they would have had two possible mislynches lined up as at least one of them would potentially be scum given the lack of nk and even in case of a mislynch they would have excuses that it wouldn't backfire on themselves. A no kill on N2 wouldn't have changed anything besides turning D4 lylo into D4 mylo. LUV's Vig kill threw a wrench into it.

Also, I don’t think you responded strong enough for a town member that is basically being guiltied. A town member wrongly rolecopped would be more up in arms and sure that bob is scum imo.

Huh? I literally had LUV/A50/bob as my PoE yesterday and LUV turned out to be town, so as far as I am concerned the case is crystal clear. As I said I am pretty sure that A50 is scum and I think I pointed enough into bob's direction. I only paused at bob for a moment because I had think through if that would add up with a no kill last night. But I think my reasons for townreading you, RCE and ben are solid enough and as I pointed out I can make sense out of bob doing that, so...

Also to be frankly a reason why I don't go that strong is that I know I will get mislynched anyway, I am not charismatic enough for that, heck I even got once almost mislynched as conftown. I don't truly believe I can convince anyone here, I mean it's not that I don't get that I am from your point of views the most obvious choice. I am fighting this fight for the sake of it to at least claim in post-game that I didn't gamethrew. It's not about my conviction, all I can do is to try to point out the things that lead to A50/bob to make you see that, but that's it.

[Skellen]

I’m not really willing to lose to bobscum but at the same time, I’m kinda there since I can’t find a truly plausible explanation for bobscum play. A no kill and mislynch at that point would mean he would probably die the next day. So even if bob is scum, his scum partner would be most likely Skellen.

I am not sure if you are mixing something up here, but the no kill last night didn't changed anything. We are in lylo (well, technically mylo, but we don't have anything to stop kills), so a mislynch today means game over. Me/bob as scum team is no zebra, it's an unicorn.

[Skellen]

Wait - why would scum know of a vig? Don’t get that.

A50's first post on D2, which was the first time someone brought a Vig up in this game:

So.. a Tracker inadvertently lol!hammered a Doctor, and still got shot at night?? Was this a Vig shot by any chance? Pretentious: Who did you target?

Here you have A50 actively fishing for the Vig later on D2:

I'm confused by all the talk back and forth with so many assumptions being taken for granted.

The one that confuses me most is WHY are you all accepting that skitter was shot by scum and not a Town Vig? Can we at least wait to see if a Vig claims it? Because THAT changes the whole game.

I am not the Vig

for starters. Everyone else should also claim explicitly whether they are a Vig who shot skitter. If we end up with no Vig claims THEN (and only then) will I accept that scum shot the player that lol!hammered the Doctor. It doesn't make much sense to me because I personally would have second guessed skitter for this move (and it's pretty unusual for her to lol!hammer), so skitter was definitely going to be a lynch candidate today. I also didn't notice any crumbs (and generally speaking skitter doesn't do crumbs) so -again- that kill doesn't make much sense to come from scum, unless I'm missing something.

My other reason for not voting pretentious yet is basically WIFON, so it's weak sauce. (In my mind FL would shoot me over skitter 10 times out of 10, but he is also resourceful as scum to see that a kill on me could shade him so he opted for the second best choice which is to shoot skitter and then shade me for it, because if I was scum >I< would have shot skitter as a 1st choice, yet I swear I had nothing to with it). So is pretentious is scum he most likely shot skitter to implicate me and would have hit 2 birds with one shot as they say.

So, my main issue is to make sure skitter wasn't a town kill, and then I will consider the game status based on facts not expectations and make belief. Thank you

And this from Pret at the end of D3, which indicates they might have gotten the info in N2:

Also, LUV killed BEF.

Pret's post makes it pretty clear. Personally I think it's more likely that they knew about LUV only in N2, because I would expect they would push for a LUV lynch otherwise on D2 which never happened, especially because A50 was LUV's strongest scumread. Then again Pret could have used his second jk-shot to protect A50 from a Vig shot, but who knows.

[Skellen]

You vote pret day one after the wagon has already dissipated. With no actual push on him.

Tris is at l-2. A wagon that does not have pret on it. The alternative lynch and the player activly pressuring skitter to vote tris.

If your vote was genuine there would of been an actual push on pret. And it woudl have been earlier. Instead you have your vote loitering on bef in that crucial time.

Sigh, we had this conversation 1-2 times already.

Just because there is another wagon without Pret on it (it was predictable he would have gone there to save his own skin anyway) doesn't mean I have to join that wagon. If I would have decided during my reread on tris otherwise, then maybe I could have, but not like that at that time. I had Pret in my D1 lynchpool and at the end of the day he was the lynch I would have preferred, so I voted him. Maybe I didn't pushed it strongly, but I dont know either what else I should have done besides parroting myself, I said my reasons for voting and was fine with leaving my vote on him.

I told you already why I didn't went there earlier. It's not my fault that Bef needed two days to respond to me and I dislike to let people off the hook just for disappearing without finding any good reason by myself.

Then you have your salad vote. You are on him when he is at 3 votes but you jump on ben as soon as he votes salad. Only then to jump back on him when salad gets to l-3. All the whiel you never actual try and question him. You just keep using it to talk about how he is scum with pret.

1574 You talk about how you are trying to probe pret. Yet you rejoing the salad wagon when you had the choice to have voted a50. Even though in post 1674 you say he is trying to avoid pret. In other words you are saying a50 and pret are partners. Yet you lynch the player you said you partly voted for to probe pret whom you think is partnered with A50. And you dont vote A50. You never voted for pret that day.

Ok, hold on.

First ben hadn't voted for Saladman yet at that point, so I don't know what you are talking about. And yeah, I went to ben when Saladman went there. As I said the Saladman wagon wasn't going anywhere and his ben vote surprised me a bit as I was expecting a suvivalistic vote on A50 as it looked he was gearing up to go there before, so that was a townie point for him that I gave him the benefit of doubt then and ben was also in my scumpool (#1488).

When I left the ben wagon I wanted to wait to hear more from ben to see what he had to say about the most recent developments as I was suspecting him to be a PR. After that there were only Saladman and A50 as viable wagons left. And I said that I didn't felt any strong scum vibes from A50 besides some minor things. In fact if he would have been scum, then it was dependent on Pret being scum too and at that point of the game I wasn't convinced anymore about Pret being scum (again #1488), more tending town at that point as a good part of my D2 was arguing with him. Pret/A50 avoiding each other was an observation in #1764 that made me wary, but still I wasn't thinking of Pret as scum there nor was I scumreading A50 more than Saladman.
So obviously I go rather to the Salad wagon, there is no reason to pursue a wagon I am not convinced of.

Not trying to question Saladman and talking only how he is scum with Pret? Sure, if you leave any context out. I literally started questioning Saladman right out of the gate on D2 about his strange heel turn read on tris on D1, not only once (#1059), not twice (#1300), but thrice (#1350) and he avoided me everytime. At one point the point is reached where I have enough of it and vote or leave my vote there, which I did once I was done arguing with Pret. Similarly with LUV on D4 pre-claim. Btw I only said it once that Saladman could be scum with Pret and that scenario was only one part of the reason why I voted him too, not even major, you are trying to make here more out of a rand remark than it was.

But you go from saying there partners to defending him in the same post. So we have you not once directly trying to interact with salad yet happy to rejoin it. While your are defending the player that is the alternative lynch.

You say you dont like those voting for salad yet you still vote for him.

And your response to mizzy questioning of you voting for ben. Is that salad wasnt going through so you voted ben. Other than giving the reason you originaly voted sald to prob vet, you only say salad lynch wasnt going anywhere. You then go on about a50 and pret.

Now you are just misrepping me here, or even blatantly lying. I never defended A50 on D2. I said three things about A50, once that I thought A50 was tied to Pret till that point (#1488), but as I wasn't thinking of scum!Pret there, so I had to reevaluate as I had to with BEF. Second 1574 where I was saying what is scummy to me about A50 and why I thought ben was scummier to me. I didn't went on A50/Pret there, so I don't know what you mean. The only scenario where I could have seen Pret as scum was with Saladman/LUv at that point. And third #1764 my observation about A50/Pret. And I just explained why I went for Saladman. None of these were defending A50 against anyone, having others as higher scumreads and voting elsewhere is no defending. That you are trying to paint this image of me here is pretty telling.

Having people on a wagon who I don't feel good about isn't a strong criterion to not vote there, otherwise I could probably never vote anyone. I said myself that I might overthink things with Pret and several people said about BEF that it is normal for him to appear that scummy. Also bussing is also a thing. The wagon composition doesn't changed the fact that I was scumreading Saladman stronger than A50.

[Skellen]

The only point you could of killed me was night 1 and are you real saying that i am higher priority kill then skitter?

Skellen you are you real finding it weird i woudl talk about a town doc and scum jailkeeper. Based on the setup in the last game i played. Where i was a scum 2 shot jailkeeper and town had a doc. And putting myself in position that if I die I can be safe in the knowledge that it condems pret. Oh and why do you think its weird i would first talk about a doc skellen?

No, there probably not considering that was most likely a Pret driven kill. If at anytime, then it would have been N2. I just don't buy that Pret recognizes a protective PR in you and never attempts to kill or push for your lynch. As did no one else. Otherwise he would have used his jk-shots on you, which would mean you were blocked the first two nights by him. And that would mean your guilty on me is even weaker, as not only could scum simultaneously have targeted BEF but you could as well have been blocked by Pret at that time. A fact that you have been completely ignoring and neglected as if you would know it's not something to reconsider for your results. And yet you push me over A50 here.

Tbh I was wondering if you coming up with a scum Jailkeeper that early in the game might already have been tmi, but the thing that looks off about your Doc comment on D1 is that it looked like it was that what you originally were intending to soft on D1, just that you had to change it a little after tris already flipping Doc. I don't see why you would cover yourself as Town Doc if you are a Town Roleblocker.

The you go on about A50 a player you defended at end of day 2 when he was teh alterntaive lynch. You say A50 was the logical lynch based on my saying that one mizzy and a50 is scum based on VCA. Yet you also ignor my vca that says one of the voters on the pret wagon is scum. Originaly i thought it was salad but when he flipped town it solved the pret wagon for me.

I just like how even when you are talking about your own actions, you don't miss out to throw your misrep at me.
No, I don't ignore your vca regarding your theory that there was scum on the D1 Pret wagon. I just question why you would support the counterwagon to A50, when you explicitly said in #1687 that you are pretty sure among Mizzy/A50 is one scum with leaning town on Mizzy in the very same post. At the point of your Saladman vote A50 was leading 4:2 and there were only a ~10-12 hours left till deadline, so you had two scumreads up for the lynch and you went for the weaker wagon shortly before deadline. Which is funny considering how you are throwing shit at me for voting Pret and not tris a few hours before deadline at the end of D1.

[Skellen]

But my concern here is this: if it’s actually bob/Skellen, bob wins the game here.

If it helps, you have to consider that scum knew at latest since N2 that LUV vigged BEF. So bob knew on D3 during massclaim that on whoever he would claim his N2 block it would ultimately become a "guilty" on that player later once LUV truly claimed or got revealed. Put that into context that it was apparent that Pret might get lynched soon, so it wouldn't be pretty smart to claim this guilty on the other partner and drag the game into a 3-4p lylo instead of ending it early with claiming it on a townie.

It might also be helpful to look who proposed the claim order for the massclaim.

Skellen, LUV, DDL, RCE, Bob should be the order.

I believe those are all the unclaimed?

This is the order that Pret proposed and he put bob as last. Ultimately bob claimed before LUV did his VT claim, but that didn't changed much basically. It looks to me like they wanted to use that fake guilty to direct the lynch to me, supported by LUV's claim that he killed BEF and not scum.

[Skellen]

@mod:
Going to be V/LA till Friday. Should probably be able to check in sometimes though.

[Skellen]

With Skellen on V/LA for so long, we will get no additional info out of him.

Well, but what else do you want from me. I have contributed most of the content this day so far and tbh I feel I have pointed out everything that I needed to point out.

Again, so far no one could explain the rationale why scum!me would derail the ben wagon at L-1 before even forcing out the claim and not pushing anywhere else, when my supposedly scum partner A50 is the only viable counterwagon. Not only that we as scum team would need to rely on the other townies on the ben wagon choosing someone else but A50, but also Pret and me would have needed to go to Saladman and putting ourselves into the center of attraction even more, plus both of us would have needed to make a stance for why not going to the A50 wagon drawing even more associations. And that all for no reason, it would have hurt us more than just staying on the ben wagon.

But it doesn't even end there, because with ending the ben wagon and reviving the Saladman wagon instead I would have driven A50 into a corner, because he just townread Saladman strongly enough to sheep him, so A50 couldn't even vote the counterwagon to himself without contradicting himself and making him even more scummier.

Me and A50 are never a team here.

[Skellen]

Because we cant lynch both at the same time. Ive blocked both making a night kill so i know they are both scum. So I dont mind which order we lynch them in.

Also this is no town post by any means. If you are in lylo and a town PR with decisive results you make sure that you can absolutely rely on them as one premature mistake might lose the game.

bob isn't even pretending at this point anymore, he literally doesn't care and just wants to get the lynch through. He paints both guilties on me and A50 as equal despite them clearly not being equal considering that the block on me in N2 has a higher chance of being a false result with major variables like both scum and Vig targeting BEF or Pret jailing bob. He even voted me up to L-2 in lylo out of the gate without any second thoughts, although A50 would be the more reliable guilty here.

[Skellen]

Regarding the lynch I see two courses of action.

We lynch A50 as literally everyone scumreads him anyway and tbh his quickhammer is pretty damning and looks like a well calculated scum move. This is imo the safest lynch today.

Otherwise we resolve me/bob as the game basically gets decided with this.

Ultimately it depends if you need more time to resolve the latter.

I want to hear more from RCE though where he stands in all of this.

[Skellen]

So Amrun just conftowned herself, at least from my point of view. Not that I am surprised, but I am still glad that this eliminates any second paranoid thoughts because of the start of the tris flash wagon.

Will have more time in the evening, still want to hear from RCE. If he hammers me and is scum, then really well played, but I don't think he is.

VOTE: A50

[Skellen]

God, I suck. It's one of these games that you would just hope to end so that you can't make any more terrible decisions. So one of my strong townreads is wrong.

Going to reset my reads and reread the game then I guess.

[Skellen]

Some unstructured first thoughts before I do that though.

It's interesting that all ungated PRs are linked to an Enabler. Just the Bodyguard is not limited in any way, unless you consider the mechanic that he dies if he targets the right person as a limit. Then again I am a bit careful with the Tracker Enabler as I don't really see his purpose here considering that the Tracker was in the end a pretty weak role which was only there to confirm other PRs and their movements.

On first thought I am at a PoE of Amrun/ben. I think RCE is town, even although his underwhelming lylo play yesterday made me a bit wary. It's for two major reasons.

1. bob's thinking was pretty good when he blocked RCE after Pret's lynch as scum!RCE was after that in a pretty good spot to carry all kills out without getting blocked. Normally. They could have anticipated that bob would do such a turn and block RCE, but I consider that as pretty unlikely. And I don't see why A50 would carry out the kills over scum!RCE.

2. RCE didn't hammered me yesterday when he easily had the chance to do so. He couldn't have quickhammered me like A50 did on LUV, that would have made him suspicious, but he should have gotten around doing so without sticking out. RCE was literally the only one who could afford to mislynch me as scum, because as bob said himself, if I would have flipped town he would have blocked either A50 or Amrun thus having a 50% chance to block the last nk. For RCE there was no reason to avoid my lynch as bob didn't suspected him, particlarly because bob already blocked him anyway in N3. So RCE could have mislynched me and carried out the last nk to win the game, there was no reason to stall the game for scum!RCE. Only flaw in this argument is that it could be that RCE planned to come around hammering me in a long-winded way after some interactions with A50, but then bob spontaneously decided to switch from me to A50. However the RCE/A50 interactions yesterday feel like RCE would have settled on A50 anyway.

No idea between Amrun and ben yet. In any case there would be some serious bussing involved. ben tunneled Pret for three days and both Pret and A50 pushed for a ben lynch on D2 when they both themselves were already up with three votes. Also the ben wagon got derailed by town and the revived Saladman wagon also came from town. Unless they thought one of them would die anyway so they decided to do some serious distancing.
Mizzy would have bussed A50 on D2, going by A50's role that's actually something you can afford to do as in case of a lynch you would get both towncred and neutralize the Roleblocker.

[Skellen]

@RCE:
I remember you said yesterday or on D4 that you are ruling out Pret/Amrun for specific interactions. Can you point these out?

[Skellen]

VOTE: Skellen

With A50 gone, it’s time to wrap this one up.

How about we try to look at the whole picture?

Ironically both A50's role and the fact that bob blocked me in N2 should make me more likely town than scum. At least it semi-confirms that scum actually no killed in N2.

[Skellen]

My tinfoil says the roleblocker enabler was scum so maybe the tracker enabler is too.

BG would never need one; someone still dies.

If ben would be scum then the Tracker Enabler would be fake. It is heavily implied that the third scum is an investigative PR due to Pret accurately saying that LUV killed BEF. Something out of Tracker/Watcher/Rolecop I guess. That's why I am saying it is semi-confirmed that scum no killed in N2 as the first two only could have targeted LUV/BEF in N2. Rolecop could have targeted LUV in N1 however then I doubt that A50 would have fished for the Vig when he already knew that LUV was a Novice Vig.

Actually if the last scum would be a Tracker then a Tracker Enabler on town side would make a lot of sense. But that is a bit speculative of course.

[Skellen]

Well, I protected bob and then changed my mind last minute to Ben because of WIFOM.

I was worried bobscum would just kill me then say I must have protected him since A50 self hammered and didn’t give me a chance to say.

Now that I think about it, how is that related?

It wouldn't have mattered who you would have protected, no one could have verified who got targeted by you, anyone could have claimed that they were protected by you as long as you didn't claimed your target before the night.

[Skellen]

Tbh if you have made up your mind anyway then you can as well hammer me here already, RCE. I see no point in waiting for ben. Either he is scum, nothing changes or he is tunneling town and nothing changes either. And as I said I am pretty bad at convincing people, so I can't say anything that would change your mind anyway.

I pointed out yesterday why me and A50 goes against any logic and I think it should be clear by the third scum being an investigative who got their info on LUV in N2 that with me being blocked I never would have gotten that info as scum. Of course there is the angle that Pret could have jailed bob.

[Skellen]

For shits and giggles.

VOTE: Amrun

Looks more likely among these two if I go by Mizzy's actions.

I wouldn't be shocked about scum!ben either if I go by his effort in both lylos. Always wondered since my first game when scum would try the tunneling approach.

Anyway gg whoever it is among you two.

[Skellen]

Does that answers your question?

I can only check in later in the evening to reread stuff. Gun to my head I say it's you, I have some doubts about ben because of D2. Although ben's tone past the Pret lynch never felt right to me.

[Skellen]

Tbh I just hope it is not ben as I was the one who derailed the wagon on him on D2 and then choose Salad over A50. Saving two scum in one strike would utterly crush me.

Just wait for some gross shit like RCE coming in and revealing it was him all along.

[Skellen]

My heart didn’t want to think Skellen was scum and I should have listened to it.

Haha, it felt the same to me. I felt super uncomfortable voting you as I was hard townreading both Mizzy and you till the end, but the way things went down around scum on D2 made me think scum!ben would be too crazy of a thing. Should have paid more attention to ben, but it wouldn't have happened anyway, so what. Well played, scum.

Even although the last days were a bit frustrating with being trapped in a false guilty it was a pretty fun game. Also agree with Amrun that the setup was fun, I usually hate setup spec, but that was actually interesting to figure out. Thanks for modding, Plum.

[Skellen]

Was pretty sure scum would have an investigative though. Nice Vig call from Pret.

But can you now please start rolling town for once?

[Skellen]

Oh, Skellen, your analysis was really really on point actually. I was surprised at how much of it you figured out.

We were just setting you up to be the fall guy from before me going down.

Yeah, that's because after ramblings I know I can go wild with my imagination if it's scum!you.

Well, looking forward for the scum pt then.