White Flag - TM2020

[Auro]

So you want to lynch Gobble?
Can you help me see town Cephrir?

[northsidegal]

So you want to lynch Gobble?
Can you help me see town Cephrir?

i don't want to lynch anyone yet. that's rc's read and not mine, anyways.

i'll elaborate more later.

[Cephrir]

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion

More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?

I neither have nor need any.

[Donempire]

VOTE: cephrir

[Hopkirk]

Starting from p1 again because I'm catch up on 1/4 of the game anyway.

@Gobble: was your opening commenting on my conspiracy post something you were already planning to post before getting your alignment this game?

Will you answer this too?

I didn't I wanted to be in the other open game, but I think I was too heavy handed my own personal blacklist and bob got pushed into it instead
I specifically didn't want this game because it is

particularly difficult to win as town

I dont agree with this. I think that white flag forces us to actually play the game instead of waiting for people with night actions to point us in the right direction. We have to play differently here and part of that is going to be how much we fight with each other. And thats not to mean we cant disagree, but we should know right now that there is almost no chance that we arent going to mislynch at some point. What we need to look at is the VCA and the wagons of the day prior to inform the wagons and lynches of the days to come. Even a mislynch is going to net us info, and the more info we have the better we see the full puzzle of whos working with the town and whos working against it.

@Formerfish: could you explain the thought process you had while posting this? It reads like the textbook 'LAMIST' and the connection between your monologue and Gobble's post feels loose at best - as though you wanted to post this and you're using Gobble's post as an excuse to post it. Don't really see why you'd want to as scum or as town though, so interested in your mindset.

Why was this something you felt the need to wait to reveal?

I didn’t actually But it is helpful to see what people pick and choose to respond to. Like do people ask legitimate questions are do they ask empty questions like Cephrir’s wood question

I like the tonal outrage from Gobble here.

is elements doing a bit or something? idgi

This feels kind of odd contextually. Cephrir had just done a fairly long rundown on Gobbles (iso basically) to go through the 'wooden' read that he was expressing. Feels like he should have noticed I'd posted as 4 different people there quite visibly. I don't get why he'd go into depth on Gobbles when it also feels like he either didn't iso me, or is acting confused to avoid stuff. This is a question btw Ceph, I'll let you decide which bit

is

the question.

There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.
I can see scum motivation in posting a question designed to appear towny while not having any real justification for it, maintaining secrecy when asked why you did, and giving a tame explanation much later.
What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

That is a fair assertion. I had two main reasons for asking the question. 1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire. 2) I wanted it to get us out of RVS by giving us SOMETHING to talk about.

I have only played scum twice. Both in New York.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80850
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80463

I would say that as scum I generally do not care if I get lynched because I hate playing it so I do things that are probably suicidal from an outsider's perspective.
Yes, I would allow my teammates to coach me, but if I was scum I would have told them the same thing and probably to save their breath.

Personally I buy the ATE and irritated tone here. Asked Hectic about the town meta since he's played with town Gobble a couple of times, waiting for him to get back to me on that. Definitely feels different effort wise to his traitor game.

@Gobble: how much are you talking about this game with your team right now?

I am leaning towards that you're both town. I see what Cephrir is saying about gobble having wooden posting. It's not an insult, in fact I usually have that quality too when I'm try harding in RVS early as town.

But regardless of how effective gobble's question is to generating AI discussion, I think he seems pretty earnest about it?

My only problem is the amount of defensiveness you've shown gobble, and why you've jumped so quickly to Cephrir making a bad faith read on your slot. I get it if you don't think your posting has been bad at all (which is a purely subjective thing), but do you at least see why Auro/me would interpret your question as empty? Also, do you have any reads beyond Cephrir at this point?

I liked this the first time I read it since I was getting a TvT impression after Gobbles' post above at this point.
On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Hop 'Hiphop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Why did you see it as an empty question?

It isn't a question that someone can answer because it is so subjective. It looks like shade

Anyway: Formerfish's response in #28 isn't indicative of a big personality to you?

I didn't even see that post, but yeah that is a big personality.

So how did you feel about the first point after he followed up with an iso breakdown explaining what he meant? I thought you mentioned it seemed empty after that?

I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to

Why would not voting you despite our apparent intention to do so make us towny? On the contrary, I'd find that scummy myself.
You state you're on-the-fence about Cephrir here, although you had just voted him for other reasons. I'm kindaaa concerned about the phrasing of this.


Sorry about the grill, I'll stop here.

Edit: I looked at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80850&user_select[]=33140 and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80463&user_select[]=33140 after typing that up, seems like the turkey is a lot more opinionated in those scumgames. Warrants further checking but I think his behaviour here strays a lot from them, so I'll award him a townread as well now.

Did you check his towngames too, I'm assuming not and it doesn't make a massive different to the other part of my question? The timing here feels odd for you to have looked through in detail, especially if you were looking at context. What did you more specifically look at/find different?

and i think he's not afraid to make waves and that's good

I'm trying not to let this specifically influence my read because I think this is just who FF is as a person

but I think I'm finally vibing with a town read

I don't have any scum reads yet but I guess I can live with that

I had this quoted ready to comment on as well until I read Dann already did. I don't think Ceph followed up, and it felt immediately obvious to me that FF was going to be pretty abrasive personality/playwise from tone and it feels really odd to assume that being like that here was atypical play from him.
@Ceph

VOTE: Hopkirk

I just don't get why you had to vote him to talk to him? Dann seems pretty capable of talking without needing to be pressured with a vote. It looked like you were trying to get away from the situation

yes, i did not feel like voting you anymore. is that scummy?

The desire to not want to be voting me is not scummy, the need to move it to another person to talk with them is weird. You just did it with Auro too.

Hopkirk, my vote on you and the comments below it are not related. Sorry if that was not clear

I'm king of a sucker for townreading stuff like this that gives me the impression the person isn't reading their own posts. I don't think I've ever reread something I've written before pressing submit. Feel like scum cares more about avoiding dumb mistakes/confusion for the sake of posturing/looking better.

Hop 'Hoppington' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I guess I'm interested in why you didn't comment on anything from page 2 that wasn't a direct question toward you. Like, the amount of posts is clearly not being a barrier to you being able to analyze what was there. What was your mindset?

I glazed over spam posting from Formerfish

Spam posting on page 2 oh no! I'm so sorry turkey.

Oh shit. Wait. I have 16 posts, 17 after this one. I would say more than half of my posts are legit posts and very little is spam.

You have 42 posts and half of them are one line posts. Don't shade me with that weak ass shit when you are the blackest kettle around.

Did this help you develop your read on Turkey? If so, what is it.

numbers used instead of quotes as long posts

@Dunn 154 – why did you like early Dann posting? Are you disagreeing that it sounded casual or disagreeing about how you read it? I’ll follow up on this myself too afterwards.
161 – Gobble still talking about the wooden thing as ‘just shade’. I tend to agree that you could have made a better response to my conspiracy joke post than you did and on the second read, as I just mentioned above, I got a kind of ‘written pregame’ mechanical feel from it. Not convinced that scum commits this hard to the argument that brings him into focus, and involves not really comprehending why the wooden comment was made in the first place. Committing to it when there’s 2-3 people arguing with him about it feels like his responses are legit rather than manufactured/feels like he’s legitimately a bit frustrated there.
Still want to hear Gobble’s response to the whole wooden thing/the questions I posed in the couple of posts above.

I must say I'm loving this game - less spam, a lot of walls, a slower pace

Yes, Gobble did replace into both of those scumgames perhaps, but the tone is still very different. Even with some amount of early game content Gobble's tone has remained the same; so I'm not interested in any attacks there. Minus points to Dunn for continuing to push there.

I'm liking Dann more now, specifically that he had TW giving him insights and the explanation didn't seem post-hoc-fabricated.

FormerFish isn't as impressive as his former games at all. He has a lot of posts, but not a lot of content, save a weakish push on KittyMo.

VOTE: auro

?

VOTE: FormerFish

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

The biggest variable in tone is alignment, especially for someone who hasn't played many scumgames. I don't think the other variables matter much.

I haven't had a look at his towngame for comparison, I'll do that.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

Hopkirk 'Hipkork' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

Okay so, I like Dunnstral and Cephrir for town, probably also Hopkirk but I want to talk with them. I don't particularly like both FormerFish and Auro, and have doubts on Turkey being scum as the interaction with Cephrir seemed pretty TvT for an early game exchange. I want to hear more thoughts from Joan as sorting them can be tedious if they're not all too invested.

Will write up my explanations in a bit. I'm way too tired at the moment.

I weakly like the opening barrage from wgeurts. Very weak since there's nothing particularly hard to fake as scum there, but the tone read as at least a bit real/directly getting to the point rather than fluffing anything when tired.

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you?

Think you may have misread my post or the context?

Can you elaborate on why you don't like Auro? Also, specifically what about Cephrir vs. Gobble feels TvT to you? Mostly interested in those two answers when you're feeling less tired. I've reached sort of the same conclusion regarding Cephrir and Gobble but I'm not very confident both those reads are right yet.

At this point (2 pages to go) I've been starting to think 'Auto +Dann' as my top two scumreads. Kind of interesting in what Dann commented on here.

Hop 'Hops' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

Quoted but didn't actually respond to this did I.
Following on from what I said two posts above, don't get this given the strength of the expressed Gobble read and reads like an attempt to try and pocket Gobble given Auro is also reading Gobble as emotional/prone to more erratic behavior.

I think Hopkirk is actually my strongest town read and that's been backed up by my team.

Why's that? I don't remembering playing with any of your team (anytime recently if at all) so I'm assuming not meta?

@Auro/Dann/Dong: did any of you look through Ceph meta during this discussion? I think at least 1-2 of you heavily leaned on meta for Gobble (can't remember which 100% atm and I'll check after this) and it feels odd those people are debating 'short posting style' as alignment indicative without looking at meta to see whether that's a posting style thing in every game.
No comment myself as have not looked at Ceph meta. I think I did comment on a couple of those points that Auro commented on with siilar thoughts at the time - 82 and 120 as quoted in meh and agree on that bit.

Hop 'Hoppers' Hop

[Hopkirk]

This is why people are saying you're ignoring engagement, by the way

Is this indicative at all of your read on Ceph? What's your view on the currently argument?

and we managed not to discuss team mafia at all except for occasionally confirming that we weren't allowed to talk about it

So same thing you've been doing in thread then?

Don't think this shade is reasonable and slightly irritates me since the tone doesn't make me feel like you're just making a joke. Game started when I was asleep. I had work and could only post for a few hours the following evening. The next day I was explicitly unable to post due to things planned for a while. My plans today fell through so I'm making up for that, but I don't appreciate the implication there that you don't expect me to make a contribution when I caught up. I'm pretty sure I've posted quite a lot in the past when we've played together. During the one day I was here I made a lot of high quality memes, formed a few reads, and there weren't many people online to actually engage with due to timezones. Is your problem that I was busy one Saturday during the day?

Are

you saying you didn't think I'd come back and post much? Do you have a problem with me not being constantly available enough that it's worth making snide comments about? I don't find that particulary conductive to our future working relationship in this game and I'm almost finding the shade actually scummy since I kind of feel like it's actually you attempting to preemptively discredit me since we've played before, I've posted there, and the thread has barely been up for any time.

I'll have to introduce you to a certain 'reactive' friend of mine. I think you'd get along like 'hydrogen and oxygen'.

Hopkirk 'Hopping mad' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

You don't deserve that actually, 149 was a good post

oh, uh forget about half of that i guess. Still feels like shading though

I don't see a reason to think he's anything other than null right now. Unless his scum game is really bad or something, I don't get why people are townreading him.

This is talking about Hopkirk by the way, not Ceph

I used to be fairly good at scum (winrate was better than my town one) but haven't rolled it (onsite or off so about 6-7 games) in the last year and I've gone from liking scum to absolutely hating it in that time - based on irl games of which I've probably played ~2-300 hours of in that year period + 50-100 hours of forum.

Scum can be fun for a while/I liked it when I was newer, but I've got to the point where I've recognized my town game needs improvement and don't think playing scum particularly helps me with that (again, basing this on irl). I legitimately have no idea how I'd play scum nowadays, unless you want some self meta based on a lot of secret Hitler games.

[Hopkirk]

The bottom of my post got cut off when I pasted that from word. Pretend this is the same post and I keep my perfect signing record.

VOTE: Auto

Hop 'Hopped' Hopkirk

[Cephrir]

Feels like he should have noticed I'd posted as 4 different people there quite visibly. I don't get why he'd go into depth on Gobbles when it also feels like he either didn't iso me, or is acting confused to avoid stuff. This is a question btw Ceph, I'll let you decide which bit is the question.

What makes you think I didnt notice that?

I thought elements had written that post for you.

[Cephrir]

I don't think Ceph followed up, and it felt immediately obvious to me that FF was going to be pretty abrasive personality/playwise from tone and it feels really odd to assume that being like that here was atypical play from him.
@Ceph

I didnt respond because I didnt have any objections- dann is probably right that some of this is just FF being FF, but I still like him for town anyway.

[Hopkirk]

Feels like he should have noticed I'd posted as 4 different people there quite visibly. I don't get why he'd go into depth on Gobbles when it also feels like he either didn't iso me, or is acting confused to avoid stuff. This is a question btw Ceph, I'll let you decide which bit is the question.

What makes you think I didnt notice that?

I thought elements had written that post for you.

I thought it was obvious that was just me memeing when I signed Hectic as the all h post, Elements as angry, and Thilbert as a confused newbie then said we

absouletely

understood the rules. We were all aware we couldn't post from other accounts, but there wasn't anything saying you couldn't pretend to be them.

Although thinking about it it's pretty abusable if everyone did that.

On topic - how come you didn't comment on it if you thought we were all posting from one account?

Hop 'Hoppers' Hop

[Cephrir]

I didn't think you were all posting from one account. I thought your teammates were posting in your private topic and you were c/ping them into the thread. I also thought that must be allowed since it was happening. :shrug:

[Hopkirk]

That's functionally the same thing but reasonable. When did you stop thinking that?

Hop 'Hopping' Hops

[Cephrir]

probably 112

[Auro]

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Is there more to this for your Dann scumread?

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

I explained it in the very post you quoted - FormerFish's content was unimpressive, unlike in my previous games with him. Why was this hard to understand?
Mild on Dunn at that point, no real reads on anyone else at that point AFAIR.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

The difference I noticed on a light skim was enough to make a decently strong conclusion. Debating it also helped read Dunn to an extent.
Everything is open to change :shrug:

[Auro]

@Auro/Dann/Dong: did any of you look through Ceph meta during this discussion? I think at least 1-2 of you heavily leaned on meta for Gobble (can't remember which 100% atm and I'll check after this) and it feels odd those people are debating 'short posting style' as alignment indicative without looking at meta to see whether that's a posting style thing in every game.

I recall saying I don't care much if something's scummy because of posting style?
If it's "style" to refrain from meaningful engagement, I'm still gonna lynch.


Also, can you help me see town!FF?

[Espeonage]

Hey I'm alive. Straight up unhappy to be in this game. Will give some effort tonight.

[gobbledygook]

Wall incoming sometime on Tuesday late afternoon

[T-Bone]

Vote Count

Cephrir - 2

(Auro, Dongempire)

Auro - 2

(Cephrir, Hopkirk)

KittyMo - 1

(wgeurts)

Formerfish - 1

(Dannflor)

wguerts - 1

(northsidegal)

Dannflor - 1

(Formerfish)

Hopkirk - 1

(gobbledygook)

gobbledygook - 1

(Dunnstral)

Dunnstral - 1

(Kittymo)

Not Voting - 2

(Espeonage, Joan of Arc)

Activity Check - Prodding Joan of Arc

Deadline: (expired on 2020-01-16 22:59:30)

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to Lynch

[Dunnstral]

@Dunn 154 – why did you like early Dann posting? Are you disagreeing that it sounded casual or disagreeing about how you read it? I’ll follow up on this myself too afterwards.

Not sure what you mean, I don't think I said that I liked early Dann posting

[Dunnstral]

Nevermind, I thought you meant the end of my post reacting to 122 - I totally said that, that's not a read that's lasted this long though. I don't really remember, It was just the feeling I was getting at the time - looking back on it I wouldn't call it town again, which probably isn't what you wanted to hear