Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[72offsuit]

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

How likely do you think scum are to chainsaw a 1-vote RVS vote on page 4?

[72offsuit]

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to

gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples

) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Can you try to describe how these two things are different from each other and how you tell them apart?

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

In day 1 especially, but just generally the game revolves around that credible threat of hammering, or pressure. It starts with the town being incentivized to lynch on day 1. fwogcarf's post 85 is a good start to mathematically showing why that is the case. If you have any doubt as to why we are lynching someone today let me know and I can expand. Knowing that someone will be lynched means that these wagons can be built and pressure can be put on players for different things. Attempting to read how people react to these pressures is probably the fundamental concept of forum mafia.

At the end of the day, wagoning is good and necessary - just don't hammer people without giving them a reasonable chance to claim if they are PR.

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands

Disagree. Scum are careful and calculating, they are informed and have an agenda.
Town are in the dark, and more likely to be reckless.

[72offsuit]

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to

gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples

) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Can you try to describe how these two things are different from each other and how you tell them apart?

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

In day 1 especially, but just generally the game revolves around that credible threat of hammering, or pressure. It starts with the town being incentivized to lynch on day 1. fwogcarf's post 85 is a good start to mathematically showing why that is the case. If you have any doubt as to why we are lynching someone today let me know and I can expand. Knowing that someone will be lynched means that these wagons can be built and pressure can be put on players for different things. Attempting to read how people react to these pressures is probably the fundamental concept of forum mafia.

At the end of the day, wagoning is good and necessary - just don't hammer people without giving them a reasonable chance to claim if they are PR.

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands

Disagree. Scum are careful and calculating, they are informed and have an agenda.
Town are in the dark, and more likely to be reckless.

[72offsuit]

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

Town isn't concerned with the RESULT of action, but rather the INTENT/MOTIVATION behind posts/votes.
My intent was to move us out of RVS by posting my gut scum read off gyp's post.

[72offsuit]

Two things wrong here.

1. Almost ALWAYS people in their reads will list themselves as town if they include themselves. Why would you put yourself as null or scum? It wouldn't make any sense.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

Personally I feel that listing yourself in any reads if it is just generic alignment is redundant, but if that's the rough convention on here then so be it. I don't find that in itself suspicious, apologies if I was not clear enough before.

I also see now that I mis-read Gyp's statement and he was highlighting Micc and Frog's posts, not solely Frog. As such, this mitigates some of the feelings I had before about 72's post.

Let's talk about this. What makes Fwog listing himself as town so suspicious, especially if you admit everyone will say they're town? If it's suspicious for 72 to defend him, why is it not suspicious for Micc? If it is 72 that is being suspicious why is your vote on Fwogcarf?

See above regarding listing and suspicions. My suspicions were peaked according to how I would usually think during a meat space game vis a vis this scenario.

To contract the events that have interested me:

Fwog - Reads Micc as town,
Gyp - Queries Fwog's Reading - highlighting Micc
72 - Immediately votes Gyp

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

It's page 4. It's a gut read FoS. If its there and the game is slow then I will out my read however weak.
If you were genuinely interested in my meta and if this matches my town play, you could have easily read any one of my town games.

You are asking JV for my meta. Do you think JV is town?

[72offsuit]

Alright, I've read through the game. Here are the topics that stick out to me,

RVS

Spoiler:

First off, semi-SE hat (I am not an SE, but have played for nearly a decade offsite).

Mafia is a game that pits an uninformed majority against an informed minority. The way town wins is by generating

meaningful

content. Meaningful content is content that, when discussed and analyzed, informs the town. How does RVS, or Random Voting Stage, generate meaningful content? Towns RVS votes are truly random, or votes made for non-reasons (i.e., I know you, I don't like you avi, you smell like a waffle iron). Mafia, on the other hand,

knows

what everyone's alignment is. They are incentivized to help build momentum in wagons that are directed at town, and to stall wagons directed at mafia. In other words, an early wagon that is formed through NAI (Non-Alignment Indicative) RVS votes can generate AI (Alignment-Indicative) reactions. The reactions are not always direct. For example, a mafia member may try to stall a wagon on their teammate not by defending their teammate or attacking the wagon, but instead by starting an alternative wagon, known as a counter-wagon, in order to sap momentum away from the original wagon more indirectly.

Ultimately, reasons to believe players are one alignment or the other in day one, and especially early in day one, are typically weak and based more on

feel

than something that could constitute a concrete case. This is why many experienced players talk a lot about the

tone

of a post. Does a player

feel

like they are trying to move the game forward in a positive way? Do they seem to be contributing nothing? Why? Does mafia benefit from stalling the game right now? These are all valuable questions to ask when determining a player's alignment. Note that we can't ask these questions the moment the game starts. Interactions and reactions necessary for us to ask these questions. RVS, is a time-tested and effective method of generating the sort of content that allows us to meaningfully talk about the game, largely due to the wagons that form as we leave RVS. [/end semi-SE hat]

The Tux-fwog Interaction

Spoiler:

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

It is immediately apparent that fwog has no desire to generate

meaningful

content. When pressed by Tux later on he says a few things that indicate to me that maybe he doesn't understand how RVS works. This belief is strengthened by him stating that he will engage in RVS (28) and then proceeds to only engage in the R (29). My understanding is that fwog sees the early game as a place for random jokes and shenanigans until players start to make tonal reads on the jokes and they go from there (see: 40). If this is correct, then it makes sense why he would see this as counterproductive in a game filled with newbie players who not only wouldn't understand what was going on, but would be less likely to be able to make the tonal reads necessary to transition that sort of content to substantiated analysis. If my understanding of fwog's mentality is correct, then I feel good about his slot.

I also like Tux after this interaction. He immediately responds to fwog and tries to generate content. I disagree with Micc's reading on Tux. fwog rather explicitly states that he's willing to engage in RVS, and then proceeds to not engage in RVS (28, 29). I don't see how you can read this interaction from the outside and not understand

why

this is a legitimate reason for Tux to FOS fwog. See again the above linked posts. fwog

is

inconsistent. He says he will do X, and proceeds to do Y. I feel that Micc understands that fwog doesn't really know what RVS entails, but instead of clarifying the situation he is using the disconnect between fwog and Tux to FOS Tux. Tux clarifies his stance in 43. In 93 he explains that he's literally willing to push anything to generate content. I'm not a fan of Micc's play so far, but I think that may be more on a theory level than on a practical level. What I do like is that he is consistent, and that's always a good sign. The top of the post indicates that he's become aware that fwog's behavior can be explained by different site metas. I'm inclined to believe that,

@JacksonVirgo's recent posts seem to imply I'm misreading based on different site metas, is that correct.

is intended to be a question. At the very least this shows an open mind, and I think goes against the idea that he has an agenda.

Onto lesser points of interest,

72o

Spoiler:

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

Petri

Spoiler:

Something about seeing

Aw man, that love's contagious

and rather accusatory.

next to

Re-read the quote, and changing my question:

BV, nice to see you back I suppose.

Feels odd to me.

Further, I don't see how we get from

Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

I vaguely had other topics in mind and planned to touch a bit more on each player, but this seems to be more interesting so let's investigate here. VOTE: Petri

@Petri,

(1) In post 54 you state that one can often tell the town's chances based on how players react to RVS. I know you also said that it is more difficult to do this on forum mafia, but can you try your best to make a judgement on town's chances so far? Do you think town is in a winning or losing position, and what specific reactions lead you to that conclusion?

(2) What do you believe is 72o's motive for shifting focus from fwog? Do you think that 72o is scum defending scum, or scum defending town?

(3) If putting fwog at L-2 was an effective method of generating reads for you, why are you querying 72o before voting him?

1. I didn;t find any alignment-indicative content in the interaction, so had nothing meaningful to comment on it.

2. I'm not saying its the lack of meaningful content, but rather the LAMISTY (Look at me im so town) vibe about gyp's post - it gave me the vibe of him pretending to be contributing as opposed to shit-posting in meme-phase.

3. I don;t really see how my post fits your "carelessness" description.

[72offsuit]

@Petri: What are your thoughts on BV at the moment?

[72offsuit]

sponse, thus the added pressure. At this p

Signposting that you are going to relax pressure on someone if they respond to your post, does not feel like genuine scumhunting.

Voting for someone for not being present and not yet responding to your question, as opposed to someone posting while ignoring a question, likewise does not feel like genuine scumhunting.

[72offsuit]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

This sounds like fence sitting.
I think !townfwog would feel like the intent/vibe of my post was pocketing or not. You don;t seem to make a call either way, just leave it open there as if you want someone else to pursue this.

[72offsuit]

When it comes to the 72/fwogcarf thing, I'd like to know what people are getting at in the 'defending' argument.

Is it suspicious for 72 to 'defend' a player on his own? Or do you think 72's defense is suspicious because you think fwogcarf is suspicious?

well, even if defending a player without any good reason to defend him is alrady kinda suspicious, i think that in the case of 72o, it adds up with the fact that Fowg himself is kinda suspicious, and that 72 hasn't raised any good / bad point about fwog yet

And what are your thoughts on all the other players who have not made comment on fwog?

[72offsuit]

well, the way i originally pointed out that fact was by metionning it to fwog hen he said that he was townreading you (without saying any other details)

and secondly, i also initiated some interaction with you in post #72, so idk how I am not "asking you to explain what you were doing"

yeah ok that's fair. What's your strongest read in any direction?

we are pogging

what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.


VOTE: Petrichorus
I'm in agreement that this is a good direction. I have fwog, Gypyz, tuxedo, and luckyLuciano on the probably not lynching today list, but that's contingent on me putting a little more work into actually think about things probably tomorrow

Why is gyp on your 'probably not lynching today list'?

[JacksonVirgo]

we are pogging

what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

I have scumread Jackson more times than I have fingers and toes. He does things as town that I would never see anybody!town doing in a game. He's fakeclaimed a ton, most of it resulting in complete failure. I think I only played one scum game with him (don't remember the exact details), and I believe he was much more solvy in that game.

I'll let you know on how his content looks if he posts it later on and full-on meta read him later

Him saying he's inactive is probably NAI.

Spoiler:

Hopefully the quote format doesn't mess up

Yeah so the games where I am not scum-read early on are prooobably games where I'm scum ngl. Though my fake-claiming has worked a lot more than it has failed but alas this is not important.

I try-hard as scum more often than I try-hard as town, not so much as Town usually unless I am hyped about the game.

I'll be replying to posts soon. Just I've been working long hours and working on side-projects so a lot of my time is taken lately.

[Gypyx]

well, the way i originally pointed out that fact was by metionning it to fwog hen he said that he was townreading you (without saying any other details)

and secondly, i also initiated some interaction with you in post #72, so idk how I am not "asking you to explain what you were doing"

yeah ok that's fair. What's your strongest read in any direction?

I previously would've said that 72 was scumleaning from my opinion, but after what happened now, i'd say i'm townreading tuxedo pretty hard rn

[Gypyx]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

well yeah, associative reads work better with flips, but i personally think that not having flips shouldn't be a reason to not make associative reads

and also, from 72's last messages, i'm not really seeing the "carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

[Gypyx]

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

[LuckyLuciano]

@Petri, I await your response to my other concerns. I would like to add another question with reference to 142. If you changed your conclusion on the value of wagons, help me understand why you don't find building a wagon against 72o desirable in 120.

Btw, post tags are [post=X]X[/post] without the "=X". When you either preview or submit your message the system will add "=linkcode" into the first set of brackets.

[LuckyLuciano]

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

While he does that, could you explain the benefits of lynching someone active rather than someone inactive?

[Karnage]

Mod Note

bv310 has been prodded. They have have (expired on 2020-04-29 09:50:34) to post before being replaced.

[Gypyx]

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

While he does that, could you explain the benefits of lynching someone active rather than someone inactive?

well, it's just a better thing to do, generally, you can't get alignement reads on someone who isn't talking, so lynching someone inactive is pretty much random (of course, that is if his inactivity is due for irl reasaon) and as I said, an active player interacts with the other ones, therefore, him flipping will give us more information based on his interactions, while lynching someone who hasn't talked much isn't really helpful unless he's scum

[LuckyLuciano]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

[fwogcarf]

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to

gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples

) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Can you try to describe how these two things are different from each other and how you tell them apart?

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

In day 1 especially, but just generally the game revolves around that credible threat of hammering, or pressure. It starts with the town being incentivized to lynch on day 1. fwogcarf's post 85 is a good start to mathematically showing why that is the case. If you have any doubt as to why we are lynching someone today let me know and I can expand. Knowing that someone will be lynched means that these wagons can be built and pressure can be put on players for different things. Attempting to read how people react to these pressures is probably the fundamental concept of forum mafia.

At the end of the day, wagoning is good and necessary - just don't hammer people without giving them a reasonable chance to claim if they are PR.

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands

Disagree. Scum are careful and calculating, they are informed and have an agenda.
Town are in the dark, and more likely to be reckless.

You think scum only plays in one way?

[fwogcarf]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

This sounds like fence sitting.
I think !townfwog would feel like the intent/vibe of my post was pocketing or not. You don;t seem to make a call either way, just leave it open there as if you want someone else to pursue this.

Sure lets go with that.

[fwogcarf]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

well yeah, associative reads work better with flips, but i personally think that not having flips shouldn't be a reason to not make associative reads

and also, from 72's last messages, i'm not really seeing the "carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

I don't think Luciano meant 72's last messages, so you can't use his recent posts as evidence to answer that question.

[Gypyx]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

well, i'd say that once we're halfway through D1 huge lack of activity without asking from replacement / providing good reasons for that lack of activity is a red flag

[Micc]

Why is gyp on your 'probably not lynching today list'?

He did a good job explaining what he was thinking when I was pressuring him about his early posting. Felt he had genuine reasons for the things he'd done and wasn't making anything up. Not a strong read, but one that I'm confident has room to evolve over the course of the game, which is a big thing I'm looking for in Day 1.

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

Someone who is inactive is likely to continue to be inactive, and someone who has generated interactions and stuff is likely to continue to do that. The first group is people you don't want to be in lylo and the second group are the best people to have in lylo. This theory opinion is something I've reversed course on over my time playing mafia, but currently I have no problem compromising to lynch people who aren't pulling their weight in early day phases. I often think of mafia as a game where each team is trying to set up a final 3 where they have the best chance to win, and cutting dead weight early is a big part of being successful in that as town.