Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[DkKoba]

seeing joqizas meme i do notice the lack of interaction between apogee and maduisha and that does concern me. although all I have are ~possibilities~ based on confirmed flips and thats all I can tell rn.

[midwaybear]

I get the feeling midway is trying to force their play to be different from last game because votato and I are at this table. if he flips scum I think votato is strongly leaning town because of that. I find a very stilted "trying hard to be different and force towntells" sorta vibe from him thus far and I encourage people to vote for him with me

why change a winning strategy?

[votato]

I get the feeling midway is trying to force their play to be different from last game because votato and I are at this table. if he flips scum I think votato is strongly leaning town because of that. I find a very stilted "trying hard to be different and force towntells" sorta vibe from him thus far and I encourage people to vote for him with me

i get the same vibe. its clearly different, and he seems uncomfortable. but i dont think its scum yet.

[DkKoba]

these setups where the strategy is to have PRs hide 100% on D1 always make me afraid to push on certain scumreads bc people who roll PR and are newer tend to act scummy because they feel invincible and then they get pushed on and forced to out zzzzzzzzzzzz i dont wanna tunnel a scummy pr again and im annoyed that some of my scumreads are potential PRs.

[Ydrasse]

you guys said that he coasted the last game you played with him, yeah?

dunno how likely it is but if he wasn't under a lot of pressure last time it could be that he's unsure how to react to it this time.

[midwaybear]

they are just salty that I got an ez dub
if i was scum, i would use the same strategy like i did in 1997. You're right though. I don't really know how to react to pressure.

[midwaybear]

honestly, just read 1997. It's not too long and not that boring either.

[DkKoba]

i wish I was a role who's votes counted for 2 right now so I could vote midway even harder right now.

[midwaybear]

Well then I would have 3 votes and I had three votes before.

[Maduisha]

Tone feels incredibly stilted from page 1, never improves, literally just read post #299 “Anyway, Ydrasse, I welcome inquiries.” feel bad pushing that because there’s some evidence of language barrier “or at least achieve not to frustrate you guys.” More importantly: reads with little to no backing, I already pointed out that she has three townreads (or “townleans”) by page 3 of the game, super questionable. Tone improved when I pushed them, had a sort of quiet defensiveness. Then got worse again, post #253 reads super theatrical though like it’s 11 pages, game isn’t that bad yet chill out, seems extremely insincere. Slot could make for a good lynch regardless of alignment tbh if town they’re gonna get mishammered at some point and I don’t think they’re PR. Post #306 is such garbage, like you’re expressing doubts about your midway push but you’re constantly doubling down on them why not flip to another slot when you’re not getting anything out of this one push. Analysis: scum read

Little to no backing for my reads? I explained them several times now, one of them to you. I explained what I saw and why I saw it the best I can. I will not make up "more solid" reasons to make people think I'm onto something when I might not be. I try to be confident with my reads within a reasonable margin because otherwise people don't take you seriously, but at the same time I'm constantly trying to get some reality checks, like when I backtracked from Midway, because I was hung up on my own read being good, but then I realized that a dude that doesn't seem to realize posting unrelated stuff disrupts discussion is also very likely to be the same kind of person that makes a point that self-defeats. And a world in which Midway actually has this personality and I'm reading him wrong is a more probable world than Midway playing 4D chess, I acknowledged it and took a step back to considerate other slots.

About getting irritated in page 11: it's more that seeing scum mentality from town gets me frustrated than me getting impatient for Clemency to reread. Him not seeing anything wrong with what he's doing means he's going to be a liability if he's town, do you feel me?

And about why didn't I jump into a different wagon after dropping Midway's: As you might have already seen, I've been tunneling him mostly. My attention in his slot means I haven't watched others as carefully. The other player in my radar was Apogee, but he wasn't posting much at the moment, so I'm not going to suddenly case him without a more tangible vibe, even if I'm getting gut pings, because that's shitpushing and I can't expect him to defend in a reasonable manner if I have no argument, and I can't expect anyone to support me either for the same reason. I hope that makes sense.

My slot making for a good lynch is something I can get behind, though. If people start being unsure about me and they end up changing their minds and lynch someone else that happens to be town, it's very likely that the next lynch will be the slot they've been itching about (aka: me). If it's a matter of getting flipped earlier or later, I prefer the option that misdirects people the least. And any and all flips are informative because of association reads, so it wouldn't be a worthless flip if I know I'm a controversial slot to many of you.

[Maduisha]

hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.

however.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha

i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)

i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.

The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.

I don't have a firm scum read yet, but I'm leaning scum on Midway, ye. Also watching Apogee ever since he made that purposely non commital push, but his content feels null for now. And I don't know if Midway looks like low hanging fruit and I'm looking scummy for trying to dig into his slot, but I honestly don't care. If I don't explore the things that ping me "because it might look bad" I might as well not post.

it isn't that it's unnatural in structure so much as that you feel scripted. the way you act and talk feels like you're intentionally putting on a show/display.

reading for tone isn't everything, granted. i find myself agreeing with some of your content — 331 feels strong to me! it feels more like you're trying to analyze the content in a way that i can get behind, and you do have points that i'm not ignoring. midwaybear has been just... all over the place and very difficult to pin down.

the fact is that i feel like this entire time your motivation hasn't been... the best, the way it's been so single-mindedly focused onto a slot that doesn't give us much in the end and it's been clear.

that and the way 352, 354, and 357 unfold feel so just weird that i can't ignore it. like, if you've been theatrical before you're putting on the whole damn play with those. i dunno what you were going for here being like "yay! i can get content! from this" means when you didn't really like... switch to focusing anyone after unvoting midwaybear. sure, you can get information from it, but you've announced the intentions of it, which people all know how wagons go, and it falls flat. why not just... start pushing on someone else instead of waiting to reap some content from a supposed wagon.

dunno, just seems weird to me.

Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.

I insist my explanation of the wagon being useful doesn't detract from the usefulness of the wagon at all because of what I already said. The reasons to vote me and the reasons not to vote me exist regardless of anything I said. This means people will have reasons to join, leave it, or avoid it no matter how much I talk about it. Even refusing to communicate a read is communication, if you get what I mean. For example, Midway has joined the wagon a bit late even though he had been saying he scumreads me lightly for a couple of pages. The fact that he did not start the wagon himself at all is information. The fact that he did not counterwagon my wagon on him is also information. I am more inclined to believe Midway is town after seeing how he interacted with my wagon. Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should confuse lynch wagons for a reaction test: what I'm looking for is logic behind a push and the timing of said logic being reasonable within the slot's behavior until now, not just to see if people vote or not. And if I get policy lynched for being controversial, then we gather evidence from the way people joined a wagon, specially if they had a bigger scumread and still decided to capitalize on me.

As to why didn't I go after someone that isn't Midway immediately: I already replied Joqiza about it, but it's also in great part that I have a wagon on me and I want to see interactions with it.

[DkKoba]

maduisha has a similar playstyle to another player who I know and I'm going to read them accordingly to that and that playstyle typically is never obvious alignment wise on d1 but always becomes more obvious the more the game goes on. I implore extra attention on maduisha from d2 forward. although I have to say she has not done much gamesolving and has instead detracted the push on her into an AtE argument, which I don't like. Maduisha if you are town, I want you to defend yourself, not play like this. You are not helping town and are just using non-logic to get people to hold off on you.

[DkKoba]

(please please please especially if I die N1 whoever is alive and sees this post please keep in mind my previous post because I don't want town to forget about this)

[Maduisha]

I get the feeling midway is trying to force their play to be different from last game because votato and I are at this table. if he flips scum I think votato is strongly leaning town because of that. I find a very stilted "trying hard to be different and force towntells" sorta vibe from him thus far and I encourage people to vote for him with me

why change a winning strategy?

they are just salty that I got an ez dub
if i was scum, i would use the same strategy like i did in 1997. You're right though. I don't really know how to react to pressure.

I don't even think you're that scummy anymore, but you have to realize that kind of affirmation is wifom, come on. I can say "I would never repeat my scum meta twice in a row!" and "Why would I change my strategy if it worked once?" and you have no way to tell if I'm saying the truth. That's why these posts of yours are empty, but I get that you don't realize.

It's the same reason why I think bringing up self-meta is futile, I can't gain anything from showing people my scum game and telling them I'm not acting like that and therefore I'm town. They can't know if I'm distancing from my scum meta on purpose. I hope you see now that stating things only you can verify as if it were a fact backfires quickly because it has no foundation of trust.

[DkKoba]

maduisha they're very obviously scummy, why fencesit on that fact.

[DkKoba]

you have a vote on them and you pushed on them, and now you have cold feet?

[Maduisha]

maduisha has a similar playstyle to another player who I know and I'm going to read them accordingly to that and that playstyle typically is never obvious alignment wise on d1 but always becomes more obvious the more the game goes on. I implore extra attention on maduisha from d2 forward. although I have to say she has not done much gamesolving and has instead detracted the push on her into an AtE argument, which I don't like. Maduisha if you are town, I want you to defend yourself, not play like this. You are not helping town and are just using non-logic to get people to hold off on you.

But... I don't actually think I'm appealing at the emotions of Ydrasse and Joqiza, I'm trying to explain the logic behind my actions to them and why I believe for my arguments to be true.

I didn't OMGUS them, I didn't call their reads shit, I didn't try to make them feel like lynching me is a bad idea because "I'm obviously town." I honestly can't see what you're saying.

But the whole "please watch her d2+" feels like a fulfillment of what I theorized before, I'm becoming a slot that definitely gets flipped now or later. I think I actually don't mind flipping D1 if my content is to become wifom otherwise. I don't think I can impact the game positively if I get chain lynched later and if I make it to lylo it's just going to be a mess.

[Maduisha]

you have a vote on them and you pushed on them, and now you have cold feet?

No, I unvoted him a couple of pages ago because I realized his behavior explained by his personality is more likely than Midway having some very elaborate plan that includes contradicting himself and posting obvious fluff after being called out. As much as it frustrates me, the lack of self awareness doesn't look like scum trying to look town.

[Maduisha]

It just means he's town with scummy behavior, which isn't unheard of. Not exactly helpful, but still town.

That's going to be a headache later on, for granted.

[DkKoba]

If you're town you don't have much to fear as your actions should reflect you as town. Or are you not confident in your ability?

I am currently judging your level/playstyle and you're a slot I 100% need to hash out because you don't have an impatient/ego-y playstyle.

Why are you afraid you might get scumread? Are you planning on doing scummy things? Or can you not rebut and prove town motivation? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here when you are asking to be lynched because a) clearly you don't want to be lynched b) you are 100% AtEing like I said in a, you are not trying to get lynched here.

[DkKoba]

If he's town then why don't you unvote him? And I'd like an explaination what you find town-motivated about his play.

[DkKoba]

I read you as a moreso competent player with clear mafia experience, so I feel I can better question you in meaningful ways and get better information than most of the table. (joqiza if ur reading this I didn't forget you dw)

[Maduisha]

If you're town you don't have much to fear as your actions should reflect you as town. Or are you not confident in your ability?

I am currently judging your level/playstyle and you're a slot I 100% need to hash out because you don't have an impatient/ego-y playstyle.

Why are you afraid you might get scumread? Are you planning on doing scummy things? Or can you not rebut and prove town motivation? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here when you are asking to be lynched because a) clearly you don't want to be lynched b) you are 100% AtEing like I said in a, you are not trying to get lynched here.

I'm not "afraid of getting scumread", I'm just conscious that people are voting me, which means they don't trust me, and if a different town gets the rope D1, I'm likely to be chain lynched later because people have regrets. You get what I'm saying, right? The game changes substantially once one round of night actions happen, so I would trade another player making it to D2 over getting there myself if the majority of town are not to believe my words afterwards, anyway.

If he's town then why don't you unvote him? And I'd like an explaination what you find town-motivated about his play.

I unvoted long ago.

[DkKoba]

I missed that then. I am an unashamed skimmer.

[Maduisha]

I read you as a moreso competent player with clear mafia experience, so I feel I can better question you in meaningful ways and get better information than most of the table. (joqiza if ur reading this I didn't forget you dw)

I actually have only 3 games here and prior to that I had only played with friends with very different rules (all players are PR, games start in night 0 instead of day 1). But ask away!