Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[midwaybear]

i do not remember you "restating" your accusations on me in a single, organized post either

[votato]

797 was not directed to you midway

[Maduisha]

At least you could try to give a short explanation as to why or where I'm wrong instead of insulting me and promising stuff for later. I can play that game too, you know?

Meh. I don't even feel like lashing out to you. Resort to insults all you want.

[votato]

The Case Against Votato

Spoiler: random pressure

The first example of votato throwing a vote is 144. Originally, I didn't like votato doing this because I thought it was stupid for him to randomly pressure people, but then I saw that he explained why in 152. His explanation was because DK is an easy read under pressure. There are two things wrong with this.
1. How the heck does he know DK is an easy read under pressure?! votato has only played in a DK town game, so I don't get why he says this when scum DK could be unreadable under pressure.
2. That defeats the whole purpose of the pressure. You don't announce you are going to pressure someone before you do it. You just do it. I interpret this as scum votato trying to gain towncred by doing a fake push against DK.
The next case of a random pressure from votato is when he said scum was apogee+madiusha. This is scummy for the same reasons and Madiusha legit told votato that she wasn't going to take him seriously(234). After Apogee and Madiusha both expose votato for the pressure, votato backtracks and says "gotta generate that content somehow" which I do not buy.
His next vote is on joqiza in post 261. I completely disagree with the first part of the post. votato is advocating for everyone to vote, and he says not voting his scummy. WTH? People somehow think putting people under pressure just magically reveals whether they are scum or not. Although this is sometimes true, pressure can also cause scum to be more defensive and careful which is not good. His vote on joqiza is NAI though.
Next, he actually starts the whole wagon on Madiusha. This time, people actually agree with him! This time his reason was actually good! However, I think he exaggerated how much Madiusha was hedging because I was actually hard to read, so I get why she was confused.

Spoiler: bad questions

This is after I gave my townread on Apogee. He basically mangled my entire argument and said that I was hedging(578,585). However, I was not hedging. I admitted that to some people, Apogee's early game could have been scummy, but I concluded that his explanation is fair and it overrules whatever scumminess the early game had. Not hedging because I conclude that Apogee is town and I don't say "oh maybe he's town, but he could be scum"

Spoiler: buddy buddy

If you look at 576, it is clear that votato is trying to buddy with DK by sheeping. In fact, I smell some hypocrisy here. votato says that my reasoning to defend Apogee was bad, yet he doesn't explain why. Now look who's saying things without evidence. In fact, he goes so far to say "Dk and I" in 591 trying to further associate that he and DK are town together.

Spoiler: other stuff

In 435, votato said that he BS pressured to get the game going. Again, dumb reasoning and poor logic. I said this earlier, but the game was not dead at that point! I'm also not sure why he unvoted Madiusha and then almost immediately revoted. He said that his unvote was "to reduce stress of a lol hammer", but by revoting he reintroduced the possibility. He also said that Madiusha was wishy washy with her reads in 510, but the only wishy washy stuff I see is in her null reads which makes sense

Spoiler: tldr

votato is scum because of his random pressures, buddying, and bad logic.

ill respond to this first.

random voting: random pressure in the random vote stage is not scummy. you gotta start somewhere. i only announced that it was fake after the pressure was done. it wasnt negated. just because you dont understand how the game works doesnt mean im bad for playing. in every non-newbie game ive been in after 2-3 real life days people start getting called out for "vanity votes" - not being on one of the major wagons.

bad questions: you had completely refused to take a firm stance on anything. me calling you out is not scummy. in any universe.

buddy buddy: midway has explicitly said hes trying to form townblocks, yet when i do the same, its "buddying."

other stuff: none of this is reason why im scum. having null reads is ok. not having any reads that arent null isnt.

i appreciate the effort here midway, but this is not a good case.

[votato]

this is a response to 791. not gonna quote because its too long, and i respect your time.

let me first take a moment to address my unvote and revote on maduisha. maduisha was whining about the potential for a lolhammer. i unvoted as a courtesy, not because my conviction had changed. i said as much. maduisha wanted time to get her thoughts out. in the next half hour, maduisha got her thoughts out, and said it was ok to revote. so i did. and went to bed. so i wasnt around to address DK's very pressing concerns. thinking that my unvote is scummy here is either misreading, not reading, or intentional misrepresentation.

on forgetting i was voting apogee: im quite busy with a few other games, and might have bitten off a bit more than i can chew. i should have been more aware, true enough. but that goes for both scum!me and town!me. its really not AI. the maduisha wagon was pretty useless at that point, we got most of what we were gonna get unless we really pressed for the lynch. quicklynches are anti-town, especially day 1. i do still scumread you though. i havent backtracked there. moving my vote helps the game progress.

that was a looootttt of words for a case that boils down to: i dont like that he voted me. i dont like that he unvoted me. i dont like that he was confused. you're being really silly. moving off your wagon doesnt prevent anyone from asking for takes on your wagon. it doesnt prevent people from analyzing vote movements.

[Maduisha]

"Maduisha was whining about a potential lolhammer"

When did I whine, what? This is untrue, could you at least not lie?

And the defense being that you're too busy with other games to be coherent within 2 pages is marvelous, I'll be printing it and hanging it on the wall in my office. No, I haven't built a case on you for voting me. If that were the reason, I would have voted Ydrasse when she accused me the first time. Or DK. Or the guy that keeps pointing the finger at me and never voted me for some reason.

Why do you think you stood out for me to vote you just because you voted me? What?

And saying the wagon is worthless when one player hasn't even seen the L-1 situation at all, and when a player that has been accusing me all game ignores it completely is telling. Of course it's worthless. To your wincon.

[Maduisha]

Honestly, between having to play with some people that are absent most of the time or fucking replace out when they have to read more than 5 pages, getting shitpushed, people acting like my posts are invisible, and now getting insulted, I'm done.

I took my time to analyze the situation and the person I voted insults me and reduces my argument to such bullshit.

I'll be playing Animal Crossing until someone that isn't this individual has legitimate reasons to call for me. Have fun with the game.

[midwaybear]

oops sorry that you feel that way about the playerlist. I actually think this player list is pretty good though.
joqiza is good, DK is pretty good, votato is a good town player, you're good too, quick is normally good, and the two newbies aren't even really newbies. Idk about enomis. He hasn't done much
now I will refute votato's counterargument

[Ydrasse]

votato, where was maduisha talking about a lolhammer? granted i’m mobile and can’t sit to read or write much right now but i can’t find it in her iso.

@maduisha: you have to understand that in that moment when you were asking for my reads, the pressure was on you to give some from a few people. fmpov you asking for my reads seemed like a way to deflect and turn attention away rather than interact genuinely in that moment so that you didn’t have to read and analyze.

however, i’m glad to see some content! which i am going to make a concerted effort to read when when i’m off in a few hours and respond more to. i’m sorry though because it seems you’re really not having fun right now. :s

ps: who’s your favorite villager?

[votato]

maduisha had early on in the L-1 talked about lolhammers, and was at that point saying that she wanted to at least get some final thoughts out before dying. i could have been reading into it too much because i had seen a number of lolhammers elsewhere recently. regardless, please view the unvote and revote on maduisha as NAI. it was a courtesy to ensure that she had enough time to post thoughts.

[midwaybear]

Spoiler: votato's counterargument

The Case Against Votato

Spoiler: random pressure

The first example of votato throwing a vote is 144. Originally, I didn't like votato doing this because I thought it was stupid for him to randomly pressure people, but then I saw that he explained why in 152. His explanation was because DK is an easy read under pressure. There are two things wrong with this.
1. How the heck does he know DK is an easy read under pressure?! votato has only played in a DK town game, so I don't get why he says this when scum DK could be unreadable under pressure.
2. That defeats the whole purpose of the pressure. You don't announce you are going to pressure someone before you do it. You just do it. I interpret this as scum votato trying to gain towncred by doing a fake push against DK.
The next case of a random pressure from votato is when he said scum was apogee+madiusha. This is scummy for the same reasons and Madiusha legit told votato that she wasn't going to take him seriously(234). After Apogee and Madiusha both expose votato for the pressure, votato backtracks and says "gotta generate that content somehow" which I do not buy.
His next vote is on joqiza in post 261. I completely disagree with the first part of the post. votato is advocating for everyone to vote, and he says not voting his scummy. WTH? People somehow think putting people under pressure just magically reveals whether they are scum or not. Although this is sometimes true, pressure can also cause scum to be more defensive and careful which is not good. His vote on joqiza is NAI though.
Next, he actually starts the whole wagon on Madiusha. This time, people actually agree with him! This time his reason was actually good! However, I think he exaggerated how much Madiusha was hedging because I was actually hard to read, so I get why she was confused.

Spoiler: bad questions

This is after I gave my townread on Apogee. He basically mangled my entire argument and said that I was hedging(578,585). However, I was not hedging. I admitted that to some people, Apogee's early game could have been scummy, but I concluded that his explanation is fair and it overrules whatever scumminess the early game had. Not hedging because I conclude that Apogee is town and I don't say "oh maybe he's town, but he could be scum"

Spoiler: buddy buddy

If you look at 576, it is clear that votato is trying to buddy with DK by sheeping. In fact, I smell some hypocrisy here. votato says that my reasoning to defend Apogee was bad, yet he doesn't explain why. Now look who's saying things without evidence. In fact, he goes so far to say "Dk and I" in 591 trying to further associate that he and DK are town together.

Spoiler: other stuff

In 435, votato said that he BS pressured to get the game going. Again, dumb reasoning and poor logic. I said this earlier, but the game was not dead at that point! I'm also not sure why he unvoted Madiusha and then almost immediately revoted. He said that his unvote was "to reduce stress of a lol hammer", but by revoting he reintroduced the possibility. He also said that Madiusha was wishy washy with her reads in 510, but the only wishy washy stuff I see is in her null reads which makes sense

Spoiler: tldr

votato is scum because of his random pressures, buddying, and bad logic.

ill respond to this first.

random voting: random pressure in the random vote stage is not scummy. you gotta start somewhere. i only announced that it was fake after the pressure was done. it wasnt negated. just because you dont understand how the game works doesnt mean im bad for playing. in every non-newbie game ive been in after 2-3 real life days people start getting called out for "vanity votes" - not being on one of the major wagons.

bad questions: you had completely refused to take a firm stance on anything. me calling you out is not scummy. in any universe.

buddy buddy: midway has explicitly said hes trying to form townblocks, yet when i do the same, its "buddying."

other stuff: none of this is reason why im scum. having null reads is ok. not having any reads that arent null isnt.

i appreciate the effort here midway, but this is not a good case.

Let's talk this through point by point.
1. Random voting. First of all, I called you out for randomly pressuring people not randomly voting. Sure, you announced that it was fake after the pressure. But before you started to pressure DK, you said "I also think that youll be pretty easy to get a read on once we put you under some pressure, so youre a good place to start". Do you not see what is wrong with this? By broadcasting that you're only pressuring him because they are a supposedly easy read, it tells DK that you don't even really think he is scummy which is fake pressure! I already brought this up, but when you pressured apogee+madiusha, madiusha legit said that she wasn't taking you seriously because your claim was so dumb. Your random pressures are scummy, and they read like you trying to make it seem like you are pushing people even when you aren't.

2. Wrong again. The "bad questions" section was about you thinking I was hedging when I really wasn't. Either you mistinterpreted my defense of apogee, or you're scum futilely trying to tear down my argument due to "hedging".

3. Ok, I have openly said that I was forming a townblock with apogee. However, this was completely different from what you were doing to DK. You legit sheeped off of him when he was attacking me while I never really sheeped off of Apogee. All I said was that apogee is town while you were sheeping off of DK to try to pocket him and sway him.

4. You are not even coherent at this point, so I'm not going to reply to this.

[votato]

1. random votes = random pressure.

2. not taking a stance is hedging. its wishy washy. its scummy. you refused to take a stance on anything for a long time.

3. i didnt sheep DK, i stated my own reasons. also i cant both be sheeping DK and trying to sway him.

4. you need to take a stand. have an opinion. now you've done that, your opinion is just really bad. but if youre town we will get there together.

[midwaybear]

also, neither me nor madiusha's arguments against you really hinge around your vote/unvote
Sure, maybe it's NAI, but it's also weird. By unvoting, you expressed doubt in a madiusha lynch, but by revoting it shows that you seemed fine with her lynch in just 26 minutes. Can't you see how this looks like backtracking?

pedit:
1. whatever, sometimes you pressured without voting
2. i took the stance that apogee was town. do you still not understand? you were trying to say that my argument on apogee was hedging even when I clarified that I thought he was town
3. will look at this again
4. this doesn't help convince me at all

[Quick]

hmm good point. it was because Dk's post style changed. but since i pointed it out, perhaps it was a conscious choice to be more aggressive and spergy. in any event i think that Dk isn't really a scumread by now.

sure so how do you see that slot now?

[midwaybear]

hmm good point. it was because Dk's post style changed. but since i pointed it out, perhaps it was a conscious choice to be more aggressive and spergy. in any event i think that Dk isn't really a scumread by now.

sure so how do you see that slot now?

That votato quote is so bs. I did not see any change in DKs posting style pre and post pressure that would be AI.

[votato]

my unvote had nothing to do with me doubting the lynch. i said as much. i didnt backtrack, because my convictions never changed. please read.

1. ok. thats not scummy. you arent saying anything.
2. your premises did not lead to your conclusion. you only took the stance that apogee was town after we repeatedly called you out for not taking a firm stance.
3. you do that bud. please read what i actually wrote and not just what you wish id written though. maybe take a few hours away from the game and come back with a freshly open mind.
4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

[votato]

hmm good point. it was because Dk's post style changed. but since i pointed it out, perhaps it was a conscious choice to be more aggressive and spergy. in any event i think that Dk isn't really a scumread by now.

sure so how do you see that slot now?

as likely town. i havent given DK much thought since sorting him. I already have a lynchpool of four for today, and wrangling them is taking up all my efforts. and sometimes i even have to include enomis. simply by PoE with this many scummy people i have to assume DK is town. I'll return to him later if after flips my current thinking is revealed to have been flawed.

[Quick]

Hey @enomis,

Do you remember me? Y/N?

[midwaybear]

1. Uh your random pressure read like fake contribution which is scummy
2. No, I said I hope apogee is town at the end because if he was scum, then he would be doing a nice job. My stance was never wishy washy
3. Ok bud
4. Yes, I have decided to tunnel you, but if you flip town I have backup suspicions too

Also, quick did you reread?

[Quick]

Keep posting walls people. You are making my job easy.

BTW, I almost want to TR people for posting walls based on that alone. Am I serious or no?

[Quick]

Also, quick did you reread?

If you means reread, the answer is no. If you meant did I read the whole game yet the answer is

No!!!

[midwaybear]

Uhh

[votato]

1. Uh your random pressure read like fake contribution which is scummy
2. No, I said I hope apogee is town at the end because if he was scum, then he would be doing a nice job. My stance was never wishy washy
3. Ok bud
4. Yes, I have decided to tunnel you, but if you flip town I have backup suspicions too

Also, quick did you reread?

1. thats outweighed by way more real contribution since then.
2. you hedged by saying "i hope apogee is town" thats not a stance.
3. okayyyyy buddyyyyyyy
4.what are your backup suspicions? lets get all our reads out on the table shall we? that way we can be held to account! show me that thought progression! tunneling is bad. especially when its based on such poor logic. but it kinda makes me wanna townread you cuz youre cute.

[midwaybear]

1. What real contribution?
2. Even after I clarified that I thought apogee was town, you still thought I was hedging
3.
4. Nope, I will not do that this time.

Lets stop this argument for now ok(until other people come back)

[Quick]

hmm good point. it was because Dk's post style changed. but since i pointed it out, perhaps it was a conscious choice to be more aggressive and spergy. in any event i think that Dk isn't really a scumread by now.

sure so how do you see that slot now?

as likely town. i havent given DK much thought since sorting him. I already have a lynchpool of four for today, and wrangling them is taking up all my efforts. and sometimes i even have to include enomis. simply by PoE with this many scummy people i have to assume DK is town. I'll return to him later if after flips my current thinking is revealed to have been flawed.

Okay, maybe keep an open mind on who can be Scum/Town instead of just deciding that prematurely.