Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[Maduisha]

Also, I'm interested in a deeper analysis of Votato + Ydrasse when you have the time for it, Apogee. I find it kind of weird that she posted right after your reveal of scumreads but didn't react to the fact that she's in your solve, but we'll see. Maybe she didn't have time to write a post about it or maybe she's waiting until you flesh it out because it can be hard to address concerns without the full accusation on the table.

[Ydrasse]

and hint, joqiza claimed because they think claiming vt will somehow make them seem more innocent — they're trying to appear as if they're a noble townie trying to prevent the pr from getting outted. when in reality they know it's the only way to get the scrutiny off of them at all, and the other option, which is ACTUALLY fishing for pr, would be the final nail in their coffin. it's ate.

It really feels like at no point does Ydrasse want to consider the possibility that I might flip town. I mean this is probably the most uncharitable way you could view events as is possible. What bothers me is that she wasn't the sort of player previously who would confirmation bias like this, Day 1 I found her really towny because it felt like for each player she was considering "both sides of the coin" in a sense. But she hasn't treated me like a possible villager/mafia today, she just wants me lynched and she hasn't really done any serious inquiry as to my alignment. I was having problems articulating this before but it really feels like a break in behavior and it's why I called it out.

i don't see a world where you flip town. your logic about your hammer and trying to explain it through your explanation b situation didn't make sense because your intentions don't match up with the reality of your posts at all. in reality what you've done today is little more than ate to people when the pressure gets on you and try to deflect their reads as bad.

i've tried to understand where you're coming from and i just can't. your behavior is at odds with what you've been saying no matter how many times you try to explain it.

:

its my way of realigning where I should be looking and what i should be pushing on, and reaffirming certain suspicions.

as for your reads list I can't say I agree with all of it but ydrasse is a slot i 100% want to push harder. I have a really sneaking suspicion and I just cant shake it but I have to do the uncomfortable thing and trust my gut. I had the gut read on ydrasse on d1 and I waved it off but there's somethign really fking important that you had in another post concerning midway that prompted me to pay attention to a certain type of play more.

what is the suspicion, and why do you have to trust your gut and not think logically about this? whatever was important you should post about it instead of making vague associations.

Also, I'm interested in a deeper analysis of Votato + Ydrasse when you have the time for it, Apogee. I find it kind of weird that she posted right after your reveal of scumreads but didn't react to the fact that she's in your solve, but we'll see. Maybe she didn't have time to write a post about it or maybe she's waiting until you flesh it out because it can be hard to address concerns without the full accusation on the table.

i can't really reply to apogee's suspicion because it's half-way there and hedges more on a team read, and he's waiting more to hear the case on me from other people than willing to make it himself. there's not much of anything to reply to other than saying, "hey why?" and then have it be fleshed out.

[DkKoba]

i swear no one wants to talk unless im here
Anyways i want to go carry mode today.

[DkKoba]

y'all......better have some content before i get home

[Apogee]

sorta. i explained that already. I think DK is fairly easy to read when under pressure. So I turned up the heat. I wasnt planning on making up scumreads all game, but the thread is completely dead, and apathy is really bad for towns, so I want to keep people active, emotional, and engaged.

another good way to generate content is to get some wagons going. there are four of us who arent even voting! thats no good. not voting means you arent expressing an opinion, and not engaging with the game is scummy.

VOTE: joqiza
joqiza has been actively posting, but hasnt voted or said anything meaningful iirc.

pedit: ok, then why are you lurking now? i guess you said you forgot about this game, but tsk tsk.

midway, do you really interpret me backing off of DkK as "i give up" that seems like a pretty bad misrepresentation of what i said.

i revived this game from the dead by starting some pressure on some people. Yeah, it was bullshit pressure, but look at all the stuff thats happening. I am also providing reads, asking probing questions, and doing some pretty effective shitposting.

i don't think this game was really dead, and you even admit that your pressure was stupid. Iirc the push you did outside of pushing DK was saying apogee+maidusha were scummy which I don't really get. Why don't you push people you think are scum instead of doing your so called bs pressure? Also, you said that DK was fairly easy to read under pressure, how do you even know that??

look at posts per hour before i did that, look at posts per hour now. look at the number of people who were coming under pressure then and now. i generally wait a bit to form firm reads, and the game was awkwardly not in RVS and awkwardly wagon-less. So i made up some stuff to get things going. look. it worked. except that people still arent voting. please vote. this isnt real life, your vote here matters. im pushing at someone i legit think is scummy now. i voted that person, and am waiting for replies and other people's reactions. im pretty sure DkK is pretty easy to read under pressure based on 1997. you were there.

for the record, i accused maduisha and apogee in post 229. the game started 3 and a half days before that, and there were 9 full pages of content. in ~52 hours since then there are 20 full pages of content. sounds like things got more lively. im not sure why thats such a big deal, but there you have it.

midway, this is a game of cooperation. for the uninformed majority to win, we have to work together. by hiding our thoughts, we allow the scum to hide their thoughts too. that said, blatantly anti-town behavior comes from town more often than scum. I'll unvote you provided that you share your reads and they make some measure of sense.

You will have it working on some ISO reads right now

[Apogee]

Ooops those were not supposed to be there yet guess it spoiled who I was ISOing

[votato]

dis gon be gud

[votato]

also @maduisha, a lot of my posts are short. you but its about the trend as much as the volume. and volume suggests willingness to engage. just because i dont write boring wallposts every time doesnt mean im not solving when i post

[Apogee]

Long post incoming on votato and his scummy behavior. Followup to come on pairings. I'm not doing a full ISO but I'll cite some posts under each of my main points.

Alright. Most people are at least open to the idea that votato is scum. Personally, I'm not 100% sure (I'll get my hedge out of the way right at the beginning and you won't have to listen to any more for the rest), and I'm not going to tunnel him, but I think votato has displayed major scummy behavior and is a worthy lynch.

Let's break down the case into three big categories: sheeping and false wagons, seeking towncred, and falsehoods (lies of omission, partial defenses, and contradictions).

1. Votato has repeatedly joined wagons with the intent of "pushing" a slot, often after someone else has started one. Generally, the reasoning for these wagons is either vague and not based in citations or he primarily follows along on someone else's (the wagon on myself and joqiza as the prime examples).

Here is a spoiler with all of his votes, to help facilitate rereads. Some posts speak for themselves, others take going back and reading context

Spoiler: Votato vote posts

VOTE: dkkoba

i read the thread. i voted you for two reasons: you have several posts already that read like either trying to look like youre town but doesnt do anything gamesolvey, or just really scummy/bad. I also think that youll be pretty easy to get a read on once we put you under some pressure, so youre a good place to start.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

pedit: be taken out? arent you the one refusing to answer questions? town has no reason to hide their intentions or thought process.

another good way to generate content is to get some wagons going. there are four of us who arent even voting! thats no good. not voting means you arent expressing an opinion, and not engaging with the game is scummy.

VOTE: joqiza
joqiza has been actively posting, but hasnt voted or said anything meaningful iirc.

pedit: ok, then why are you lurking now? i guess you said you forgot about this game, but tsk tsk.

midway, do you really interpret me backing off of DkK as "i give up" that seems like a pretty bad misrepresentation of what i said.

Hm... I want to unvote because the attitude is good and I'm seeing honesty, but on the other side that readlist reveal makes no sense...

Midway, do you think you can you sell me your Clemency/Votato wagons? Can you expand on the reason for your reads on them or are they just gutpings for now? It's okay if you have nothing.

I feel so damn lost in this game.

VOTE: maduisha this game deserves a good counter-wagon. the people need it. You've picked up on a tiny thing midway did and view it as scum, when it seems like it should pretty clearly be NAI. Your expressions of self-doubt read to me like scum trying to hedge so they can backtrack later.

when did I say that I thought she was always town, I only thought she was town after rereading. I liked what I saw, and her reaction to your accusations would be similar to mine. Stop making up evidence, and you said "vote comes back tomorrow night" yet you revote 26 minutes after...

you need to explain your progression better. It seems from what you said that you magically changed your mind.

And did you read any of the posts that happened in the 26 minutes between?

VOTE: apogee

this is so frustrating. If this is town votato, I can see why knightmare scumread you.
how am I hedging my final conclusion is that apogee is town? Can you read the post again?
this is so stupid

most of the post is says things that suggest that apogee is scum. then you turn around and start saying "hmm im not sure" and your conclusion is: scum+i dont know=town. thats called hedging, because you can later say "i should have listened to my initial thoughts and said scum."

Hold up I fail to see why lynching me first gives more information that literally any other first lynch. Votato you seem really happy to jump around wagons.

its only partly about the info. im just confident that theres scum in that set of people, so we win by lynching there. the order is based on probabilities. Also, im not really hopping wagon to wagon am i? my first real vote was on maduisha. my vote is currently still on maduisha.

do u see where you are self contradicting yourself/ reading your post about apogee i expected you to have a vote on him.

this. im pretty sure by now that if we just lynch apogee, midway, maduisha, clemency in that order we win. apogee midway seems like a likely scumpair. midway is floundering trying to act differently than last game, but is completely unable to take a firm stance on anything. the reasoning to defend apogee is poor. midway seems incapable of finding anything scummy to talk about. that makes midway apogee a scumpair. maybe we lynch midway first tho? maduisha is scum otherwise.

I have absolutely no clue why we are a likely scumpair.

because of defending without defending, and the strange way you guys interact. i dont buy it as genuine.

VOTE: votato
This guy has been dropping scumtells left and right
blatant buddying with DK, terrible logic, random votes, stupid reaction tests, jumping from wagon to wagon
the gig is up

pedit: probably because I defended you.

could you show me scumtells ive dropped? random votes in RVS really isnt a scumtell. tell me where my logic is bad. like specific examples. again, im not jumping wagons. and look how lively this game is. Scum wouldnt put effort into livening up a game. Scum!me would sit back and let apathy set in.

1. What real contribution?
2. Even after I clarified that I thought apogee was town, you still thought I was hedging
3.
4. Nope, I will not do that this time.

Lets stop this argument for now ok(until other people come back)

can we lynch this please?

1. my push on maduisha, and presure on you and apogee.
2. yes. being forced to take a stance does not take away from the fact that you initially HEDGED. jeez.
4. only scum has any reason whatsoever to hide their reads. VOTE: midway. youre way less cute now.

grammatically, quick said "unvote midway. i still scumread you." you in that sentence is midway. quick could have done a bad job of writing maybe.

VOTE: quick

VOTE: quick

Okay, what have I done that's Scummy? I am all ears. Go ahead, make your case. Otherwise you are just being opportunistic off midway Susing me.

read the thread. specifically, read my ISO. stop ignoring any and all questions asked of you.

Yeah ill at least compromise on the enomis lynch. i still really prefer quick or maduisha tho. VOTE: enomis please dont hammer until enomis has some time to defend himself, and until he has claimed or whatever else he wants to do. we have lots of time before deadline. if anyone lolhammers, im gonna come for you tomorrow and irl.

pedit: no. i think maduisha is more likely scum than enomis. but if im 2/3 or even 1/3 we can safely lynch all three of these scummy people and still win. also wagon =/= lynch, if theres really good reason not to go through on the lynch i wont. I'm willing to compromise on the wagon because a) pretty much any lynch is better than no lynch b) enomis is pretty scummy, and maybe the enomis wagon is right to see enomis as scummier than quick and maduisha. enomis has earned my vote with a well-run campaign. Against lesser competition I may well have been pushing enomis the whole time. but enomis is and has been in my lynchpool. anyone in that pool is worth pressure. its day 1, so im probably wrong, but thats the way the game works. in non-newbie lobbies people compromise about lynches all the time near deadline.

VOTE: quick

i bet he magically reappears

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

UNVOTE: . im starting to think that my solve ought to be maduisha and enomis.

He attacks people in many posts for self-doubt and hedgy behavior. While it's true he hasn't hedged verbally as much, he hedges in action all the time. He's happy to drop wagons he expresses conviction on with marginal explanation. Again, for someone who has gone after people for lacking sources and analysis, he provides very little genuine work of his own. Like, read his ISO. Compare how many posts he cites or provides good original analysis in to how often he attacks people for not citing or analyzing. Look at the number of wagon's he joins or "randoms/bs" into compared to how often he provides original or even substantive support to those wagons. His persistent insistence that people give read lists ties into this as well. On its own that would be NAI, but in this context it is circumstantial evidence. He wants information on who he can go after safetly. Look at his two read lists he offered:

town: DK, joqiza, ydrasse, votato
mild scum lean: enomis, quick
scum lean: midway, apogee
scum: maduisha

that should all be pretty apparent from my ISO. your slot comes with a slight scumlean from clemency, and youve done nothing to change that.

your turn. whats your readlist?

sure.

town: ydrasse, apogee, votato
null town: DkK
null scum: enomis
scum: Maduisha, joqiza

my reasoning for all these reads has been pretty clearly stated in my ISO, but id be happy to clarify.

Both are "safe." Both include people who have moved around a lot for reasons "explained in ISOs" which may or may not actually be explained. He shifts votes a ton.

2. Votato also has a big problem with seeking towncred. I'm going to spoiler pretty much all the posts where he claims either because of posting habits, WIFOM nightkills, or some other reason he should be considered town. I really don't think a town would feel the need to do this to the extent he did even when not being actively wagon-ed.

Spoiler: Votato seeking towncred

sorta. i explained that already. I think DK is fairly easy to read when under pressure. So I turned up the heat. I wasnt planning on making up scumreads all game, but the thread is completely dead, and apathy is really bad for towns, so I want to keep people active, emotional, and engaged.

another good way to generate content is to get some wagons going. there are four of us who arent even voting! thats no good. not voting means you arent expressing an opinion, and not engaging with the game is scummy.

VOTE: joqiza
joqiza has been actively posting, but hasnt voted or said anything meaningful iirc.

pedit: ok, then why are you lurking now? i guess you said you forgot about this game, but tsk tsk.

midway, do you really interpret me backing off of DkK as "i give up" that seems like a pretty bad misrepresentation of what i said.

i revived this game from the dead by starting some pressure on some people. Yeah, it was bullshit pressure, but look at all the stuff thats happening. I am also providing reads, asking probing questions, and doing some pretty effective shitposting.

i don't think this game was really dead, and you even admit that your pressure was stupid. Iirc the push you did outside of pushing DK was saying apogee+maidusha were scummy which I don't really get. Why don't you push people you think are scum instead of doing your so called bs pressure? Also, you said that DK was fairly easy to read under pressure, how do you even know that??

look at posts per hour before i did that, look at posts per hour now. look at the number of people who were coming under pressure then and now. i generally wait a bit to form firm reads, and the game was awkwardly not in RVS and awkwardly wagon-less. So i made up some stuff to get things going. look. it worked. except that people still arent voting. please vote. this isnt real life, your vote here matters. im pushing at someone i legit think is scummy now. i voted that person, and am waiting for replies and other people's reactions. im pretty sure DkK is pretty easy to read under pressure based on 1997. you were there.

for the record, i accused maduisha and apogee in post 229. the game started 3 and a half days before that, and there were 9 full pages of content. in ~52 hours since then there are 20 full pages of content. sounds like things got more lively. im not sure why thats such a big deal, but there you have it.

midway, this is a game of cooperation. for the uninformed majority to win, we have to work together. by hiding our thoughts, we allow the scum to hide their thoughts too. that said, blatantly anti-town behavior comes from town more often than scum. I'll unvote you provided that you share your reads and they make some measure of sense.

i mean i think you should evaluate my play post-flips. if it gave me good reads then it was good. or if im scum and it distracted you all then it was also good. i think it gave me good reads.

I've also been very aggressive, yet you scumread me. how do you reconcile the two?

so i think at this point that there is probably scum in joqiza and maduisha. Leaning towards it being joq. This kill is interesting. It's such a bad kill that it tells me that it was probably not SEs doing the kill. Midway was not the towniest player and certainly wasn't contributing. I don't want to get into wifom, but i think this kill actually clears me. There's no world in which liking midway helps scum!me. Yes he was tunnelling me. But he didn't have a case and no one was listening to him. I had no reason to kill him and the kill implicates me. Actually i think maduisha is on to something here. VOTE: joqiza

hmm i actually think midway's death implicates maduisha. it seems pretty clear that the kill was intended to make me look guilty. midway was tunneled on me 100%. But maduisha was too, and maduisha was far more cogent in her reasoning. if i were gonna kill someone who was tunneling me to take the pressure off, it woulda been her. scum trying to implicate me should also have killed her, because thats pretty obvious. yet midway died and maduisha is still alive. and maduisha has done nothing to develop or progress her reads. It could be really bad town play, but i think its more likely to come from scum.

Also note how its possible he sets up this "refugee in midwaybear dying" plan early on -- see 1360 and one other similar post way back I saw in his ISO and then lost where he says midway is too scummy to die. This is easy-to-see WIFOM, like really easy WIFOM, so votato trying to take refuge in it is concerning and a sign of scuminess. It could be a premeditated strat.

3. Votato often partially or fails to respond to cases on him, and like I've mentioned before doesn't really offer much original analysis or citation back while at the same time loudly extolling the virtues of citations. He has stumbled into fallacies and contradictions in a number of places. This point also comes in as you read his material and it just kind of feels evasive at some points. It seems a lot of the time his criticism of others deflects from his behavior.


Also, I'm not certain about scum-slips, and I am hesitant to speculate about power roles, but look at these three posts -- PS if you are a town power role that provides support/opposition to this case one way or another please please do not bring it up even obliquely we don't want to give away more information:

Spoiler: Scumslip maybe

yeah, we know you're a mafia goon.

4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

almost like the scum are spamming the thread to distract us. that tells me theres a slip buried somewhere early game that they are trying to separate us from.

Could be a votato (as scum) who knows we are playing in a column C game (leading to 6 townies, 1 town PR and 2 mafia goons)? This is a bit of a reach. But I think we have seen projecting-as-distraction votato before so it might be worth thinking about. Its hard to know how to read quips but some of this is ehhh (and not just the quotes here some other "jokes" are concerning.

As a final note, this could be bad analysis, and if I'm making a big deal out of a bunch of NAI behavoir, I'd appriciate if people would let me know. But I am pretty convinced there is enough here that votato has to be one of the main focuses of pushes today. I'd like to hear from votato ofc but also other people about what they think.

Pairings up next

[DkKoba]

I stopped by my families but apogee has progressed my thoughts on my final scumpool for lynch for today.

[Apogee]

OK possible pairings for votato:


DkKoba: Don't see it. Earlier on conflict felt real, also don't think he is scum anyways.
Enomis: Outside possibility but unlikely. Could be some distancing earlier but nothing about interactions suggest a pairing.
Madiusha. Most unlikely to be pair in my opinion. EOD and start of the day today the conflict felt too real. Also, she was the only one on his wagon. I've suggested before how risky it would be to do that.

Onto the more interesting:

Joqiza. I could be convinced. I honestly don't find his actions today super scummy, but the tone shift is mildly concerning. Put off by the fact that almost certainly one person on his wagon is scum as well. Interesting interaction with votato in 1805 that could be setting up distancing earlier however if the "safe delay" crowd on the lynch is right.

Ydrasse: Ok I think there is real merit to this scumpair, but what I am concerned by is the lack of a case imo for overall scumminess, which is why I have been asking DkKoba and Joqiza about thier votes there. Here are all the posts where Votato mentions or quotes Ydrasse in a substantive manner:

Spoiler: Ydrasse/Votato

i read the thread. i voted you for two reasons: you have several posts already that read like either trying to look like youre town but doesnt do anything gamesolvey, or just really scummy/bad.

I also think that youll be pretty easy to get a read on once we put you under some pressure, so youre a good place to start

.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

pedit: be taken out? arent you the one refusing to answer questions? town has no reason to hide their intentions or thought process.

what posts specifically are scummy to you? i don't think it's bad to push obvi but i don't know which ones you think stand out as especially offensive.

well i do think that DkK seems way to easily convinced by clemency. That would be a pretty easy lie for clemency to tell. I bolded the most relevant part of that post though. DkK gets very aggro and emotional when under pressure, and i think you can pretty easily get a peek at what lies under the spammy, mildly annoying exterior. After pushing him, I have him on a solid town read. I haven't seen him in any scum games, so I could easily be wrong. But, he's right. this is exactly how town!DkK thinks and acts. I also dont really see what he sees in enomis.

In short: I didn't think DkK was really all that scummy, I just thought he'd be an easy place to get a read. Turns out I was right! UNVOTE:

yeah you're right, i picked two names on the list that i hadnt seen as much memorable content from, and said they were scummy. gotta generate that content somehow

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

Yeah I kinda figured this was a reaction test but I hoped it would generate a few other responses.

I'll elaborate on Ydrasse. Tbh their approach honestly seems kinda like how I try to approach town right now? A little hesitancy to jump forward too hard on any wagon, a mix of questions and reactions, and feels pretty genuine. Seems like Ydrasse sincerely wants content and a measured analysis of it. To the extent I have hesitance, it would be her not seeming to commit to particular ideas super hard, but that applies to me and quite a few other people.

DkKoba I'm not super leaning either way. I agree with Maduisha that he felt more frustrated than anything the last few pages, but I'm less convinced that's necessarily tvt then she is.

Midway I've commented on quite a few times, and I want to reserve further judgement until they post the analysis they promised. I'm hesitant with the fluffposting they have done, but I guess that's not necessarily scummy, although in a vacuum I normally would think it is (other people might have their own experience -- this is my first online game so I'm not super familiar with how much of that is to be expected).

p-edit: a bunch happened while I typed this. I'll look over all of it and post thoughts in a bit

generally id say hesitancy to join a wagon seems more like scum wanting to see which way the wind is blowing before committing. I see the town motivation too since its a newbie game, but I think this game currently suffers from insufficient confidence and aggression from most people (and too much from myself and DkK).

oh, and please call me either he, she, or it. not they.

Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.

I insist my explanation of the wagon being useful doesn't detract from the usefulness of the wagon at all because of what I already said. The reasons to vote me and the reasons not to vote me exist regardless of anything I said. This means people will have reasons to join, leave it, or avoid it no matter how much I talk about it. Even refusing to communicate a read is communication, if you get what I mean. For example, Midway has joined the wagon a bit late even though he had been saying he scumreads me lightly for a couple of pages. The fact that he did not start the wagon himself at all is information. The fact that he did not counterwagon my wagon on him is also information. I am more inclined to believe Midway is town after seeing how he interacted with my wagon. Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should confuse lynch wagons for a reaction test: what I'm looking for is logic behind a push and the timing of said logic being reasonable within the slot's behavior until now, not just to see if people vote or not. And if I get policy lynched for being controversial, then we gather evidence from the way people joined a wagon, specially if they had a bigger scumread and still decided to capitalize on me.

As to why didn't I go after someone that isn't Midway immediately: I already replied Joqiza about it, but it's also in great part that I have a wagon on me and I want to see interactions with it.

okay, you have a wagon on you. good, we can see this. we can see interactions on it.

you have to understand how it makes you look though to just sit back and say. "yep, gonna wait for people to interact and vote on this instead of trying to actively find scum myself and instead let them come out of the woodwork." right? like. you can analyze the wagon on you all you want, more power to you, but you need to also be doing some of your own legwork in this situation. it's frustrating to not have any real push from you and instead spend most of the game focusing on a slot and then poof, nothing, no vote, just gonna hang out on the off chance someone does something that i can point out.

i just want to note that you completely sheeped my argument from two posts above. interesting.

just read my interactions with votato
they speak for themselves. votato was my original scumread, so I am not trying to throw around anything that sticks...

that actually doesnt make sense given what ydrasse just said. and QUOTE MY SCUMMY POSTS. ANALYZE. dont just say you think things, say why!!!!!!

town: DK, joqiza, ydrasse, votato
mild scum lean: enomis, quick
scum lean: midway, apogee
scum: maduisha

that should all be pretty apparent from my ISO. your slot comes with a slight scumlean from clemency, and youve done nothing to change that.

your turn. whats your readlist?

i wish i could be inside midway's head i want to do science experiments on his brain

+1

to those who just posted and arent commenting on quick: what is it that makes you still townread there?

quick is null for me, leaning scum; however, their style/posting admittedly makes it hard for me to read them since it's not... conventional? at least to what i've seen. so i don't feel comfortable stating for sure that i think they're scum For Sure when i'm having trouble sorting them.

like, i don't think quick's iso is literally every single post is bad, ever; i used dkkoba's post by post analysis to skim through a lot of quick's iso and i think to some degree they're reading to confirm their own suspicions rather than like... actually sieving out what might be Okay and what is Bad. which has already been said, granted, but i think merits a bit of note.

however, i will say that quick's latest posts are definitely not great compared to how he started out when he subbed in, for sure.

Ydrasse something DkKoba and I have both expressed is that we cannot really point to many posts by Quick and and say "oh, that is a towny post." Do you see anything that indicates them being a town? I'll agree the style does make it difficult, but over what, 150+ posts how often can you say what he posts is town?

as i've already stated, i think that as the game's progressed it's been harder and harder for me to see a lot of town motivation behind quick. i am just scared though that quick might be doing some big brained wifom strategy with this like, aloof/blasé sort of gameplay. which is probably too complex of an explanation but i just don't get his behavior.

if so a bit more pressure should reveal that. i was wondering that too for a long time, but i really dont think so based on recent posts. He's flailing around voting and giving poor reasoning and changing his mind 180 degrees repeatedly. I'm not sure that we should lynch, but im pretty damn sure we should force a claim or at least a proper defense.

hi sorry for not being around as much i haven't been feeling too hot.

of the lynches proposed today i only feel comfortable with voting either enomis or quick. i'm not voting votato. his game has gotten progressively stronger fmpov as the day progressed. for maduisha, i think that since she's bunkered down and started pushing more, analyzing and the like she's moved up a bit in my eyes, even if i don't agree with her reads.

idk why quick keeps bringing up roles, it seems too blatant to be fishing but it also makes my head hurt and i think i might be overthinking it. either way there's no one else other than these two i would lynch.

this. except id also be down to at least pressure maduisha, although at this point that should wait until tomorrow.

apogee and Dk have said pretty explicitly that they see no merit to my wagon. Dk varies sometimes, so its possible in theory. if anyone else wants to hammer me i ask the same courtesy, but i dont think they will. Ydrasse has also said iirc that he wont lynch me, at least not today.

maduisha, didn’t i explain at the time why i was voting you? (i’m on mobile since i’m working or else i’d nab the post itself).

votato came into the game pushing on dkkoba, but over time they seem to have aligned more even if dkkoba did/does (?) find votato to be scummy.

Dk should be finding votato Scummy regardless of votato's alignment.

ydrasse means that DkK and i have similar thoughts and reads. we are in sync, so to speak. ydrasse and apogee are similarly aligned. its a townblock, yo.

I don't understand your question. When I made that post, I was willing to put him in my lynchpool because of those red flags and my evaluation of him as a player. At the end of the day, I lynched Quick over votato because there were 1000 posts in between that read list and the hammer and Quick scumtold and votato didn't. Actually votato towntold a bit imo.

Are you ignoring the fact that Ydrasse and votato both TR me yesterday and opened up today by putting me on L-1? We're their TRs on me that weak? Why am I being held to this standard where I can never reconsider anything but they aren't?

a few things. 1) the legwork has been done to call out your inconsistencies. 2)flips help thoughts develop, so reads should change. the reason we FoS you is that you are citing old posts (really really old sometimes) to justify your reads, yet your actions have changed. thats not an organic progression. you cant both have the same reads as early yesterday and also be pushing different people. you're largely ignored the case against you, and haven't done much to elaborate on your thoughts.

however, it leaves in my "i would feel comfortable lynching this today" pool: joqiza, votato, dkkoba. of which i think are potential scum teams in joqiza/dkkoba and joqiza/votato. i don't think that dkkoba/votato is as likely, but given the attempts made at times to create a sense of distance between the two (votato saying there was a townblock and dkkoba immediately shutting that idea down), there is a chance of it. i am not so sure of it, though, as to put weight in it.

to me that interaction clears DkK pretty much. if Dk were scum he wouldnt push back against being in a townblock.

sure.

town: ydrasse, apogee, votato
null town: DkK
null scum: enomis
scum: Maduisha, joqiza

my reasoning for all these reads has been pretty clearly stated in my ISO, but id be happy to clarify.

My Ydrasse read is based on consistent solid posting and our reads/thinking being very much aligned for the majority of the game. Ydrasse said a few times "get out of my head" but just as often, I find myself agreeing 100% with Ydrasse or planning on saying something, only to find that Ydrasse already said it.
Apogee is similar. I feel that Apogee has had a lot of fluff posts, but some good posts and generally solid thought progressions. Today Apogee hasn't really done much. I'm not sure I like the reasoning behind the vote on me: "I'm way behind and not sure, but here's a gut feeling without really being up on the last 30-40 pages." That said, still mostly good reads and progression.

well Ydrasse, what do you think the motivations behind such a quick turnaround would be for scum!votato and for town!votato?

Obviously the vast majority of this is NAI. However, a few things stand out.

1) Ydrasse is a townlock to votato. The fact votato props her up quite a bit, often subtly
2) His suggestion Ydrasse and I should form/are a townblock
3) Hints of mild distancing early on turning to more outright support later
4) More interaction between the slots in the latter half of the game

I'm not 100% certain, and Ydrasse would 100% be the second lynch I'd advocate for, and ofc I want to hear a defense and more arguments about Ydrasse's inherent scuminess. I'll probably look at that next.

[Apogee]

To be honest, one big reason I think Ydrasse is votato's scumbuddy if he is scum is because of POE on most others to a greater degree. I realized I didn't articulate that as clearly as I could have above.

[DkKoba]

I am HOME.
*cracks knuckles*

[DkKoba]

also I feel better now mentally, so no more v/la for me.

it's time to do another iso adventure.

i was gonna do votato but that is 2 many posts for tonight + I think the case against him has been exhausted.

my scumpool as of now based on recent posts is Ydrasse-Votato-------Joqiza

before I begin I'm going to repark my vote here: VOTE: votato
I think I feel my confidence in this game coming back. Now I will be back in 45 minutes - 2 hours with longpost

[DkKoba]

Sorry, was busy earlier, but wanted to write this post before I go to sleep.

I wanna preface that I think that the “pushes for content” are at the point where they are not conducive to town win condition. This is simply because we are at the point where we are forcing multiple players to L-1 and starting to narrow down PRs via claims/softclaims. We’ve already forced a softclaim out of Maduisha which means if she is not scum than mafia have a narrowed list of players to hit for PR. Following that, I’ve gone through and re-evaluated the players that I think are up for the lynch today. You can skip to the end but the tl;dr is that I want enomis lynched and I’m going to push for it from this point on. He is the one player that I am most confident will flip scum, based both on evaluation of his slot as well as PoE. I expand on this below, starting with the current midwaybear wagon:

---

Midwaybear

@Dk I need to talk to you at some point, maybe tomorrow, but I’m not sure I really follow the reason for this lynch, and I don’t really understand the incentive behind running this guy up again if it’s for content because we already had a wagon on him earlier in the day.

I think I mentioned I was having problems reading this guy in the beginning of this game: posts like 188 and 209 I simply have trouble reading for alignment. I’m naturally paranoid of these sorts of “too innocent to be scum” posts due to certain players I’ve played with on my home site. Honestly the majority of midwaybear’s early game is of little to no value and I am just disregarding it.

In order to try to determine midwaybear’s alignment I’ve gone through not only this game but his latest 1997 game, in which he was mafia, linked here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=82731. Side note day 1 of that game was fucking hilarious. What’s really worth noting is that some of midwaybear’s posts in 1997 were truly terrible (he outed read lists a couple times that were genuinely scummy, usually justified with a single vague sentence). The other thing is that as scum he would ask so many damn QUESTIONS. Literally take a look at his ISO and see how many question marks there are:

(below posts are all screenshots from midwaybear 1997 scum game. Look at the lack of conviction in every single post he makes)






Nowhere in the ISO of midwaybear’s 1997 game will you find a post such as 566 or 696, in which midwaybear expresses strong conviction in reads supported with actual, post-cited evidence. Admittedly, in both 566 or 595, I find the bear’s chain of logic somewhat twisted, but I think this may be one of those journey over destination sort of things. Maybe I am looking at it with confirmation bias because 1997 bear is confirmed to me whereas 2003 bear is still an unknown quantity, but every post 1997 bear made leaps off the page as scum, he is basically hardclaiming it to me in every post, his absolute refusal to take any kind of definitive stance in that game is extremely scum-indicative.

I am going to make a rough evaluation of bear as a player and say that he is not radically capable of switching his scum-game up this much between two consecutive games, I think based on Occam’s razor just suggests he is town here. I will hear you out Dk but for now that is my read on midwaybear.

---

Maduisha

There are two players that I’ve scumread throughout the course of the day, but at this present time I don’t feel that either of them would make a good lynch today, these players are Maduisha and Apogee.

On Maduisha, it is difficult to evaluate the slot for me personally, I found the most recent content somewhat upsetting in that I felt I upset her if she does flip town. I do think that her inability to give scumreads is troubling: this is my preferred “thing” to look for when I’m determining alignment, so my best tool in evaluating her is basically taken away from me. Secondly, even if she’s town—and I truly mean no offense by this, it is showing a weakness in identifying mafia which would be obviously problematic going forward.

My hesitation in lynching her today is simply her response to being put at L-1.

One: She essentially put the gun to her forehead and shouted “DO IT” which is generally town-indicative although very frustrating and anti-town in general.

Two: She has essentially hardclaimed vanilla townie in post 492, and furthermore softed it in posts 366, 368, 459—probably others. This consistency in a VT softclaim is simply not what I’d expect from a scum player being racked up to L-1, with intense scrutiny on them, if I were scum there I would probably claim PR there in order to fish, or at least permit myself the flexibility to do so if I thought I might be hammered. Claiming VT is obviously not totally alignment-indicative, but it indicates that if Maduisha is scum she essentially gambited here, as I do think she was in danger of being lynched at that point in time.

---

Apogee

When I outed my initial scumread on post 375 on Apogee, I did not scumread him as strongly as I perhaps tried to indicate during this push—I did find his behavior scummy but I “leaned into it” in a sense in order to try to get a better gauge on him. I do still feel like much of his early game behavior is questionable, but Apogee responded with about as fair an explanation as one could offer: I rate his scum game fairly high if he does indeed flip scum. He stayed very cool under pressure, offered a town-POV explanation for every action he made, made no attempt to “bully” me off my read and even conceded certain points, and lastly I just really like his opening to post 388.

I am not sure why Apogee immediately reciprocated midwaybear’s TR only to then walk it back—I think that was another questionable thing that has happened, but I really don’t think it reads at all like a midwaybear/Apogee scumteam, I think that’s kind of wild frankly and if anything it is a pocket of one player to another. I really don’t know where the scumteam read comes from as I very rarely have seen scum defend each other so blatantly at this stage of the game.

Lastly, Apogee outs a fairly strong readlist on post 730, which is enough to convince me to argue against a lynch of him today. Yes, out of personal preference I would rather have him be taking harder stances on players rather than null/light scumleans, but I also respect the need to be honest to one’s level of read if town, and in general I think his willingness to engage with us and actually make these sorts of posts means we should keep him around. I think after 730, despite certain behavior patterns I find suspicious, I do ultimately townread him or at least townlean him.

Enomis

First thing I’m gonna do is re-hash my initial read on enomis, which remains relatively unchanged.

Enomis

Cites some basic mechanics in their intro post, I consider that NAI given it’s a newbie game. Questions both Apogee and Clemency immediately based on misconstruing their words, interpreting their statements in the most literal way possible, possibly a slight language barrier. Super questionable how they double down both on the scumslip and on pretty much everything DkKoba says, also their TR on Apogee makes absolutely no sense, I rr post #65, dude TRs Apogee because they are “genuinely scumhunting” because they are using the term “wolf” and newb town wouldn’t do that? Dafuq?? On Post #301 has an absolutely garbage teamread on me/Koba which I think he knows he can’t even commit to, let me ask you something, have you EVER seen one scum partner say “my partner is hard town I will never vote them until I die” on DAY 1 of a game where you have TWO mislynches? Answer is no, that is never a scumteam and any experienced player should know that. Remains obsessed with pushing clemency as of #303 for more nai statements after I already clarified why their logic on Clemency’s slip doesn’t make sense, really seems to be working backwards from a “Clemency is scum” which they’ve already decided on, so at best is confirmation bias, at worst is scum-motivated. Analysis: scum read

With enomis I have not gotten the sense that any of his reads are genuine, whether it be scumread OR townread.
Let me quote part of post 65 which is probably one of the most damning IMO:

Publishing my reads so far:

Apogee

- Town Lean. Feels like genuinely scumhunting and using terms like "wolf" which sometimes newb town uses because they are not used to calling scums "mafia".

Clemency

- Scum Lean. For the scumslip and a few other stuff which i don't like.
Also:

statistically speaking everyone is town until proven otherwise

Feels like a convoluted way to explain the slip. I don't know, probably NAI.
Then:

UNVOTE:
i think other slots are higher priority to push rn
i'd pick one if i wasnt walking home atm

But went ahead to post a few posts without pushing anyone.

My vote stays on Clemency until I find someone else scummier.
@Clemency: I would like to see your push on someone else.

I would like to go ahead and add Post 166 to the case file: seems to express intent to have DkKoba lynched despite referring to them in a town which implies they think they are town.

Enomis has avoided engaging me since I entered the game and has basically slipped away from any of my attempts to point out the flaws in his logic. None of his reads make any sense to me, and in the past couple days his content has dried up completely.

The last reason I scumread him is entirely speculative/admittedly a reach, but I think it may possible that enomis is slipping maf knowledge at several points in the game. Post 202 potentially reads as a slip of midwaybear being town, and there is another post I can’t find rn but might look for later where I thought enomis might be slipping Maduisha as town as well.

I have been asking for them to re-evaluate the Clemency slot, and, in general, play the game in a more holistic manner for a long time now, and they are (along with Clemency himself) one of the players who has most steadfastly refused to do so. As a result, I believe that even if I’m wrong and they are town, they are still an adequate lynch today in terms of playing to the larger town win condition, I do not want them going forward to tomorrow or possibly LYLO. I do not trust their logic nor their reads, and I find a lot of their posts insincere. This is the only player at the table that at the moment I can say I genuinely and truly scumread.

TL;DR/Summary

The three lynches I have really considered today are Maduisha/Apogee/enomis, and of those three my strong preference is enomis. This is not a reaction test nor a “push for content,” as of rn my intent is to have enomis in the graveyard unless he comes back and truly drops thunder and makes me re-evaluate. I have learned to keep an open mind about these things but rn the urge to death tunnel within me.

To give some space for discussion/re-evaluation, @enomis, what I would want is a read list, and who you would want lynched if it were not you, and why.

If there is a 4th player I would throw into my above lynchlist, it would be votato, simply because he seems more capable as a player and there are certain red flags which I’ve noticed. That said, if he is scum he is playing fairly well IMO and he was the first person outside of Koba to actually take initiative and try to evaluate my slot, even if the attempt was surface-level, in my personal experience this has been strongly strongly town-indicative.

The rest of the players at the table I don’t really want lynched today for reasons I’m already talked about. To be honest, as of rn I am evaluating every single one of my TRs, but I think this is an inter-day thing, I want enomis lynched and if I am alive on Day 2 then I come back and re-think everything based on the information from his flip.

It’s about 2am my time and I have work tomorrow so I’m probably not going to respond to any questions for awhile, but I should be around a bit for my lunch break and tomorrow evening.

VOTE: Enomis

requoting this post bc it is important.

[Apogee]

I'm probably off to sleep soon so if anyone has questions, comments, or concerns they would like to talk about before then pipe up now.

Otherwise I'll be back in the morning and drop some responses then. Quiet day huh?

[DkKoba]

im slow and easily distracted by youtube sorry. im like 33% done lol

[votato]

ok let me take the apogee case

1)joining wagons with the intent of pressuring.
guilty. early game, thats how you get the game moving. thats the site meta. i did it, was pretty up front about it, and stopped doing it after we were solidly out of RVS. note that after about post 500, my votes become very stable for the majority of the day, until the very end of the day when we were deciding a lynch, so my vote moved around between viable wagons. Compromising is important - you might not get the lynch you prefer, but its important to have a lynch. I was pretty happy with the lynch we got, although i would have preferred Maduisha. again, you have to look at the context. and you ignored all the posts where i justified my views. thats pretty dishonest. Theres a difference between joining a wagon for the sake of creating wagons and game progression in the early game and not having a justified reason for being on a wagon late-game.


2)looking for towncred
meh, half true. a lot of what you cited as examples of this arent seeking towncred, just explaining my actions since its a newbie lobby and even some of the experienced players arent familiar with site meta. But its flat out not true that i wasnt under pressure. I was consistently one of the most popular wagons yesterday. Almost from the second i replaced in there was pressure on me. Two players deathtunneled me all day yesterday, plus quick who was pretty close to doing the same. I was at L-1 for a significant period. Convincing people not to kill me was pretty important.

3)not responding to cases and scumslips
you say i didn't respond to cases, but you didnt cite a single example of something i didnt address. not one. how the fuck am i supposed to defend myself if you say you state a case but dont actually? and if you ask pretty much any of the most experienced players on the site theyll tell you that scumslips arent a real thing 99% of the time. maybe an idiot does something really dumb once in a while, but certainly not three times per game. we are talking like one out of 10-15 games maybe youll see something, and even then people wont pick up on it because its only possible to see it if youre scum. And if you dont think i provided original analysis you didnt read my ISO. in fact you cited a few examples above of my original analysis.

the things you're looking for as scum tells arent necessarily AI. points 2 and 3 certainly arent. point 1 isnt in this context. look at my reads. look at how they evolved. does it feel natural to you? it should.

as for my scum pairings, pretty much everyone saw ydrasse as town yesterday. but today youlll note ive been starting to question whether thats a good idea. ydrasse kinda just floated by actively lurking.

did i respond to your case? my guess is that people will say i didnt, but then not actually point to things that i didnt answer. because thats how its been all game. you dont get to ignore half my posts and then make up your own bullshit story based on the other half to paint whatever narrative is convenient. this case is bullshit.

[joqiza]

i don't see a world where you flip town. your logic about your hammer and trying to explain it through your explanation b situation didn't make sense because your intentions don't match up with the reality of your posts at all. in reality what you've done today is little more than ate to people when the pressure gets on you and try to deflect their reads as bad.

i've tried to understand where you're coming from and i just can't. your behavior is at odds with what you've been saying no matter how many times you try to explain it.

This post didn't feel right to me so I broke it down.

1. i don't see a world where you flip town

I feel like we’ve interacted maybe three times so far on Day 2. I accept reasonable suspicion, but it doesn’t feel like you’ve put in a sincere effort to determine my alignment, and it’s that which concerns me. Your level of read here isn’t commensurate with the level of content/scumhunting that should be required to attain it. You are either wildly overconfident or just trying to get me lynched… neither is a particularly good look.

2. your explanation b situation didn't make sense because your intentions don't match up with the reality of your posts at all.

Okay, let’s rewind and look at my “explanation B.” I am trying to get in your brain here.

B: I wanted to temporarily make it seem like I was genuinely considering between Quick/votato because I wanted to know if I should hammer quick or lead a counterwagon on an alternative, (and once I'd settled on Quick I explained this very thing.)

Now let’s see how you refuted this explanation.

the reality is is that... you are explaining yourself, and have explained yourself multiple times now. but you say b to me, and tell me you wanted everyone to think that you were considering between the two, but your actions don't... line up with it?

as early as 1517 you said you'd be okay with voting quick. and you confirm in 1748 that you... weren't going to hammer votato, i.e. the implication everyone else receives is that you'll hammer quick. like, nowhere is it really conveyed at any point that you were ever going to really consider votato.

it is your reality; only you know your intentions, and i am trying to follow along here but i genuinely don't see how your posts convey explanation b at all, i'm sorry. the logic just... breaks for me.

It’s still a bit unclear to me exactly what you’re arguing in this post, but if I’m interpreting correctly, you’re saying that my explanation B doesn’t make sense because you don’t believe I was ever going to hammer votato. And you’d probably be correct. I tried to reread with an open mind, but I don’t think I ever saw myself ever hammering votato. The reread of both player’s ISOs just cemented that.

But that

has nothing to do with my explanation B.

My explanation B is not about whether I was going to hammer between votato or Quick, it was that I wanted

Quick and the other players at the hammer in realtime with me to think I might hammer votato.

And let’s see how those players reacted?

Spoiler: Midwaybear

it is unnecessary to add goon
scum often do things that are unnecessary

wait that's a legit scumslip lol
just vote him already

i do not see why votato has not been hammered yet

JUST VOTE AND HAMMER HIM
we don't need to argue rn

cuz he's going to do some bs explanation and you will believe him no doubt
besides, wasn't that a scumslip?

um his explanation for the scumslip makes no sense
what is this

Spoiler: Quick

Literally votato's whole ISO is stuff like this.

JUST VOTE AND HAMMER HIM
we don't need to argue rn

why do you want me to hammer before he even has the chance to respond?

Do you really expect a good response from them? I already told you, votatos whole ISO is basically just the same thing you are questioning them on.

I should know WHAT better, Quick? I asked you twice earlier and you still havent answered

and on the experience question, I played a ton of chat mafia.

Okay, so you DON'T have much experience with Forum Mafia? Specifically on MS?

Okay, maybe you are all just bad Townies and don't know what you are doing at all?

I will reevaluate things in NP.

VOTE: votato

Spoiler: DkKoba

when joqiza does more in literally 1 post to convince me that votato is scum than anyone else has during this whole game arc.

Really? You were convinced votato had good content until this point, huh?

tell me where I said votato has good content.

i went to the post that votato posted to find context and i scrolled down to see votato effectively rebutting midway and I'm really not lynching votato today unless I have to. votato, while chaotic, has been generally receptive, been active, put himself out there, and created content. While I have not ISO'd votato as closely as I have others, I have found him not to be a useful d1 lynch based on how he has been proactive. I do acknowledge he has said questionable things but this is outweighed by his usefulness + willingness to be cooperative.

It makes perfect sense and goes along with his erratic personality in 1997. You need to prove scum motivation.

Are you really trying to argue that the three players present did not take the posts I brought up on votato seriously? The intention of my posts wasn't so much fake consideration, it was more an assessment of reactions from Quick (and other players present at the moment). My original intent was to assess if Quick would use the posts opportunistically to push a votato lynch and if he flipped scum, the reactions would prove useful. In another universe, Quick is mafia and midwaybear is his partner, but unfortunately it didn’t turn out that way. Regardless, even though the utility of the reaction test is limited simply by the fact that two of those players are already dead and their alignments confirmed, I still maintain it was a useful move and gave us information and reactions in real-time.

Now, for the real question Ydrasse, which is:

why are you pretending to read my posts?

it is your reality; only you know your intentions, and i am trying to follow along here but i genuinely don't see how your posts convey explanation b at all, i'm sorry. the logic just... breaks for me.

If you are genuinely trying to follow along, why are you refuting my intention of assessing Quick’s reaction without citing any posts of Quick’s reaction? Why did you simply cite two posts which relate to my intention of hammering votato instead of my intent to make Quick believe that I might hammer votato? I understand that the logic requires a little bit of thought, but I think if you actually go back and reread the pages… it’s not really that hard. And I’ve asked you multiple times by now. I hope you understand why I’m starting to feel like you’re not arguing in good faith.

Lastly, from the final part of your quote on me:

3. in reality what you've done today is little more than ate to people when the pressure gets on you and try to deflect their reads as bad.

I accept that I responded emotionally at the beginning of Day 2, and I don’t think there’s any reason for anyone to TR that. I don’t think that kind of response is necessarily AI, though, I think AtE is generally a red flag when it’s accompanied by a lack of other content. But I took a breath, stepped back, and for most of today I’ve been trying to assess the alignments of the people on my wagon. Can you really say with a straight face that 2286 and 2289 are AtE and deflecting reads? I am trying to engage with the three people who voted me directly.

I will be honest, my self-centered/slightly ego style of gameplay gives me the urge to simply OMGUS you into the graveyard without regard for your flip. But I’m faced with the certainty that at least one of you/Maduisha/votato is town and I’m trying to play to my win condition despite the fact that this game feels somewhat like purgatory. So, read through my posts again and tell me if you still reject “explanation B,” and if so, explain.

[joqiza]

and btw, I'm tired of responses like this:

however, i don't see the point in trying to argue this when it's ultimately a perspective thing on how you want to view the motivations of the players; we all currently have our narratives going on for why people are doing x or y, and going around in a circle gets us nowhere.

it is your reality; only you know your intentions, and i am trying to follow along here but i genuinely don't see how your posts convey explanation b at all, i'm sorry. the logic just... breaks for me.

i've tried to understand where you're coming from and i just can't. your behavior is at odds with what you've been saying no matter how many times you try to explain it.

You don't get to handwave away a scumread with intent to lynch.

[Ydrasse]

you know, i was going to try and level that yet again, despite the intentions that joqiza tries to explain in his 'b' scenario fall apart because the simple reality of his actions being at direct odds with his ~intentions. however, i don't think it's going to get much farther, because it seems that me pointing out that saying "i am not gonna hammer votato" etc etc directly cancels out this supposed mindset doesn't garner much scrutiny.

people are reading the vt claim as "oh no, he wouldn't do that". they're refusing to look at the ate and defeatist attitude and "oh i'll just omgus you to the grace idc what you are " as scum who's been caught out and knows, and i'm not gonna play that charade when i know the mafia is very well why i am being confident day two, given the fact joqiza is very obviously talking about my break in attitude. the fact that there have been so many softs/outright claims to roles too means that i feel it is easier to simply do it like this, since the mafia most likely knows:

i hard claim town cop. joqiza is mafia. i am currently choosing to view votato's "mafia goon" post as an informed scumslip as of this moment.

yell at me if you want for outing this but i feel this is the safest move for now. a lot of people have their eyes on me, so i most likely was going to be pushed to this point anyways — in reality, i am quite happy i got by yesterday as i did given all the people that seemed intent on talking about roles. i want to avoid the risk of being quickhammered.

[joqiza]

:O

[joqiza]

Wow I must be miller :3

[Ydrasse]

die, scum!

[Ydrasse]

it's okay, at least your five stages of grief meme made me laugh.