Newbie 2005 [Game Over!]

[ItalianoVD]

I am here. I’m going to catch up with the prior pages to get a better idea of what’s going on before I vote.

[ItalianoVD]

After reading everything up to this point I am going to vote for piisirrational

Here’s why.

In general terms, scum, wolf, alien, whoever the bad guy is, they want to fit in so everyone can see that they are town and that makes sense to me.

It also makes sense that town want to find scum not try to look town.

Guess who else is trying to look like town? Town.

I’m not familiar with the meta on this site yet, but to me that stands out to more than what pi pointed out on NK15 here:

I have NK15 as a scum lean thus far mainly due to his eagerness of quicklynching me right at the beginning of Day 1. Town have no reason to do this, especially before they’ve considered every possible scum scenario, unless they already know someone’s alignment, which can only come from a result of a power role.

To me it seems like someone who has latched onto who they feel is scum and not budging from it. I’ve done so in wolf games outside this forum and more often than not that person was wolf or scum. Forgive me, I’ll eventually get all the lingo on here down. So to make it official.

VOTE: piisirrational

[ItalianoVD]

Also, what I find interesting is how NK15 moved off of pii and onto Aloratom. You seemed so sure that pii was scum. Sure enough to suggest a quicklynch.

Why move away? And then onto someone who doesn’t look like scum at all, at least to me.

[ItalianoVD]

They explained this in posts 170 and 249.

I understand, but the reasoning was sort of hard to understand and too advanced for me to truly get it, so that’s why I’d like an answer that’s a little more watered down if you will.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: italianoVD. did not like that catch up. this slot has not gotten any townier

I don’t know what this means, so could you explain?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay, I will explain my thoughts better. Sorry if I was being vague.

While I was reading through the prior pages, NK15 and Homura seemed like the most experienced just based on how they were interacting with you and because I don’t know anyone’s styles, habits, or tells, I was going to follow one of them. NK15 was the only one to vote so I figured he had figured you out. It made sense to me because as I stated it’s a tell that has been proven to be as scum/wolf before.

Also when I mentioned your post about when you said that Town try to look town. I disagree with that and that’s why it stood out to me. The reason I disagree is because town don’t TRY to look town (meaning they don’t intentionally try to post and act town) they unintentionally do by trying to solve the puzzle and catch the scum. Town also don’t truly care how they are perceived. Because they have nothing to hide they don’t usually fight as hard to appear right. Scum TRY to look town and do all the things town don’t feel inquired to do, so to me that statement is deceitful.

That post along with what NK15 pointed out in your first post is why I agree or agreed with him and why I asked him to explain why he took his vote off of you and onto Aloratom. I don’t know about quicklynch so I don’t know the pros and cons of that, but NK15 obviously felt a strong enough read from you to even mention it. From what I saw Aloratom’s suspicion didn’t quite outweigh yours and it seemed like the explanation, which was very wordy, seemed to be weaker than what he assumed he had on you.

Also I don’t know what constitutes good catch up post from bad ones, but I do know that these were the main things that stood out to me.

Egix96, gobbledygook, Aloratom, and Homura seem the most town to me because nothing they did or said stood out to me.

I’m leaning more towards town for NK15, but just want him to explain why he thinks his read on Aloratom is stronger than his read on you.

The ones I feel iffy on so far are you, Snowblaze, and Votato

You

for reasons I’ve already stated.

Snowblaze

came in to post about hating timezones and that they were present and that you were pinging her radar, but didn’t want to vote for you before hearing from other people. Then placed a vote on Aloratom for only saying hello and feels okay keeping her vote on Aloratom for not contributing and didn’t wait before hearing from other people. This was early on though and she has now switched, but that stood out to me.

Votato

just seems like they are trying to lead the town. That may be a normal tell so it maybe nothing. I don’t know and sorry if I can’t explain it further, it’s just what I see.

And after what you posted I feel even more okay voting for you. You only stated that my catch up post seemed scummy after Votato stated it was. I understand that people point out things that you may miss, but if that was something that immediately stood out to you you would have lead with it imo especially given the fact that I have no clue about catchups and whatnot.

[ItalianoVD]

That should say “inclined” not “inquired”

[ItalianoVD]

What is AI?

Okay thank you for the information on quick lynching.

It appears we disagree on the town/scum tells and the reasons but that’s alright.

You are right, just because they didn’t do anything scummy thus far

doesn’t

mean they’re town, but overall nothing stands out to me. But I will go back over again and see if I missed anything that does.

[ItalianoVD]

Looking back at Italiano's catch up posts, I

also

have to say that it wasn't very good. They

didn't seem that scummy at first glance

, but after paying more and more attention to them it is a pretty good scumtell.

I’ve bolded what I think weakens your argument. You said “also” which means it wasn’t your original thought and it didn’t stand out to you

until

Votato pointed it out. You said it didn’t seem scummy at first glance which again means it didn’t stand out to you. If it was truly scummy that would have been what you came in saying, like Votato did. But you didn’t. You highlighted my question to NK15 of why he unvoted you. If it was as scummy as you are saying now, you would have highlighted it from the start. It just seems a bit inconsistent and wishy washy. You have the same type of inconsistency with Horuma. You had her town (in post #213 when you updated your reads) for asking questions and pressuring people and then voted for her (in post #298) for asking questions and pressuring people.

I think you are scum. Town doesn’t act like you are acting. Town are inconsistent, but unless “new” information comes forward they usually don’t do 180s on people, which you have done and I’m not sure if you’d have any of that information on Day 1.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay thank you Votato. That makes sense.

[ItalianoVD]

Also could you tell me what you meant when you said

“did not like that catch up. this slot has not gotten any townier”

The first part I get, I don’t get the second part.

[ItalianoVD]

Fair enough.

[ItalianoVD]

Do we vote for slots or for people? That doesn’t really make sense to me. Why even have a differentiation amongst characters if we are just filling slots?

[ItalianoVD]

i scum read beansi, your predecessor. i still think you're scum now.

Okay why?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay so I have one vote on me because Beansi had one on her? Well 2 now because you voted for me.

[ItalianoVD]

@ItalianoVD, I'm not really sure why you're suspecting me. I put a pressure vote on someone who had posted but not contributed, and left it there when they didn't start contributing. That being said, I get your reason for suspecting votato even less, so...

Snowblaze, it just seemed weird to me that you wouldn't vote for pii until you heard from others. At that point however, at least 3 people were suspecting him. So I didn't want to read too much into so I let it go because I don't know how you play and maybe waiting is normal for you. But then you voted for Aloratom without waiting for others to come in as you said you'd do for pii. I figured it was the same thing. I don't know how Aloratom plays, so some of you may have picked up on something I just don't see. However, your read an interaction with Pii on page 12 from posts 295-299 has me thinking that you are more town than scum. You caught pii

Elaborate on why votato is suspicious, please.

To me it just seems like he was leading. His catch up post where he is asking everyone questions just seemed like he was trying to lead them in the direction he wanted. Almost like forming narratives with his questions to lead the town into thinking a certain way. Again if that's his thing then it can be disregarded, but that's all I saw and it just seemed planned to me. With that said however, this jumped out at me when reading back over the posts 196 #52, when he analyzes NK15's moves on pii. It makes a lot of sense and I'd be willing to begin leaning town on votato because of it and make me look closer at NK15.

Also, not sure why you're town reading people purely for not doing anything suspicious. It makes more sense to have these people as null unless they've been actually acting towny. Which of the people on your list of non-suspicious people would you say have been actively towny as opposed to not scummy?

I see, so it'd be better to null read those I said were town? Got it.

[ItalianoVD]

Egix96, gobbledygook and Aloratom posts seem fun, well thought out, witty, and very loose. It's just a feeling though, so it could be wrong. But I feel scum would be more constrained, serious, and to the point.

Homura was less fun and loose as the others, but she seems very calm and collected and was asking questions and pressuring everyone. I don't think scum wants to interact with everyone. They usually want to pick one or two people and kind of stay there. She had no problem doing so and didn't seem to care about.

They just all feel town to me. I wish there was something more to point, but there just isn't.

[ItalianoVD]

I would be interested if you could show me what you saw as towny from NK, because I'm not really seeing it.

NK15 seemed confident and his read on pii was something that I've seen before in games I've played outside the forums and I'm sure it happens here too, that's why I was like, "wow this guy is good, he caught him". And it seemed like an obvious read that Homura caught onto as well. But now I see after reading votato's catchup post again I'm starting to think that confidence may be unwarranted, especially on Day 1.

[ItalianoVD]

She had no problem doing so and didn't seem to care about.

...what other people thought about her. It's a bold play for scum, so I figured she is more than likely town.

[ItalianoVD]

Homura's vote is not inconsistency.

If you had bothered to read my thing

, I liked that they were asking questions and pressuring people, but I didn't like that they weren't contributing any original ideas, so I voted them to pressure then to at least give reads. That's not inconsistency, and just because I voted someone doesn't mean I think they're scum. This isn't a 180.

Ha that's what I've been doing. Why would I only not read your posts? Had Homura been null, as I understand now, then it wouldn't have been as bad to vote her to pressure her, but you had her read as a town for doing the same thing that you now want to pressure her for doing. That doesn't make sense to me. Your reasoning and vote is in fact a 180, just going by the evidence. If I scumread someone, why would I not vote for them, unless they do something weird or different from what I scumread them for. On the flipside, if I townread someone, why would I vote for them, unless they do something weird or different from what I townread them for?

Also, just because something doesn't look scummy at first glance doesn't make it any less scummy.

You're right. That's true. You still haven't answered why you didn't mention it from the start and only after votato did. Or maybe I missed it, sorry. Did it slip your mind or were you just not paying attention? It happens and it's not a huge issue, but you keep trying to school me on the mechanics instead of answering the question. I appreciate it, but it just seems like deflection to me.

In fact, it makes it more scummy since scum are more likely to make posts which don't look obvscum but still somewhat are.

Unless it's made by town. I think town, not scum are the ones that don't actually care about looking scummy because they have nothing to hide. I don't know the meta, maybe that's not how it is here, but generally I'd say that's how it is.

[ItalianoVD]

The read on Aloratom was not stronger at that time,

but at that time no one seemed to want to vote them

; while Aloratom was both suspect AND a potential partner for the other scumread.

I assume by the bolded you mean pii correct? And if so, you were so sure, why didn't you make more of a case to everyone else. I saw the quicklynch concept get thrown out from you and I was later told that it's not a good idea to do that on day 1 because you won't gather any information on possible partners, but why didn't you ask more people there thoughts on pii? As confident as you seemed to me it wouldn't have been a hard thing to really make a good case for it and get people to follow you. Instead you just let the wagon die and move onto someone else? Would you be willing to move back onto pii or you just kind of let that ship sail?

So according to 249you suspected and voted for Aloratom for telling Beansi that her read on him was not developed organically and your reason was

"this post looks like it is trying to push the reader into the idea that not developing that read on first sight is bad, without stating anything non-obvious."

That seems very complex, to me I saw it very simple. A conversation between Aloratom and Beansi. Beansi had been favorable towards Aloratom for most of the day and even asked why he had was getting votes, then out of the blue Beans votes for him, which is what caused Aloratom to respond with 174.

I don't know, you're reasoning seems a little too contrived and intricate. I think it's way more simple than that, but I could be wrong. Does Aloratom have history of playing the way he's playing or do you see something that stands out to you? And if so, I assume others can vouch for it?

[ItalianoVD]

Question for votato? Who is more scummy to you? Myself or NK15? And why?

[ItalianoVD]

Maybe I’m reading everything wrong which I probably am, but can you clear this up for me?

Post 213 you townread Homura because of her interaction with you regarding NK15 and because of how she asked questions and pressured people. Do you deny this? I am not making this up.

Then Post 298 you mention, in response to Snowblaze, how you didn’t suspect gobble anymore, but that NK15 was your top suspect and then you vote Homura with this quote:

“are you going to be coming forth with your own ideas, or are you just going to lurk/be on the sidelines asking occasional questions? What are your reads on everyone? Who do you think is scummy?”

Do you deny this? I am not making this up.

So it appears from that I am in fact NOT trying to start a bandwagon or even control a narrative. It is there right in front of me. It’s all I have to go by.

So NK15 is/was your top suspect, but you voted for someone who you:
1) townread
2) just wanted to put pressure on as you said

I don’t know how it goes, but shouldn’t you put pressure on that person by asking them questions and not actually voting for them? It would have made more sense to me if you voted for Homura at this stage of the Day had you set it up that you were feeling scummy vibes from her from the beginning. But you didn’t. That is why it doesn’t make sense to me and why I am questioning what new information did you see that made you change your tune. From the above posts, your posts, there is no new information. And now you are voting for me because I am questioning why you changed so drastically which you have yet to actually answer, but are trying to twist it around claiming I am deliberately interpreting your vote as something else entirely. I don’t think I am.

My head hurts and if your goal was to wear me down, you achieved it. I understand that I truly don’t understand anything in this game. Oh but I’m keeping my vote on you because unlike you I am voting for my most suspicious person. There are other people in this game and the deadline is coming up, so reply if you want or don’t want. Someone else is gonna have to show me where I’m wrong about you because I don’t know if we’re getting anywhere. Both Aloratom and Egix feel that your town.

So Aloratom and Egix, why do you feel pii is town. I’m probably missing something or looking to far into something.

[ItalianoVD]

Furthermore, I explained that I moved by vote off of NK15 to other people because I didn't want to put them at L-1 and risk someone hammering days before the deadline.

So being at L1 is a bad thing? Okay.

But if you thought he was scummy then isn’t the point to get him lynched? You said you didn’t want to risk putting him at L-1 and possibly getting hammered. But isn’t that what you want since you thought he was scummy?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay, so that’s a strategy? Hmm, I wonder how many people think NK15 is scummy besides his voters.

[ItalianoVD]

Pii, if I vote for NK15 would you vote for him? I’m sure Votato could make the switch or maybe someone else. If the majority of the players are thinking NK15 is scum then at this point in the day it would make sense to agree would it not?

I don’t understand the partner thing, but have we gotten any closer to potentially finding an NK15 possible partner? The information you said we’d need before a lynch is solidified?

[ItalianoVD]

Or am I all wrong on this?

[ItalianoVD]

It does make sense. Thank you.

Well I don’t know what this will do, but it seems like the better move at this point. We can argue over perception and interpretation some more pii, but I think it may be a bit moot. I’m gonna vote for NK15. votato brought it up in his catchup post 196 #52, which I made mention of in post 349 and I know people will say I’m copying or sheeping or whatever it’s called, but like I said, I think it’s the better move right now.

VOTE: Not Known 15

[ItalianoVD]

I think you are capitalizing on my inexperience. I’d say the same for NK15. Instead of explaining why things are it’s just whatever to you and it makes me think you aren't that genuine. If it’s a scum move to tie up the vote count when you are ahead in the votes I didn’t know that. It can be seen as self-preservation, but I guess that’s not the case on here.

And why would you have a problem with me voting for someone you think is scummy?

Or is it some mechanic or rule I don’t know about like “just because we agree on scumminess doesn’t mean we’re both town or something.”

Well anyway I guess I’m pretty much gone huh, so when I am proven to be town, then what will you do? What’s your plan?

[ItalianoVD]

Well, given the lack of remaining time and someone I scum read being on L-1:

Intent to hammer

.

Did you ever let me know why you scumread me? I think I may have missed it. Am curious what your read on me is/was.

Aloratom. Have you scumread me since I came in or was it just because I replaced Beansi? And if so what was it that stood out to you?

I guess these will be my final thoughts. As I mentioned before, Aloratom, Egix, Gobbledygook, and Homura felt/feel like the most town to me by their posts and way they were moving through the game. At first NK15, who I figured was the most experienced seemed very spot on with his early assessment of Pii's opening post. Homura was also questioning pii about his "townie" first post. I mentioned that I had seen that before from wolves or scum trying to seem town.

But NK15's move off of pii and onto Aloratom had me confused. So I asked him why and he mentioned that Aloratom's scumminess was not more than pii, but that Aloratom was a suspect as well as a potential partner for scumread, who I am assuming was pii. He also said how at the time no one wanted to vote for pii. So I asked/stated that shouldn't it be up to him to get people to see his point and why it would make sense to vote pii, who he thought was the most scummy at the time? He hasn't answered me yet.

I originally was suspicious of Snowblaze and votato. Snowblaze for early day movement on Aloratom and lack of movement onto pii and votato for seemingly leading the village or perhaps controlling narratives. I voted for pii for reasons stated above. So those were my three most suspicious. Aloratom, Egix, Gobbledygook, Homura were my five town reads (or as I understand now, my null reads that leaned town).

votato didn't like my catchup post. Also said he still scumreads the slot I replaced. I didn't understand what that meant, but kudos to him, he did explain to me what it meant so thanks for that. However, he hasn't told me why he still scumreads the slot yet, just that he does, unless I missed it. Was involved more immediately after replacing Atarashi Hajimari, but it seems like he's checked out. Also doesn't like me voting for his scumread, which confuses the heck out of me.

Now onto my switch...

The reason I switched from pii and onto NK15 is because I remembered that town/villagers

can

sometimes play all over the place and seem scummy, but in the end they end up town/villager. Also Aloratom and Egix (two who I feel are town) both mentioned they feel pii is town and NK15 is/was scummy. So I assumed I was just reading too far into pii's actions.

So I switched over to NK15 for a number of reasons. One reason was what votato pointed out in his catchup post re NK15. Stating how NK15 was picking up on the little things that otherwise wouldn't be picked up on by town, especially on Day 1 and mentioned how NK15 could be so confident so early. Another reason was his change from Pii (who was his strongest scumread) onto Aloratom (who wasn't as strong of a scumread which he said, but could potentially be a partner). I'll have to get well versed in that because I don't know the strategy behind it.

And then the reasoning behind the change to Aloratom, re his interaction with Beansi, seemed contrived and very intricate tying back into votato's "picking up on the little things" read. Another reason I switched was to preserve myself being the one who lead the votes at 3-2. Switching onto NK15, a person I had begun suspecting and tying up the score made sense to me. I'm not gonna just go down if I know I'm innocent.

Now I see according to votato and NK15 that it is a scumtell. If I could do it again, I'd probably do it the same way because it just as easy could be a towntell imo. This is why I mentioned that I thought they were taking an opportunity to capitalize on my inexperience. I wasn't saying it to say "That's not fair" as NK15 so eloquently put. but more of a highlight to the other townies who might be suspecting one of them or both of them. If I do get lynched and when it proves that I am town I'd be suspicious of at least one of them if not both.

Well that's all I got. I hope I addressed everything. Any questions ask away; I'm an open book.

[ItalianoVD]

1. You’ve been over-explaining your votes in a way that feels like you’re trying too hard to justify them.

Yeah, this is how I'm used to playing, you'll see as I play more games. It's what I do. I consider votes to be extremely valuable and for town, it's the greatest tool/weapon. I don't want to just throw it around without explaining why even if I have to do it multiple times.

2. I really don’t like your reasoning for voting NK15 at the time you did it: “I know this is going to make me look bad but I’m doing it anyway”.

Fair enough. No use trying to change your mind then eh?

3. Your explanation after for why NK15 is suspicious included switching from their top scum read to someone they find less suspicious... exactly what you did, with the addition that an NK/pi scum team is extremely unlikely given early day one.

Ehhh, sure you can frame it that way if you want, but I think the subtle difference is: when NK15 changed to Aloratom, he still thought pii was scummier. I don't think pii is scummier than NK15 at this point, otherwise I would have never changed my vote.

But I did try to get traction on that wagon though. That's why I asked pii if he'd vote for NK if the traction was there. I put NK at 3, tied with me. I figured if NK was scum, it'd put pressure on his teammate to protect him and vote for me. But he voted for me instead, which is not all that bad because if some of the other people who still feel NK is scum vote for him and tie it back up, then we can see who chooses to hammer me and not vote for him and look at that person or persons as his potential partner. This is with the idea that he is scum though. Now if he is just vanilla townie and he agrees we can still tie up the votes at 4 and then whoever hammers either of us would jump to the forefront of mafiascum and should be lynched Day 2. I'm not sure how it would work if he has a town power role though, so someone would have to explain that to me. Either way a tied score I think is in the best interest of the town. I don't mind dying if it's gonna help uncover some clue to who's who. I mean it's only a theory, but I don't know, what do you guys think? I'm pretty much dead anyway so you might as well indulge me.

Also, you might want to claim your role so we don’t end up lynching a PR.

Yeah, I'm at L-1. So how exactly do I do it? Just say it? I'm town?

I'm town.

[ItalianoVD]

Sure. You were gonna do it anyway. See you on the flipside.

[ItalianoVD]

Wow, very interesting game. Had no idea Aloratom was scum. This game is very, very technical. Unlike the normal wolf games I’ve played, you have to be extra sharp. I look forward to playing more games. Thanks for running it Aaron Frost. Very exciting.

I have so many questions though.