Newbie 2011 - Game Over

[Micc]

Votecount 1.08

SleeperSoul (3) -

Apogee, Battle Mage, votato

GeneralWu (2) -

gobbledygook, AGar

midwaybear (2) -

Freddiethelady, SleeperSoul

votato (1) -

midwaybear

Not Voting (1) -

GeneralWu

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to Eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-06-21 22:00:00).

[midwaybear]

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

[votato]

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

YOU DONT HAVE ANY SCUMREADS!!!!!!!
and you still havent explained any of your reads at all

[Freddiethelady]

BM and Agar in your posts 169 168 id like to ask you both what are the chances that sleeper is making rookie mistakes in your opinion? his continuous references to his gut-feelsies is bad town behavior, and equally bad as a scum behavior. from what i gather, i assume that a newbie scum would probably be far more hesitant to take a stance on issues since he has to fake his town role, where as a town newbie might appear flaky because of his eagerness to participate. my read on him leans town right now. i think he is an easy target right now because he is active in the game...it feels a bit scummy to shade him for that Agar and BM imo.

As for BM this is the only thing that feels scummy to me about you in this moment. i haven't been able to get a read on the agar except that if its true that he is an aggressive player, then i probably won't interact with him well but i will make an effort to be cordial. im trying to learn still and the aggressive people i experienced the last game i played were downright miserable resulting in suspensions. i really hope it won't be a repeat of that!

I don't know if you saw but I replaced in to that game -

huge fan of your work

! And no thanks to me ultimately lynching your successor, you have a 100% winrate now.

To be honest, I play newbie games to avoid some of the more aggressive behaviour, so don't expect any of that here! People tend to be a lot nicer.

On reflection I'm not sure I understand your question above. He's been active, so you're right, that goes in his favour. I think his behaviour is far more likely to be scum than town, although it's possible he's town. The things I struggle to square are the inconsistencies and where what he is saying is just objectively and clearly not true. It's possible for town to do anything, and I'm not gonna slam the guy for making mistakes, whatever his alignment. I generally think having varied and changing opinions is a towntell, but there needs to be some basis for it (it can just be gut, but then you have to be honest about that). in this case he can't keep his story straight and has been exaggerating his reads...to achieve what? Nothing protown that I can see. In a world where AGar is town, I can easily imagine newbie-scum being very excited at us going at it, and trying to fuel it from the sidelines and get one of us lynched, which is basically how I read Sleeper's play. I may be wrong, of course.

midway, tell me more about why you read sleeper as town.

Why did you ask this question, when the two preceding posts were from different people asking this exact question? Did you think Midway would ignore them, but answer you?

nope, just reminding him that it wasn't answered and i had forgotten that i asked it, since it went unanswered.

re italics above: i thought my predecessor did a class job cleaning up my mess. you took over Fish didn't you? boy he was a piece of work. anyways, ill sign autographs after the game...always a pleasure to talk to a fan!

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm reading in chronological order, and this pinged me.

Freddie questioning Midway about his Sleeper read, then claiming shortly afterwards he knew nothing about it, and really labouring the point that he'll go back and check this. Odd.

midway, tell me more about why you read sleeper as town.

It looks like you're townreading Sleeper by this post - why are you pushing on midway's townread of him, then?

midway's townread of sleeper? humm i must have missed that. let me get back to you on that....

midway, it seems that a lot of people pointing out that you're posts are rather limp...then you say this. it doesn't seem like you're trying to prove anyone wrong. also, apparently you already have been defending him. care to comment? (still going to look into this @agar.)

However, I have to say based on meta, Freddie is looking town to me right now.

he doesn't really explain himself. is it not a good idea to follow up on unanswered questions?

i don't really know why I SR you apogee. I noticed that you are playing different from 2003, but then I realized you were playing mostly the same? I'm not really sure. I think you are probably town herem yet not as strong as GWU.

this isn't a whole lot of context. again, midway, you're looking super sus to me because of posts like this: no context, no explanation, and nothing that pushes the game forward. im beginning to feel like a broken record.

[Freddiethelady]

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

you've said multiple times that you town read me. start by telling us where that changed, then you can tell us about your reads. cause everyone has been asking now...

you're looking super scummy with your lack of context and multiple votes.

[midwaybear]

this isn't a whole lot of context. again, midway, you're looking super sus to me because of posts like this: no context, no explanation, and nothing that pushes the game forward. im beginning to feel like a broken record.

False. Read my iso.

you've said multiple times that you town read me.

False. I never townread you.

1 scum caught. 1 to go.
LAL

[votato]

why are you like this midway. give your reasons or youre gonna wind up lynched again. between you and BM this is getting kinda frustrating

[GeneralWu]

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

Which posts do you like better?

[Freddiethelady]

this isn't a whole lot of context. again, midway, you're looking super sus to me because of posts like this: no context, no explanation, and nothing that pushes the game forward. im beginning to feel like a broken record.

False. Read my iso.

you've said multiple times that you town read me.

False. I never townread you.

1 scum caught. 1 to go.
LAL

i apologize, you're right. you never town-read me. but you haven't really scum-read me either (i pinned one quote below which shows me in as

a passive thought

). as a matter of fact, you've not really read anyone. you've made statements but not justifications which is just noise in this game.

do I put sleeper soul at L-1 here? I'm really conflicted, and I would feel especially bad if he was town because he's new.

you vote the people you think are behaving in a scummy way! you started out by defending sleeper, then questioning him. now you're voting me? essentially, you're NOT voting the behavior you find questionable because you feel bad? but voting twice in a row for people without justification? i voted you in RVS so i can't vote again, but i would be voting you for that alone.

UNVOTE: votato some of his early posts were a bit defensive, but I like this better
VOTE: freddie
she doesn't seem to have any scumreads at all which is

neither do you! you haven't said anything - yet you're voting me because "she doesn't seem to have an scumreads at all which is ". this is a very bad town move, if you're in fact town.

am i supposed to convince you that you are scum
yeah, you might be town though. Having doubts on sleeper even though I defended him, so I might go votato-sleeper for my solve. But we probably shouldn't be speculating teams yet
GG and GWu I am decently confident in being town. I never scumread lurkers so yeah.
pedit: oops maybe

what happened to your votato-sleeper solve? i am pinning this to prove more inconsistencies.

town!midway would enlighten everyone with his insight for the betterment and health of the town. scum!midway wouldn't want to commit to anything because of no real justification for his behavior. it looks like the latter.

[Apogee]

town!midway would enlighten everyone with his insight for the betterment and health of the town. scum!midway wouldn't want to commit to anything because of no real justification for his behavior. it looks like the latter.

Uh have you ever played with town!Midway before

I think it took him over a week to make a real case.

But yeah midway you are kind of lacking in the content department here like at all.

[SleeperSoul]

Hey guys.

I'm just posting to let you know I'm keeping an eye on BM's ISO for when he finishes catching up.

I did skim the most recent posts here. I might reply with something short if you scream at me really loud. Other than that I'm going to be prodging and waiting for BM's catch up. I'll start posting content again when he's finished.

[Freddiethelady]

town!midway would enlighten everyone with his insight for the betterment and health of the town. scum!midway wouldn't want to commit to anything because of no real justification for his behavior. it looks like the latter.

Uh have you ever played with town!Midway before

I think it took him over a week to make a real case.

But yeah midway you are kind of lacking in the content department here like at all.

My first game ever played, he was scum. But I subbed in day two and hardly interacted with him or anyone else. So yes, but my experience with him wasn’t helpful to me now. Thanks for pointing that out

[Battle Mage]

Hey guys.

I'm just posting to let you know I'm keeping an eye on BM's ISO for when he finishes catching up.

I did skim the most recent posts here. I might reply with something short if you scream at me really loud. Other than that I'm going to be prodging and waiting for BM's catch up. I'll start posting content again when he's finished.

...why?

[Battle Mage]

can we just agree to lynch Gobbledygook today? He is posting elsewhere, avoiding this game, looks like scum hiding to me. Read his ISO, it's so poor.

[Battle Mage]

arent all scum equally motivated to hunt down town PRs?

no?

eh? i HATE to agree with votato but...

[Battle Mage]

Votato while you are hear explain the gobbles/freddy w/w equity?

don't understand what you're saying here, please explain.

Also why were you "intentionally serving as bait for scum to jump on"?

It's a strategy I adopted from IRL play. My friends all know I don't like playing as scum, and I'm too easy to read as scum. So I play scummy in the beginning to try to get scum on my side and then turn on them. I was always confident in my ability to be read as innocent. This was in an Avalon setup where scum didn't know who one of their members was.

I was trying to do some 5D plays, but I realize I'm probably not good/readable enough to do it here.

I don't know what Avalon is so im just shooting from the hip here but do you think is it wise to use strategies from a different game (among friends who know you well) here? or is this your attempt at covering up some bad behaviors up. to make reference to my own metric, you're sounding less eager and more suspicious. if its a good strategy to use yourself 'scum bait' then you're more strategic than i originally thought, in which case, you're somewhat erratic behavior looks more suspicious then newbie behavior

Yes, I think.

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

who are you talking to?

you.

the reason i think it would be those people is that i think the coaching would have to come from someone experienced. for example, i dont think i ever told freddie that scum would be hesitant to take a firm stance, but i think gobbles or apogee might give such advice. or maybe it was me. in any case in both prior games it was immediately obvious to me that freddie was town, but in this game im having trouble, which probably just means that freddie is learning (good), but still gives me the heebiee jeebiees (sp?) (bad).

avalon is a mafia variant that you can buy in stores and has specific role cards etc. its essentially the same, but a bit different.

im just going to risk naming the other players for clarification.

well for one thing, votato, you definitely told me about how scum want to appear. i also learned from reading the mafia thread, that lilith was telling feathers stuff like don't take too strong a stance (on d1), and when you do be sure you sound objective and thoughtful. so applying the other things i've learned like reading between the lines, it is likely a reasonable deduction to make.

another thing, you said my scum partners might be {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul} in that order. why did you chose those four? i've yet to hear you scum read any of them. thats super suspicious in my mind. also, gobbles has barely appeared (and been prodded at least once if not twice). which is relevant to my pondering of the question how can you be sure that he would be my likely scumpartner? you haven't seen his style unless you know him from somewhere else and maybe he's a bad player. if he's a bad player and he's coaching me in the scum thread then that would disprove your assumption that he could coach me, immediately. so it tells me you're taking a shot in the dark at assuming gobbles is a good enough player to coach me which is a big assumption to make. i expect more from you votato.

I enjoyed reading this, and encourage others to do so. It would be scummy, except it's Freddie.

Obviously all scum wants to find town PRs. But scum PRs are more excited/preoccupied about finding targets because they will be doing the targeting.

Actually, it doesn't really matter who is the scum PR when it comes to night actions. Suppose you were a mafia goon and your partner were a mafia rolecop. You can tell your partner "can you rolecop [player]" and that would still allow you to target the person in question.

However, it is a bit less likely for scum to bus their PR, because that will make it more likely for the scum PR to be lynched, tracked, jailed, etc.

Also in my experience it's actually very difficult to distinguish mafia goons from mafia PRs and purposely go for the mafia PRs. The best thing to do is to try and find scum (regardless of whether it's a goon or a PR) rather than to hunt for scum PRs.

Or if you have some of the shitty mafia partners I've had, you will be a mafia PR, and some goon will choose your target for you, without even letting you know.

[Battle Mage]

I missed this earlier.

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

Are you saying you think Freddie could be scum PR? I tend to agree. I keep getting the feeling she's looking for town PRs.

the whole conversation about scum PRs got started with this misunderstanding. votato said he thinks i learned from scum PT not PR, right?

Yes, and the way Sleeper pounced on this misunderstanding to put heat on you doesn't look great now, does it?

This post is another great example of why I townlean GeneralWu. He is actually analysing the game, not looking to stitch anybody up, trying to be objective and giving opinions but with a balanced mindset. I don't think scum often bother to do this sort of thing - if they are going to effort of making a case, they will want to conclude someone is scum to justify a vote, or it isn't really worth it.

Yeah, I just realized that votato was talking about the "private thread".

At this point I feel pretty reluctant to share my thoughts, because it seems everything I do is wrong.

I think I need to hard claim noob here. If at any point I gave the impression that I was good at this game, that was my mistake.

I'll try to keep helping town, but expect me to mess up. I know this is a bad defense but what can I do?

I'm not sure why you'd give up here as town? Nothing bad has happened? If you're town, worst case scenario is you get lynched, which isn't the end of the world, although you weren't there yet. This all feels a bit like giving up prematurely.

Is Gobbledygook your partner? if so, i could understand you feeling defeated here.

[Battle Mage]

hmm im leaning towards the scum PT being more likely, but we will see. if you are scum, your partner is probably (in decreasing order) {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul}. gobbles would be the most likely

who are you talking to?

you.

the reason i think it would be those people is that i think the coaching would have to come from someone experienced. for example, i dont think i ever told freddie that scum would be hesitant to take a firm stance, but i think gobbles or apogee might give such advice. or maybe it was me. in any case in both prior games it was immediately obvious to me that freddie was town, but in this game im having trouble, which probably just means that freddie is learning (good), but still gives me the heebiee jeebiees (sp?) (bad).

avalon is a mafia variant that you can buy in stores and has specific role cards etc. its essentially the same, but a bit different.

im just going to risk naming the other players for clarification.

well for one thing, votato, you definitely told me about how scum want to appear. i also learned from reading the mafia thread, that lilith was telling feathers stuff like don't take too strong a stance (on d1), and when you do be sure you sound objective and thoughtful. so applying the other things i've learned like reading between the lines, it is likely a reasonable deduction to make.

another thing, you said my scum partners might be {gobbles, apogee, GWu, sleepersoul} in that order. why did you chose those four? i've yet to hear you scum read any of them. thats super suspicious in my mind. also, gobbles has barely appeared (and been prodded at least once if not twice). which is relevant to my pondering of the question how can you be sure that he would be my likely scumpartner? you haven't seen his style unless you know him from somewhere else and maybe he's a bad player. if he's a bad player and he's coaching me in the scum thread then that would disprove your assumption that he could coach me, immediately. so it tells me you're taking a shot in the dark at assuming gobbles is a good enough player to coach me which is a big assumption to make. i expect more from you votato.

ive played quite a few games with gobbles and gobbles is a good player. gobbles lurking is unrelated to skill, and NAI. gobbles is good so could be coaching you. i know that, so can draw the comparison. but yeah pre-flip associatives are bad so its unlikely that you are both scum. why pick out gobbles from that list to attack me for?

Prove Gobbles lurking is NAI for me.

Right now my read on BM isn't as strong as when I posted my list. I'll reread his iso and get back to you.

Also, I think "awkwardly honest" is a pretty good description of my personality.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder eh?

[Battle Mage]

Midway's case for Sleeper-town is weak, but it's something. Points for Midway?

Freddie is looking more town than votato right now, coming off the stronger in their exchanges (I'm still on Page 10)...

one more time for clarity: the people i picked as potential scumpartners for freddie are the people who i feel could be possible coaches in scum PT. i dont particularly scumread freddie. i just wanted to share a shower thought to give the town some info/context. and its a thought that in certain contexts could indicate that freddie is scum. alternatively, if freddie does flip scum it narrows the potential partner list significantly.

you don't think I'd be a good scumcoach? It's been over 10 years since I've lost a game, or even been lynched, as scum.

[midwaybear]

gobbles is never scum here
it's a bad example for newbies to lurk as scum, and this situation is sorta like enomis in 2003

[Battle Mage]

After deleting my initial cold hard gut read on BM from my mind, I looked at his iso and I actually liked his pressure on votato. It would be helpful if BM was active right now for me to get a better read, but right now it's leaning town.


I don't mean to be rude, but at what point do we seriously consider GG as a policy lynch for inactivity?

I kind of want to switch my vote to them, but I guess I'll just UNVOTE: Battle Mage for now.

You're....leaning town on me!?

Although it's a good point about GG, and you got there before I did, so kudos. If you're town, you're turning a corner!

I guess I might as well VOTE: GG

I like this, as I don't think you would do this at that point if GG was your partner. So a GG scumflip would make you probably town.

My biggest scum reads right now are you votato and midway, but right now I'm more focused on figuring out who I should be sheeping.

I'll tell you what, if you sheep me, I won't lynch you today.

you should be voting for whomever you think is the scummiest, and try to convince others

The way you're doing this coaching gives me the creeps, not good vibes.

[Battle Mage]

gobbles is never scum here
it's a bad example for newbies to lurk as scum, and this situation is sorta like enomis in 2003

if he's town, i don't see him struggling to engage as much as he has. It's a bad example for newbies regardless, so I don't buy that as an argument for him being town. The Mod should probably look at it, as his posts have been pretty much all prod-dodges right?

[Battle Mage]

am i supposed to convince you that you are scum
yeah, you might be town though. Having doubts on sleeper even though I defended him, so I might go votato-sleeper for my solve. But we probably shouldn't be speculating teams yet
GG and GWu I am decently confident in being town. I never scumread lurkers so yeah.
pedit: oops maybe

If you never scumread lurkers, you must not win many games? and that's coming from me of all people...and I never win as town!

[midwaybear]

ok

[Battle Mage]

Preferred Lynch:

gobbledygook
Sleepersoul
votato
Apogee
midwaybear
AGar
GeneralWu
Freddiethelady