Open 782: Triad Conspiracy (Finish!)

[Auro]

Everything is WIFOM

Everything is WIFOM the way mafiascum thinks WIFOM works.

I kind of feel that this is all that needs to be said. Also, people need to actually try to understand this tell. I can't even begin to describe how many times I've seen someone debating *possibilities* and then being called scummy for 'WIFOM' Or, even worse, someone saying what they believe happened (which is the definition of *not* wifom) and then being called scummy for...yep, WIFOM.

I challenge you to tell me the action that scum might not have done 'WIFOM' on

Yeah...

Y'see, the danger of WIFOM is that it messes with town's heads and makes them doubt reads. But, generally speaking, very few people ever mention it in a scummy manner. I mean, I *use* WIFOM as scum, but you don't ever see me "using" it. Usually my goal is just to make town have to consider things over and over toill their reads are all muddy and useless - that's how scum use WIFOM. Sayingg that you think Player A lied while thinking he would look town for the lie - that's called a conclusion, not WIFOM.

Figure this out, people.

[gobbledygook]

I think Drew is town

Why? If it’s for his post towards Gal, I think that’s a terrible post to townread Drew off.

[Auro]

Oh cool, the Turkey is T O W N

[superbowl9]

Everything is WIFOM

Everything is WIFOM the way mafiascum thinks WIFOM works.

I kind of feel that this is all that needs to be said. Also, people need to actually try to understand this tell. I can't even begin to describe how many times I've seen someone debating *possibilities* and then being called scummy for 'WIFOM' Or, even worse, someone saying what they believe happened (which is the definition of *not* wifom) and then being called scummy for...yep, WIFOM.

I challenge you to tell me the action that scum might not have done 'WIFOM' on

Yeah...

Y'see, the danger of WIFOM is that it messes with town's heads and makes them doubt reads. But, generally speaking, very few people ever mention it in a scummy manner. I mean, I *use* WIFOM as scum, but you don't ever see me "using" it. Usually my goal is just to make town have to consider things over and over toill their reads are all muddy and useless - that's how scum use WIFOM. Sayingg that you think Player A lied while thinking he would look town for the lie - that's called a conclusion, not WIFOM.

Figure this out, people.

This is true, everything is WIFOM. You will see in the framework below that every action is necessarily within some WIFOM framework, since lvl 0 is

always

not making use of the framework - that's just how WIFOM works. It's just not useful to make a WIFOM *argument* unless you have good reason to believe someone is carrying out a WIFOM action.

In this example:
Lvl 0: Scum acts normally
Lvl 1: Scum knows that argumentation can be seen as town, so argues in an attempt to seem town
Lvl 2: Scum knows that if they argue to seem town, someone will say "you are only arguing to seem town, so you're scum!" Thus scum does not argue, and may even try to use this counter on arguing townies

The argument here is that scum is operating on Lvl 1. However I could just as easily argue that scum is operating on lvl 0 or lvl 2 - making your argument scummy! Etc etc.... So how do we escape the WIFOM? You have to read which "level" the scum is reasonably operating at.

The natural baseline is that all players are operating at lvl 0, playing naturally. If you argue that someone is operating outside this framework - which you have - you have to provide evidence that shows they're operating at that level rather than any other, *especially* the natural baseline (occam's razor). Otherwise, simply pointing out that scum *could* be operating at whichever level which suits your argument with no evidence is simply not helpful and a WIFOM argument.

Your own post supports what I'm saying here, albeit in a way which doesn't directly differentiate (sweet alliteration baby) between a WIFOM action and a WIFOM argument. Scum confusing people by making them go over and over their reads would be a

WIFOM argument

. Scum trying to gain an advantage by abusing meta would be a

WIFOM action

. This is what the *use* but not "use" part of your quote is trying to say.

Your quote defends WIFOM arguments, but this would be incorrect. WIFOM arguments can be right or wrong, motivated by pure or scummy intentions. What makes them correct or incorrect is not that they're WIFOM, but the evidence you use to back the args. Just like any other argument in this game.

Thank you for attending my no one understands WIFOM Ted Talk

[Auro]

The argument here is that scum is operating on Lvl 1. However I could just as easily argue that scum is operating on lvl 0 or lvl 2 - making your argument scummy! Etc etc.... So how do we escape the WIFOM? You have to read which "level" the scum is reasonably operating at.

And my read is that you're operating at level 1.

Reading you as playing on level 1 is not scummy because you could be operating on level 0 or level 2, my dear owl

I'm a lvl 100.5 player and thus unpredictable and unreadable myself, ftr. WIFOM doesn't apply to me!

[superbowl9]

LMAO I really enjoy you using my example of an incorrect WIFOM train of thought as an accusation - maybe I'm just not up to the snuff of lvl 100 yet tho

Reading me as lvl 1 is NAI, saying it's not a WIFOM argument would be misleading and incorrect.

I *could* have turned this on you and say the fact that you're using WIFOM argumentation, which your own quote says is how scum use WIFOM, is scummy, but I believe that just misunderstand WIFOM, because that's the easiest solution that makes the most sense. That's the difference between making an argument just because you think it can be made vs. actually sorting.

[superbowl9]

If you actually wanted to sort me, you might have asked "Who started your hood argument?" If the answer is me, then you know I'm starting arguments, giving you reason to suspect I might be on level 1.

[Auro]

You implied that your potential countering that you're even leveled operating (this is why I chose a decimal for my own level btw, otherwise it's even odd parity) can make an argument that you're operating on level 1 scummy, and I have correctly noted that as an accusation.

It's a read. I think you believe argumentation is towny, and I think that as a result you would operate on level 1 play. Thus, I conclude that your excessive argumentation is actually scum indicative and not NAI. As my quote says... It's a conclusion! One of the distinct possibilities which I feel is likelier. It is you who does not understand WIFOM, my friend.

[Auro]

If you actually wanted to sort me, you might have asked "Who started your hood argument?" If the answer is me, then you know I'm starting arguments, giving you reason to suspect I might be on level 1.

Isis accused you of acting intentionally scummy, and then you got paranoid of the way she was treating you - right?

My read is that Tommy Two Times is town town, and you and Isis are scum in the hood - since the principle argument is between you two, it matters not who started it.

[Morning Tweet]

Are you still arguing with Isis in your hood?

I do think you'd stage an argument with your buddy in the hood if you believed that people would townread arguments and scumread "buddying"

We're on page 20 - she just called me soup bowl

Also this is WIFOM

has she called you "fruit bowl" yet?

[superbowl9]

You implied that your potential countering that you're even leveled operating (this is why I chose a decimal for my own level btw, otherwise it's even odd parity) can make an argument that you're operating on level 1 scummy, and I have correctly noted that as an accusation.

You would be correct in noting that it's a potential accusation. However if you read my post you would know exactly why I think it's an extremely weak accusation - if I thought it was a good accusation why did I include it as an example of a bad WIFOM argument lol?

It's a read. I think you believe argumentation is towny, and I think that as a result you would operate on level 1 play. Thus, I conclude that your excessive argumentation is actually scum indicative and not NAI.

Yes, it is a read. No different from 127. To say that it's not a WIFOM argument is just inaccurate though. You literally said in your last post:

And my read is that you're operating at level 1.

You just said yourself that you believe I'm acting within lvl 1 in a WIFOM framework. That's the

definition

of a WIFOM argument. Idk why you believe that reads and conclusions must be completely separate from WIFOM. Your read is not a WIFOM action, that is correct. But if you read my post/understood WIFOM you would know that it's clearly a WIFOM argument.

Now that you (hopefully) understand why you have used a WIFOM argument, we can discuss exactly what can be so harmful about these types of arguments. If you see a post such as 127, you know that it's just a gut read that doesn't have any presented evidence behind it. When you make a WIFOM argument, however, it's very easy to act as though the WIFOM *is* your evidence, when in reality it's just a gut read. This is quite clear in your post:

Thus, I conclude that your excessive argumentation is actually scum indicative and not NAI

You have concluded that my argumentation is scum indicative. Why is my argumentation scum indicative? The

assumption

that I'm working from WIFOM lvl 1. You buried this assumption 1 level deeper into your argument to make it seem more concrete. Me pointing out that this is a WIFOM argument is simply me clarifying that there is no substance to this read.

[superbowl9]

Stop giving her ideas Morning Tweet

[gobbledygook]

Isis, Super Bowl, Tommy two times reads to me like the scum hood of Tommy’s accounts are correct. There’s no way they have 20 pages of content in the hood or that Isis and super bowl really used those first two points of attack on one another.

[Doctor Drew]

Turkey, spill the beans on your hood.

[gobbledygook]

Turkey, spill the beans on your hood.

What are you even asking here?

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[Doctor Drew]

Turkey, spill the beans on your hood.

What are you even asking here?

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Lol, no one knows what is going on there.

Barely any activity in main thread from you guys.

So, spill the beans.

[gobbledygook]

Turkey, spill the beans on your hood.

What are you even asking here?

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Lol, no one knows what is going on there.

Barely any activity in main thread from you guys.

So, spill the beans.

I told them we should troll all of you by posting in the neighborhood and not in the main thread. They obliged.

[gobbledygook]

Turkey, spill the beans on your hood.

What are you even asking here?

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Lol, no one knows what is going on there.

Barely any activity in main thread from you guys.

So, spill the beans.

I just like don’t know how this helps us either? Basically the game depends on the lone townie in the scumhood to be able to catch the scum, or at least properly relay information into the main thread. Do you think the information relayed into the main thread by the other hood has indicated they are town?

[Doctor Drew]

Turkey, spill the beans on your hood.

What are you even asking here?

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Lol, no one knows what is going on there.

Barely any activity in main thread from you guys.

So, spill the beans.

I just like don’t know how this helps us either? Basically the game depends on the lone townie in the scumhood to be able to catch the scum, or at least properly relay information into the main thread. Do you think the information relayed into the main thread by the other hood has indicated they are town?

I am not sure the info relayed by my own hood is town.

But, with a two week deadline I am trying to do my due dilligence before I self hammer and try to figure out the other hoods.

So, unless you are purposely hiding something, at least give us a temperature reading of your hood.

Oh, and also stop deflecting.

[gobbledygook]

Is there a difference in the resulting answer between “stop deflecting” and “give us a temperature reading of your hood” questions?

I am mildly townreading my hood mates. At this point in the game they are my strongest townreads, which says a lot about the other players in the game.

They have been engaging in discourse in the hood that has shown original thought and scumhunting, but not so much that is obviously townie or out of a scum’s potential range.

I also gave them an ultimatum that I would self vote in a few days.

[Morning Tweet]

Stop giving her ideas Morning Tweet

im sorry im sorry!!

I told them we should troll all of you by posting in the neighborhood and not in the main thread. They obliged.

for real? my first instinct is that's funny, my second is that could potentially be scummy since now they don't have to make content, but in the end i think scum actually might not agree to that since now they have no chance to seem townie and be the towniest of the 3 hoods. unless they're really confident they can pocket the townie

[Auro]

I also gave them an ultimatum that I would self vote in a few days

At this point I'm interested in who ISN'T offering up such ultimatums

Any sneak peek into your hood's content?

[Doctor Drew]

I also gave them an ultimatum that I would self vote in a few days

At this point I'm interested in who ISN'T offering up such ultimatums

Any sneak peek into your hood's content?

Watch out......Turkey is gonna vote you for asking.

Hmm, actually yes Turkey......vote Auro.

[Auro]

Turkey and I are secretly Masons

[gobbledygook]

I also gave them an ultimatum that I would self vote in a few days

At this point I'm interested in who ISN'T offering up such ultimatums

Any sneak peek into your hood's content?

Are you scared I’m scumreading you? :p