Mafia of Revelations ~ Game Over!


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Post Post #775 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:19 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

in other news, I don't hate the spirit of VP's post, given that 5 votes out of 17 players is statistically likely to contain scum. If he's town, I could totally see myself trying to figure things out that way. that being said I'm sticking with my initial read on him because I think it's a lot easier to fake reactions than to fake an initial attitude.

w/r/t players being inconsistent and therefore scum:
town players don't play optimally. if you say "oh, this person did a thing that is somewhat inconsistent with what they did earlier" with no context as a scumtell you're going to get a lot of false positives. what I'm saying is that unless an inconsistency shows a scum motivation, it doesn't really mean much. it's just making a process argument. it's like the Fallacy fallacy.
VP Baltar wrote:UT, can you tell me how your wallflower read of me is distinctly scummy from several other players in the game?

Also, how engaged do you feel in this game at this point post your larger post?
...you do understand that GC asked me specifically to look at the two things I posted about (you, Starbuck/Blair) in response to me saying "can someone give me some direction", right?

anyway, I don't know? I feel like you had more empty-calorie posting than others I looked at. I'll freely admit that basically everything before and most things after I made that big post reads as a big vortex of nonsense to me so I may be missing something. there's a lot of people in this game who post a lot of words but very little content. It's a bummer that I'm scumreading you because at least it isn't like pulling teeth to understand what you're SAYING.
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Post Post #776 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:20 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

OK UT is town.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
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Post Post #777 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:24 am

Post by VP Baltar »

In post 775, Untrod Tripod wrote:I'm sticking with my initial read on him because I think it's a lot easier to fake reactions than to fake an initial attitude.
That's an accurate statement. But, my vote on Auro predates my wagon and is certainly the scum read I feel most confident about. It's not too late to abandon this folly and get on an actual scum lynch.
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Post Post #778 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:45 am

Post by AGar »

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Auro

Just not buying the VPB wagon. More to say at 7 when I’m not confined to a tablet, and a lovely fuck all y’all for fucking 5+ pages exploding overnight.
Ski mask? Check! Sawed off? Check! Guilty conscience, fear of death? Check! Check! Check!

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Post Post #779 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:03 am

Post by Auro »

The Solve

Albert B. Rampage: Arrogance and taking control are an unnecessary call to attention in a gamestate where he'd be quite comfortable as scum.
Blair: General behavior in a player-list that doesn't award tunnels
Auro
: Accessed role PM; town.
Hoopla: Uniquely townreads me but also second-guesses it when the rest of town shouts that I'm scum; so there's no intent of buddying (even when I respond very positively to her generally in game).
Llamarble: Earnestness.
Porkens: I believe that "clueless" is not a way that Porkens would approach as scum.
Starbuck: The emotive reaction to the push on her, and subsequent relief at being termed a false positive both read town.
Untrod Tripod: Brazen admission of having nothing to add and call-out of the D1 solvers.
Green Crayons: One of the holistic townreads I have, rather than specific tells.
xRECKONERx: The call to cut out spam, and quick to recognize biases from playstyle (as covered earlier)

I've listed some of my reasons for townreading certain people with what I found significant and AI from them. It's not ordered by strength of read.
Now, who am I scumreading...? HMMMM
Let them live in suspense for a while :twisted:


Spoiler: To Llamabro
Sure. I actually don't believe you have an "error in your ways/process", just that your conclusion isn't correct. I believe it's valid to scumread someone based on a gut feeling of their play, and you did already admit you might have some confirmation bias when it comes to reading my actions. I'm imposing a constraint on myself for this game of not trying to post as much, and condense information whenever I do, and I'm cutting out many social/jokey elements of my play which you probably found as "cheerful" in those games. I don't think I've towntold yet by my own standards anyway :P Probably at best I can say that I wouldn't be playing this way as scum to this particular oldbie p-list (prolly would go way heavier on the sincerity part, like here or here). Alternatively, lynch people I scumread, watch them flip red, and then I'm obvtown ;)

What I had in mind when I said we could discuss things was about why I believe certain "unconventional" elements of play - including the lack of transparency at times, or entropy in terms of votes, sudden read-reversals; certain principles such as that good scum players can behave pro-town for most part of the game and then have a tiny fraction of damaging scumplay (thus making it unnecessary even to try and fit their actions into a holistic solve), how it's a reliable method to base reads just off individual instances of town/scumtells, how what appears to be irrelevant content (purely social interactions, say) can actually be AI/pro-town, etc. I doubt that these would really be game relevant, but sure, we can talk. I figured you'd appreciate it.
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Post Post #780 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:04 am

Post by Auro »

In post 778, AGar wrote:fuck all y’all for fucking 5+ pages exploding overnight.
A complaint about 5 pages... cute.
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Post Post #781 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:05 am

Post by Auro »

I really haven't made an effort to read VP Baltar's posts, which can be my homework for tomorrow. Until then, I take pride in my vanity etc
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Post Post #782 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:10 am

Post by Auro »

In post 778, AGar wrote:VOTE: Auro
Agar The Orrible
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Post Post #783 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:28 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

Agar wrote: Are you actually reading the thread or are you getting sparknotes somewhere?
Show me where y'all explained your reasons for voting Green Crayons then because I must have missed it.

__________

I was gonna catch up now but I got to the bottom of page 17 and decided I need to sleep more.
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Post Post #784 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:37 am

Post by Llamarble »

Relying too much on individual towntells unless they are :really: good (or the player doesn't have the scum-chops to pull them off) is risky.
A good scumgame will definitely have a few of those scum-moments to be proud of, where the game inspires you to do something that actually looks quite townie.
(that's why I give Agar a little less credit for his very good resolution to the BlairBuck affair - I think ScumAgar also catches on to the opportunity to make a good play)

I prefer consistent rapid fire moderate towntells that it would be an exhausting slog for scum to produce, like drawn out gamesolving attempts with lots of reevaluations and original thought.

I don't find 775 as town as ABR does.
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Post Post #785 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:44 am

Post by Auro »

In post 784, Llamarble wrote:Relying too much on individual towntells unless they are :really: good (or the player doesn't have the scum-chops to pull them off) is risky.
A good scumgame will definitely have a few of those scum-moments to be proud of, where the game inspires you to do something that actually looks quite townie.
Personal experience suggests it's reliable. Mostly because a lot of town
don't
fire towntells rapidly in the games I seem to play :P
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Post Post #786 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:47 am

Post by Blair »

In post 771, Albert B. Rampage wrote:See this is why I don't write motherfucking cases or try to explain my vote.

When I do, it brings the bandwagon to a grinding halt as people's biases and false references cloud their judgment and they hesitate.

When I say, look at the iso and find your own reasons to vote them, they try and try to find a reason, wind up seeing something new if not the exact thing I saw, and then they vote for the player I want.

There are a multitude of tells, and the one I use may not be the one someone else finds, but in the end, it doesn't matter as long as we win.
The danger here is that it is a form of hypnotic suggestion.

If you tell someone there's something obvious in the bushes over there, and they go look, they'll always come back with something. For them, the moment you suggested it, it became impossible to discern if anything was actually obvious at all.

It's fantastic for getting someone lynched if you're positive they're scum, but it completely erases the utility of wagons in assessing the strength or reliability of a read otherwise.

I still think VP Baltar is probably town, but if I go look in the bushes now I'll probably still find something.
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Post Post #787 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:21 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

I may be biased but I love the way Blair presented her Starbuck case. It really shows how clear Blair was about why she had voted iamausername and how it was other people, not her, who cared about iamausername having just two posts. I kinda scratched my head when Starbuck called that vote policy, but seeing it right there in one place like that really shows how badly Starbuck misrepped Blair.

Starbuck, how did that post confirm for you that you should be voting Blair? Where do you see scum motivation in the way she explained her position?

<- Typed that before I saw Starbuck call it OMGUS. I can't see where Blair would be so threatened by that one vote she'd resort to OMGUS, which scum tend to avoid because they know it looks bad anyway, but ok I guess...

I'm a little confused why so few people have talked about Starbuck much less voted there. Between the reactions to myself and green crayons voting her, the misrep of Blair and discrediting of the iamausername votes based on post count, and this OMGUS accusation, I just don't see how anyone has a town read on Starbuck or doesn't find her posting notable.

Like what does this even mean:
Cantlynchapuppy to Starbuck wrote: you're being inconsistent, but inconsistent in a town way
And how does this equal town even if it's true:
ABR wrote: Starbuck is always scummy in my experience. I think you guys are getting a false positive.
llamarble wrote: I don't think Crayons is particularly town that his wagon needs to dissolve; I prefer it over Starbuck's,
^The off handed comment shows apathy towards Starbuck and I don't see why. Llamarble, I know you had Starbuck as town in your original reads list but did you ever say why? Csn you either quote it for me if you did or elaborate now if you didn't?
More apathy:
Green Crayons wrote: I’m going to have to actually reread the Blair/Starbuck thing but my skimming as I glanced at the thread about when it was happening looked pretty tvt
Reck wrote: i skimmed it all but i really dont recall anything fun or exciting other than the starbuck wagon happening and me wanting to ignore it for now
_____________
hoopla wrote: it looks to me like auro has been deliberately subverting the expectations of the typical townie blueprint on D1. the no-lynch joke, the theory discussion in lieu of actual scumhunting, the early spamming seemingly devoid of depth. these actions can easily be interpreted as suspicious, because his entire posting appears to go against the grain. but the fact he is self-aware that he goes against the grain and does it anyway seems like a town mindset. a town mind resolute in playstyle, come what may from people's reactions - the following quotes from post 275 being prime examples;
That describes Auro's play pretty much exactly how I see it except that I'm not sure whether to call it town or scum play. It just looks more like the newer site meta. All of this just feels like the new style of play. It's kind of screw around until something catches your attention or deadline gets close. That makes it hard to have a read on this kind of player for most of Day 1 because it's easy for scum to duplicate that play.
Auro wrote: And why do you think that's only my shtick as scum?
I don't think what I'm doing in thread is anti-town, for the record
I don't know your meta, but if farside is correct she makes a good point against you. Do you have examples of playing this way as town?

__________

I'll try to finish later. It's nice out and the kids want to enjoy it.
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Post Post #788 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:53 am

Post by farside22 »

In post 733, Llamarble wrote:I think Auro is confusing people because he's scum playing pretty well.
He kept his vote movement from being too simple, gave reads and reasons and introspection, showed a bit of cheekiness.
The thing that's missing is the underlying attempt to actually figure out the game or signs of caring about directing the lynch toward scum.
And for his defensive methods, there is too much focus on 'your logic is bad or not presented.'

I linked the games I looked at so I can look at them again later if I need to.

I look forward to Auro's solve post.
This describes perfectly how i feel about auro. I see him asking players about a few people but i don't see anything that looks like an attempt to figure out those he finds scummy.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #789 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:00 am

Post by Auro »

In post 787, Kmd4390 wrote:I don't know your meta, but if farside is correct she makes a good point against you. Do you have examples of playing this way as town?
Please review my interactions with farside.
And yeah, most of my town games this year :D

farside was making a reference to a certain game from which I'll paste a selection of quotes:
Spoiler:
In post 1645, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Yeah I 180'd on my read on BnB

Y'all need me to gamesolve rn?

-Calvin
In post 1646, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Blatant Scum, give me a tl;dr scumcase on Birds n Bees, please.

Too lazy to go back and read.

-Calvin
In post 1647, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:People are free to make cases on who they think are scum, in like 4/5 sentences or less. I will critically evaluate them and pick the D1 lynch accordingly.
This will be a fun day. Shoot!

-Calvin
In post 1648, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Meanwhile
VOTE: Mastina

:)

-Calvin
In post 1654, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Gut

-Calvin
In post 1656, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:no

-Calvin
In post 1734, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Skim leaves me with gut town on farside but I'll give a closer look to and maybe deconstruct it later, but we're nearing deadline and I dunno if it's worth being arsed about

-Calvin

I proceeded to vote for someone and give a reason, people sorta ignored it so I also said eff it, and compromised out of laziness.
Soooo it's kind of whack to compare my play here to that game and say I'm showing no attempt to figure out people who are scummy? But I was also a model town player in that^ game?
:?:
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Post Post #790 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:04 am

Post by farside22 »

In post 729, Blair wrote:
In post 724, Auro wrote:Morning Tweet & Blair, I'd like it if you both can revisit my earlier push on farside and give me your thoughts on it.
Link please?
In post 725, Auro wrote:
In post 722, Blair wrote:You're not confused. I'm confused about you. As in, I have changed my mind on you a bunch of times.
Typo. Wanna talk about what makes me so enigmatic?
I was initially town reading you because I remember thinking we had a lot of similar takes and you seemed to be genuinely engaging with people.

Then a bunch of people agreed that the posts I liked were the scummiest posts in the game, and I assumed people knew you better than I did so I second guessed and if I squinted and tilted my head a little I could see what they meant.

Then I decided my heart wasn't really in it and I was probably right the first time. But I could still be wrong, for the same reasons.
Funny enough I don't see auro as town doing this. Hes usually more inquisitive and can be quiet rational. So until I see that player in the game my scum read on him stays. I think his push on me is basically omgus.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #791 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:44 am

Post by Green Crayons »

In post 783, Kmd4390 wrote:
Agar wrote: Are you actually reading the thread or are you getting sparknotes somewhere?
Show me where y'all explained your reasons for voting Green Crayons then because I must have missed it.
I read it mostly as him seeing my posting style as suspicious.

Regardless, he voiced the reason twice.
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #792 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:51 am

Post by Green Crayons »

So I
understand
the VP/ABR situation

(thanks for clarifying, ABR/Blair)

In post 711, VP Baltar wrote:I never said I was being aggressive about it. I said your response was an overly aggressive response because I called attention to you. I think you could do this as either alignment as a way to prompt reactions.
How in the world is saying

"You're on a wagon with MT. Is that a better explanation?"

Out of the blue (you hadn't been interacting with ABR), some sort of prod for ABR to actually pay attention to?
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #793 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:54 am

Post by Green Crayons »

ABR's case feels like it's coming from town. I'm not sure I'm convinced enough to join, but I like ABR's alignment because of it.
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #794 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:00 am

Post by Green Crayons »

In post 792, Green Crayons wrote:
In post 711, VP Baltar wrote:I never said I was being aggressive about it. I said your response was an overly aggressive response because I called attention to you. I think you could do this as either alignment as a way to prompt reactions.
How in the world is saying

"You're on a wagon with MT. Is that a better explanation?"

Out of the blue (you hadn't been interacting with ABR), some sort of prod for ABR to actually pay attention to?
Also, ABR was
asking
for direction.

Spoiler: ABR requests
In post 287, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
In post 283, Hoopla wrote:@ABR

do you have any thoughts on our two main wagons? seems weird of you to be posting during the formation of this battle and not bother addressing them at all.
I dont even start reading the game until page 25 these days.

Explain to me what's going on and I'll give you my opinion on it.
In post 318, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
In post 296, Hoopla wrote:
In post 287, Albert B. Rampage wrote:I dont even start reading the game until page 25 these days.

Explain to me what's going on and I'll give you my opinion on it.
town heroine hoopla dazzled onlookers with a stunning moment of divine intuition, powering the wagon on GC-scum.

in response, shady antihero blair rustled up an uninspired counterwagon on lurking easy-target iamausername. her motivations? god knows.
You didn't explain anything and I still need to be explained gc and iamuser if you want my vote


How is you giving him that direction something that would have made him turn on you?
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
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Post Post #795 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:27 am

Post by farside22 »

In post 789, Auro wrote:
In post 787, Kmd4390 wrote:I don't know your meta, but if farside is correct she makes a good point against you. Do you have examples of playing this way as town?
Please review my interactions with farside.
And yeah, most of my town games this year :D

farside was making a reference to a certain game from which I'll paste a selection of quotes:
Spoiler:
In post 1645, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Yeah I 180'd on my read on BnB

Y'all need me to gamesolve rn?

-Calvin
In post 1646, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Blatant Scum, give me a tl;dr scumcase on Birds n Bees, please.

Too lazy to go back and read.

-Calvin
In post 1647, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:People are free to make cases on who they think are scum, in like 4/5 sentences or less. I will critically evaluate them and pick the D1 lynch accordingly.
This will be a fun day. Shoot!

-Calvin
In post 1648, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Meanwhile
VOTE: Mastina

:)

-Calvin
In post 1654, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Gut

-Calvin
In post 1656, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:no

-Calvin
In post 1734, Calvin ānd Hobbes wrote:Skim leaves me with gut town on farside but I'll give a closer look to and maybe deconstruct it later, but we're nearing deadline and I dunno if it's worth being arsed about

-Calvin

I proceeded to vote for someone and give a reason, people sorta ignored it so I also said eff it, and compromised out of laziness.
Soooo it's kind of whack to compare my play here to that game and say I'm showing no attempt to figure out people who are scummy? But I was also a model town player in that^ game?
:?:
You haven't pushed anyone so laziness should not be a factor. Hell an attempt to put together a bunch of quote and calling a player some was the biggest thing you did in Animal Upick and you can barely do that without shit posting.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #796 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:29 am

Post by farside22 »

I not sure if I just noticed this or not but it seems like a few players are just shrugging their shoulders on who to scum read.
I mean if all else get some null reads out of the way to weed players out. If I'm wrong just ignore me.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #797 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:04 am

Post by Llamarble »

In post 778, AGar wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: Auro

Just not buying the VPB wagon. More to say at 7 when I’m not confined to a tablet, and a lovely fuck all y’all for fucking 5+ pages exploding overnight.
Why not? I think it's pretty good.
VOTE: VP Baltar
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Post Post #798 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:33 am

Post by Llamarble »

There is a significant disparity between Porkens' sitewide activity and his activity here.
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Post Post #799 (ISO) » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:42 am

Post by farside22 »

In post 798, Llamarble wrote:There is a significant disparity between Porkens' sitewide activity and his activity here.
I'm learning more and more that is NAI. I hate to say that because I found it useful once upon a time but these days it really depends on the player. Like Mastina for sure would be scummy doing that in my eyes. But I do expect some better post to come from pork if he is town. He can be a wide range of different things. I've seen him chill and relax to goofy and spammy and both times that was him as town.
But if he is town he's got good instinct so I will see what he does or says before I judge him.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.

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