Mini Normal 2157 | Over

[Andresvmb]

It’s WIFOM and they’re outted...

[Alduskkel]

pedit: ok a bunch of people posted while I was making this post but I'll address that in my next post not this one

Here's some evidence I pulled from VPB's iso that he's scum with Andres and not me.

Perhaps people who have played with Icon before can weigh in and say if this is typical behavior.

*waves*

ico can get very annoyed at scumreads he considers unfair, it's not scum!indicative

your thoughts on andres?

The pocketing of me feels a bit hard, so I have a natural skepticism of that. I would agree with you that some of his posts feel a bit like busy work, though I did find myself nodding along at a couple points. I could probably make a stronger argument that Billy and snowblaze are busy bodies with little substance.

Overall, still have a null on Andres. Would rather we ran up ico or Billy.

VPB avoids saying anything about Andres, and tries to shift attention onto players we know were town.

Koba and Aldsukkel are probably the worst of the testarossa votes, imo.

I actually lied, Janks vote is bad too.

There's almost no explanation of this wagon other than "tess uses a lot of words' and "I don't like snow wagon"

VPB setting himself up to vote for me at the appropriate time.

Let's counterwagon.

VOTE: Andresvmb.

Translation: "I know tess will flip town, so I'm going to find a spot to park my vote that won't draw suspicion D2"

Shading someone for voting Andres.

Andres is town af right now and I'm loving it.

Unexplained townread + perspective slip (of course scum love if their partner is being town af).

I don't think that's what andres was doing at all actually. I think he was saying Datisi was making a garbage point that obviously both wagons D1 were on town because janko flipped green. Like what? That should make zero sense unless you're really not wanting any scrutiny of the janko wagon, or you're opposed to a Bob flip. Doesn't mean Datisi is scum, but it's not a very convincing point he is making.

Defending andres instead of letting andres do it himself.

Official Vote Count 2.02

Elimination

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to eliminate someone.

bob3141

(3): NoPowerOverMe, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

NoPowerOverMe

(2): Billy Pilgrim, DkKoba

Not Voting

(6): hellbooks, Datisi, bob3141, Testarossa, Iconeum, Alduskkel

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-08-20 07:15:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

Look at this vote count. Andres is on a town wagon with two other scum, and the counterwagon is on scum!

Also, I find it incredible that I signed up to a normal game, and the Mod decided that a 3 person Masonry was just standard. That’s lovely.

This is a weird thing to say...

This just pings me, I can't explain it but maybe you guys can see it anyway?

I'm not going to quote every single interaction between Andres and VPB on Day 3 but... yes, they argued, and Andres will try to tell you that makes him town. But they didn't vote each other and there wasn't any serious pushing of the other as scum. It just looks like safe distancing.

andres - I think he and I are in the same boat in terms of bad reads this game. I could see this coming from town or scum, but I'm not going to penalize him too harshly for that. Honestly, before the bob flip, I would have had him as one of my stronger town reads and I'm not going to discount that entirely. I have felt like he's trying to solve the game. I've found his play under pressure less than stellar, fringing on intentional misrep. I don't really know andres meta (or most anyone in this game for that matter), so maybe he is the type of player who over tunnels and looks for any example he can grab without considering context....IDK. I do know him trying to shade me is notable. In some ways, I can understand given I was tracked to a body N1. That being said, I think it is fairly clear from the many discussions around the circumstances since that I'd have to be a wizard to be faking my claim...and I assure I am not. I also find his obvtown!Tess read completely bonkers.

This is a lot of text to give a very ambivalent read.

VOTE: testarossa

I feel pretty comfortable putting my vote back here now. I really don't see koba scum. The likelihood of either Aldus or Testa being scum seems strong, and testa has scummier actual behaviors imo. Not loving the desperation of Aldus' vote, but unless he is scum with NPOM or Koba, this wagon seems very town comprised. (And it's hard to see either combo given my town reads on those slots.)

This is a great way to set up a later vote on me after Testa flips town (and also links me with NPOMscum).

Team is almost certainly Aldus-NPOM-Koba I think.

I'm a bird in hand type person. Flip Koba, flip Aldus, see where PoE puts us. That's the optimal strategy

It's pretty clear VPB has sided with Andres against me. I WONDER WHY.

[hellbooks]

last post: has partner equity to be sure

VOTE: NPOM

Sure. Same odds.

definitely towny

UNVOTE:

I’m made myself abundantly clear. I’ll let others chime in here.

Dude, if you're town, stop just fucking voting willy nilly. One wrong vote and this get could be over if scum are online. Jesus.

hrmm.... big frown of thought

I don't see Koba-scum hardpushing Testa over me since miseliminating us in the opposite order seems easier. Also would Koba-scum really risk VPB getting an innocent on me when it'd be easier to just kill VPB?

That plus gut is leading me to think VPB is the scum here.

his entrance

[Andresvmb]

Why did I try and save Jankofan? Why did I not vote for Testa? Why has NPOM been gaslighting me since very early in the game, and include me in their solve yesterday? Why did I gamble the game on Ico being Town?

I think if you read closely, I don’t think you’ll find that it’s not particularly close.

[Andresvmb]

^I think you’ll find that it’s not particularly close*.

[hellbooks]

Why would you trust anything VPB has to say though?

this was pre him being outted. lol...

[Alduskkel]

hellbooks i think we should use today as a chance to discuss andres vs aldu and then just hang VP and whoever is alive can deal with it tomorrow.

think VP / andres at beginning of day was v plausible theater. i'd have to reread D4 which i plan on doing -- of some importance here is aldus also came out of the gate saying he believed you over VP, i think. idr if he pivoted but i think he didn't

You're correct -- I consistently said I thought VPB was more likely scum than Koba during their 1v1.

[Andresvmb]

last post: has partner equity to be sure

VOTE: NPOM

Sure. Same odds.

definitely towny

UNVOTE:

I’m made myself abundantly clear. I’ll let others chime in here.

Dude, if you're town, stop just fucking voting willy nilly. One wrong vote and this get could be over if scum are online. Jesus.

hrmm.... big frown of thought

I don't see Koba-scum hardpushing Testa over me since miseliminating us in the opposite order seems easier. Also would Koba-scum really risk VPB getting an innocent on me when it'd be easier to just kill VPB?

That plus gut is leading me to think VPB is the scum here.

his entrance

I think what you need to remember is that VPB and NPOM where always tied together. Ever since the track on VPB, if NPOM went down, VPB went down. So you have to understand that Alduskkel was always going to leave room to separate himself from them too. But Alduskkel’s entrance comes after I had already voted outside the investigative. Alduskkel was obviously waiting to see if the plan to claim a guilty worked out before making an entrance. That’s at least how I remember it.

[hellbooks]

so like
only 2 realistic scenarios

VP is town, scum is koba + aldus + npow
VP is scum, other scum is aldus + npow

let's flip npow

killin ico prob benefits aldus

[hellbooks]

by which i mean it definitely does

[Alduskkel]

Andres, are you really arguing I'm scum based just on the timing of when I posted?

[Andresvmb]

Why would you trust anything VPB has to say though?

this was pre him being outted. lol...

So? VPB is leaving misinformation out there. He’s Scum. You should be reading other Town players perspectives to inform yours. The Scum won’t just easily give you the answer by looking back.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, are you really arguing I'm scum based just on the timing of when I posted?

No, but it blunts the impact of your entrance. If you say what you said D4 prior to me already openly doubting VPB and voting outside of VPB/Koba, that’s one thing. But you didn’t. My vote was already out there. That makes a big difference.

[hellbooks]

if this theory is true

then VP is scum, with Koba being town -> Andres pushing away from koba and doubting VP so much means Andres is conftown

so scumteam is VP + NPOW + Aldus

i'll go reread them in ISO now

ico settling on this solve would make him an enormous threat to this very team
might decide to trust this guy o_o

@VP

but we both agree NPOW is literally Always scum, yes?

If we flip there, you have an investigation again. If scum go for the full wifom play, you have information tomorrow. If scum decide that play is over, and kill you, we will have confirmation on scum!koba.

That's a lot better then killing koba today, yes?

If you actually vote for NPOM at this stage, I’m going to freak out. I have a 1v1 outside the investigation. NPOM doesn’t make sense even if I think the guy is Scummy as hell.

POH fuck..... !!! !!! hmmmm ugh guhg guh guh gh

[hellbooks]

no i think thats like a towny thing to say from andres lol

[hellbooks]

it comes from someone who doesn't know what npom is gonna flip i think

[hellbooks]

might trust the institutional base of knowledge we have here & commit to aldus last scum

[Alduskkel]

@Hellbooks I would like for you to explain these posts of mine from a Scum mindset.

2652
2655
2657
2658
2702
2809
2813
2867

2652: This is just self-defense. Also seems like you KNEW there was a scum PT cop. Same for 2655.
2657: Just distancing. I can easily dig up another post where you say VPB is nearly conftown.

I say near certainty because VPB is not Confirmed Town, but nearly so.

As for the other posts, well, congratulations, you distanced from VPB and now you've dug them back up to try to prove you're town. Congratulations.
2867: I called Icon town, too.

[Alduskkel]

hellbooks, what do you think of post 4101?

[Andresvmb]

^you are ignoring the progression on VPB. But of course you are, you’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Like 2599 comes before I made all the other posts...

[Andresvmb]

So I knew there was a Scum PT Cop, and I decided to out that information to benefit the Scum... how?

[Alduskkel]

You didn't "decide" to out the information, you just had a case of TMI.

[hellbooks]

OK WAIT hellbooks
u play devils advocate and u pretend like aldu is town and u just present arguments and i see if thyer good or not.

or we can do it the other way around. i think thatd be an effective way to bounce around stuff. sorta like a hydra except our thoughts are public

oh fuck ok. yeah i'll devil's advocate. guess the town argument would be like, aldus scum is doublebussing in D4 which seems like a bit like shooting ones self in the foot, andres testing out the waters on NPOM, dragging his feet on the wagon later while refusing to actually make any actionable things on the koba/vp 1v1... and come to think about it where exactly

was

the switch between "npom and aldus are equally scum because icon is town" and "if you vote npom i will lose my shit because aldus is on a whole new level of scummy" -- i guess like somewhere along the line it became common knowledge about the three 1v1s of the game but idk when that switch flipped

[hellbooks]

HELLBOOKS WOULD U BE MAD AT ME IF DRUNK ME VOTED RN LOL

literally no i am uncritically pro impulse voting