Mini Normal 2169 : random facts, game over !

[Battle Mage]

I feel greatly bullied here btw
y'all tunnel hard
accuse me of using AtE if u wish. In a way it is asking u to stop tunneling this hard

i dont buy it, as earlier you accused us of not tunnelling you hard enough.

[Battle Mage]

I am inexperienced correct and that means I make more mistakes that others no matter my alignment. That is a fact. However using something that everyone has to go thru against me to discredit my opinions is a pretty shitty thing to do.

LHF- low hanging fruit or easy limbait

I Fosed Datisi and that doesn't equal I must follow up with a vote or SR
I SRed BM and I still do but am a little uncertain and will be rethinking. I dont think this SR will disappear. I'm just waiting for more evidence

as i noted in a previous post, you yourself are using your inexperience as a crutch to absolve yourself of responsibility for high quality scumhunting. You're lazily tunnelling me, and accusing me of things which are factually and demonstrably inaccurate, at the expense of time and effort, for no benefit. You have discredited your own opinions to excuse yourself for when I, at some stage, flip town. Your read on me is based on nothing, and you haven't shown any legitimate scumhunting to me yet. Everyone makes mistakes, all you can ever do is try your best, regardless of your pedigree.

There's a question of consistency with your Datisi and BM reads. I won't labour the point as i've said it many times now. A town player should not feel compelled to stick with the same reads, but they should be able to explain why their reads changed. You are sticking with a debunked attack on me for no reason, and yet have not explained why you backtracked so hard from Datisi.

This conflict directly with all the bs u threw at me earlier. This is subjective. If you want to set up limbait, u will just say they are backtracking but if they are ur scum buddy, u will say they are town for having fluid reads. I am sticking to a SR on u bc ur scummy as hell. I didn't back track "so hard" It was a tiny change in opinion and you turned it into a huge ass deal

I'm not taking the credit away from Datisi, and neither should you. He busted you, I was just there to see it. Clearly your read is not serious to me because you aren't actually following the game - you're just obsessing over posts about you and I, and ignoring all the other stuff going on. How could you possibly not stick to a SR on me, when you've been ignoring everybody else?

[Battle Mage]

Spoiler:

I can only assume that datisi’s lack of enthusiasm, as proven FACTUALLY by her not getting first post, is a result of her being scum, probably with iconeum

2 down 1 to go

not so fast. "2 down 1 to go"? are you slipping that you know there are 3 scum in this game? the only logical explanation for this is that you are scum yourself and therefore this is a shitpush

checkmate

this is particularly weak, and i'm not overwhelmingly impressed with the jokey, overly flamboyant openings from Menalque and Datisi. Odds of both being scum, slim. Odds of 1 being scum, pretty good based on past experience. VOTE: Datisi

Who wants to leave RVS early? Show of hands

After your little opening exchange with Datisi, I'm about ready to leave the game early. If only I hadn't claimed already...

I agree that its likely one is scum. The claiming early thing reads bad on ur part unless its a joke

Scr00 y00, don't tell me how to play, grr! And if you're gonna just piggyback off my reads, gimme some actual data to work with, rather than just agreeing with me.

idc if its a joke. its not a joke you should be making

With respect, you've said you have not completed a single game of mafia. Even if I completely suck ass, I don't need you telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing in this game. Dial down the preaching sister.

Found 2 scums 1 more to goooo ^^

who are the two?

it was a joke calm ur butt

is anything you've said so far serious? this jokey shit gets short shrift with me when it's prolific. Nothing worse than someone doing a bunch of scummy crap and excusing it with "I was only joking "

Discrediting this early. The defensive one definitely looks like you here.

plus I dont have to have finished town games to prove I'm town. This logic is really flawed

tell me how you will prove it otherwise though?

I dont think you need finished town games to prove ur town. Meta is trash and unreliable a lot of the time anyways so I dont see what's wrong with not having any. It just means I'm newer than everyone else but so? u trying to tell me that all new players have no way to prove they aren't scum and have to be scum every round until they have a finished town game? Im being a lil defensive ig? But like ur logic just isn't making any sense to me...

The wording of this is really poor. wishy washy rubbish.

"meta is trash"? an odd thing for a newbie who has never completed a game as town to say.

Meta can be very useful, although it isn't a silver bullet. Also useful is the threat of meta - and the "meta is trash" line is a real cheap way to try and discourage people from using an alternative avenue for scrutinising others. Marginally scummy but also bad form in my view (although i am old school).

And yes, I do think you are defensive, and I'm pinged by your hasty retreat when you tried to pressure Datisi and he wasn't having any of it. You said his vote was scummy, but your lack of courage of conviction didn't ring as town to me.

Obviously you not having a completed town game doesnt mean you are scum. I'm just testing you.

Discrediting again. "Her saying meta sucks doesn't mean shit cuz she's new" is what I hear. "I'm just testing u" what kind of literal bs is this? I feel like I'd have to be the stupidest person in the world to believe that all that tunneling can just be summed up as a quick "test"

BM is basically only focusing on me and ngl that strikes me as pretty scummy considering I'm prolly one of the newest players in general in this game and I definitely strike most people as LHF first impression. Tunneling this early into the game is just a huge scumtell imo.

VOTE: Battle Mage

His entire play so far has been fluff and tunneling Noraa. There has been zero other content

I'll actually comment on this, because it's riddled with flaws. I have commented on other things - I talked about Datisi and Menalque's early engagement, and I talked about Datisi's vote on you. Not much else has happened, so I've basically talked about everything I possibly could have. Some fluff, but nothing selective.

Playing the newbie card to get yourself out of the spotlight above, is a scumtell in my book. I'm not going to give you a free-pass because you're new. You being new and vulnerable is a very good reason for targetting you in the first place - you are more likely to give interesting AI reactions in response to pressure.

Saying tunnelling is a scumtell when you have been tunnelling me as much as you think I've tunnelled you, is....meh.

1) you already replied to this post once
2) I'm tunneling as much as u? u take that back. hands down a complete lie.
3) "being new and vulnerable is a very good reason to target" hold tf up. I've never seen a playerlist bully noobs like this before. This isn't even that AI its just purely mean at this point.

that's helpful, thanks Bob! she doesn't really think datisi is null, she's just too scared of him to continue pressing. Doesn't want a fight on two-fronts, which seems like sensible play for Noraa-scum, but nonsensical play for Noraa-town.

On a lighter note, Taylor Swift hasn't posted in the first 5 pages!?

dont talk for me. thanks

tldr: NO I'M NOT SCUM, YOU'RE SCUM, supported by lies and rubbish.

I'm not planning to respond to any more of these - Noraa, keep tunnelling me as much as you like though, scumhunting is overrated.

[Battle Mage]

yes let me tell you how much you should have me as locktown on page 3

...you hadn't even posted by page 3?

[Battle Mage]

Bruh I haven’t even read saw but if you’re saying “you remind me of me, not a good vibe” that p strongly implies you were scum in the game you’re saying I remind you of you in

i disagree

Ok why

eh? i don't agree it strongly implies that at all - it's a leap of faith you have made. The burden of proof is on you to convince otherwise, not the other way around.

I think this is pretty clearly not the reasonable assessment of anyone who’s coming to that statement from outside of the two of us

“You remind me of me, not a good vibe” in a /mafia game context/ is, i think, pretty clearly implying that you’re saying something about alignment unless you wanna argue that you have a well known reputation for disliking yourself as a person

i prefer "being humble" than "disliking myself as a person", it's only a game dude.

"you remind me of me" sounds much more about character and behaviour rather than necessarily alignment, so I think your assumption was odd at best. Although increasingly I don't care as it's a relatively trivial thing in the grand scheme.

[Iconeum]

BM, hot take

noraa counter tunneling and omgus'ing you isn't scum!indicative
noraa using the newbie card to get out of jail for free is NAI, because scum!noraa would probably be using that as much as town!noraa

[Battle Mage]

ah, i'm taking a break from this one, you guys spam so much!

I'll be watching though!

[Battle Mage]

BM, hot take

noraa counter tunneling and omgus'ing you isn't scum!indicative
noraa using the newbie card to get out of jail for free is NAI, because scum!noraa would probably be using that as much as town!noraa

I disagree, but the jury's out on everyone really - I'm not lock-scum on Noraa or anything mad. I think there's going to be high volume posting in this game, so I'm going to take more of a backseat and share my observations later.

In response to Datisi and Menalque calling me arrogant - not actually true, it's mostly just tongue-in-cheek really!

I'm aware my scumhunting record overall is pretty marginal at best, although on my day I can be very good, and am improving with age. I generally do my best work when i don't post so much, however that's also less fun! Also pressuring newbies in non-newbie games is just objectively the right thing to do.

[Battle Mage]

despite noraa having (what i consider) bad insights, i don't think they come from a scummy mindset

why do you think bad insights come from a town mindset

I don't really see town!noraa directly approaching BM, noraa is trying to shade BM NOT solve them, how is that a townie mindset

I'm not a fan of lying. It's unethical and goes against my religion.

Good note. Then can you (if you havent in the pages that follow this) explain your logic for hardclaiming VT?

I can, but I won't. Good question though.

[Battle Mage]

ignore first quote i guess, i was just gonna say i agree or something lol

[Battle Mage]

So far BM's the scummiest person here. I see his SR on me as trying to set up some easy limbait since I hear I tend to give off that first impression. Ofc we are still technically kinda in rvs so this is a fairly weak read but ye I will be putting this here for future reference of what I was thinking 3 pages into the game. First impressions can often help town find the scums so I'm not too sure if I found one but we'll see

I feel greatly bullied here btw
y'all tunnel hard
accuse me of using AtE if u wish. In a way it is asking u to stop tunneling this hard

The reason is that town is going to let the other scums do whatever tf they want.

Why is this a bad thing tho, we still get a scum for the trouble and we can worry about sorting the others later if this is TvS

my point is that we also need to be keeping an eye out for the other scums. I, for one want a BM lim today since I am literally so certain those aggressive pushes dont come from town. But I think while we are doing this, we should be keeping an eye out for the other scums.

to elaborate a bit on my read - nora right now is doing exactly to bm what they are accusing bm of doing to others. the hypocrisy is not lost. i don't see nora vs bm as TvT but right now I'm null on BM and scumreading nora, and i absolutely think this could be an SvS bussing episode.
i'm slightly confused as to why town would be this confident in a read that they have developed in the first few hours of the game? if you're THIS confident that BM is scum, then simply voting them and removing them (without "keeping an eye out" for the other scum) would give town a massive leg up. i'm looking at nora as potential scum, and i'm looking at BM as a potential scumpartner. piisirrational is looking pretty good to me right now, although i will acknowledge that i am biased towards analyzers/gamesolvers so i'm putting him as a null, maybe a slight townlean. although menalque is kinda annoying me with their posting frequency, i'm townleaning them because they seem at least a little bit genuine about trying to read the BM/Nora bandwagon. no one else has enough substance to be read right now.

to respond to #224 - no it didn't; most players haven't posted anything substantial yet.

interesting - agree with the hypocrisy take, think the SvS take is a stretch. for future reference, especially for any newbies watching who end up scumteaming with me:

A. I won't bus you on Day 1 because I'm not a dick.
B. If I bus you at any point, I'll make sure it's somewhat elegant.

[Battle Mage]

and i'm looking at BM as a potential scumpartner.

This is a spicy take, you think BM would bus right out of the gate on page 2?

Also, yeah, sorry about the posting frequency I will be trying to dial it down, just gimme some leeway for the first day or so I’m v excited by this PL and that’s running through a bit

all good! yeah i haven't been on the site in a while and don't have personal experience with anyone here i don't think; but i do think that scum opening with straight bussing on page 2 is reasonable and not completely irration
bussing is one of those things that you can WIFOM the hell out of though so i'll have to wait and see

side note: i've been reading the wiki to get up to speed on all the hip new sayings - has LyLo been replaced by ELo in its entirety or is LyLo still pretty commonly used?

I think I recognise your name from somewhere but I’m sure we haven’t played together

Hmmm. Idk, I’m not generally inclined to bus straight away but I know some people would see it differently. I guess I just think that in general, most players won’t bus that early on when their buddy hasn’t done anything /that/ incriminating and there’s still lots of ways out. I would generally only expect that from someone who is (1) really arrogant and (2) really competent as scum, and I’m not sure if BM meets both criteria to a sufficient extent for it to benefit his wincon to actively try to elim a teammate > just letting day play a little bit, seeing where the cards fall, making a push on a slot that seems vulnerable from there

So I guess: possible, but unlikely is my stance on the v early hardbus

lylo is still used but mostly as a slip of the tongue, I think. I’m backing gylo (guillotine-or-lose) but I think elo is prob the most used atm

oi, I'm exceptionally competent as scum. 100% winrate this year. Ok maybe I'm a little arrogant too then

[Iconeum]

VOTE: goldenparasox

[Iconeum]

that typo is funny as hell

[Iconeum]

Spoiler:

it's been five hours. how do we already have nine pages? Discussion so far seems pretty spammy and unhelpful, so let's VOTE: noraa because they're giving me quite scummy vibes.

So far BM's the scummiest person here. I see his SR on me as trying to set up some easy limbait since I hear I tend to give off that first impression. Ofc we are still technically kinda in rvs so this is a fairly weak read but ye I will be putting this here for future reference of what I was thinking 3 pages into the game. First impressions can often help town find the scums so I'm not too sure if I found one but we'll see

I feel greatly bullied here btw
y'all tunnel hard
accuse me of using AtE if u wish. In a way it is asking u to stop tunneling this hard

The reason is that town is going to let the other scums do whatever tf they want.

Why is this a bad thing tho, we still get a scum for the trouble and we can worry about sorting the others later if this is TvS

my point is that we also need to be keeping an eye out for the other scums. I, for one want a BM lim today since I am literally so certain those aggressive pushes dont come from town. But I think while we are doing this, we should be keeping an eye out for the other scums.

to elaborate a bit on my read - nora right now is doing exactly to bm what they are accusing bm of doing to others. the hypocrisy is not lost. i don't see nora vs bm as TvT but right now I'm null on BM and scumreading nora, and i absolutely think this could be an SvS bussing episode.
i'm slightly confused as to why town would be this confident in a read that they have developed in the first few hours of the game? if you're THIS confident that BM is scum, then simply voting them and removing them (without "keeping an eye out" for the other scum) would give town a massive leg up. i'm looking at nora as potential scum, and i'm looking at BM as a potential scumpartner. piisirrational is looking pretty good to me right now, although i will acknowledge that i am biased towards analyzers/gamesolvers so i'm putting him as a null, maybe a slight townlean. although menalque is kinda annoying me with their posting frequency, i'm townleaning them because they seem at least a little bit genuine about trying to read the BM/Nora bandwagon. no one else has enough substance to be read right now.

to respond to #224 - no it didn't; most players haven't posted anything substantial yet.

the first quote is GP's opening, which is a complaint about activity being unhelpfull, despite him getting a scumread out of it. Not normal towniel logic. Not to mention hopping on what seems to be the popular opening wagon with reasons best described as... not there.

Second quote is a fencesit where GP explicitely doesn't town v townread the fight, picks noraa as the scum in between the 2, but lets open a door where he can scumread either of them, even in a team. There is not a single word of logic behind this thinking nor an explanation.

This furthers my belief that noraa v bm is in fact town v town
and GP's position is a scum opening that i've seen quite a bit recently.

[Battle Mage]

you think it isnt TvT, i disagree.

I mean, I think this

BM and noraa both apparently think this

Bob maybe thinks this?

Datisi thinks this

In other words, it’s a very natural and reasonable take to see this as TvS, so my point is you’re not seeing it that way, and I think that’s potentially TMIy — especially when you made posts commenting on it that did imply that you thought things that (predominantly BM) had said were AI but then you... call it TvT and vote a random player who hasn’t contributed anything yet

Yes, I find that a problematic sequence of events in a world where you’re town

I don't think reading me and Noraa as both being town is scum-indicative for Taylor. I'd be pretty surprised if a few people didn't take that position. Often, but not always the case, mathematically and empirically speaking. I generally think you're overplaying your hand so far, although maybe you're trying to emulate me?

right mena moved the vote, i'm tired

well its just strange that out of the four people who had been active to that point, one pair townread each other, another pair scumread each other and crossvoted, and then the first pair hopped on opposing sides of the wagons. was odd.

is it ~strange/odd~ in a scummy way?

I would agree that he’s arrogant but that’s exactly why I don’t think him making an overconfident push is clearing? Like I think my impression of his scumgame is that he’s cocky enough to just shitpush out of the gate under the assumption it will be townread for ~taking stances~ and ~trying to solve~

If his take on me is just a joke then :roll-eyes: maybe I’m overreacting. But if it’s serious then I do think it’s +scum equity. But rn I prefer noraa and I don’t think it’s SvS. Like BM is probably in the fairly small subset of players who think highly enough of themselves to just lolbus a partner out of the gate for cred, but even knowing that I would say it’s clearing for him for 2-4 days depending on what the rest of his content is like just because lolbussing a partner is pretty rare as a thing to happen from page 2

i didn't say him making an overconfident push early is clearing? i said he's currently more town than scum to me because the push he made nicely aligned with my thoughts a couple of times

i don't know if it is (and @BM you're free to jump in here and correct me) but that's kinda the impression i got (since tbh the thing kinda looked like a pissing contest)
agreed on the room-temperature take of BM/noraa probably not s/s

talk to me about bob townlean?

pedit: not reading

Sorry I don't even know what he's talking about dude, help a brother out!? You're probably right though, so I'll just agree with you in ignorance

If it’s icon/noraa/Taylor then I’m a god and I’m sigging myself saying this postgame

ur not a god cuz I'm town

Well if you are and BM is scum instead then we’ll call it quits at demigod

arrogant or what? are you (in your own words) lolbussing your partner Noraa?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Menalque

At least partly because it would be hilarious if we flip him Day 1 when he said it would be impossible, and partly to get to the bottom of this secret PT mystery.

[shellyc]

hmmmmmmm that's a decent case, 227 is very fence-sitty

still harder gut + opening scumpings on taylor

another slot I feel uneasy about is piisrational - a huge IIoA wall and weirdly townleaning taylor + scumlean menal

@menal can you elaborate on the hood things
I gut TR menalque + I see actual attempts to solve noraa and BM

[shellyc]

I don't think reading me and Noraa as both being town is scum-indicative for Taylor. I'd be pretty surprised if a few people didn't take that position. Often, but not always the case, mathematically and empirically speaking. I generally think you're overplaying your hand so far, although maybe you're trying to emulate me?

the way that taylor conveys it's TvT without much explanation sounds like TMI.

[Iconeum]

VOTE: Menalque

At least partly because it would be hilarious if we flip him Day 1 when he said it would be impossible, and partly to get to the bottom of this secret PT mystery.

fine i'll spill the beans

menalque is notorious for fake claiming with/towards me and my potential roles in game, and we tend to get into a fight over it early on. He's never hard claimed like this with me tho

IIRC it was Always town!menal who pulled this shit but i'll look towards Datisi 'The Keeper Of Games' for confirmation

[Battle Mage]

I'm torn on whether Menalque is making a genuine attempt to solve Noraa and me. I like his prolific posting, although some of the reasoning behind his suspicions leave a little to be desired.

I'm not super excited by the GP case at first look, although commendable effort by Ico.

[shellyc]

BM whats your read on taylor?

[Battle Mage]

I don't think reading me and Noraa as both being town is scum-indicative for Taylor. I'd be pretty surprised if a few people didn't take that position. Often, but not always the case, mathematically and empirically speaking. I generally think you're overplaying your hand so far, although maybe you're trying to emulate me?

the way that taylor conveys it's TvT without much explanation sounds like TMI.

could be a TvT gut-read on 2 players passionately accusing each other, so I don't think so. I mean it's pissible, but could just as easily be nothing. You're answering for Menalque here?

[Battle Mage]

BM whats your read on taylor?

I just finished a game where Taylor was scum, and she wasn't too hard to spot - openly playing against town wincon. Nothing has pinged me here yet, which would lead me to believe Taylor=town, although early days.

[shellyc]

no im not answering for menal, i saw it being brought up

still wanna hear an elaboration from taylor regarding that read because it isnt well explained
like ico spent ages trying to discover the TvT-ness of that conflict and I buy it

pedit: meta is trash