Newbie 2038: Elements [Game Over]

[Umlaut]

Spangled replaces cylstar. Please welcome him!

[Umlaut]

Vote Count 2.5

Argon, ₁₈Ar

— noble gas, standard atomic weight 39.95, group 18, period 3, p-block

fferyllt

(2): 72offsuit, muh316

muh316

(2): safebet222, Mizzytastic

Spangled

(1): Egix96

72offsuit

(1): JDye

Not voting

(2): Spangled, fferyllt

With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-11-15 02:50:00)

[fferyllt]

I've been in bed with a headache most of today and I'm busy the next 4 hours so I've only really skimmed. I'll try and catch up before bed depending on how tired I feel. This is the stuff that stood out to me on a skim.


Based on the vote count at the top of the page (I know it's changed since), I would be very surprised if all 4 of those 2-vote wagons are on town. Scum have 4 different players to pick from there and it feels odd to me that they'd pick in a way that produces that split. It also makes JDye's decision note to vote his lowest read feel like it's less scummy unless muh-JDye is exactly the team. It's SO easy for scum to vote there, as a replacement coming in with new perspectives onto a player the momentum of the day is turning against. Not that I like the no voting, especially when it's leaving the old vote instead of an actual unvote.

Activity isn't necessarily an alignment tell. For Egix at least I can say I've seen them be low activity as town, and in a mish mash game I ran as a scum role that is specifically trying to look as town as possible (instead of town enough to get someone else elimmed). I might have read a game he was in as scum, but I don't remember one and I've definitely not been involved in one.

@muh - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically with my question about scum intent for the way you've lurked, just the general feel from the game as a whole turning in your direction. You were a good policy elim if that activity level continued but a policy elim in general is a last resort or a "oh god I don't want this in ELo".

My thoughts were people seemed to be scum reading you for it, and if you are strategically lurking as scum (as opposed to, y'know, busy) and you have a choice to pull yourself up when you get pressured, you do. You have to be genuinely busy or very confident in being able to pull off TSTBS otherwise.

However, no one feels town enough to you to even give a slight lean?

@AGamblingPig - that's a weird way to phrase something about a group of 3 you are included in. Why do you think that?

I'm a lowposter in general, really. But yeah, in the Secret H game I had no idea what to say most of the time :/

I've played with !scum and !town egix. Low energy, low posting for both alignments. Not particularly aggressive either.

what was your read of egix at this point?

[fferyllt]

We've not really meshed as a group of players. It happens some times and it is generally bad for town. I don't know how to fix it though. The d1n1 flips can sometimes help because it builds narratives. But you can't rely on it cos scum can kill to try and maintain town apathy.

I've backed off a bit between real life stuff and cos my activity level felt like it was smothering instead of encouraging in this group but I plan to be around and catching up for an hour or two later on. I need to solidify on who I want to consider for elim instead of voting cyl cos I wanted to sort.

Mizzy when I asked earlier about apathy you didn't bring up the possibility of the apathy being scum-maintained. Has something changed to make that seem less likely? Did you have thoughts at this time on who could be helping maintain the apathy?

FWIW I'm around to bounce ideas. If the thread heats up, I'll split my time between catching up and playing more in the moment.

[fferyllt]

@Umlaut will we get some extra time on the clock?

[Mizzytastic]

I hadn't considered it because I know a lot of it for me is game external. Scum aren't intentionally destroying my sleep schedule and exposing me to mental health triggers. Maybe other people feel differently? I remember some people day 1 having a positive response to my day 1 posting reducing so maybe it'd be worth checking who that was?

It felt like the apathy developed very naturally? We've had a bunch of replacements and low activity. And there wasn't an nk which is possibly the best scum tool for maintaining apathy. Maybe it's the lack of data? AGP didn't really interact so all we really get is the wagon composition. No one has really driven the game forward except 72/JDye in regards to each other today.

Honestly I in the player I could most easily case for intentionally fostering apathy would be me but I know I'm just having a shitty time. This game was supposed to be a lower stress environment for me to get through without replacing out. I won't cos God knows this game doesn't need another but I think I'll stick to modding for a good few months before trying again

[Mizzytastic]

Did someone stick out to you as fostering it?

[Mizzytastic]

Basically I'm pretty useless, i know that, I'm just trying to be around when I can so it's not just another dead slot but I'm running on gut cos it takes me half an hour to reread a page right now

[Umlaut]

@Umlaut will we get some extra time on the clock?

I would have extended the time remaining to 24 hours but there are still 24 hours on the clock anyway, so no.

[safebet222]

I feel like some of my questions are going to be buried in walls, so I'm going to start asking some separately.

Safebet, in your post 218 you said something about checking your confbias on 72 midway through the catch-up and then ended the post voting him. This is pretty far back in game time, but I'd still like to know if that was a joke, or if were questioning yourself about the strength/accuracy of your read.

It wasn't a joke. I was truly questioning myself. I couldn't beleive so much of what he did was pinging me. I was really hoping to sort him out... He was my first scumread. Not so sure anymore after this latest spat with JDye. I'm inclined to think its TvT. Any thoughts on that?

[muh316]

VOTE: muh

Are you advocating for a policy elimination on me? Seems like you were advocating one on D1 too.

[fferyllt]

I hadn't considered it because I know a lot of it for me is game external. Scum aren't intentionally destroying my sleep schedule and exposing me to mental health triggers. Maybe other people feel differently? I remember some people day 1 having a positive response to my day 1 posting reducing so maybe it'd be worth checking who that was?

It felt like the apathy developed very naturally? We've had a bunch of replacements and low activity. And there wasn't an nk which is possibly the best scum tool for maintaining apathy. Maybe it's the lack of data? AGP didn't really interact so all we really get is the wagon composition. No one has really driven the game forward except 72/JDye in regards to each other today.

Honestly I in the player I could most easily case for intentionally fostering apathy would be me but I know I'm just having a shitty time. This game was supposed to be a lower stress environment for me to get through without replacing out. I won't cos God knows this game doesn't need another but I think I'll stick to modding for a good few months before trying again

Sorry! I took a break for dinner

I'm not very good at zeroing in on scum-generated apathy, but I don't usually succumb to apathy so there's that.

I've modded a lot more newbie games than I've played and from that perspective excessive replacements can be really damaging to a game's momentum, even when the new players put their hearts into it.

Did someone stick out to you as fostering it?

Not so far. And I'm not sure I'll see root causes, especially not seeing the early game in real time. I'm up to page 12 in my read-through, saw that you mentioned scum generation of apathy and wanted to know what was going on at that point to make apathy a topic of discussion.

I feel like some of my questions are going to be buried in walls, so I'm going to start asking some separately.

Safebet, in your post 218 you said something about checking your confbias on 72 midway through the catch-up and then ended the post voting him. This is pretty far back in game time, but I'd still like to know if that was a joke, or if were questioning yourself about the strength/accuracy of your read.

It wasn't a joke. I was truly questioning myself. I couldn't beleive so much of what he did was pinging me. I was really hoping to sort him out... He was my first scumread. Not so sure anymore after this latest spat with JDye. I'm inclined to think its TvT. Any thoughts on that?

I don't think I'm at the point in the game where this is happening yet. I'm on page 12 in my read through. Whereabouts does the spat take off?

----------

Time's pretty short, so I'm going to skip back and forth between catching up and keeping up with new posts.

If there's stuff folks think the new replacements need to know right away, or places in the thread that we should prioritize, please let us know!

[Spangled]

Okay uh I'm just going to try and read the whole thread from the beginning and comment on it; I'll do it as quickly as possible 'cause a day certainly isn't much time and I imagine I live in a different timezone than the majority of the playerlist.

I did read the first 6 or 7 pages quickly before repping in and the one thing I'm going to say is that I reckon that, from those pages, Mizzy is probably town, but I ought to properly catch up and comment and hopefully organise my thoughts.

Oh and hello Egix; sorry I mislynched you that one time.

[safebet222]

I don't think I'm at the point in the game where this is happening yet. I'm on page 12 in my read through. Whereabouts does the spat take off?

Pages 18-21

[fferyllt]

137 Muh316 your phrasing here sounds like you expected multiple RVS votes. Did you think pushing you for lack of content was scummy? With the exception of the question to cel

It bugs me a little that with the exception of the question to cylstar about not wanting to ruin relationships with Mizzy'. Muh only reacted to posts pushing her for activity here.

72's post 140 I like this. Hunterr's push on this post is meh, but feels town-meh.

I had a mild sense of Muh trying to buddy Hunterr in 145. It comes right after Hunterr challenged Egix for pushing muh in an otherwise not very incisive set of posts.

Mizzy's 149 gives me a town-paranoia vibe.

150 chips away at that impression of Muh buddying hunterr.

153 cylstar's posting style is super deferential and indirect/passive voice. There could be something AI in it but I'm leaning not based on posts so far.

It feels a little like 72 and Mizzy are vying for town leadership. On page 7, 72 is reaching out to Muh and egix to work together. Maybe I've read too much into Mizzy's posts, but 158 sounds like she wants to head off 72 and egix working together. Hunterr comes off as someone who works alone.

I like Jdye's entrance into the game. 135 for the most part is where my head is at with regard to the data so far.

Gambling Pig's 167 bugs me a little just because this a catchup post and I would have expected more thoughts about other players besides the ones he mentions here. I wonder if I'm doing the same with some players. I don't think so.

Predecessor's 168 made me smile. I'm not predominantly a tonereader, though I weigh tone as a feature of mindset. And yeah, there's no manual for it. Also, I like mindmelds.

I mostly like Muh's catchup starting at 176. 178 raises my hackles a little because I've recently given scum towncred for not just giving the townie what they want since coming back from hiatus a couple months ago. I feel like I need to root this whole towntell out of my brain as a terrible idea.

Sorry for post spam, but when I reply I find it easier to manage one reply at a time.

My reads in no particular order

Neutral:
Everyone not listed below

Leaning Scum:
72OffSuit - For constantly nagging me
Egix - For lurking just as much as I am but still remaining mostly under the radar
Cylstar - Scum vibes from the Mizzy buddying. Also just as inactive as I am but not getting the same treatment as me.

I would vote 72 because OMGUS. But that won't gain much traction anyway, so I'll UNVOTE: C4and VOTE: Cylstar

This just sounds to me like you are keen to vote whoever you think will get wagoned

I was entertaining the idea of a cyl/muh team but this is making me doubt that.

What gave you that impression?

186 Muh has been giving me a self-aware vibe so far. Self awareness doesn't always equate to being overly concerned with how others are seeing one's behaviors. Maybe it's AI. I feel like it would be a weak signal of scum mindset.

Spoiler:

Just finished my first newbie game and it didn't go well. I threw. Town lost. Wouldn't recommend reading.

I skimmed it because someone I know was in it. You were okay.

Hunter's #84 reads is good. Follow up of what they were previously questioning Mizzy over. Questioning a town read off very little.

I mean, hunterr ended up townreading the same player off of very little as well, so I'm not sure about this one.

Cylstar's #95 is something I want to mention, just because I don't think anyone else did. Tone (as in being rude or whatever) isn't AI, I learnt that the hard way in my last game.

I wouldn't dismiss tone entirely, and there are some mad geniuses who can solve games off of tone, but there's no guidebook to tonereads.

Mizzy's #102 in response to 72's 94 mirros my reasoning so town cred there. #103 isn't something I agree with (them voting cyl off their #95) but disagreeing != scum.

Mindmeld reads ew

#111 from C4 is a bit weird. Seems a little OMGUSy but their reasoning for point 2 is similar to mine so town vibes here I think.

Not really seeing how it was OMGUS if Mizzy's post wasn't about me.

#119 from hunterr is weird. Townlock on C4 from a post that 1) disagrees with their own thoughts and 2) isn't super AI in any way.

Well you have plenty examples within this post of townreading posts you disagree with so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#135 by C4 is decent. I don't trust SE's so being cautious of them is good

Wonder why lol

What's so bad about mindmeld reads?

How heavily do you weigh mindmelds in your reads?

cylstar's 198 snapped a thought into focus for me. The confusion and hesitance feels natural, regardless of alignment, but I think some of these questions would have been asked in the Mafia pt if they are scum. Wasn't really scumreading them before, and should have thought this sooner. Maybe would have if I'd been participating/reading in real time.

202 Mizzy's post kind of shoots down my thought, but I want to keep it anyway. Faking newbness is a thing. It just doesn't feel fake to me.

219 lol I'm going to eat my words at this rate. cyl's "my reads, I guess" feel like she's intentionally playing into the newb vibe.

231 Case feels a little shallow, but thing that catches my eye is the rolleyes at JDye. I haven't gotten emotional vibes from earlier egix posts, and dinging a catchup wall is meh at best. JDye put down a good sized chunk of data for a slot that had been a cipher to that point in the game.

237 beating a dead horse.

VOTE: 72offsuit

Not been a fan of quite of few of their posts. Think their push for the mizzy wagon is founded on very little. For someone who found me not voting to be "concerning", I think it's a little hypocritical to have not moved their vote since post #64 and haven't given any sort of reasoning for other people to put their vote there. If they think mizzy is scum, shouldn't they try to push us to vote them?

@

72

, could you post a read list? You haven't really given your thoughts on anyone in the game other than mizzy.

Sure.

Town +++++++++++++ 72os

Not worth mentioning: cyl,egix, c4

Scumlean: Hunter/safebet, Bipolar/Dye, Mizzy, muh

Scum: GamblingPig

I'm probably not going to have time to meta before deadline, but I want to find out if this kind of reads list is typical.

Ok I think I might be hitting the JDye/72 section of the thread.

My wagons in order:

72
Muh
Apig

Muh is neutral for me... I could entertain a 72/muh scum team... but I could just as easily see muh as IRL busy and the activity until page 8 as NAI.

Safebet read muh as neutral but now they're their second favourite elim candidate? What's muh done to move them from neutral to above Pig for an elim? If you think it's 72/muh (don't really think we should be looking at game solves a this point) why not keep your vote on 72?

this post rings ALARM BELLS.

Starts off by talking about safebet in the third person, as if the post is pitched towards players other than safebet,
then switches to the second person perspective and refers directly to safebet.

Why does changing focus raise alarm bells

[JDye]

219 lol I'm going to eat my words at this rate. cyl's "my reads, I guess" feel like she's intentionally playing into the newb vibe.

This. This is the "thing I couldn't put my finger on" in one of my posts at the start of the day. I felt like she was playing up her newbiness at times and then going on to show she wasn't as new as she was acting. Idk. Struggled to mention it because it felt 1) paranoid and 2) a little rude (? Not the right word but it felt a bit scummy to accuse them). Little more confident on that if someone else is seeing something similar. Be interested to see what they think of the following posts.

[muh316]

137 Muh316 your phrasing here sounds like you expected multiple RVS votes. Did you think pushing you for lack of content was scummy?

It wasn't scummy, it was hypocritical coming from Egix who at the time was just as inactive as I was. Egix's inactivity could be seen as scummy but the push didn't feel like it.

[JDye]

little rude (? Not the right word but it felt a bit scummy to accuse them

Scummy in the regular sense not the Mafia sense btw. To police how a new player should act felt wrong. There isn't a limit to a newbies knowledge or play style so to suggest they were faking it doesn't seem right, especially since I'm a newbie too.

[muh316]

Kinda don't want to lynch ffery today given the value she's bringing to the game, though the slot (C4) is sus.

[JDye]

Kinda don't want to lynch ffery today given the value she's bringing to the game, though the slot (C4) is sus.

Can I interest you in a 72 wagon? A recent post of mine summarises most of what stands out to me.

[safebet222]

Kinda don't want to lynch ffery today given the value she's bringing to the game, though the slot (C4) is sus.

Can I interest you in a 72 wagon? A recent post of mine summarises most of what stands out to me.

Where am I a friggin car dealership?

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

I've been in bed with a headache most of today and I'm busy the next 4 hours so I've only really skimmed. I'll try and catch up before bed depending on how tired I feel. This is the stuff that stood out to me on a skim.


Based on the vote count at the top of the page (I know it's changed since), I would be very surprised if all 4 of those 2-vote wagons are on town. Scum have 4 different players to pick from there and it feels odd to me that they'd pick in a way that produces that split. It also makes JDye's decision note to vote his lowest read feel like it's less scummy unless muh-JDye is exactly the team. It's SO easy for scum to vote there, as a replacement coming in with new perspectives onto a player the momentum of the day is turning against. Not that I like the no voting, especially when it's leaving the old vote instead of an actual unvote.

Activity isn't necessarily an alignment tell. For Egix at least I can say I've seen them be low activity as town, and in a mish mash game I ran as a scum role that is specifically trying to look as town as possible (instead of town enough to get someone else elimmed). I might have read a game he was in as scum, but I don't remember one and I've definitely not been involved in one.

@muh - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically with my question about scum intent for the way you've lurked, just the general feel from the game as a whole turning in your direction. You were a good policy elim if that activity level continued but a policy elim in general is a last resort or a "oh god I don't want this in ELo".

My thoughts were people seemed to be scum reading you for it, and if you are strategically lurking as scum (as opposed to, y'know, busy) and you have a choice to pull yourself up when you get pressured, you do. You have to be genuinely busy or very confident in being able to pull off TSTBS otherwise.

However, no one feels town enough to you to even give a slight lean?

@AGamblingPig - that's a weird way to phrase something about a group of 3 you are included in. Why do you think that?

I'm a lowposter in general, really. But yeah, in the Secret H game I had no idea what to say most of the time :/

I've played with !scum and !town egix. Low energy, low posting for both alignments. Not particularly aggressive either.

what was your read of egix at this point?

Null

[72offsuit]

@ Fferyllt and spangled.

Thanks for replacing in, but do need reads lists asap.

[72offsuit]

Im seeing a lot of questions, not a lot of firms stances, despite 2 days of material, albeit w lurkfest.

[fferyllt]

Also, something that is bugging me but I dunno how to turn into scumhunting. From other town perspectives I should be one of the grosser votes on Pig. Middle is often where scum join from a VCA perspective, I showed some interest in moving off cyl cos it was an early vote intended to sort, but I didn't show my working on Pig before joining. I know I'm struggling to keep up with the game, was having some icky thoughts about Pig that I hadn't voiced super well and liked 72s case but you lot don't.

I just feel like someone should be giving me flack for it but I'm not sure what to make of the fact I'm not.

@JDye wrt cyl - because she's supposedly checked out from the game in apathy but the night action results have piqued her interest. Also floating mafia forgetting is kinda gross in general (it does happen occasionally but still...) but

that

is the sort of thing I am more willing to let go in a newbie game. If it is scum!cyl I would not be surprised in the slightest to learn that the scum cut it fine with getting their choice in last night tho.

I've read this post about 4 times. I think this always comes from town.

Also, something that is bugging me but I dunno how to turn into scumhunting. From other town perspectives I should be one of the grosser votes on Pig. Middle is often where scum join from a VCA perspective, I showed some interest in moving off cyl cos it was an early vote intended to sort, but I didn't show my working on Pig before joining. I know I'm struggling to keep up with the game, was having some icky thoughts about Pig that I hadn't voiced super well and liked 72s case but you lot don't.

If I understand correctly, you want us to scumread you for that? This post feels very LAMIST to me.

heh. I think I've seen a post like this in every game I've played/watched since coming back from hiatus. It's almost like coming up with the acronym made it so much easier to label posts this way, rather than explaining the concept each time, and in various ways. I wonder if the meaning is focused enough that it doesn't get applied more and more broadly over time.

I still think the post comes from town.

Mostly I like 72's reads bases on page 17-18. I'm not agreeing with all of it based on this initial readthrough, but the reads are internally consistent. This is kind of a surprise because I didn't like some of his day 1 input. There were quite a few hipshot quotes with a scum label on them during day 1.

Safebet is my most confident town read. I'd need to reconsider at endgame but he just sounds like he's putting lots of thought in to this game

72 I think is probably town. I don't think he needs to effort this much as scum

JDye sounds nice but I'm not as confident there. I think the way he joined the game is hard to do as scum but I need to iso and reread 72s case

I know I can't read players like Egix. I've found him a bit buddyish in the degree he's defended me but there's enough icky slots this game I'd prefer not to vote there today. If he is scum I would be surprised if his 3 scum reads is a legit rule of 3.

Cyl is the best policy elim as LHF but LHF tends to be town +rand and her apathy seems genuine

Nothing has particularly stood out to me about muh but his thoughts feel shallow and icky as the game progresses. Kinda uncomfortable with scum!muh not voting or efforting around deadline

I need to do another read here but my feelings about the slot are getting worse over the game. In particular he feels like someone trying to manipulate the game state and like he knows cyl's alignment and is trying to benefit from it. I don't think he's ever actually explained why cyl is town, just said its obvious and the people who don't see it are bad for not seeing it.


I guess this is more a where I want to vote list than a reads list. I would not be surprised to find out one scum is more in the middle here. Honestly my doubts about cyl and muh should make me less happy to vote there but I'm scared of how a final x situation handles having them around.

This feels hesitant and waffly in places but overall feels like a town mindset.