Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[Datisi]

Vote count 2.01

with 10 votes in play, it takes 6 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-01-13 23:45:00).

execution

Hayker [3]:

Dannflor

, Gamma Emerald, NoPowerOverMe

Not voting [7]:

Hayker, HeWhoSwims, Papa Zito, Elements, 2ndchosen1, Lunar Martian, Kazyan

mod notes

~ yeet

flavour

[Dannflor]

also uh look at the flip

[Dannflor]

I don't think this is real

[Kazyan]

Per Alchemist's post:

I crumbed in my very first post which is why I have reason to believe scum could have picked up on it and avoided my wagon.

Since he was bulletproof, if this breadcrumbed fake role had worked, he would have been shot during Night 1--and then Bulletproof would have negated that. The plan seemed to have been to make the Mafia waste their shot and then to detect who reacted to the breadcrumb before he made it public. This would explain his reluctance to state a role during the first E-1.

Either way, VOTE: Hayker.

[2ndchosen1]

I'll wait for PZ's thoughts, I'd like to hear them. If possible, I'll also wait on Kazyan.

A town doctor and a town machocop in the same game? Are you kidding me? I sincerely doubt such a setup would get cleared these days on this site. A town doc/cop combo can be powerful enough as is. I hammered for the obvious lie it was. How was I to expect it was a bad townie lie.

This is where I'm going to wish I had more experience on the site. How are power roles generally distributed? is the Macho cop/doctor combo to strong for most minis? I realize it's a closed setup but I'm unsure how the site balances. These questions are for Dann since he's only one that can give me a guaranteed town view.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Hayker

E-1

[Lunar Martian]

Is Macho different than what the Wiki says? The wiki says it means you can't be protected from kills. So it's weaker than a regular cop.

[2ndchosen1]

I get what Macho means, I'm just generally unsure on how many power roles go in a game.

[Hayker]

Haha i completely misread macho. Welll shit im gonna go laugh myself to sleep

[Dannflor]

Haha i completely misread macho. Welll shit im gonna go laugh myself to sleep

if you're town you need to be giving us a lot more effort right now

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

This is where I'm going to wish I had more experience on the site. How are power roles generally distributed? is the Macho cop/doctor combo to strong for most minis? I realize it's a closed setup but I'm unsure how the site balances. These questions are for Dann since he's only one that can give me a guaranteed town view.

It's not a particularly strong combo. I mean, having both a cop and a doctor is strong, but the cop being macho prevents the combination from being breakable. A macho role also generally indicates some kind of town protective role. In light of Alchemist's flip, Hayker's claim is less credible.

I'm also very suspect of town having a bulletproof townie, a JOAT with Penguin's Power (hehe), an innocent child, and ALSO a full ungated doctor.

Hayker, who did you protect last night?

[Dannflor]

I still think Hayker is suspect. To clarify, I unvoted because A. I want a chance for more people to spew this day phase, as it may or may not be the last time I'm alive in this game, and I have more things to say before I go. and B. I want the hammer.

[Hayker]

I protected you Dan. I did completely misread macho on the wiki. Would not have hammered him otherwise. I essentially read it as a BP modifier on cop and assumed it was an imppssible combo to let get into a game.

[Elements]

Upon going through Hayker's iso:

PenguinPower - 2 Confirmed town
Alchemist21 - 2 + V Confirmed town
HeWhoSwims - 0
NoPowerOverMe - 0
AGar ben dover123 - 2 Confirmed town
Papa Zito - 4 + V + TR
Elements - 6 + V
2ndchosen1 - 0
Dannflor - 1 Confirmed town
Gamma Emerald - 1/2
Lunar Martian - 1
Kazyan - 4 + V

The only progression on anyone is Papa Zito from voting in RVS to a town read due to meta from [over a decade ago].
Pushed me the entire day without rlly looking at anyone else until the Alch wagon.

13p so 2/3 maf, I'm leaning three given the flips so far + vig shot.
Given the associations here I'd be looking in [NPOM, HeWhoSwims, 2ndchosen1, Gamma] as partners

[Papa Zito]

In a world where the Doc claim is true, we should see one of Hayker / Dannflor dead. Doctor removes the scumteam's most powerful tool. A mod-confirmed townie who's still invested can't get anywhere near endgame. These are both things you must remove. To not do so is an enormous risk.

HOWEVER - you also know the doc is going to autoprotect the confirmed townie. There are no other claims on the table, no reason to protect elsewhere. Since you know where the protect lies, you're free to shoot any other target and be guaranteed a hit. Who knows, you might even hit something important. Additionally, the town is already suspect of the doc claim (by virtue of the slot and as stated in thread). It's possible to get a mislynch there and let the town do the work for you.

If the Doc is fake then they get rid of the confirmed townie. Fake doc naturally gets lynched the next day. How does the team avoid this? By shooting elsewhere, obviously, leaving the same dilemma on the board for the town the next day.

I think both scenarios are valid.


I need to do a deeper dive on isos today and look at how the wagons shifted and who went where. There's no reason to rush a vote.

[Papa Zito]

@Hayker:
In your hammer post, you stated:

I Don't think both a doc and a

bp cop

are in the same game.

(emphasis mine) So the BP confusion was present yesterday before the hammer.


However

I protected you Dan. I did completely misread macho

on the wiki

. Would not have hammered him otherwise. I essentially read it as a BP modifier on cop and assumed it was an imppssible combo to let get into a game.

(again, emphasis mine) The Macho entry on the Wiki is extremely short, and explicit.

Macho is a role modifier that prevents players from being protected from kills in any way.

The modifier was first developed as a way to neutralise Follow the Cop strategies that exist in Cop/Doctor set-ups, preventing the Cop from gaining the Doctor's protection. Macho Cop is still the most common role associated with this modifier, but other roles have used it for balance and design reasons.

There's no way to "misread" this. It states blatantly that the modifier means the cop can't be protected. There's no mention of the term "bulletproof" anywhere and there's no way to misread this as such.

Unless you'd care to explain.

[Hayker]

@Hayker:
In your hammer post, you stated:

I Don't think both a doc and a

bp cop

are in the same game.

(emphasis mine) So the BP confusion was present yesterday before the hammer.


However

I protected you Dan. I did completely misread macho

on the wiki

. Would not have hammered him otherwise. I essentially read it as a BP modifier on cop and assumed it was an imppssible combo to let get into a game.

(again, emphasis mine) The Macho entry on the Wiki is extremely short, and explicit.

Macho is a role modifier that prevents players from being protected from kills in any way.

The modifier was first developed as a way to neutralise Follow the Cop strategies that exist in Cop/Doctor set-ups, preventing the Cop from gaining the Doctor's protection. Macho Cop is still the most common role associated with this modifier, but other roles have used it for balance and design reasons.

There's no way to "misread" this. It states blatantly that the modifier means the cop can't be protected. There's no mention of the term "bulletproof" anywhere and there's no way to misread this as such.

Unless you'd care to explain.

Macho is a role modifier that prevents players from being protected from kills in any way.

I know the senyence I misread was this one. Not sure exactly where the wire crossed but this was it

[NoPowerOverMe]

This could just be a role madness game, right?

[Kazyan]

I await PZ's deeper dive to figure out where the WIFOM went.

In addition to the three confirmed townie roles and the doctor claim, there's also the vigilante. Role madness is sort of plausible at that point, but wouldn't there be more Night actions going off if that were the case?

[NoPowerOverMe]

Maybe the pr's just don't want to announce yet.

[2ndchosen1]

It still doesn't help with the "misread" and I'm going to continue to wait for as much info as I can look at to come out.

[NoPowerOverMe]

Well, no one asked you to? Unless you have a hard guilty claiming early only helps scum and even then it sometimes helps to wait.

[Papa Zito]

Height of Alchemist wagon 1 (at 655)
Alchemist21 [6]: 2ndchosen1, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Lunar Martian, Elements, Gamma Emerald
Kazyan [2]: Papa Zito, Alchemist21
Hayker [2]: AGar, Kazyan
PenguinPower [1]: NoPowerOverMe
NoPowerOverMe [1]: HeWhoSwims
Elements [1]: Hayker

Kazyan threatened hammer in 664. Alchemist refused to claim in 680.


Dannflor swaps to Hayker in 684.
NPOM swaps in 691 without adding anything.
Penguin naked votes in 701
Elements naked votes in post]706[/post]


Alchemist21 [3]: 2ndchosen1, Lunar Martian, Gamma Emerald
Hayker [6]: AGar, Kazyan, Dannflor, NoPowerOverMe, PenguinPower, Elements
Kazyan [3]: Papa Zito, Alchemist21, Hayker
NoPowerOverMe [1]: HeWhoSwims

Lunar and 2nd weren't in the thread in the meantime

Dannflor says we don't hammer doc claims in 712 then revotes Alchemist in 715
Elements naked votes Alchemist in 718
PenguinPower sheeps in 720


Alchemist21 [6]: 2ndchosen1, Lunar Martian, Gamma Emerald, Dannflor, Elements, PenguinPower
Hayker [3]: AGar, Kazyan, NoPowerOverMe
Kazyan [3]: Papa Zito, Alchemist21, Hayker
NoPowerOverMe [1]: HeWhoSwims

Alchemist claims in 723
Hayker hammers in 727

...

I'm frustrated because NPOM, Elements and Penguin were very clearly just sheeping along with the IC. I can't really derive anything from that.

[Papa Zito]

This IC stuff is really screwing with things. It's too easy for people to just shadow one person.