Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[Datisi]

Vote count 3.01

with 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to make a decision. day 3 ends in (expired on 2021-01-22 12:30:00).

execution

2ndchosen1 [2]:

Kazyan, unwnd

unwnd [1]:

Elements

Not voting [4]:

northsidegal, 2ndchosen1,

Dannflor

, Lunar Martian

mod notes

~ yeet

flavour

[Dannflor]

Please hold off on putting anyone within hammer range for a while

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: elements

[2ndchosen1]

@Dann, According to the wiki there is a Normal variant of Serial Killer. so possible?

Your first post indicates extensive experience with him, yet you remained kinda passive towards his claim and everything else going on. Why?

While my demeanor is certainly passive I don't necessarily see how my play has been. D1, I was the first vote on Alch, due to him not fully reading one of Dann's posts where he asked dann a question. Afterwards, I was immediately concerned about D1 call of Doctor but didn't move my vote as you don't vote doc. That bit of hesitance moved over onto D2 due to a Dann rebuke. In addition, I thought it might be beneficial to try and hear out what people would say about the what ifs as it could lead to other thought processes. I also find it strange that the self hammer came as I announced intent to hammer and not on the other E-1s and am trying to think of why.

2ndchosen1's posts look really safe and inoffensive to me--even when he disagrees with someone, the points are more the vein of providing nuance/completeness than 'you are wrong because of reasons'. This makes me think he might be the jailkeeper laying low.

As for "Nuance" I'm not doing IIoA as I do list my conclusions and reasonings in my posts. As for completeness, I would rather hear someone's thoughts to completion as to make a better judgement and as such provide what I think to completion as much as I can in my posts, to the point that I quote or put post number so that my posts are easier to context in ISO, especially since I'm not regularly on. Considering the lack of questions on my stuff until now, I'd like to think I accomplish that.
as for not pushing stuff see below

i would like to hear people's thoughts on the merits of a massclaim today

HWS also wanted to try and role fish, but this has me super uncomfortable and again the only reasoning I see for this is help Mafia target their Night Kills, especially as Kazyan pointed out, mass role claiming wouldn't exactly help right now.

i wouldn't just throw some plan to benefit scum out with no reasoning and then back down the instant someone says "i disagree". i think that my progression there really only makes sense as genuine, and my lack of elaboration was deliberate.

But that's what you did? The immediate call and dismissal of the idea when one person shot it down. There was vague reasoning in the post, and I don't think getting kazyan to disagree with you on that is enough.


HWS/NSG Scumread - calls for role fishing on HWS and nsg now, NSG even said I'm "pocketing" by simply providing analysis in 1022 which seems a subtle way of buddying town.
Elements Scumread - Odd interactions with Hayker, purposely tries to obscure voting intentions,
LM Scumread - Oddly certain of his reads despite being wrong on 2/3 in 907, immediately jumps on NSG train based on reads alone in 949 trying to insert credibility to inactive member?

VOTE: northsidegal

[northsidegal]

HWS/NSG Scumread - calls for role fishing on HWS and nsg now, NSG even said I'm "pocketing" by simply providing analysis in 1022 which seems a subtle way of buddying town.

this is an either incredibly mistaken or incredibly dishonest reading of what i said in 1022. i said that a post like 536 was "the perfect way to pocket me because..." as a way of saying that i really like that style of post.

considering the fact that i

was not in the game

at the time of 536, implying that that comment was me saying that you're pocketing me seems incredibly silly.

[northsidegal]

and, again, on the "role fishing", i'd point you to 1142. i may not be great at scum but i am certainly not stupid, and stupid is what i would have to be in order for that to be me "role fishing" as scum.

and no, serial killers are not possible in a mini normal.

[Dannflor]

for the record, I have also been pondering the merits of a mass claim today

[Kazyan]

This also feels like Mafia throwing out an idea that would benefit them, and then backing off immediately when the idea gets shut down.

i think that your understanding of the way that scum plays is flawed. you also assume—and i say this while knowing full well that i am not very good at scum—that i am an absolutely

terrible

player. i'm not stupid. if i were scum proposing some idea to benefit me as scum, i wouldn't propose it without any sort of at least plausible justification. i wouldn't just throw some plan to benefit scum out with no reasoning and then back down the instant someone says "i disagree". i think that my progression there really only makes sense as genuine, and my lack of elaboration was deliberate.

and, again, on the "role fishing", i'd point you to 1142. i may not be great at scum but i am certainly not stupid, and stupid is what i would have to be in order for that to be me "role fishing" as scum.

This line of argument isn't convincing. "You're accusing me of a bad move, but I don't make bad moves" is some seriously weak tea.

for the record, I have also been pondering the merits of a mass claim today

My dude. Why.

As for "Nuance" I'm not doing IIoA as I do list my conclusions and reasonings in my posts. As for completeness, I would rather hear someone's thoughts to completion as to make a better judgement and as such provide what I think to completion as much as I can in my posts, to the point that I quote or put post number so that my posts are easier to context in ISO, especially since I'm not regularly on. Considering the lack of questions on my stuff until now, I'd like to think I accomplish that.
as for not pushing stuff see below

Hm. I'm not fully convinced, but this explanation seems okay on the surface.

[Dannflor]

My dude. Why.

because getting another confirmed townie for today is tempting, especially when it may be worthwhile for the vig to holster tonight anyway

there are enough benefits that I find it a bit silly to say it is scummy for NSG to openly consider

[northsidegal]

This line of argument isn't convincing. "You're accusing me of a bad move, but I don't make bad moves" is some seriously weak tea.

No, not especially. Something similar

could

be applied (fallaciously) in almost any scenario, where someone accuses you of something scummy and you claim that you're so good at scum that you would never do that. The thing is that in some (and perhaps a lot of) cases that argument is actually correct. For instance, I would never level the accusation against RadiantCowbells (a well known proficient player as town and scum) that because he hasn't really talked about someone else, that person is probably his partner. That sort of argument might apply more to newbie scum players, but RC is pretty much above that level.

It might sound like I'm starting to get pretty arrogant here, so let me return pretty specifically to what lunar said regarding me. He said that my asking for people's thoughts on a massclaim and then agreeing with someone else that it's a bad idea "feels like Mafia throwing out an idea that would benefit them, and then backing off immediately when the idea gets shut down."

My point is that this argument doesn't make sense for

anyone

except the most amateur players. It relies on, literally taking his words exactly, me as a member of the mafia proposing an idea that would benefit me as scum and then immediately backing down when someone just disagrees. I wouldn't play like that.

Most people

don't play like that. If I, or indeed most anyone, had some plan that I thought would benefit me as scum, I would try to come up with some plausible argument for it, and then if someone pushed back I would make those arguments. I am, as I hope you can see, capable of engaging people in arguments, and so the idea that as scum I would just back down from something seem not grounded in reality.

Essentially, the narrative that lunar proposed is inconsistent with aspects of how almost anyone plays, whereas the actual reality of me just changing my mind makes a lot more sense, because that's what actually happened. It's more about consistency rather than any sort of claim that "i'm too good to make mistakes".

[northsidegal]

I am, as I hope you can see, capable of engaging people in arguments, and so the idea that as scum I would just back down from

some plan I've constructed to benefit the scumteam

seem not grounded in reality.

[Lunar Martian]

There's a reason I didn't continue to pressure northside. It's interesting that Kazyan is piggybacking off of me to continue the pressure there.

[Dannflor]

Oh shit

I think I just realized why Agar was killed

[northsidegal]

well don't leave us waiting

[northsidegal]

in terms of his reads i think i had these quoted earlier today but my computer crashed before i posted them

Would love to yeet within {Hayker/NPOM/LM} today.

No desire to yeet within {PZ/GE/Alch/Elements} today.

{PP/Kazyan/Swims/Chosen} don't feel like flips where they'd give enough information as currently constructed, but there is likely some scumbag in there.

VOTE: Hayker

[Dannflor]

HWS/NSG Scumread - calls for role fishing on HWS and nsg now, NSG even said I'm "pocketing" by simply providing analysis in 1022 which seems a subtle way of buddying town.

What does the fact that I was thinking along the same lines as NSG and NSG's explanation about the 2nd half of this do to this read, 2ndchosen?

[Dannflor]

NSG, how are you reading the NPOM/unwnd slot now?

[northsidegal]

NSG, how are you reading the NPOM/unwnd slot now?

the gamma townflip obviously means that i need to consider other candidates although i would still consider him as probably townier than other slots

i

think

that my ~reasons~ for townreading the slot are probably still valid. i did a quick look back at the end of day one with the extra flip information we had and i also think that there npom's actions still seem to hold up decently, although i do want to do just a more comprehensive read-through with the extra info. also, as i type this now i wonder whether i should be uncomfortable with how much of my read is really based on npom and how little of it seems to be based on unwnd. not sure.

[unwnd]

I take more than slight offense that it is not based on me more

Being a bit lazy in some aspects but I'll pick it up tommorow

[northsidegal]

i think that just in general i find npom probably an easier player to evaluate than you. and that isn't even necessarily based on both of you as players, because it is the case that i've looked at what i think is npom's one and only scumgame whereas i have yet to actually do any meta on you (which i probably should)

[northsidegal]

if you'd like to help me townread you it would be a massive help if you could give as long or as short of an explanation as you want as to why you think you're playing your towngame this game and how you think your town and scum metas are meaningfully different (if they are)

i don't expect this or anything, you don't have to if you don't want to and i already lean on you being town more than other slots but it genuinely would help me a lot.

[Dannflor]

I just find elements' quest to eliminate unwnd extremely weird. It feels unnatural from both a scum or town perspective. I've been trying to figure out if it feels so forced because its coming from a forced bus situation but... I don't know if that entirely holds water.

There's also the fact that I'm still alive. Yes, we can assume scum want to keep their jailkeeper since they know a vig is looking for them. But I feel if I was threatening enough to the team, I would certainly not still be alive on Day 3. My reads have definitely shifted quite a lot from day to day, but the fact I'm still alive has me reconsidering the reads I've held all game. Really, the only read I've consistently upheld since D1 is my town read on the NPOM/unwnd slot, which became my strongest town read defacto after Agar was killed. I had this thought that maybe Agar was killed not only because he was town read, but because it would confirm one of my top reads as correct and subtly reinforce my NPOM read... which it did. There's also the little thing of Agar having NPOM in his scum reads. I also started trying to consider this world more seriously after realizing there was some stuff about unwnd's posting today I didn't like.

But anyway, we also have stuff like this:

ben

and

dann

are heavy townreads.

Alchemist

and

Gamma

are light townreads.

Elements

is a scumread.

which like, is pretty heavy for so early D1. In fact, if those two were partners they'd essentially be hard bussing since the start of the game. I don't know how much sense that makes. It makes more sense after Hayker gets run up but not so much as early as they went after each other.

For some reason considering this makes me want to reconsider elements as just town that's playing really wonky, because the NPOM push is so weird and hard to parse. And I feel like the most off kilter things come from town more often? Maybe that's a faulty assumption.

I dunno. I'm playing mafia way too late at night for this to be properly coherent. I just also realized that my town read on unwnd specifically was oddly vacuous as well, so I started to consider worlds where he might be scum.

But all of this to also say that I also still think the slot is townier than other slots mostly because of NPOM, I just can't help but wonder if elements' weird push and my still being alive means that maybe I've been wrong on that slot. I think there's something about unwnd's posting specifically that has me paranoid but I can't quite figure out what exactly that is.

[northsidegal]

i do agree that, assuming elements is scum, npom's reads there are notable for their accuracy. can't comment right now on the other associations, i'll take a look tomorrow

[unwnd]

if you'd like to help me townread you it would be a massive help if you could give as long or as short of an explanation as you want as to why you think you're playing your towngame this game and how you think your town and scum metas are meaningfully different (if they are)

i don't expect this or anything, you don't have to if you don't want to and i already lean on you being town more than other slots but it genuinely would help me a lot.

I'm willing to entertain it. I don't think it's personally scummy to defend yourself or uphold a status. I find a lot of the time you actually see a good amount of fake humbleness from scum who are afraid to defend themselves. As for why this is my towngame, it's because to be blunt I actually give a shit about what's going on. As scum, I spend too much time postulating and end up doing nothing with it. I consider this to be a bit of rust in some departments but it's not fully encompassing. It actually kinda annoys me to some extent that I keep reading NPOM was obvtown when I've been putting in a decent amount of work to uphold my own stature. That in itself should be telling enough, because if you guys were just townreading NPOM, why would I go out of my way to tarnish that with less-than-perfect play? That's another tell of my scumgame, where I make way less errors as the backspace key is always on my keyboard.

[unwnd]

I really believe in the timing and necessity of posts. I'm very much a player who is trying to figure out the gamestate instead of individual tells, even if I use them for a foundation. This is just the way I prefer to play the game. I'm always considering what is happening in front of me, but it only means so much. This is why I posed the questions I did and approached the game in the matter I have when I replaced, because such reads are only of value in the split second it's created. Let me explain: I believe that we're not immutable people. I believe it is not inherently scummy to change your mind. It all requires intent, and some kind of specificity. I'm not really satisfied in just saying 'this guy is scum', I want to pinpoint the exact instance of what you were thinking, why you did it, and how you did it. That basically just breaks down what makes this game fun for me and you can read that part however you want.