TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[Super]

I’m doing the rest of my ISO now after I took some time away to clear my head a bit, I’m going to try and not get too heated. I also have decided I wanna give everyone a cute nickname in the thread, Lilith was my first ISO already and I might quickly just add a little synopsis of my conclusion of them here so my reads are all together and it helps people find my thoughts easier.

Lilith – aka Lilly

Null-Leaning Maybe Town

- I ended up basically just having Lilith as a null read, there were reasons for me to town-read them but honestly their lack of actual scum-hunting and high-focus on Auro kinda made me a bit anxious of my original gut TR. After properly ISOing them I think I just really need to see where their head is at with their reads and Lilly if you’re reading this please read my ISO of you cos I asked some stuff that I want you to respond to but take your time. There was definitely a post directed at Auro which I townread early on and Gira and Jess both have a light townread on this slot but Jess didn’t elaborate that much so I don’t know why she townreads Lilly but anyways I just need Lilly to add some more content! I just think she dropped off a bit after my original read

FireBringer – aka Firb

Town

-

I had a pretty early town-lean on FireBringer because of the way they entered the thread complaining about the setup, I mentioned this with my team and said that I thought the fact they entered the thread kinda negatively was a risky thing to do as scum cos why would they wanna draw so much attention to themselves? Gira (petapan) told me because they were already complaining pre-game that this was likely NAI for them though so I slightly pushed the read aside.

I asked Firebringer what alignment they preferred because I was curious if maybe because they also flipped scum maybe that’s also why they were miserable about the setup (I love being town and kinda just assume everyone else does too) and in post #17 they say they prefer being scum which IMO made me kinda town-lean them in that moment too cos would they really be that complainy and miserable if they flipped scum in the setup they already disliked? (and scum was their fav alignment) obviously this isn’t the strongest read ever but it definitely was something I was thinking about. I like Firebringer’s response in their #19 post as well – I asked them whether they’d be happier if they flipped scum and they were like “probably but black flag still sucks” which felt like such a genuine response idk lol

Something about firebringer’s general vibe is just towny to me. Their first few posts are just so goddamn chill and it’s such a vibe that I just can’t help but think they’re town because of how laid back they are and how they just don’t seem to give a fuck.

#88 is also pretty towny imo, FB just saying their mission is to make someone paranoid is just…. Again, they do not give any fucks what people think of their slot and I townread them for it.

#108 is another post from FB that I like – they out that they townread Koba (even though they were voting them to kinda defend me early on which imo is such a way to get to my heart lmao) and they say they aren’t going to unvote though because they want people to still be paranoid of them – I just really don’t see scum being like this

#439 lol I kinda love how FB just does not give a shit that their posts aren’t very game-solvey or useful/they’re just kinda memeing – a lot of their posts overall are just filler tbh but for some reason I just really don’t see scum being like this at all. I don’t know FB and I don’t know if they are like this as scum but their tone and the way they are playing kinda fits in with how I think this person would play if they were in a setup they hated and were also town lmao

I just think FB is town at the moment and I feel pretty comfortable in this read

Autumn Leaves – aka Leafy

Town

-

Even though I find Leafy to be tonally… kinda scummy idk… I kinda like them? I kinda like the weird read they have on Amy (Amph) because it would be such a weird thing for scum to be using as a read IMO. Like why would scum be saying someone’s posts would be cool if they were scum and that means they are scum… like what the fuck sort of reasoning is that for a read? Lmao it’s almost too crazy to come from scum IMO.

#288 probably not partnered with flopz

#298 I liked this post from them but when I keep reading it I’m finding reasons to TR them for it and SR them for it so maybe I am just crazy and shouldn’t even keep this in my ISO, but fuck it. Idk it kinda feels like they genuinely did read Amph’s post and think that about them – I guess I believe them?

#328 lol I kinda tr this post

Ohhhh so as I’m reading Leafy’s ISO I found a post which I read at the time and townread but had forgotten about it – I liked the way that when I was questioning Koba’s push on me and trying to figure out if Koba was genuinely trying to read me or not that Leafy was trying to reassure me that Koba was town and I feel like Leafy wouldn’t be trying to reassure me of a read on someone and instead probably wouldn’t say anything if they were wanting the argument between Koba and I to keep going (I feel like scum would want us to be tunneling each other this game to derail the thread/stop any proper scumhunting to be happening from koba and I). so the fact Leafy said in post #381 that they had a pretty strong TR on Koba it kinda makes me just think Leafy is town – unless Koba and Leafy are partnered but I doubt it

#401 I like this post from Leafy – seems genuine

#503 fuck okay I really TR Leafy here and this has probably jumped my town-lean up a lot. I vibe completely with the feeling they have about not playing as optimally when scumread as town and that’s exactly how I have felt with Koba’s push on me but I’m choosing to ignore it and just find mafia cos fuck koba. Honestly this post is just so damn genuine and I TR it pretty hard.

Auro – aka Oreo

Leaning Town

-

I like that Oreo immediately enters the thread with a townread on me but I am very wary of being pocketed here but damn it’s hard not to TR someone for instantly saying they like you lmao

I also really like Oreo’s reason for townreading me in post #42

I like Oreo’s questioning of Lilly and it felt like Oreo was genuinely trying to figure out where Lilly stood on their read on me (trying to read into Lilly)

I doubt Lilly/Oreo are partnered based on their early interactions

I like that when Leafy posted #503 Oreo also noticed it was towny and unvoted in response – it feels like we had a similar read on Leafy from that post which makes me think Oreo could very much also be town. I also really kinda vibe with Oreo’s tone this game and just vibe with their overall attitude, I can quote the posts I liked generally but it’s getting late and I kinda just wanna get through everyone and out my reads so I can sleep, I’m worried I’m getting too many townreads through my ISOing since I already TR Firb/Leafy/Oreo and Lilly is null/could be town so hopefully I’m not townreading people too easily this game :S

Chennisden – aka Chen-Chen

Leaning Town –

I haven’t really read much of Chen-Chen so I don’t have an immediate read on them before doing their ISO but as I’m reading it now I like post #174 of their ISO (their intro didn’t really give me any read on them tbh) – I like their read on Oreo here in this post though, feels like a natural and genuine take on the Oreo slot
#309 – another post from Chen-Chen that I like even if they italicise A LOT lmao, their posts before this one are good too (292 and 293) hopefully I’m not just bias of these posts because they out a TR on me but I kinda vibe with their reads here and now I’m worried again that I have too many townread fml if I think Chen-Chen is also town @_@ omg also I am reading Chen’s ISO AND FLOPZ LITERALLY CALLED CHEN-CHEN, CHEN-CHEN AS WELL AND I MADE IT UP WITHOUT EVEN SEEING FLOPZ CALL THEM THAT – lmao I feel happy now that Flopz has a similar name for them hehehhe

#466 - oh I never actually saw Chen-Chen explain their read on that one post I made and I kinda townread their reasoning here cos I can see why they tonally would read my post there as scummy tbh and me also being a tonal reader completely gets it

I’m kinda curious about what happened to Chen-Chen’s original townread on me cos the progression does feel a little off… in the 292 and 293 posts they had me as town and then later on they started saying they didn’t really have me as a strong TR or actively were townreading me? I dunno I kinda wanna know their full thoughts on my slot to understand their progression here better, like why did you initially TR me Chen-Chen and what made it fall? Was it that one awkward post of mine?

I like that Chen-Chen went out of their way to read my EM games and kinda defended me against Koba there and I doubt scum!Chen-Chen (I’m just assuming) would wanna try derailing the tunnel Koba has on me and instead probably wouldn’t comment on it or try and argue them about it, idk. I am leaning town on Chen-Chen tbh after this ISO (I can sense I’mma be yelled at already for having too many townreads but yolo)

[Super]

Flopz – aka Floppy

Leaning town don’t hate me for tring so many people please

Ugh so…. I actually hate myself for reading through Floppy’s ISO and again feeling as though I townread a player and I’m feeling like ISOing people is doing me no good and I’m better at getting reads in real time (whenever I ISO a player I always just start townreading them and this is a problem I’m starting to realise within myself). I really like Floppy’s questioning of players – in particular Leafy/Koba/Chen-Chen – I also think their interactions with Koba made me town-lean Koba even more in particular (Koba was going on about Floppy relying too heavily on their partner’s reads and Koba had a similar reaction to scumreading me and I think honestly it’s a bad reason to SR someone but Koba even having these reads and them being so consistent feels towny to me – I know this is a Floppy ISO but I just wanted to point that out now cos it’s in my head currently). I like everything I’ve seen from Floppy so far basically and I’m not going to go into every post like the others because it’s almost 11pm and I need to sleep soon and need to get this done

Johnny – aka Jar Jar

Null

Honestly not really enough to have a read on – his ISO is small and nothing really sticks out to me as scummy or towny except maybe the fact that they didn’t know the game started (scum would be talking right?) but that’s probably NAI idk, I think mafia would be potentially try-harding more though and their posts don’t seem very…. Effort-y (lol) so yeah I have no idea what to feel about this slot. They should also explain the reads they posted in post #264

I have two more ISOs (Koba and Amy/AMph and I’m probably going to just not do Koba out of spite for now and I’m tired so they can literally just wait cos bleep bleep)

Amph aka Amy

– I’m just going to say there isn’t enough for me here to get a solid read on and I’m going to have to go and read the hydra game I played with her to get some sort of meta I think – her opening wasn’t terrible and her reads were OK but she dropped off and hasn’t said much since so I don’t really know where to place her at the moment, kinda hoping she’s town only cos we were town together in the MU game but meh idk. Just gonna say she’s a nullread for now
Based on all of this I’m going to list who I think is towniest to least – I think Firby in general has lowered since I have townreads on others after my ISO and I think I have better reasons to TR them than I do for Firby? Idk I’m definitely misreading people this game and have probably townread people way too easily like fucking typical normal me

[Super]

I literally just went to skim my ISO that I had just done to really think about how I’d rank them and noticed one of Firb’s posts and immediately was townreading them again lmao

Ok fuck it here is my gun to head towniest to least list:
Koba
Leafy
Firb
Chen-Chen
Flopz
Oreo
Lilly
Amph
Johnny

[Super]

I’m definitely wrong here I feel and it’s early on so I’m not going to completely hate myself if my reads are totally shit but I definitely don’t feel very confident in the reads I have since I feel like I’m townreading a lot of people too easily and it irks me a lot

[Super]

Hopefully this helps y’all understand some of my thought-processes. I still need to properly ISO Koba even though I do think they are probably just town – I probably could move them away from being my top TR if they continue to tunnel me and never reconsider their read on me because they actually full tunneled me when they were scum in a game and I kinda don’t wanna let them get away with doing that again – although I have more reasons to TR them this game than that one from memory but I might have to go back and read it. I will explain my read on them properly tomorrow anyways, I’m sleepy, gnight sorry that this is a bit long

[Super]

I broke up the posts cos the entire thing kept breaking so sorry for the spam it wouldn't let me add it all together rip

[Super]

before I sleep I want to say my strongest town reads right now are probably Firebringer/Autumn Leaves/Koba

after some thought and rereading what I just posted I'm thinking I'd probably swap Chen-Chen with Flopz so my PoE would probably be something like lilith/oreo/chen-chen/amph/johnny

don't hold me to these reads though since it's early on/I have no meta on anyone/everyone talks like they are an english major /I'm likely townreading people too easily

goodnight

[Flopz]

FireBringer – aka Firb

Town

-

#439 lol I kinda love how FB just does not give a shit that their posts aren’t very game-solvey or useful/they’re just kinda memeing – a lot of their posts overall are just filler tbh but for some reason I just really don’t see scum being like this at all. I don’t know FB and I don’t know if they are like this as scum but their tone and the way they are playing kinda fits in with how I think this person would play if they were in a setup they hated and were also town lmao

Thanks for doing a readslist, I feel like there are too many players trying to coast here and some effortposting is always good to see.

I wanted to ask you more about your fire read, I recently subscribed to a "Charging at coasters/lurkers" newsletter so am looking for the juiciest target atm. Why does doing nothing strike you as so Townie, like I can understand the aloofness, showing they don't care about the game as much which is arguably a more townie mindset but is that enough for you to rate them so high when they really haven't exactly done much else?

Btw, to link a post, you just type in the number of the post, highlight it and then click to post button on the right side of the preview screen (near the smilies).

[Flopz]

as a fellow spammer

Can you give me some things to work with lad, I don't want this game to devolve into more pulling teeth then it has already. Who do you think are acting the most scummy atm? Also have your views changed on AL changed?

[Flopz]

Johnny, I just went through your ISO and you're basically just screaming Null. I need

moooooooore

.

Can you throw a cheeky bit of substance my way.

Are you still SRing Chen and Koba or have those changed now? Also, what's your view on the others you haven't talked about yet, it's interesting that you don't have a view on AL or Auro yet so would like to explore that further.

[Flopz]

Woah, also congrats on the kid. Missed that the last time I saw your posts.

[Flopz]

Looking through the posts after I went to bed yesterday, I think I'm reasonably comfortable with a TownKoba read.

Koba seems to be continuing their "I'm right, I have all the answers and I'm not sharing them with anyone, everyone else is below me" shtick which everyone whose had the pleasure to play with them will know and love. This is a nightless game Koba, please actually work with us and not try to solve the game on your own becuase that doesn't help anyone.

I would like to ask is if anyone else has experience with their scum-game and if there are any differences in play-style becuase from what I've seen this looks the same to their previous town game with me.

[Auro]

Super, I'm looking forward to a response to my earlier posts, I think you missed them. Also can you give me a link to your games on EM?

Spoiler: rant

(Probably personal taste or I'm used to MS but I reaaaaally hate the Epic Mafia UI, all the games at the side of your profile seem to be marathon ones, and even in individual forum games there's no ISOs, and people have image signatures that take up more space than their posts and gahhh)

Fire where be Norwe's reads

[Autumn Leaves]

Koba feels quite different to their scumgame, they tend to be more LAMISTy and don't really do tunnels on UTRs from what I've seen. Maybe they've gotten good at manipulating their meta, but the gut feeling is hard to manipulate and that's the main reason I TR koba.

I've gotten some input from my teammates. Kanna is also comfortable with a koba TR, and uncrowned still thinks koba is scummy. Kanna and uncrowned share my suspicions of auro, which I'm still paranoid might be wrong, but w/e. Uncrowned agrees, and thinks that auro is asking a lot of busywork questions and not coming to many solid conclusions. Kanna is saying not to trust super, which makes me paranoid, then I read super's posts and I stop being paranoid. Uncrowned still thinks super is town and will likely be easy to sort later on if not (@koba is this true? I sorta like waiting until ELo to sort super). Neither kanna nor uncrowned liked flopz's push on me, with Uncrowned saying that one of flopz and koba is scum. Uncrowned pointed out that flopz's recent posts trying to get koba to cooperate looked town though. He didn't like that flopz SRed amph's and johnny's entrances, it looked surface level. Uncrowned also thinks fb could be scum by PoE. Uncrowned liked amph's reason to SR me and didn't think scum would take that angle. He thought chenn's towncase on super was very towny (I must have missed this?) and he's worried about lilith's activity dropping off.

@Auro: Why did you SR chenn originally, and what changed your mind? You never really talked about your reasons.

[Auro]

I was hoping for Kanna's inputs and I'm quite surprised at her read on me; could you ask her to explain it?

It is true I don't have many solid conclusions , but if you're concerned about the rationale behind specific questions of mine I'd be happy to talk about them.

Re: Chennis, I felt that Chennis was attempting to tunnel me in bad faith and make attacks without really *engaging* with me while avoiding my own attempts at conversation to some part. I also disliked the content of the attack itself because I thought he was a little familiar with my play. Eventually, and on revision I could see it as a genuine sequence (there was a hint of exasperation that I wouldn't feel scum would have in that position, the general factor that this is a common concern people seem to find with me, progression towards uncertainty when there was thread momentum building against me)

[Autumn Leaves]

Kanna says she doesn't feel like you were being straightforward, I'll ask her what she means exactly.

The thing that confuses me is why you didn't out your SR on chenn right away. Presumably, if he's scum, he'll be able to guess that his SR on you is likely to be a part of your SR on him. What did you think would happen if you outed the read? And why didn't you out the read when you retracted the SR, especially since I had asked you about the read earlier? It felt like you were being unnecessarily cagey because you didn't have strong reasons to SR chenn in the first place. I'd expect town to out their reads by default for the sake of transparency, unless you're koba.

[Auro]

Do ask Kanna if she recalls a lack of straightforwardness from her experience alongside scum!me.

They weren't strong reasons, and were subject to change based on how it further progressed; and I usually don't state a scumread on someone when I'm about to start a line of conversation with them. As to why I was reticent to explain, I felt that it could affect his responses (or at least make conclusions less reliable) and I wanted it to lead somewhere first. I forgot to come back to your question about my reasoning when I retracted.

[Autumn Leaves]

UNVOTE: and you did talk a bit about your reasons for SRing chenn when you retracted the read. Oops

Something feels off about this game, I'm gonna try talking to people until I figure out what it is.

[Autumn Leaves]

Ftr, ydrasse has spectated a bunch of super games and thinks she's town here.

[Autumn Leaves]

Auro, kanna says that she doesn't know you very well and she's confused why you were interested in her read in particular. She agrees with uncrowned's assessment and thinks you've been beating around the bush in some of your posts. She's unsure why you think she could read you well because her only experience with you, you were scum together.

[Super]

can you explain what your question meant to me Oreo? I saw it and didn't get it and just focused on doing my reads instead last night

[Super]

also ya I'll link some of my games I'm just gonna sleep a little longer and do it once I'm on my laptop

also Floppy, I do think doing nothing and low effort is something to be wary of but I think it's the attitude that FB has alongside that and their attitude which I'm townreading mostly- like would scum really just not care and be this way? obviously if they just kept chasing like that until late game I'm always going to reconsider my read, just right now I have this feeling they are town

I do think you being concerned of this and of Johnny too isn't bad though

[Super]

who is this Kanna person and why are they paranoid of me?

[Super]

Ftr, ydrasse has spectated a bunch of super games and thinks she's town here.

what games have they spectated? and why do they think I'm town?

[Super]

coasting like that***