TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[Menalque]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

Because a not insignificant part of mafia is just getting votes on the people you want

If you can make a scumread top wagon there’s a good chance you get their flip if you can sustain that wagon

And the only real way of seeing pressure is when it’s backed by votes

In this case I also find it interesting that it’s proving very hard to get even a moderate wagon going on infinity in a game where mechanically bussing is v disincentivised

[Flopz]

I don’t know why they wouldn’t just do that as Town then and try to push in a Townie direction if they believe they can so easily take over the thread.

What do you make of his explanation of why he’s playing the way he is over the last like 2 pages?

Hmmm, it feel genuine to me I think. Like if he was gonna make something up there must be an easier way to do it, that's where I'm leaning rn.

[chennisden]

I feel that Chenn + Infinity just seem too together this game, especially looking back through the game. With both agreeing together quite often and from both sides.

I also found this fact quite interesting. Note to self: Look at this more later

Anyway in general I think "both are scum" is too strong a claim to make, particularly when other explanations can exist: is one buddying the other? Etc

[chennisden]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

Because a not insignificant part of mafia is just getting votes on the people you want

If you can make a scumread top wagon there’s a good chance you get their flip if you can sustain that wagon

And the only real way of seeing pressure is when it’s backed by votes

In this case I also find it interesting that it’s proving very hard to get even a moderate wagon going on infinity in a game where mechanically bussing is v disincentivised

But ur not gonna get votes on ppl that way

[Menalque]

@flopz what do you think the implication for others’ alignments is if infinity!scum? What about if infinity!town?

[DkKoba]

Why is koba /not/ a keystone slot to you?

Even though Koba slot is important, I dont actually feel like I can get a lot of leeway or make progress on said slot atm

What does keystone mean

[Menalque]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

Because a not insignificant part of mafia is just getting votes on the people you want

If you can make a scumread top wagon there’s a good chance you get their flip if you can sustain that wagon

And the only real way of seeing pressure is when it’s backed by votes

In this case I also find it interesting that it’s proving very hard to get even a moderate wagon going on infinity in a game where mechanically bussing is v disincentivised

But ur not gonna get votes on ppl that way

You’d be surprised how much just asking people repeatedly can do in terms of getting votes

[chennisden]

1849 will help

[Flopz]

I feel that Chenn + Infinity just seem too together this game, especially looking back through the game. With both agreeing together quite often and from both sides.

I also found this fact quite interesting. Note to self: Look at this more later

Anyway in general I think "both are scum" is too strong a claim to make, particularly when other explanations can exist: is one buddying the other? Etc

Which is true, it's why I'm only focussing really on you and Menal's slot rn as I feel you are more likely scum than your possible partners.

[Menalque]

Alternatively, if they won’t vote, you get something by forcing them to take a firm stance on /why/ they won’t vote

[chennisden]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

Because a not insignificant part of mafia is just getting votes on the people you want

If you can make a scumread top wagon there’s a good chance you get their flip if you can sustain that wagon

And the only real way of seeing pressure is when it’s backed by votes

In this case I also find it interesting that it’s proving very hard to get even a moderate wagon going on infinity in a game where mechanically bussing is v disincentivised

But ur not gonna get votes on ppl that way

You’d be surprised how much just asking people repeatedly can do in terms of getting votes

I mean, at least personally, it feels really insincere, like you're trying to get someone to do what YOU want instead of trying to communicate

[Autumn Leaves]

Mena, is there a reason you think I'm scum besides that I have a strong SR on you out of the gate? It doesn't feel like you're trying to accurately sort me, and it doesn't feel like you're exercising any caution wrt my slot despite talking about how you were wrong about me last time. Especially because you're upset at koba for not being cautious around you in the same way.

I'm not really sure why people are talking about a me/chenn team, like wouldn't that be too obvious? The reasons we have agreed on so much are in the thread, from the time we both SRed auro early on, to the time we both had paranoia and were re-evaluating lots of reads at the same time. I considered that he could be pocketing me, but I think it's more likely we're just both town and have come to similar conclusions about the game.

[Menalque]

I feel that Chenn + Infinity just seem too together this game, especially looking back through the game. With both agreeing together quite often and from both sides.

I also found this fact quite interesting. Note to self: Look at this more later

Anyway in general I think "both are scum" is too strong a claim to make, particularly when other explanations can exist: is one buddying the other? Etc

Which is true, it's why I'm only focussing really on you and Menal's slot rn as I feel you are more likely scum than your possible partners.

Not sure I get why

[Menalque]

Lili how about voting infinity in the meantime while there’s not a lot else going on

I have to say I'm curious, why do people try to get other people to vote their wagon when said other person clearly is undecided/uninterested

Doesnt it seem counterproductive

Because a not insignificant part of mafia is just getting votes on the people you want

If you can make a scumread top wagon there’s a good chance you get their flip if you can sustain that wagon

And the only real way of seeing pressure is when it’s backed by votes

In this case I also find it interesting that it’s proving very hard to get even a moderate wagon going on infinity in a game where mechanically bussing is v disincentivised

But ur not gonna get votes on ppl that way

You’d be surprised how much just asking people repeatedly can do in terms of getting votes

I mean, at least personally, it feels really insincere, like you're trying to get someone to do what YOU want instead of trying to communicate

Yes, that is correct, when I ask people to vote for someone I am trying to get them to do what I want

[Autumn Leaves]

just in my car about to drive but realised autumn has a player on their team that knows me

autumn what's ydrasse's read on me?

Last thing ydrasse said about you was that she was doubting her TR on you. I feel like my teammates don't really have enough time to keep up with the game properly so are trusting my reads to some extent, or are at least influenced by my reads a lot. But I will take into account her first instinct which was that you were town.

[Flopz]

@flopz what do you think the implication for others’ alignments is if infinity!scum? What about if infinity!town?

I feel if Infinity is scum, then it's more likely for Chenn to be scum due to associations. Tho if Infinity is Town I feel like at least one of you and Super are scum for your pushes towards them, this will also make Auro more townie as Auro's Super push was based on their reaction to Infinity. Also makes FB more townie as fire has been pretty accomodating to Infinity's "hot takes".

[Menalque]

Mena, is there a reason you think I'm scum besides that I have a strong SR on you out of the gate? It doesn't feel like you're trying to accurately sort me, and it doesn't feel like you're exercising any caution wrt my slot despite talking about how you were wrong about me last time. Especially because you're upset at koba for not being cautious around you in the same way.

I'm not really sure why people are talking about a me/chenn team, like wouldn't that be too obvious? The reasons we have agreed on so much are in the thread, from the time we both SRed auro early on, to the time we both had paranoia and were re-evaluating lots of reads at the same time. I considered that he could be pocketing me, but I think it's more likely we're just both town and have come to similar conclusions about the game.

I mean it’s not just that you’re scumreading me it’s that I made a fair effort (i think) to try to engage you about that read and where it was coming from and I think you avoided that and tried to justify your approach to me by saying “well yeah I am kinda treating you in bad faith but it’s because I’m p confident ur scum” and I think u having that level of confidence about my slot is v unnatural based on what I/my predecessor posted by that point

I also think that my attempt to engage with you off the bat /was/ very indicative of me taking a different approach to you to last game, but again, it’s your reaction to that and lack of desire to try to sort me that is ++scum especially after we managed to get to very strong correct townreads on each other last time

Also nah I don’t think so, a you/chenn team being too obv is just wine, and so long as we get a scumflip on you early then I think it’s a lot of +EV to be had from just getting rid of the wine by elimming the other one too

[chennisden]

@Flopz I dont really think I agree/understand the last bit because scum can position themselves in multiple places and it's definitely possible fb/super scum would position themselves like that

[Menalque]

@flopz what do you think the implication for others’ alignments is if infinity!scum? What about if infinity!town?

I feel if Infinity is scum, then it's more likely for Chenn to be scum due to associations. Tho if Infinity is Town I feel like at least one of you and Super are scum for your pushes towards them, this will also make Auro more townie as Auro's Super push was based on their reaction to Infinity. Also makes FB more townie as fire has been pretty accomodating to Infinity's "hot takes".

So if you would get all this info from an infinity flip one way or the other why would it be better to vote me or chenn fypov?

[chennisden]

Whole good cop bad cop deal

[Firebringer]

Whole good cop bad cop deal

i want to tbe the bad cop tho

SUPER NEEDS TO TRADE

[lilith2013]

I honestly cry a bit at every flopz post and if he’s town, I’m struggling to see why

n o o n e

is pushing him

[chennisden]

Talk about this in scum PT instead with your scumteam of Waterbringer and Earthbringer

[Flopz]

As an aside, I think that I’m now happy with an Auro TR, I like his progression through the game, especially with him hounding players to get a better undertstanding of them (e.g Amp, AL) and in a genuine way.

Through his interactions with Lilithm I felt that he wasn’t trying to be overly pedantic and was just having a conversation in his own way.

In regard to his current read on me, I think I can understand where he’s coming from here as while in my mind I was just waiting for the lurkers to post their reads after I pushed them, I wasn’t doing too much else at the same time so I can see what he means

Auro, I’d like to ask if Xtomx also agrees with your current view on me or does he still TR me?

[Flopz]

Just wanted to get that post out there because I kept getting sidetracked