Sunny 2: Rules of Im-peachment - Over!

[Morning Tweet]

Pink Ball's SB Case

Over-reliance on team

I think there is merit to the argument that scum may abuse their teammates for reads in order to absolve themself of responsibility and also get more unbiased perspectives on the game. In the posts you quoted, i suppose Kanna is somewhat guilty of this -- but it mostly just seems like she keeps quoting Infinity on Murder. If Infinity is a Murder-guru then i suppose it is plausible, this isn't super strong because it's just one incident dragged out over multiple posts

Following over leading

The way she approaches the game is by throwing an empty statement that makes you believe that she's working on her reads, and follows up by using someone else's insights to position herself as the original insight was of her own/create an insight based on someone else's. There's only one post where SpringBreeze shows us what she's thinking about the game instead of her teammates, and I have decomposed it to show you what's going on:

i think this is a way better point and Kanna's posts that are linked afterwards are more by-the-numbers ideas of posts you'd think to fake as scum -- "I agree with X", "I don't like X", "Feels out of place", stuff that isn't hard to come up with. In my previous game with Kanna i attacked her for a little while at first but she became obviously town as a result of a huge initiative she took casing another player and the interactions she had with them because of it

Pocketing Pooky, specifically the "I hope you're town" thing

I don't think Kanna really has to even try to pocket Pooky but maybe he himself is making that clear already lol. i get your point that she starts from a place where she is town and implies that pooky needs to prove he's town to her, but im not convinced she'd be more likely to do that as scum. She could forge a hard TR for random soul reasons and he would believe it, although maybe that would look kinda of bad/obvious i guess to people other than Pooky

I'm interested in the Zaiden progression you noted and id like to look at that more

Let's go lads. I'm down to take out these simpathisers.

VOTE: Spring Breeze

@SpringBreeze, why did you vote me when I didn't have a chance to defend myself and why are you encouraging simping?

of course you post like this ofcourse. i wonder if hectic doesn’t have friends and instead has an army of clones

was your first part serious at all? i must admit i am only 97% fluent in hectic. what’s your reason for voting me?

Feel like Zaiden kinda explained the vote in the post lol

murder, infinity wants to you start obvtowning so he can townlock you!

I'm just chillin til Titus tells me who the scum are tbh

better be fast! infinity machine will beat you to it!

zaiden/cheetory are the worst votes on me; would still like to hear from zaiden about it if he hasn't forgotten about me! cheetory's feels like plain omgus and terrible, but i must admit i have a lot of emotions right now with that &_&

right, so we haven't explained what's bad about Zaiden and i dont believe they've spoken between these

VOTE: zaiden i guess i dislike your vote on me the most.

reconsidering cheetory. i like his good faith to me and his haphazard randomness is quite townie. uncrowned also started reading the game and said he felt the same pings on midway early on and that hard push would probably be what he did if he was here.

speaking of midway, i agree with the townreads. i have little meta, but he's a strong PURE read for me. even his latest posts where he says his hot take of gamma town and then voting him 2 posts later. scum... probably don't do that

Still not really a lot

fairly sure zaiden plays like this regardless of alignment because he's from hectic/hopkirk's team and they're all fun people/it's a team gimmick. it's hard to read though because i feel like it allows him to make weird moves/reads. i have been skimming his posts a little, i'll reread them in a bit

p-edit: what do you mean "you don't want it to happen this early"?

I think this is in response to Cakes' defense and it's just whatever still

If you feel that I'm not being transparent with you at any point, feel free to call me out and I'll try to get better

i mean transparently because you seem to be holding a few cards against your chest with me. and to be transparent myself, i feel like in this playerlist, i think scum are more likely to push me, because i'm not blatant lhf so it doesn't look terrible, but i'm pretty easy to push. so if you could spill your thoughts on me if you still want me at the end of the day, that'll be great, okay? and engage with me if you're really trying to sort me please!

i reread the zaiden posts, and is it bad i want to townread him cause he's fun? however a lot of his reads aren't clicking for me although i'm not sure how to express this properly. not a fan at how he hedged around me. i'd be interested to see more from him and how he answers cheetory's questions

It's still pretty vague

fairly sure cheetory is town now. zaiden, less so, but i'd like to believe he is. not sure what questions he has on me/pooky that are being ignored, i'd be happy to answer them @zaiden

Yeah and here's the turning point where it became a lot more clear Zaiden wasn't going to be dying

i would say that Kanna had Zaiden as her #1 or close by virtue of the vote although even though she was comparatively pretty hard onto him, she didnt really substantiate it with anything. The only things I can see are actually tinfoiling him as town or saying she wants to TR there. and maybe that explains why she lets off of him, but ehnnn i just dont see anything that would indicate her heart was actually there. Maybe thats a result of not reading deeply at the time but its certainly not good considering i think Zaiden is town and that particular interaction definitely cut off scum's hopes for a miselim there, but she still sort of has to adjust for having such a "hard" scumread there by slowly moving him upwards. Idk if its unfair to expect more from her on Zaiden but yea

im running low on time, Jingle vote doesnt have much behind it either yeah, Pink Ball read is also pretty eh

Overall I think theres no good reason to townread Kanna from her progressions on Zaiden/Jingle and i think it particular its very possible Zaiden was an expected push that was gonna go thru for scum so i think theres a lot of merit to her progression on him being bad. i also do think if Kanna is town i can probably figure it out since i usually start off suspecting her -> a townread when she's town. i think that the Pooky pocketing point as well as overrelying on Infinity is less good but Kanna generally not leading anything and instead quoting to comment/follow is a decent one

bom bom bom

[Morning Tweet]

so why are we talking about it now?

Because Murder wants to gamesolve so that if he's killed tonight he still gets a high score for the event.

Apparently no one else realized there was a survey, despite me literally bringing that up when Cakez and Noraa asked me about how aggressively I was pushing my reads.

I think it's +town equity for murder, given that I don't think scumMurder would think to fake that concern, but I've been tr-ing Murder all day anyway, so...

yes and also generally playing to solve like it's your last day alive is exhausting esp if you have to be wrong a lot and know ur never gonna actually die

[Something_Smart]

Well for what it's worth, I would like to give Pooky the benefit of the doubt on his soulread. Pooky, you said you've never been wrong on a soulread-- how many times have you been

right

? How many times have you faked a soulread as scum?

[Gypyx]

Spring Breeze

Don't have a read on them rn, i have a vague memory of a scumlean on them, but not rlly up to date, i'll take a peek at the Iso if you want

[Pink Ball]

@Morning there are more examples on relying on infinity after the "point of inflection" that I didn't quote if you want to see if she's quoting infinity only about Murder (she isn't), but good catch nonetheless

[Pink Ball]

Spring Breeze

Don't have a read on them rn, i have a vague memory of a scumlean on them, but not rlly up to date, i'll take a peek at the Iso if you want

How about you read the very first post on page 80? I think there's something related to Spring Breeze there that is relevant to the gamestate right now

[Morning Tweet]

Well for what it's worth, I would like to give Pooky the benefit of the doubt on his soulread. Pooky, you said you've never been wrong on a soulread-- how many times have you been

right

? How many times have you faked a soulread as scum?

thats the strongest pro Kanna argument cause theey have this thing where its morally wrong to deceive each other (yes i know this is being unfair) that i do not understand

@Morning there are more examples on relying on infinity after the "point of inflection" that I didn't quote if you want to see if she's quoting infinity only about Murder (she isn't), but good catch nonetheless

Ok sweet

[Something_Smart]

theey have this thing where its morally wrong to deceive each other

That feels like a trust tell/failure to play to wincon if true. So Occam's razor says it isn't.

[MURDERSUNNY]

If Infinity is a Murder-guru then i suppose it is plausible

He is

[Pink Ball]

theey have this thing where its morally wrong to deceive each other

That feels like a trust tell/failure to play to wincon if true. So Occam's razor says it isn't.

That's what I was thinking. To me it's just a matter of time that one of them is scum and this thing stop working/being a 100% thing.

[Morning Tweet]

not a legit trust tell no just a soul vibey method where they can tell if the other is being genuine, i didnt mean to portray it like that

[Something_Smart]

Yeah actually. Have the two of Pooky/Kanna played a game where they were different alignments? What happened?

[SirCakez]

I townread you in the trials where you were actually pretty stand out compared to the rest of the game. Like i dont think i wavered on that at all and that was in a game with >50% of the playerlist being LHF/not playing

i do not townread you in this game and you're more similar to Royalty although i understand that royalty might not be how you always are as scum. However cakes watching you in Tenet and observing that you are playing similarly gives me the impression that perhaps you are just much more active as town

i think the confusion is that im saying i townread your performance *in that game*, im not townreading you here *because of that game*

Gypyx and Pooky both brought up that their scumplay in Tenet was unusual for them because of the crazy setup and because they were being heavily coached by their scumteam. So I no longer want to use the meta from that games as a point.
Although I do want to keep in mind that I think Gypyx's reaction to bringing it up was not great. Specifically, the point where he said "it was my town meta because I was playing like my town game" is just so bad and illogical.

[Jingle]

Also, SB hasn't said anything at all since the case, so maybe it's wise to wait and see on her response to PB and PB instead of putting things out into the thread for her to use to defend herself.

On, the other hand, Now that we're done talking about PB for a moment, I'd like to focus on J.

Jake, what particularly don't you understand about what's happening? There's like 6 different conversations right now and I find it odd that you're not interested in weighing in on any of them. Well, not odd, really. More annoying.

[SirCakez]

@Cakez, you've answered a few of the questions I'd had. However, I'm not convinced by the 'meta shift' argument because I would have assumed it's in town's best interest to remain consistent with their town meta, especially in something like a team mafia game where more is on the line. Or are you trying to say that your development as a player is completely separate from meta altogether? Although I'm in agreement of Gypyx being a scumread I'm not following your progression for why Gypyx is scum. Could you elaborate on the overlaps between TENET (which I didn't play in) and this game? To the person who said this game is different from TENET - how different and would it disqualify any comparison to this game?

I'm not deliberately trying to shift my meta to obfuscate reads on me. I am just changing as a player in response to how past games have gone for me.
See my previous post for Tenet stuff.

With S_S, I also don't think scum would outright admit 'This is how I would act as scum'. And I don't think scum would readily admit to that or rail so hard against Cakez in such a public way. I'm townleaning S_S here.

Why not?

I highly disagree and I think this is kind of an odd assessment of that post. If anything it's pretty scummy because not being able to trace reads makes it sound like Gypyx was faking them.

It happens to me a lot, because I don't keep notes. The towny part is admitting it instead of just making something up.

Maybe.

wtf is going on rn

Isn't there some kind of wiki thing that says this kind of post is usually from scum?
Either way I'm calling it scummy. Kinda LAMIST in that it's like "oh I'm here and so confused!"
Gamma is sliding towards nullscum.

so why are we talking about it now?

Because Murder wants to gamesolve so that if he's killed tonight he still gets a high score for the event.

Apparently no one else realized there was a survey, despite me literally bringing that up when Cakez and Noraa asked me about how aggressively I was pushing my reads.

I think it's +town equity for murder, given that I don't think scumMurder would think to fake that concern, but I've been tr-ing Murder all day anyway, so...

Jingle is scum but I concur with this assessment of Murder.

GAH I can't shake the feeling that jingle is scum. Something just feels off. Idk what to do about it!
*throws up hands*

You can have a gutread Noraa that's ok.

[SirCakez]

Who is the Infinity that people keep mentioning?

[Noraa]

Who is the Infinity that people keep mentioning?

THE MOST AMAZINGEST

[midwaybear]

You can refer to the team list. Infinity 324.

[SirCakez]

@Murder these are some of the posts that provoked my nulltown Spring Breeze read. Where she actually did some scumhunting and nothing pinged me the other way.

i really like spf so far; her deductions have been really good. unless i need to rethink, i think she's just town. agree with the noraa read and jake read.

i got the opposite impression from this exchange - it stood out to me that above all else, cheetory's primary concern was making sure that his reasoning was properly understood. i feel like people playing from a scum mindset are more likely to capitulate to people criticizing their reasoning, but cheetory's main reaction was just to get genuinely frustrated that their reasoning was being misinterperted and misframed.

this type of emotional concern over the particulars of their reasoning is town!indicative, imo. gth i don't think that scum has that level of emotional investment into having their specific reasoning validated

disagree here though, cheetory's posts felt pretty out of place with gypyx's responses. feels like he was putting on a show. disagree about scum not caring enough to be understood as well, everyone wants to be understood, don't they? and scum never want to be caught out for the wrong reasons.

Spring breeze's posting is still pretty scummy

in what way?

On reread they don't look as bad but they look fakeable in light of the bad entrance

not liking this progression
you must've read my posts and something must've pinged you for you to say this. what happened to that? and i'm curious what you think is bad about my opening posts in your own words

@spring

can I get a read on PrivateI from you?

their line on me was the worst thing they posted, but other than that, nullish. i'm curious to see how they'll respond!

VOTE: zaiden i guess i dislike your vote on me the most.

reconsidering cheetory. i like his good faith to me and his haphazard randomness is quite townie. uncrowned also started reading the game and said he felt the same pings on midway early on and that hard push would probably be what he did if he was here.

speaking of midway, i agree with the townreads. i have little meta, but he's a strong PURE read for me. even his latest posts where he says his hot take of gamma town and then voting him 2 posts later. scum... probably don't do that

fairly sure zaiden plays like this regardless of alignment because he's from hectic/hopkirk's team and they're all fun people/it's a team gimmick. it's hard to read though because i feel like it allows him to make weird moves/reads. i have been skimming his posts a little, i'll reread them in a bit

p-edit: what do you mean "you don't want it to happen this early"?

fairly sure cheetory is town now. zaiden, less so, but i'd like to believe he is. not sure what questions he has on me/pooky that are being ignored, i'd be happy to answer them

@zaiden

804 not a fan of jingle's noraa case. very nitpicky > finding things that are scum-indicative, feels like. and it ends with a "Seems pretty obv to me that she's just making shit up to see what sticks." which reads unnecessarily overconfident.

What game was this?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84671

If you're looking for scum Noraa meta, Ari pointed me at MafiaSunny for a stronger game and Booneytoonz14 for a weaker game. I would pull up a link, but I'm being lazy atm.

also did not like this, feel like he's using past games to look credible, but i'm not sure what his actual point with noraa is other than she might be good as scum

These are just some examples, I don't want to make a massive wall. But there ya go.

[SirCakez]

You can refer to the team list. Infinity 324.

Ok so they are on SB's team.

[SirCakez]

I think Pooky's read might be a little biased.

i have literally never been wrong on a soul read in 17 years of playing on this site

my read rate on kanna is 100%, my read rate on ydrasse/isis/hectic is 100%.(I mis-read Hectic once as scum when he was town but that was more from paranoia than anything else - I don't miss on townside reads)

I do not miss.

This is I think points more towards SB and Pooky both being scum here.

[Pink Ball]

uncrowned also started reading the game and said he felt the same pings on midway early on and that hard push would probably be what he did if he was here.

ydrasse also dropped in and told me omgus'ing/townreading people feels like town!noraa energy. i feel good about that too

infinity just said he agrees with me on the read that he doesn't know what scum!pooky is doing here. his play is a bit like one night stand (our last game with all three of us) now that i think of it

infinity also said i haven't expressed his opinions in the way they should be, and he sees noraa's towny soul. he feels good about it

i asked infinity about his noraa soulread and he said something like scum!noraa does things specifically to get townread while town!noraa probably spews whatever even if it might not look good. this in particular is pretty heartsong, as isis would say

Kanna just sucks at reading me generally so I'm weirded out that she's right but I'm waiting on her reply to that atm.

not sure what you want me to reply to? my teammates think you're town and after discussing with them, i agreed.

- noraa i think is town. she's actually playing very similar to a game i hard scumread her in and she was town. this is also one of the reads infinity feels really good about so i am locking in
- spf; my teammate infinity says he mindmelds with her a lot, and i agree she's had good takes, but i don't think she's towntold enough for a townread.
- murdersunny; i have seen murdercat in other games though and he generally has a lot to say. the fact he's popped in a few times and said he's had nothing to say/nothing is happening feels strange because i almost feel like he wouldn't be able to contain his opinions as town if he's town. the change in playstyle is leantown, but it also lets him get away with not offering opinions. i'm fully open to looking at his case though

This are all quotes about her teammates making her reads instead of her own, after the "point of inflection". The read about SPF is atrociously fencesitty. The funny thing is, and that's why I'm leaving it there, her read on murdersunny is based on her own read of the game, when she relied on infinity's read on him all the time. That's not hers', that's inifinity's job and she's taking the credit now that she has established something meaningful.

my team hasn't been around for this game

Also I wanted to end the

The Last Dance

section with this quote but I forgot, thanks for the second opportunity.

[SirCakez]

Maria/Jingle/SB/Pooky?
I'm wilding out here.
How do Gypyx and SS fit into this puzzle?

[Pink Ball]

I fucked up again the format for fucks sake

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jake, what particularly don't you understand about what's happening? There's like 6 different conversations right now and I find it odd that you're not interested in weighing in on any of them. Well, not odd, really. More annoying.

Exactly. 6 overlapping convos is confusing.