TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[lilith2013]

thanks for the posts joqiza!

re: koba I agree, which is why I said a while ago that koba was “probably town but I didn’t want to townread them.” I think they have elements to their playstyle that are like scummy regardless of alignment, like that they have an agenda or sometimes an ass-backwards view of the game but it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

Can you explain the differentiation between the first null group and second a bit more? Johnny was also reluctant to join a wagon on infinity, so what sets him apart from chennis/fb/auro?

[lilith2013]

can you explain what you found genuine about 1069[/post?

[lilith2013]

oops. 1069

[lilith2013]

okay gonna do my best to parse mena/super vs infinity. I’m probably going to do a quicker pass through now and a longer one tomorrow. I mostly don’t feel like getting out of bed to get to a computer atm.... sorry

[lilith2013]

@aurk can you explain how infinity and chennis have partner equity?

[Autumn Leaves]

Let's take a universe for a second, where we're both town. Let's add Mena and Lilith as town to this universe, too, since I believe you townread them both. Who would you look at as scum in this universe, of the remaining slots? Who would be your top suspect(s), and why?

I get that this is probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but the answer is "some combination of everyone else". I feel like I have weak reasons to townread a bunch of people in {flopz, johnny, chenn, auro}, but none of them stand out as particularly more or less likely to be scum fmpov, as I've been reconsidering my chenn read lately. I do think fire is town, I thought about his read on me and I think he was really trying to get in my head, and the way he was arguing with mena about whether I'm scum felt like he was trying to sort things out for himself when he wasn't sure, which felt genuine. Kanna is catching up with the game so I'll see what she thinks.

[Auro]

It's somewhat of a lazy take, but I feel like Chen's been trying to divert from the AL elim - pushes on multiple slots but no real conviction.

[Auro]

Interesting, AL: you'd be willing to vote Chen?

[Autumn Leaves]

Oh, and I have played with scum!flopz before, and he would've had to up with scumgame to be scum here, but it's possible. I also felt that way meta'ing him the last time I played against scum!him though. I'm gonna try to map out who I think is less likely to be partners later today, and maybe that will help give me clarity. (Also I forgot about koba but I think they're town, my gut tends to be accurate for reading koba. Kanna has koba at locktown.)

PEdit: possibly yeah.

[lilith2013]

my initial reaction to infinity expressing doubts about super and super then jumping on infinity is that I think they’re both being reasonable

infinity doesn’t seem to really scumread super that hard, just more discussing the possibility that there is a deepwolf, I guess the only line here that super was able to jump on was infinity saying that he’d vote super

if

a super wagon appeared. I still don’t really think that’s unreasonable though. I think this is really similar to the discussions we’ve been having recently about like, koba, so I don’t think this is scummy.

I think that viewing super’s reaction through somewhat of a nancy lens makes her response understandable too - she sees someone suspicious of her and is so frustrated with someone not townreading her that she overreacts, when the original premise wasn’t actually someone scumreading her. Probably town-indicative but again I really don’t like that as a site our response to any emotional outburst is “oh that’s town, they wouldn’t fake being this upset as scum”

[Auro]

I think that viewing super’s reaction through somewhat of a nancy lens makes her response understandable too

The interesting part was that Super's own reaction was fine ("you better not make enemies with me *wink wink* let's converse later") but her

team

then scumread AL very strongly, which she then began to believe as well.

[lilith2013]

What do you think it says about her slot then?

[Auro]

That was a major part of my push on Super , however, you'll find my updated thoughts on the slot on the previous page.

[Auro]

Flopz and maybe Johnny need prods?

[lilith2013]

yes they do

@mod can we get prods please

[lilith2013]

I think you can see a hint of what her eventual reaction will be in 1333, I agree it wasn’t great that she didn’t say her team worked her up so much, but I think her reaction would have been similar anyway. Just maybe not so aggressive.

[lilith2013]

That was a major part of my push on Super , however, you'll find my updated thoughts on the slot on the previous page.

can you link me? can’t find

[Autumn Leaves]

Ok ydrasse gave me some high thoughts last night so let me try to paraphrase

The reason she said mena was scumclaiming was during his interaction with super or koba or something (?), he felt overly aggressive to the point of being mean-spirited. She also TRed him when he started being toxic, which she told me not to mention but I already said I started TRing mena then so /shrug

She thinks koba is town

She thinks super was being pockety at some point (?) but she's not sure she SRs that slot

She feels like chenn is trying to set himself up in a good position rather than scumhunt, which is entirely a vibe read. Earlier I would disagree with this strongly but I guess I can kinda see it?

Johnny/flopz are other slots she suspects

Wrt the super stuff, I'm convinced that progression is either towny or scummy and I can't decide which

No matter what solve I come to in the game, something feels off about it

[Auro]

Are we forbidden from talking about replacements in TM?

Primary reasoning is that I don't have the drive to push through, secondary is that I think AL has +scum equity because Super!slot has +town equity for reasons, third is that Chen-AL do seem to have some partner equity.

Are we forbidden from talking about replacements in TM?

Generally speaking, it's theoretically optimal for a team needing a town replacement to find someone extremely easy to read~

[Auro]

he felt overly aggressive to the point of being mean-spirited. She also TRed him when he started being toxic,

What's the difference between toxicity and "overly aggressive to the point of being mean-spirited"? Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Auro]

I think you can see a hint of what her eventual reaction will be in 1333, I agree it wasn’t great that she didn’t say her team worked her up so much, but I think her reaction would have been similar anyway. Just maybe not so aggressive.

You're evaluating her team's perspective from what you assume Super's personal Nancy-esque response would be though, isn't that inaccurate?

[Autumn Leaves]

I didn't paraphrase that well, I think she initially felt that mena was being aggressive in a game sense not a personal one. I'm interpreting it kinda like how some scum get really aggressive in Elo, when they just need one more mislim and can taste victory

[lilith2013]

I think you can see a hint of what her eventual reaction will be in 1333, I agree it wasn’t great that she didn’t say her team worked her up so much, but I think her reaction would have been similar anyway. Just maybe not so aggressive.

You're evaluating her team's perspective from what you assume Super's personal Nancy-esque response would be though, isn't that inaccurate?

I think she would have reacted similarly anyway, because that post is a precursor to her going after him. the lag in actually going after him seems to be because she was at work. I think her team’s response probably got her more emotional about it but I don’t know/think if that really changed what her reaction would have been like. Are you suggesting that she faked an emotional response and pinning it on her teammates?

[lilith2013]

Are we forbidden from talking about replacements in TM?

Primary reasoning is that I don't have the drive to push through, secondary is that I think AL has +scum equity because Super!slot has +town equity for reasons, third is that Chen-AL do seem to have some partner equity.

Are we forbidden from talking about replacements in TM?

Generally speaking, it's theoretically optimal for a team needing a town replacement to find someone extremely easy to read~

I don’t really understand what this means

[lilith2013]

I think you can see a hint of what her eventual reaction will be in 1333, I agree it wasn’t great that she didn’t say her team worked her up so much, but I think her reaction would have been similar anyway. Just maybe not so aggressive.

You're evaluating her team's perspective from what you assume Super's personal Nancy-esque response would be though, isn't that inaccurate?

Are your questions because you think super is being scummy and are trying to convince me of that or because you’re trying to sort me?