Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[petapan]

against my better judgment i am here

[petapan]

shoot me so i can hipfire it, i see no downsides to this plan

[petapan]

haven't read at all save for the last few pages around the shot because i was aware i might need to sub in

will do so today




if i feel like it

[petapan]

okay give me the gun, tammy dies next for that sass

[petapan]

actually my first game on this account was one where i replaced into a scum slot, funny enough

sadly i don't have that luxury here

[petapan]

tammy did you legitimately scumread the guy with 4 posts

[petapan]

Woohoo!

VOTE: RLotus

Why is hardly anyone putting out an RVS vote *Thinking Emoji* even if we can't vote someone out? It's never really the point of RVS to vote someone out anyway, so we can look at where people put their votes just like any other game and hopefully get some information out of that. Right now we know one person is town, but I don't think we can ever have two people alive at the same time who we know are both town. There is only one mafia kill for the whole game. We should take advantage of any sources of information we can find because there aren't a lot of the usual ones for us to use.

how was this not instantly shot

[petapan]

The concern with voting in this setup is that the town has very little agency to begin with. Only one person has /any/ power, and we know they are town, so we should trust them to have town's back. Now, leashing shots to votes sounds great in theory. After all, it just puts us roughly at "ordinary mafia game", with a final adjudicator. In practice, however, it gives the scum team agency they shouldn't have, and takes away one major town-sided element the gunbearer gives us.

The exclusive advantage that the town has in a setup like this over an ordinary Mafia game is that it avoids the ironclad law of committees being absolute hot fucking garbage at actually performing tasks well. (This law is so ironclad that it's a major component of managerial level sabotage: you load important committees with more than IIRC 8 people, and ensure that at least one of them is dead weight, and nothing will ever get done, ever ever ever.)

Instead of /everyone/ simultaneously trying to herd cats in totally different directions oh and by the way some of the cats have rabies, you have a single point of control. No need to get everyone on the same page at all -- in fact, depending on the gunbearer, having literally no agreement could be a net benefit for sorting. (Just by way of example, I would be quite effective in a situation where every single player in the list was arguing with every single other player here.) No Abilene paradox scenarios come up here, because the gunbearer has no incentive to compromise to try and make the other players happy: if they miss their shot they're out, and if they hit then clearly they were right and it's hard to complain. They can use the rest of the town as essentially independent investigators to help them make their decisions, but they are not required to do what everyone else wants them to do.

I think we should lean into the advantage we have of a single guaranteed pro-town controller of the gamestate, even if it means the normal townies have less agency and control. In the process, we deny scum a large part (obviously not /all/, but I think /any/ advantage is important) of the only agency that they have in the setup while a gunbearer is alive: misdirecting the shot.

With regards to the LAMIST/scumminess of wanting to be shot or not, I feel like the specific vibe I'm getting from Wheme is less "LAMIST" and more "I am the bestest scumhunter ever!" Wanting to be the hero figure. Gloria Cleary did something similar in Death Curse, and the mistake definitely damaged town's chances at the end. People forget that there's a reason there aren't very many hero figures... Obviously there's some overlap in the general themes between "let me drive!" and "look how townie I am!", but Wheme's minimal responses and general attitude here do strongly give me the former impression. PEDIT: My opinion is not changed after the past two Wheme posts.

On the other hand, Norfolk does give me an offputting feeling, to be sure, but I can't place if it's AI or something else. Need more data.

I agree that lurkers are going to be a serious problem. I don't know if we can count on lurking being even a little bit scummy, either, because scum benefits from putting themselves in the front of the gamestate in this setup. (Yes, I'm taking into account that I'm potentially telling the scumteam how to be effective here.) It may be valuable to lean heavy on lurkers as a group effort to forcibly squeeze content out of them.

this isn't a great start either

[petapan]

tammy did you legitimately scumread the guy with 4 posts

No she didn't, don't freak out.

When we get you shot it will be based on the merits of your own posts, not Rockhopper's.

i'm not freaking out lol i wanted to interrogate the reasoning there if there was something to it, like i've said i've barely read and want to get a sense of what people are thinking

[petapan]

Spoiler: Quoted Content

The concern with voting in this setup is that the town has very little agency to begin with. Only one person has /any/ power, and we know they are town, so we should trust them to have town's back. Now, leashing shots to votes sounds great in theory. After all, it just puts us roughly at "ordinary mafia game", with a final adjudicator. In practice, however, it gives the scum team agency they shouldn't have, and takes away one major town-sided element the gunbearer gives us.

The exclusive advantage that the town has in a setup like this over an ordinary Mafia game is that it avoids the ironclad law of committees being absolute hot fucking garbage at actually performing tasks well. (This law is so ironclad that it's a major component of managerial level sabotage: you load important committees with more than IIRC 8 people, and ensure that at least one of them is dead weight, and nothing will ever get done, ever ever ever.)

Instead of /everyone/ simultaneously trying to herd cats in totally different directions oh and by the way some of the cats have rabies, you have a single point of control. No need to get everyone on the same page at all -- in fact, depending on the gunbearer, having literally no agreement could be a net benefit for sorting. (Just by way of example, I would be quite effective in a situation where every single player in the list was arguing with every single other player here.) No Abilene paradox scenarios come up here, because the gunbearer has no incentive to compromise to try and make the other players happy: if they miss their shot they're out, and if they hit then clearly they were right and it's hard to complain. They can use the rest of the town as essentially independent investigators to help them make their decisions, but they are not required to do what everyone else wants them to do.

I think we should lean into the advantage we have of a single guaranteed pro-town controller of the gamestate, even if it means the normal townies have less agency and control. In the process, we deny scum a large part (obviously not /all/, but I think /any/ advantage is important) of the only agency that they have in the setup while a gunbearer is alive: misdirecting the shot.

I don't think we should use a voting system.

I agree, which is why I think we should avoid overthinking and just let the gunbearer have final say and read the room based on what people naturally choose to do. I believe people will most likely use their vote almost as per the usual, as long as the host is keeping track of people's votes. However, if we dwell for too long on it, or have too many detailed posts like yours, Mushshagana, (no offense) then the mafia will have more of an idea of what to do, just as you said.

is this not an immedate walkback of that rvs nonsense when questioned on it, this whole post bad

[petapan]

That was a joke.

I wish people understood me

i was serious every time i accused you of replacing into a scum slot, how rude

(also correct every time)

[petapan]

anyone who's here, give me your top shot picks, any number of names, no context

[petapan]

Well, I missed a lot while getting food together.



For Duchess: detailed posts are going to come out of me on good days, and that's just how it is. I type walls. I speak walls, too. It's a thing, and it's only going to change on real bad days. I have a bunch of those coming, so you might consider yourself lucky.

As for giving scum information: don't be concerned about that from me. I play a very subtle town game, and I often do multiple things with a single post. If I'm giving scum information it's because I have decided it is for town's benefit in some way or another. There's a whole lot of ways that can be the case, if you think about it I'm sure you can come up with a few. Past games of mine will bear this statement out.



I don't really like anything I'm seeing of Wheme so far. So, Wheme, I have a question for you. What /are/ you bringing to the table here? So far we have bad reads but wants the gun, casting entirely baseless shade on one of the few players posting anything substantive (no offense intended to the players who have not posted anything substantive, game basically just started), and shitposting. What do you have that town benefits from? Don't dodge the question or meme about it, I want an honest self-assessment. What are you actually doing in this game to help town out?

eh, might have jumped the gun a bit, this is better, first few posts from mush were fillery but this is something, at least

[petapan]

Imperium are you scum?

But why do you ask?

Because I don't know if you are town or scum

But why do you ask?

Because I don't know if you are town or scum

They said they are town already why would they lie

Hm I wonder

Don't think I'll be shooting Dunn this game

If I don't get the gun I will be very happy with my performance this game

I will be keeping that close to my chest for now

cakez man wtf are you doing

[petapan]

I'm making a prediction here: 3. I'll clarify that after I get an answer to the following question from Wheme:

How does it "ping" you? And in what way?

You seem to be throwing shade but trying to stay on the fence which pings me.

what does this even mean lol

[petapan]

anyone who's here, give me your top shot picks, any number of names, no context

Wheme Dunn Duchess (Rockhopper) Norfolk

gonna be honest, struggle to see why a team like this gives notty the gun

[petapan]

Assuming no secret alts?

You Cakez dunn Norfolk. The former three have seen me in pretty dead on games. Norfolk lost to town me (we were competing day one wagons and he died)

oh hmm

[petapan]

It's not so much the commenting on each major event that bugs me there as it is the extremely rigid, strict thought processes that are described in excruciating detail. It took a while to settle on that being the issue, but it's pretty unmistakable: check how there's no simple conclusions reached, EVERYTHING has an extended, multipart thought process involved, with one exception. That exception (Dunn) is left open ended, coming to no conclusions at all.

It rings very false.

why's that necessarily scummy though, idgi

[petapan]

I just noticed something interesting while looking at STT's site post history

It appears that STT is a hydra account

lmao

[petapan]

Mushshagana. I don't have anything against your long-form posts. I was only concerned about having too much of a solidified plan laid out that could interfere with the normal flow of the day. On another note, regarding Whemestar, I believe you look quite trustworthy coming out of your argument, as I myself noticed a lot of what you pointed out about him.

UNVOTE: RLotus

VOTE: Whemestar

ew

[petapan]

anyone who's here, give me your top shot picks, any number of names, no context

Easily, the best shot right now is me. I'm probably the common denominator in most peoples scumreads, so it'll confirm my alignment and then any further discussion about me is over.

Personally, i'm shooting Duchess right now if I had the gun.

please don't advocate for yourself to be shot, i realize this is a weird setup but you need to stop doing this stuff

why duchess?

[petapan]

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

this feels like it's misconstruing a noob who just wants the clear to decide, maybe i'm stuck in the epicmafia mindset a bit but i don't think it's inherently scummy

[petapan]

You still insist I was trying to interfere with your questioning, and still I cannot possibly see how I /could/ interfere with it or why I would /want/ to. You make no explanation of how it disrupts, you just assert that it does.

You call me condescending and abrasive, but looking back, I see you are the one who stoops to appeal to ridicule for no visible reason.



The repeated and pointless attacks on my character are noted. Your assertion that I am specifically disrupting you without evidence or explanation is also noted. Your attribution of thought patterns to me even though I have said nothing to support them is noted.

Would you like to add anything else while you're at it?

this reads like someone who's trying to win a debate not scumhunt

[petapan]

okay taking a break, might not wildly quote everything that catches my eye, but have an idea for something i want to look at this game

[petapan]

Not loving the Peta entrance

not surprised by this in the least

[petapan]

not_mafia owns






however despite being dead null like usual i think he is >rand scum here, not gonna explain just yet

[petapan]

norfolk why are you okay with being shot here if your reads are generally terrible, you'd have to make a shot that is potentially game-ending

[petapan]

PETA solidified my townlean on rock

Shoot duchess

how did you have a townread on rockhopper? i'm honestly concerned by anyone claiming to have any kind of a read on what little he posted

[petapan]

VOTE: ScrewTheTells
VOTE: Norfolk boy
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: SirCakez

Probably two scum in there

Looking back on this, does scum make this post?

i don't see why that's a town post at all. it's just a bunch of votes

[petapan]

The problem relies on the fact whether you believe STT thinks it's worthwhile to push someone like MUSH because let me be honest, there's a reason (no offense MUSH) most people do not respond to her walls. Why not pick an easier target instead of engaging yourself with a possible conundrum. This is not the basis of liking STT, rather there's just a lot of headway given.

you should know better than to think scum are always going to pick an easy target

At least Lotus should have some good targets.

what makes you say this

[petapan]

Speaking of LAMIST, there's our OG:

Easily, the best shot right now is me. I'm probably the common denominator in most peoples scumreads, so it'll confirm my alignment and then any further discussion about me is over.

I almost thought that this guy was no longer that scummy compared to other people after the first several pages. After all I agree with Imperium's objective point that the Norfolk wagon in the first few pages was based on very circumstantial evidence. But like, every Norfolk post I see just keeps reminding me that this guy probably isn't town? Right? Both our heads think so and it seems like other players do too so we're not crazy here right? Why don't people wanna shoot this guy again?

the guy selfhammered as town in the game i played with him because he didn't feel he'd be able to get suspicion off his slot, play is entirely consistent with someone playing for the first time outside the newbie queue and is probably a bit overwhelmed, not really scummy

i'm still catching up so i don't have a full picture of the game but i get a sense a lot of people were gravitating toward pushing norfolk and my slot, those being the two least active players in the game, and i know this is at least 50% wrong and incredibly lazy, and i can't help but feel these are slots scum would gravitate toward pushing given the gamestate. i'm not saying inactive slots have to be town but in general if people are going to push there i'd expect a solid process of elimnation reasoning based on having a number of townreads elsewhere, and that's NOT the sense i am getting from the people who are active right now. the situation reminds me a bit of the ampharos situation in black flag, she was by far the least active player in an extremely hyperposting game who eventually flaked, my teammates suspected her but on content i didn't think her scummy and my read was that given the gamestate scum would want to try to push an inactive player for an elimination (and i was absolutely right on that count although i slightly misjudged who the scum pushing the slot were)


so when i'm catching up and seeing imperium posting about the number of scumreads on norfolk not feeling natural that's resonating pretty strongly with me, the whole thing reeks of convenience especially as he doesn't seem interested in fighting back, like, at all, and i think there needs to be a pretty hard re-evaluation here

[petapan]

I don't think lurker scum does something like placing 4 naked votes.

er, why not?

[petapan]

Ftr I was suspicious of Rock not for his inactivity but because his four posts were terrible.

I don't think lurker scum does something like placing 4 naked votes.

er, why not?

I just don't think lurker scum wants to bring attention to themselves they just want to lurk. Placing 4 naked votes is bringing attention to yourself.

anyone claiming any read at all off those posts is highly suspect

I will say I think Duchess drafting up this old argument between Imp and me and developing an "extremely confident" scumread after just having a mega fail on their Lotus read seems very unnatural

Should I slink away and give up on scumhunting after just one wrong read then? What is unnatural about it? What does a natural progression look like to you in this case? Did you want me to bumble around aimlessly for a bit before continuing to play the game?

You seem extremely confident for someone who just completely missed on another read you were very confident on
I'd expect you to take a step back and reevaluate because obviously you were off-track
Instead you just moved on to the next SR in your old pool.

why does someone being wrong on one read mean their other reads have to be wrong? this isn't good logic

[petapan]

You are missing what I am saying. I saw your explanation. I am not near satisfied. Read my words. You called him LAMIST. I called it an act. These are the same thing. This makes me scummy, and it makes you...?

These are not the same thing at all. I said that the things that he said are what I would consider LAMIST, but not that he had scummy intentions behind them or that he is being deceitful in some way. You said that he is specifically saying these things as if he is faking something. I seriously doubt that you can't see a difference after I already explained.

If that's so then I think that is an incredibly scummy early stance to take on a player with as much LHF potential as Wheme. I also think your incredulity at my disapproval towards your answers is completely overblown.

???

[petapan]

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

Also c'mon I know you're above insulting me like this as town
Not good AtE

I'm not a perfect person

THERE'S MANY THINGS I WISH I DIDN'T DO

[petapan]

Why does everyone townread Mush?

It's a high effort = town sort of read from me.

I do think she made some good points. There's a lot of stuff I admittedly haven't read because it started getting wordy and into analysis I really wasn't interested in

what good points has she made lol

[petapan]

For the first thing - why?
For the second - that's not what I said...

1. because those posts were effectively nothing, claiming to have a read off them feels more
2. your argument is that duchess coming back in after one of their reads was wrong and pushing confidently on a secondary read is scummy, because it's unnatural or w/e, and you mentione reevaluating, with the obvious implication that they shouldn't be continuing to scumread you, but that's just not logical at all

[petapan]

I think Rockhopper is flying way under the radar here.
They put up a lot better stuff in the Micro I played with them then they have here.
Norfolk pointed this out too.

what game was this, because the only completed micro of his i see is a scumgame where he posted plenty, although it looks like his posting style is pretty minimal as either alignment, and he's flaked from a game as town before after doing very little (i hate that i am doing meta on a player whose alignment i know, but i can't let this go)

[petapan]

I'm not really seeing a progression from Unwnd here, for example.

Where in any of my posts did it say that I thought he was scum, all I mentioned that is that the shot would be 'interesting'

bruh

[petapan]

There were people egging that shot on.

...Like who?

You and Imperium.

You because of what you wrote, Imperium because they suddenly brought up nacho's suspicion on rtlotus right when Netflix and Chill was saying they were thinking about shooting

dunn saying what i was thinking here

[petapan]

actually, scratch the stuff i said earlier about norfolk, just had a thought

[petapan]

Because now we know all of Lotus's interactions were genuine, this gives us meat to dig into their interactions with and see if the other side of them looks genuine as well. Stop being deliberately obtuse.

did this ever happen or is it just a thing you made noise about

[petapan]

I definitely see it MUSH, it was such an angled read on two people who just happen to be there at the time Netflix shot his gun off. Let me spin this however, what do you feel is more likely Dunn

1) Two potential scum "egging on" a shot from the gunbearer
2) Scum sitting back and letting town misfire into themselves while playing hero the moment the bullet is fired

i mean, in general in games, i think scum aren't usually ones to go on the offensive, but when town gets a bad idea they will jump in to encourage it, it felt notable that they went for the hero shot on a player that wasn't scumread by many except for, like, duchess, and suddenly folks who hadn't discussed him at all were like "eh yeah sure"

[petapan]

Lotus would be an interesting shot, the reason I wanted to kill Duchess was actually to resolve my thought on Lotus and the potential of bussing

Nacho didn't elaborate on why he didn't like lotus's interaction with duchess. I'm concerned there's theater about, but I haven't made myself reread their interaction today like I keep trying to get myself to do.

Norfolk's posts once he starts to post beyond the first four, which were all there were when I was trying to find out if his early posts were alignment indicative, don't have the inquisitiveness of the other posts in that game we've both posted from. I think Nacho called his posts last night perfunctory? and some of that feels similar to the game you have experience with him in. But take this with a grain of salt, this little meta dive was not extensive it was just to see if he had different posting styles. The most inquisitiveness he's shown here is when he tries to interact with not_mafia.

i mean, i'm not the only one who picked up on it, but it felt

notable

that rlotus was basically an afterthought then when he got mentioned it prompted this response

[petapan]

Can everyone give me their stack rank?

i've had literally a day in this game and my reads are still shifting dramatically, i have some people i

really

want to question before i want to commit to anything

[petapan]

i'm reading in real time but not taking notes or anything of the like since i'm disorganized. i can see there was mention of it previously but it was never really fleshed out

in general this game, i've liked a lot of what you've said and what you've been doing, like how you really seemed to want to interact with norfolk and actually get a read on him rather than just call for his head like half the players in the game, but if i had to raise a point of concern it seems like you've been difficult to pin down to a concrete stance for a lot of the game. that's not a crime necessarily, my reads tend to waver a lot which is why i hate committing myself to lists but in a setup like this, there's a lot of scum, i'd expect some strong scumreads because you can pretty much close your eyes and throw a dart and still hit scum.

so i want to ask, what's your opinion of norfolk after you interacted with him, or tried to? why's duchess a scumread for you? why's unwnd scum? why is MUSH your top townread?

(i'm still a few pages behind where i first subbed in in my readthrough so i may have missed some stuff, apologies if i'm making you repeat stuff, this is just the impression i'm geting)

[petapan]

@STT Not maf is always a shit poster he never evolves
You have to look at the little content he puts out and go from there
Also look at game state - if he's not being talked about much (like in this game) he is more likely scum. That is what happened in Doubles Mafia.

you've hit one of the points i was going to make about him

[petapan]

It was never fleshed out, you're correct, but i find it not notable but odd that you didn't recognize that it was part of a conversation about players that had started at 710. Yes, he at that point said he was thinking lotus, and I restated my previously stated points - my little pings that I wanted to reread and flesh out, which I would have done regardless of who he said. We were in a conversation, one in which he had just stated not too long before that he wasn't going to be shooting right away. (Just double checked this; he said he wanted to give us a chance to get our thoughts out there the night before.) Anyway, there was no indication that he was shooting right then until after that point when he said he was shooting and gave his reads list. I get Dunnstral in the moment thinking it looked that way, but I guess I don't really understand how you don't recognize it for the conversation that it was.

For what it's worth, I didn't even think he was going to be shooting right that moment when he said he was informed they were shooting. I thought that we were still going to talk more. (I realize this part here is pretty meaningless from an outside pov who truly has the above thought, but.)

meh, like i said i am shotgunning this thread pretty much as quickly as possible without writing down anything and i'm probably gonna miss some details but the timing of it was conspicuous, i don't doubt that no one really believed they were going to hero shoot right that instant, but that's not really as important to as it was the reaction to them entertaining the shot at that moment

[petapan]

so, on entry into the game, didn't like cakez, kind of got nervous because he seemed to be preemptively discrediting me in the way i'd expect scum to, reading along i felt like his tunnel on imperium was heading into irrational territory, the way i expect scum doing a shitpush to behave, but as i'm reading, i start to see him make posts i'm not sure he makes as scum, stuff that just feels very believable to me (599 and 857 stick out. i know neither of these are outside his capacity to fake as scum but i just don't think he

would

bother to make them and the way they are written looks genuine), and i start wondering if my initial assumption was wrong


and imperium, well, i liked what they were doing, posts made sense, in particuar the way they were trying to draw content out of norfolk and get him to talk rather than just calling for his head, the way they reacted to cakez tunneling them by assuming he was just misguided town, that's typically an approach town takes to being tunneled and not as common from scum

but, like, i had this paranoid flash and flipped everything and started tinfoiling a world where it's an imperium/norfolk team, the way they reacted to the early pressure on norflok, the thing where they kept trying to speak to him realtime, it suddenly reminded me of what i did with midwaybear in my recent scumgame, had an scumbuddy that was lacking in confidence but i didn't want to just throw him under the bus, i made a point of questioning him and interacting with him in real time to try to get him into the game and give him practice explaining himself as scum, while also making people think we weren't teamed. and that's kind of the vibe i started getting from them makin such a deliberate point of wanting a back and forth with him, like they wanted to dance but he had two left feet and couldn't answer him so they just sort of have to scumread him, and that sort orf meshes with them talking about how the people who were pushing him early might be scum, like they might be setting up to call them bussers when he flips

and it also occurred to me that, tactically, OMGUSing cakez is a terrible move in the world where imperium is scum and cakez is town because it gets them nowhere. like, if they're scum their goal here is to endgame and cakez is basically the only one likely to shoot them so they'd

have

to discourage a cakez shot, at least right now, and from that perspective, the whole read there starts looking very political and ingenuine, and they're one of maybe a couple people in this game i'd expect to be thinking that way about who they call to get shot

to be clear

i'm not advocating imperium get shot right now, i would shoot norfolk before them every time and only consider them after a norfolk red flip, but that's my little paranoid theory right now

my early assumption about norfolk was that he was just the lazy "consensus scum" pick but now i'm seeing a lot of people flot him as scum but not have him at the bottom of their readlists which is always a big warning sign, when a bunch of people are going "yeah he's scummy BUT how about so-and-so..." that tells you there are people who don't

really

want him shot which is a pretty strong sign just by gamestate that he's scum

[petapan]

I still don't like your response. I have a lot more faith in your ability to read the natural progression of a conversation and you acting like something is what is demonstrably is not is worrisome for your alignment.

Think you're displaying an agenda there you wouldn't if you were town.

w h a t

this is so far out there i don't know what to say, it's ridiculously unfair to expect me to meticulously remember every detail of a thread when i'm basically trying to speedrun the entire thing

[petapan]

Exhausted. I can't post much tonight, but I can do a little bit.

Because now we know all of Lotus's interactions were genuine, this gives us meat to dig into their interactions with and see if the other side of them looks genuine as well. Stop being deliberately obtuse.

did this ever happen or is it just a thing you made noise about

It's something I've been intending to do but you may have noticed that practically as soon as the "BAD SHOT WHAT A DOOFUS TOWN'S DOOMED" crap died down I had my life fall even more to pieces and have been barely able to manage more than like what, five? of my normal wallposts in the past two days. On top of that, I had to deal with STT being obvscum (until Bayesian-bot evidence proved that scummy actions are NAI for them) and people following up on shit I asked them for all the way back when I actually DID have time.

Give me a fucking break.

I still absolutely think it's a thing worth doing but I do not have the time or the energy to do it at this point in time. If someone else does it I will be exceedingly grateful, but I'm expecting no one will, and that they won't get what I will out of it, so I intend to get to it when I have a chance even if someone else DOES do it. Probably, if luck is with me, I will do it tomorrow, but I can't actually promise it in my current condition so don't get all evil-rubbing-hands-together-moo-hoo-ha-ha-ha about this if I miss it either.

For the record, if you didn't mean this in a snarky "oh so you are just providing filler huh?" way, and my response seems harsh, please be aware that I'm fucking exhausted and sick and hungry and am just typing this in bed until I pass out and I made a pretty clear request to delay asking me shit until I got back to the damn game, so I'm more than a little annoyed that I get on to say "yeah I got some time for something if anyone needs anything" and have to immediately respond to some snarky fucking shade-throwing frivolous bullshit from someone who should know at least a bit of the way I play, and on the /same goddamn page/ that I said "hey hold your questions thanks" no less. So I might be a tiny little bit disinclined to give you the benefit of the goddamn doubt here.

you didn't need to throw an entire rant at me, was asking because from where i'm sitting i see you talking a lot

about

yourself and talking

about

doing things, rather than actually

doing them

, and i'm waiting on results, something really tangible

the one thing i really liked from you was the STT push, it was great, there was such conviction to it, it felt strong and this game needed the aggression, but then the make one post explaining themselves and...you just kind of dropped it. it makes me question how sincere the initial belief was in the first place

[petapan]

my early assumption about norfolk was that he was just the lazy "consensus scum" pick but now i'm seeing a lot of people flot him as scum but not have him at the bottom of their readlists which is always a big warning sign, when a bunch of people are going "yeah he's scummy BUT how about so-and-so..." that tells you there are people who don't really want him shot which is a pretty strong sign just by gamestate that he's scum

I don't disagree with this in hindsight? The only thing that gives me very slight pause is people like Dunn coming in and saying 'norfolk has been called obv scum or even null we should just shoot him'. What's your read on Dunn right now or perhaps other topics of interest such as (STT, Duchess)?

dunn just seems like his usual self tbh

STT i still have questions for i'm not gonna pronounce a verdict just yet but them having me as toptown almost immediately is ???

didn't like how duchess started the game at all, whole opener felt fake and trying to look town, nothing after has felt town, the way they were pushing cakez kinda made me question it but starting to see cakez town has me going back to duchess just being scum, i don't have concrete reasoning there based on stuff they've said but just on gut, scum

[petapan]

I still don't like your response. I have a lot more faith in your ability to read the natural progression of a conversation and you acting like something is what is demonstrably is not is worrisome for your alignment.

Think you're displaying an agenda there you wouldn't if you were town.

w h a t

this is so far out there i don't know what to say, it's ridiculously unfair to expect me to meticulously remember every detail of a thread when i'm basically trying to speedrun the entire thing

bruh

I didn't. In fact we had a conversation, I laid out what actually happened, and you went meh I like my agenda theory better.

I even directed you to where the conversation started. If you cared, if you actually were looking for alignments and to see if you agreeing with Dunnstral made any kind of sense, you'd have checked.

You didn't.

you're overreacting

[petapan]

nah

[petapan]

Why do you want to give me the gun?

its more like i want to find out your allignment

weird post

[petapan]

i find it odd that like no one was talking about n_m until i replaced in and then i say he has a strong chance to be scum and there was this flurry of posts about him a few pages later

[petapan]

meh quick check on wheme's meta says this is just how he plays so i don't actually think he's scummy

[petapan]

Well I had the impression that Lotus was in a similar head-space as us, so I expect he'll shoot one of our top suspects or at least someone we wouldn't mind too much shooting either. In any case I had no fear that Lotus would fire the gun randomly at a weird target. That's why I was like...Imperium, are you trying too hard for the LAMIST theatre? I think it's obvious Lotus will not shoot immediately. How do you even mis-read Lotus's style that much?

which ones, exactly? because in my chart the only place i have where your scumreads overlap with his are on norfolk, n_m, and rockhopper

[petapan]

I think scum are trying to direct my shot to someone who will shoot the gf. I see three instances of this if my theory is correct, one of which is not well hidden whatsoever. And one instance has been doubled back on because I made it clear it won't work.

I'm being vague I know but I wonder if anyone will see what I see to maybe reaffirm me. My reads/shot isn't locked in whatsoever btw I am flip flopping a lot.

1. i think very few people in this game would be thinking that far in advance as scum. most people are just going to try to get town shot
2. scum don't want the godfather shot if they can help it, they want town to be shot above all else. if someone WERE trying to specifically direct your shot, i don't know why you'd assume it would be on someone who'd shoot godfather and not, yknow, town, which would cause us to lose the game.

[petapan]

Okay, petapan. Let me just say, I'm very, very sorry I haven't "done anything" this game. I'm sincerely, from the bottom of my heart apologetic that I'm lugging everything I own in this world from airbnb to motel room to Starbucks patio on a semi-regular basis, sometimes multiple times a day, while running errands from government center to doctor's office with a ton of busywaiting to try and get out of the mess I'm in. I apologize for barely having the time to eat on some days. I certainly apologize for the fact that I literally /didn't/ yesterday.

Please, allow me to say, I am extraordinarily, deeply sorry. Downright aggrieved on your behalf. I offer my deepest condolences.
/But you will just have to put up with it./

If that sucks for you, maybe imagine how much goddamn worse it sucks for me before you start saying I should be doing more.

Check my damn postcount and tell me I ain't doing anything again. Check how many slots I've put hard pressure on and tell me I'm not doing anything. Or, you know, give me a bit of goddamn slack for the circumstances. I'm making statements of intent for others to hold me accountable, some days I have more free time than others and I clearly haven't had shit recently, I keep the playerlist up to date on what to expect from me, it's only been like 3 or 4 damn days or something, back the fuck up.

You don't want a rant, don't talk shit about things that are beyond my control and semi-temporary.

i am

sorry

if i have personally offended you and i am

sorry

you're having to put up with a lot of crap but fucking miss me with this heavy handed emotional appeal garbage i'm so sick of people pulling this shit in games it's the most obnoxious garbage, like you're the only important person in the world and that gives you a license to just be as brutally unpleasant as possible to anyone who DARES accuse you

shit like this is everything i hate about the game right now




anyway


remind me who you've hard pressured, exactly? because in my view it adds up to a whole lot less than the amount of time you've spent talking about yourself and your intricate web of plans you're laying, one whose end results are...what, exactly?

[petapan]

If I were looking for that, I'd look for a /universal scumread/, one with absolutely no one arguing against it. Especially one that was debated for awhile, then brought to the table by multiple players only AFTER a failed attempt to get scumreads off of other players (possibly multiple people trying to salvage the same slot, though not necessarily). Hey, just had an idea, maybe looking into that is something petapan can do. You know, so he doesn't have to worry about being accused of /not doing anything/.

i'm already on it, actually

[petapan]

god i'm just going to stop, i'm pissed off and not in the right mental state to be posting and don't want to continue this. this isn't what i want out of games

[petapan]

i really meant no offense toward what you're dealing with mus. sorry

[petapan]

For petapan: Apology accepted. Sorry I flipped the fuck out.

I think what it is is that Mafia's my current escape from my bullshit, being reminded of all the things I can't do in it because of my bullshit hurts. If I dump core on you, it's a reaction to you accidentally poking a hole in a pressure vessel filled with a decade of bullshit when I've got my guard down, not something personal.

no it's fine, i went over the line because of frustration with other stuff in games and took it out on you and that's incredibly unfair. i got pissed off because lately people have been berating me for daring to suspect them and it gets very tiresome. but that's not on you, i have no issue with you as a person, i don't want to be a dick to you and i definitely was



anyway game stuff after this

[petapan]

i approve of a duchess shot

[petapan]

Um, I just double checked your posts and didn't find any outstanding questions for me. You don't like me reading you as toptown? You wanna tell me why you're scum? Please by all means.

i was asking about why you think rlotus was going to take a good shot because i'm not seeing a ton of overlap in your scumreads and that was very strange to me

and no i'm asking about why i'm suddenly a strong townread because i have no idea why i'd suddenly occupy that spot

[petapan]

So quite frankly wouldn’t you want us shot first?

no, i'm not goin to push for you to get shot first. it's a tinfoil. not a hard scumread. jesus christ

But you treat us as competent and incompetent at the same time. I know, because I’m a life long waffler, that waffling on scum just makes people suspect you’re their partner. I’ve been investigated for waffling on someone who flipped red. So if I had this agenda as you theorize why would I do it in the way that makes me look as shitty and suspicious as possible? This is not to say that I don’t accidentally waffle, people have caught me off guard as scum, but this would have been a premeditated plan, and you’re suggesting I did it in the worst way possible on purpose. Either I’m competent or incompetent.

yes, i get it, town are more likely to be indecisive, it's easier to take a hard stance as scum, but sometimes people don't want to push on stuff, sometimes you fear the pushback, and in a setup like this, hard stances matter, accountability matters, and i think an ideal scum strategy in this is doing the best you can to

look

officious and protown without stepping on anyone's toes and that was kind of the sense i got of what was going on, at least reading through day 1

You u mention our goal is to endgame, but we haven’t played a way that would actually get us there as scum. If we’re scum we gave the gun to Netflix knowing we’d very likely get shot if nothing else due to paranoia that we gave them the gun. (This is not saying we wouldn’t give them the gun, nachohas said we would have). But giving them the gun means that we were willing to go down first and would have had a plan that didn’t endanger our partners, which crap Norfolk would have been shot next probably due to my theory.

i don't think for a second you were ever actually in danger of getting shot by notscience, however paranoid he might be if you're scum you know he probably isn't shooting someone he likes day 1 and that's always how it's gonna go.

I was also a bit squicked by you asking me what concrete things I’ve done. You’ve played with me recently, you saw me waffling and changing reads then going back to them in smoke. And maybe I haven’t been super concrete, and I wouldn’t expect you to expect me to, nacho has. It just felt like you were trying to look like you were scumhunting me but superficially, and it’s what I don’t like about your mush push and interaction. You keep pushing on what she’s done, and it feels wrong and not like the way I saw you read people in front or smoke. (The only pause I have here is that you interacted with ffery by telling her in order to get lld off of her she has to find scum or get confirmed town, and that hit wrong when I read it so I’m just wondering if you’re use in a weird space and reading things and interacting unlike I’d expect you to.)

Just if you’re town can you show me that town peta magic. 5 of you are town and 5 of you are scum, and I have people I’m more ready to read town than you, and if you’re town then one of those is wrong.

i don't know what you're expecting of me honsetly, i'm not fucking magic, i'm just trying to play like always but this is an unusual setup, i can't vote pressure people so i have to ldo things a little different, maybe i'm being a fucking idiot but when i'm town i usually end up looking at every possible angle, which is what i'm doing here rather than lazily assuming it's an all lurker scumteam

[petapan]

Peta, thank you for revealing yourself for me. I'm fucking pumped for the opportunity to bury you tomorrow because we're at the point where us 1v1'ing is probably the best play. I haven't had a proper dance with someone of your skill level since I've returned and I've been fucking ITCHING for it.

Peta, thank you for revealing yourself for me. I'm fucking pumped for the opportunity to bury you tomorrow because we're at the point where us 1v1'ing is probably the best play. I haven't had a proper dance with someone of your skill level since I've returned and I've been fucking ITCHING for it.

Just don't roll over and die tomorrow. Bring the thunder.

I also appreciated the dirty dirty attack on Mush yesterday because it's a move that only 1% of scum players on site are willing to launch (and I think I'm one of them), but I'm surprised you broke cover with her this early - I probably would have waited, but I have a ton of respect for people who are willing to be manipulative to that extent because it is THOSE people that teach others the importance of emotions, and it is those people that make the game worth playing for me. Just don't disappoint me here - I want to see the best a player of your caliber can bring in a situation as grimy as this.

yes, i replaced into a scum slot and decided to get into a 1v1 with a widelytownread player, IN POPCORN MAFIA, because i'm a fucking idiot who loves throwing games

like what is the winning outcome for me here as scum, lmao? i get you shot? then you just shoot me in retaliation every single time and i gain

absolutely nothing

. no, really, please explain to me what my motivation and goal here as scum is supposed to be

but sure, go pro wrestling heel on me if you want to, knock yourself out

[petapan]

look there's a reason i went on this tangent to begin with. it's because i was composing this while i was catching up:



this is, to the best i could manage, a record of who people were calling scum on day 1. i threw this together becausein a game with no votes, data matters, accountability matters, and i want a RECORD of who was calling for who to be shot

that imperium line? not an accident. when i was filling it out i couldn't any sense for WHO they actually scumread, which is part of what disturbed me. seriously. go back and read day 1 and try to tell me who their scumreads were. instead we got posts like this:

That means I don’t have any of the people I could see picking me low enough on it.

Tammy are you still around? Do you think this is a dumb rabbit hole to dig into?

I don't know. It's something I've been trying to figure out myself. I thought that if you were given the gun purposefully, they might have been planning to kill us the first chance they got based on potential overlap.

I didn't give you the gun.

Cakez is I don't know. He's either town who decided I was scum early in RVS, I was just looking back at that, and he's confirm biasing everything I write and missing every point I make and moving goal posts because he's just that confirm biased. People do do that, and some posts do feel somewhat townish, but man I don't know.

Dunnstral doesn't feel like scum to me, but I don't know if I'm writing him off too easily. We were in the anon dance game together, and he replaced into a scum slot and the way he pushed things were just really wrong, so I've been looking for pushes that feel weird and I don't see it. Right now he feels more like he did in xeno and tenet. Not a strong read, but.

Norfolk I'm not sure about. I don't think that the opening posts deserved the push they got, I didn't like yesterday's posts that much and I thought he might have been appeasing Cakez by calling him misguided town, but today's posts felt a little better. I'm going to continue to fence sit here. I know that's really weird for me to do, but that's where I am.

So, yeah I don't know. Numbers wise, there should be scum in there right? But I don't know where to place it right now with any certainty.

of course, now they've settled on a team that includes me and the 4 least productive players in the game, which is pretty ludicrous, but i admit, it's

something

this is also why i asked people for who their shot choices would be when i replaced in - i was going to try to track how people's stances changed and if they were possibly shifting them to encourage rlotus to shoot someone he already suspected but they had previously not mentioned much - i wanted to see if anyone's reads were shifting in an agenda-y way

[petapan]

Peta are you making a D2 list of that? I like the idea. It feels like you stole it from somewhere but definitely not complaining

i did steal the idea initially when i used it in FGO, but that was slightly different circumstances. i had the idea to do it again here because there's no formal voting or anything of the like and it'd be better to keep a record of it

i did start one for day 2 and was planning on postign it but obviously things have shifted pretty dramatically

[petapan]

Imperium, I think your scumread of petapan relies a lot on BoP. I really liked your reasoning on why you are probably not with norfolk, but it is quite elborate and not the conclusion I would have come to on my own, let alone someone just beginning to soak up the game.

My read on him is BoP. Petapan is what we like to call a transcendent talent in the game of mafia, and the danger of this combination is that I've played with him enough to have a damn good idea of how he thinks and approaches and analyzes the game as town. BoP reads are the only reads I go this nuclear on simply because there are points in a game where scum HAVE to take certain positions in order to get certain mislynches win the game and that's exactly what he did here.

And I know that you don't know me and that we haven't played together, but trust that I see something here. I am a 12 year veteran of the game on this site and most of those were concurrent; mafia a huge person I am who I am today. The person that I'm hydraing with is my girlfriend who I have been dating for 6 years is someone that I met on this site - I was at one time the top poster out of all the crap ton of users that was here and as you can see I hydra fairly fucking frequently and I'm not afraid of making posts that take hours and hours to craft. I know trust is hard to give when you have no idea who I am but trust me when I say that mafia is in my blood and trust me that if you shoot peta or you shoot me so I can put the bullet in his head myself that I will deliver us a win here.

i have no idea where the fuck the BoP read is coming from on me, seeing as

no one has been flipped since i entered the game

, and to be honest, it kind of pisses me off. i've always considered myself an average town player at best, good in some areas but with huge flaws that i am completely unable to correct, and i was never really able to think in the analytical fashion forum mafia needs, so when i get held to some standard that is in my eyes unattainable it makes me mad. seriously, i wasn't renowned for my townplay. but now i'm under siege because i dared to question you, and i guess apparently i'm lockscum for that even though

there is literally no benefit to me going against you this day phase as scum

, and i would think you'd be aware of that!

[petapan]

good bait, you almost got me there

[petapan]

i don't think it's fair to compare me to a single towngame and say i'm playing different when i'm not really playing like i do as scum either and getting into this fight is an objectively terrible terrible play as scum lol

[petapan]

It's notable that you're trying to act like getting into an argument with me here is objectively terrible for you scum, which is debatable, but don't consider the same with regards to my cakez argument.

not really comparable givenhe was the one attacking you

If we're right about your team and gamestate, you have to scum read us here. It's positional as is your MUSH push.

no i literally take the path of least resistance here if i'm scum and stay the fuck out of your way, not a hard concept

which, honestly, i should be doing anyway but i feel this reflexive need to defend myself when i'm seeing the stuff you're throwing my way

[petapan]

idk why i criticized imperium's scumteam choices actually, i think most of those are good shots

[petapan]

Okay, I'm going to finalize my thoughts then.

Rushing here, but from your Day 1 interactions, I think Duchess comes out looking worse than I would have thought going in (as said before, I had a weak townread on them for the reply to my push on them). The interactions you have with them are very slow burning and very low momentum. There's no heat to them, really, it's just a calm back and forth. I tend to find that same side (TvT/SvS) 1v1s have a lot of heat to them (scum theater to make it convincing, town because both sides are paranoid as hell). On opposing sides (SvT) you get two kinds -- heated interactions when scum has momentum control and is on the offensive, and cooler interactions when town has momentum control and scum is on the defensive. Scum wants to be able to disengage if an interaction starts to get too risky, and they want to avoid being looked at too closely. Take a look at the posts starting when you swap your reads on Duchess, and the Duchess-defensive, Lotus-control dynamic is readily apparent. Duchess keeps trying to break free, but doesn't get a chance until you get shot. At this point, Duchess's play looks weirder: Duchess is /constantly/ on the defensive, and barely makes any pushes. Contrast Day 1, Duchess is about evenly balanced between pushes and defensive play.

My gut and my prior reads all say Duchess town, but the interactions say Duchess scum, and interaction-based reads with a known alignment are always far better for me. Sorry, Duchess.

As for other slots, you were too in-the-background with everyone else to make serious judgement calls on how they look when I know your alignment. You just don't have enough there. I didn't bother looking at Norfolk or Rock, since on Day 1 those slots were nonexistent. Interesting to note that while you threw at least one message aimed at everyone else who wasn't a lurker, you didn't give Dunn /anything/ that I saw on Day 1. I'm rushing, so it might be there and I just missed it, but I was looking and couldn't find it. I think that might have been a window into Dunn's alignment if I had that message to work with, but I don't. I only hope it doesn't come back to haunt us.

More thoughts soon.

this is pretty good actually

[petapan]

Oh, goodie! I'll have more time to do this.

I'm going down for the night. One last question.

Where the hell is Dunnstral today?

dunn doesn't post that often, it's not AI for him

[petapan]

Am I reading this wrong or are what is listed as my scumreads here not really rooted in reality?

When did I ever call N_M, rockhopper scum on day 1?

I forgot Dunn and NM

Cakez
STT
Mush
--
RLotus
Imperium
Wheme
Dunn
N_M
--
Norfolk
Rockhopper
Duchess

I'm at:

Mush
STT
--
RLotus
Duchess
Imperium
Cakez
Unwnd
N_M
Rockhopper
--
Wheme
Norfolk

i just took the bottom 5 of your list

[petapan]

like if you want me to edit it so it ~reflects reality~ because they were actually nullreads who just happened to be in your bottom 5 but you weren't that confident in them i can do it lol

[petapan]

yes, i replaced into a scum slot and decided to get into a 1v1 with a widelytownread player, IN POPCORN MAFIA, because i'm a fucking idiot who loves throwing games

How would you have known he was going to push back on you so hard?

i wouldn't necessarily, but when there's a strong player in the game, the thing to do as scum pretty much always is stay out of their way so you don't earn their wrath, you play around them, you don't attack them directly because if they push you back you lose, and also, because of the setup, it becomes a losing proposition to get in a fight like this as scum, even if i get imperium shot, they just turn and shoot me in the face. it's a pure lose/lose proposition so the idea that i'd play this way is nonsense, i'd be angling for shots i can realistically achieve, i don't chase impossible votes as scum but as town i'm way more willing to take unpopular stances because i have to consider every ange

i even outlined this in the death curse spectator thread a few months ago, in a similar sort of nightless setup, where town voted on someone to receive a scroll, than the recipient of that scroll passed it to another person, who passed it to a third

Subject: Death Curse Spectator/Dead PT NOW WITH 100% MORE NERO

starting to think this setup is brutal for scum, one townie gets a scumread on you you're in trouble, if you push a miscurse on someone and they omgus you you're toast

so following what i said months ago, do you really think i'm dumb enough to make the sort of mistake i said screws you in that thread? hell no, i had everything to lose and nothing to gain by getting into this fight

thinking over it more and it's super weird they are throwing some BoP shit at me, because i was fosing duchess and n_m way before they were, and was starting to fos norfolk as well, but i mention i'm tinfoiling them suddenly i'm scum and forcing my reads because i'm cornered, it makes no sense at all

[petapan]

to be clear i'm not advocating imperium get shot right now, i would shoot norfolk before them every time and only consider them after a norfolk red flip, but that's my little paranoid theory right now

In post 1212, Imperium wrote:
So quite frankly wouldn’t you want us shot first?

no, i'm not goin to push for you to get shot first. it's a tinfoil. not a hard scumread. jesus christ

I'm not saying I have the conviction about you that Imperium does, still awaiting what they have to say. Although, this does kind of look like you wanting to throw shade at them while staying out of the way of their shot, if they get the gun. It lines up with how you say you would be playing scum tbf.

what purpose does that serve lmao, i'd be trying to pocket them, i know what pushes are viable and what aren't

like, my thing was i'm way more confident on norfolk being scum than them, especially at the time i made that first post, in my mind there was still a possibility i was being overly paranoid which happens to me all the time, that's why i want that shot first

[petapan]

tldr

[petapan]

nah i'm jk but i really don't see continuing this being productive, go ahead and call me scum for it, it's not gonna convince anyone of anything and we're going to end up going in circles, i still don't want you shot today and you're not going to get shot today

[petapan]

i'd take it

[petapan]

i have never had an insightful read in my life

[petapan]

but for real it actually pisses me off when people hold me to some absurd standard, e.g. PYP X/Y I/M, where i had a meltdown when someone asked me why i hadn't caught scum and wound up in a pathetic tunnel as a result: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84707

frankly in most of those games i feel my play was somewhere between mediocre and dosghit

was gonna try to throw together a readlist but not really in the mood anymore

[petapan]

i don't scumread imperium

[petapan]

this is going to sound fucking terrible but as i was reading yesterday, i thought the way imperium is plying they're going to get vengekilled for sure if they're town, so i decided to gambit and bullshit a scumread on them because if scum buy that i'm hardtunneling them maybe they don't get venged, i figured they wouldn't get shot by rlotus ever but just to be safe i was like "shoot norfolk first every time", that's why i was so insistent on that order that they got on my case hardcore about, it was because i didn't actually want them shot. they came back at me so hard i actually panicked a little and talked myself into think they were scum for a bit but at some point i realized i was being a fucking idiot and tammy is obvtown, but i might as well keep it up for the sake of the gambit (and, honestly, this is terrible to admit but i felt like if i backed down there i might actually get shot). you can see how eventually i stopped attacking them at all and was basically only making arguments in self-defense and even trying to disengage entirely, because i was bluffing my read the whole time but didn't want to keep forcing arguments i didn't actually believe in. (i did get legit pissed at the BoP thing though, sorry, but that felt like it was entirely in relation to my read on them and nothing else). the whole idea was the make sure they don't get venged for the sake of an easy game and that's why i pushed them, i know it's stupid but that was my big brain plan

[petapan]

anyway if you want real scum look at how STT was trying to set up a dichotomy between imperium/cakez and then later shifted it to imperium/me, that shit is skeevy as fuck

[petapan]

this is going to sound fucking terrible but as i was reading yesterday, i thought the way imperium is plying they're going to get vengekilled for sure if they're town, so i decided to gambit and bullshit a scumread on them because if scum buy that i'm hardtunneling them maybe they don't get venged, i figured they wouldn't get shot by rlotus ever but just to be safe i was like "shoot norfolk first every time", that's why i was so insistent on that order that they got on my case hardcore about, it was because i didn't actually want them shot. they came back at me so hard i actually panicked a little and talked myself into think they were scum for a bit but at some point i realized i was being a fucking idiot and tammy is obvtown, but i might as well keep it up for the sake of the gambit (and, honestly, this is terrible to admit but i felt like if i backed down there i might actually get shot). you can see how eventually i stopped attacking them at all and was basically only making arguments in self-defense and even trying to disengage entirely, because i was bluffing my read the whole time but didn't want to keep forcing arguments i didn't actually believe in. (i did get legit pissed at the BoP thing though, sorry, but that felt like it was entirely in relation to my read on them and nothing else). the whole idea was the make sure they don't get venged for the sake of an easy game and that's why i pushed them, i know it's stupid but that was my big brain plan

And how did you know the godfather was about to die?

i didn't, obviously?

[petapan]

Is it foolish to say that petapan seems like /exactly/ the sort of person to do something pulsating-universe-brain like that? I mean.... Town /or/ scum, just strikes me like the sort of person to get lost down rabbit holes that way.

He wouldn't do that if scum - if the scumread on us was just a gambit, he invested too much time in the gambit and not enough time solving the game and sharing his solve with the game.

I mean if I'm categorizing who I think in my nulls is more or less inclined to flip scum it'd be

N_M -> STT -> You -> Peta

They're still null though because I only consider someone scum confidently, I am not as confident in this pairing therefore I want to take a risk. You could even say N_M/STT border on null-scum.

Why do you think STT/Duunstral are scum?

Do you really think peta as town faked his townread on us because he was afraid of us getting venge-killed?

just because you don't like the play doesn't make me scum. like, you think it's far-fetched, okay, but the thing is, it's the truth, so it's the only explanation i have, i can't just make up some other story about my read that sounds better. i can't just invent a convenient story that sounds good, i have to say what i was doing even though i know people are gonna roll their eyes at it

but it doesn't matter, if i have to be in the poe it's fine

[petapan]

anyway if you want real scum look at how STT was trying to set up a dichotomy between imperium/cakez and then later shifted it to imperium/me, that shit is skeevy as fuck

I thought I already explained it the first time, it's not a dichotomy, I thought Imperium was scummy for other reasons, what I meant was that if Norfolk actually flipped town then that's reason to consider I was wrong about Imperium since it's more likely that Cakez was genuinely pushing for a misfire. And then the thing with you was that I thought you were pretty town so Imperium's argument seemed to suddenly come from nowhere. Now if you were scum I'd say that looks great for Imperium, but if you're town then that would be the last nail on the coffin and I'd consider Imperium confirmed scum at that point. It's not like I thought for some reason one of you had to be scum. I already thought Imperium was scummy and this is just relevant to that judgement.

My scum read of Imperium hasn't changed much, but now they've also tied their fate with petapan's. If Petapan flips town I'm certain imperium is scum. If Imperium flips scum I think petapan is confirmed town. After failing on their wagon on Cakez and this slot, Imperium probably sees a last opportunity to win with misfire before town kills one of their scumbuddies and makes things a lot harder. The turn on to petapan is too hyped right now. They made all this noise about a smoking gun but it's funny that they delayed the big premiere. Maybe this is a psychological trick to get us more hyped than we should be. Priming us for the argument. I dunno, I can't wait to see the actual substance. Right now it's just "trust me, petapan is scum because meta". I trust meta but I don't trust Imperium, that's the problem.

lmao that quote is clearly trying to set up a dichotomy where one of us has to be scum, it's complete bullshit, don't try to deny it, you've been trying to chain shots on imperium and whoever is pushng them for most of the game

[petapan]

Peta is kind of poe scummy for other reasons though, and since a lot of other people see them as scum and I don't really have my own opinion I have them as scummy

how do you not have an opinion on me

[petapan]

petapan, I demand your Day 2 reads-chart! When you get around to it. (If you won't for awhile, I demand some acknowledgement that you have read my post. Also, my demands are not currently backed by mortar fire, so if you are boring and hate suspense you can substitute "request".)

yeah i'll get to it in a bit

[petapan]

some of this i was assembling yesteday, if you feel like i got anything wrong point me to the posts


trying to look over duchess's ISO and it looks like they knew they were screwed yesterday, they barely said anything about anyone, but I'll try to scrape it for clues

[petapan]

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

Really? I think saying that you don't want the gun is scummy as opposed to towny, on the surface.

Whemstar who is asking to be shot is LAMIST in my mind.

To me Norfolk looks like he is overcompensating for something he did that he knows looks scummy on the surface, so I agree with both of you if that makes any sense. I also agree that Whemestar's eager attitude looks like an act to me.

Guys I was memeing about shooting Norfolk chill...

What do you think of Norfolk now? Has your read on him changed since you said it?

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Who do you see making that suggestion? Who do you think is scum?

Norfolk Boy has made 4 posts and Whemestar has 46, so your last point about diverting attention definitely does not apply to me. If there is anything diverting attention away from Norfolk, it is Norfolk's own lurking.

I'm not digging ScrewTheTells jumping in and claiming it's suspicious that i'm not posting when it's Sunday night in the UK.

Anyone suggesting a committee or that votes should decide the shot is a scum candidate for me.

The only confirmed town is Netflix, so Netflix should decide.

Another bad Norfolk post
They're basically saying don't scumhunt, it's netflix's job.

This is a rather liberal interpretation, in my opinion.

Norfolk's posting just seemed excessively LAMIST to me

Really? I think saying that you don't want the gun is scummy as opposed to towny, on the surface.

Whemstar who is asking to be shot is LAMIST in my mind.

To me Norfolk looks like he is overcompensating for something he did that he knows looks scummy on the surface, so I agree with both of you if that makes any sense. I also agree that Whemestar's eager attitude looks like an act to me.

Where did he overcompensate and what was scummy on the surface?

Norfolk's first post reads to me almost the same as when scum feigns confusion about a Night Kill upon day start. He is overcompensating in his next post in that he ignores the implication that Whemestar is casting suspicion his way, and instead casually replies as if he is known town. He made his first post, 3 people immediately condemned it, he realized how scummy it was, and then tried to throw in a fake townslip to compensate.

MUSHSHAGANA

unwnd
Dunnstral
ScrewTheTells

Imperium

Not_Mafia
Rockhopper

Norfolk Boy1
SirCakez
WhemeStar
RLotus

these are the only places duchess talks about norfolk in their iso, even tries to defend him him to cakez before making some weird statement about his first posts

[petapan]

some of this i was assembling yesteday, if you feel like i got anything wrong point me to the posts


trying to look over duchess's ISO and it looks like they knew they were screwed yesterday, they barely said anything about anyone, but I'll try to scrape it for clues

Implying I have no reads at all is just... wrong and feels bad faith

i think i forgot to fill you in lmao

[petapan]

there u go dunn i hope you're happy

[petapan]

tbh i think STT's day 2 readlist speaks for itself thank u 4 saving me the trouble

[petapan]

i'll catch up later today

[petapan]

See, when you say "dichotomy" I think you're implying I said that "For reason X, one of these 2 must be scum". And that's not what I mean here.

If by dichotomy you mean "one player's flip is evidence towards another's alignment" then yes that's what I was saying. How is what I'm actually saying wrong though? You think I shouldn't be taking flip information into account??? I don't get it.

Also how is it chaining? I've already been saying Imperium is scum at that point. My preference was to shoot Imperium before you. If that happens then according to my logic there, I wouldn't shoot you. Where's the chained shot? I guess it could be seen as a chained shot if you got shot before Imperium. But I wasn't advocating for you to get shot, so if you get shot that's not me trying to chain mis-fires, that's a misfire caused by whoever actually pushed you i.e. Imperium. I don't see how this is evidence of me chaining shots

okay and if imperium is town then you want me to be shot and i'm town, this is not hard to grasp

[petapan]

havent seen nacho or tammy as scum in 7+ years and the only time i saw cakez as scum he got caught out day 1 so i have nothing to tell you there

[petapan]

MUSHSHAGANA

Not_Mafia
unwnd
WhemeStar

petapan/Rockhopper
Dunnstral

ScrewTheTells
Imperium
SirCakez

Quick skim of isos gets me about here

lmao

[petapan]

being right on 3 reads would actually mean you are wrong on 6 reads

[petapan]

it's just facts

[petapan]

i'm reading the last few pages but don't actually want to respond to them

[petapan]

i was suggesting he could be scum before anyone but lol ok

[petapan]

i just think if he was town scum would've given him the gun first

[petapan]

im glad we agree on a read

[petapan]

i dont do "solves", what a disgusting word

[petapan]

i think stt looks bad for trying to take advantage of me pushing you on day 2

[petapan]

im tom brady

[petapan]

mush can you explain why you scumread cakez so much

[petapan]

I think the post at the top of this page is a decent enough summary for most folks. That said: if I think about it, there's some other stuff that tends to ping me but which aren't things most people are sensitive to. May as well just rewrite it all out for ease of access.

Generally speaking: Saying one thing, then saying a contradictory statement under pressure -- feels less like stating beliefs than trying to evade attention. Making baseless assertions that seem like trying to force an interpretation (e.g. the whole Norfolk scumhunting thing). General gut feeling of the play being phony, i.e. fake, but not so much "simply acting" as it is "crafted for specific effect".

More specific to how I build out reads: Apparent lack of a coherent chain of causation -- I don't see how he gets from point A to point B, it feels like it's abrupt jumps instead of actual changes in thought process. Play is "concentric" -- instead of his play changing focus at any point, it takes a specific point (in this case, "shoot Norfolk") and centers all of his play on that singular point. All play that isn't directly centered on it is pushing back on people questioning it. Hence "concentric", his play reaches ever wider circles of the playerlist but the center point never changes, indeed hasn't changed since page 1.

Because of these things, his play feels agenda-driven: he has a specific goal (shoot Norfolk) and does not attempt to search around outside of that goal. When dealing with things that are not necessarily "shoot Norfolk", his statements are not necessarily logically compatible with one another, and there is no apparent shift in belief or understanding to explain the incompatibilities (since the conclusions he comes to do NOT appear to change alongside the statements).

what distinguishes between scum with an agenda and town with a strong scumread?

[petapan]

Aside from me Imperium kill points to Peta or STT I think?

i feel like anyone would have killed imperium because they were never going to be shot

although it's probably STT

Yo mush good job btw peta is next right

lol ok

[petapan]

Norfolk/HUB was already positioned by scum to get bussed or die if peta's list is right. This makes me believe HUB was pretty much trying to stir the spot and nothing else. His team knew he was at death and so was HUB, so it was just spreading hysteria and nothing else

Unfortunately, that makes him less reliable to ISO as well

agree that HUB was probably effectively in antispew from the moment he subbed in and whatever he says is going to be less reliable, i barely paid any attention to his shit

[petapan]

Guys I was memeing about shooting Norfolk chill...

I think finding out Norfolk's allignment would help quite a bit

BAD POST

In regards to the 3 players to save question,right now i'd only save Not Mafia, because I love him. There's no pro town evidence from anyone other than Netflix at the moment.

Does Norfolk really not have any reads in 20 pages

I am hard agreeing with imperium regarding Norfolk.
Dunn read list is bad

Hmm. You seem sensitive to these sort of dynamics, Wheme; would you say that the conversation was being pushed forward more by Imperium or by Cakez? What I mean is, if one of them dropped off the face of the earth at random during that, which one would have kept posting longer, in your opinion?

I don’t get why you think I’m sensitive to the dynamics. I think imperium was more invested in the conversation as they were questioned by more people and as a result had to defend themselves more. I don’t get why people think imperium was hard defending Norfolk when they weren’t. I myself was confused why people were scumreading Norfolk like crazy. It came after my “shoot Norfolk” post which was just a meme because they said they were glad they didn’t receive the gun.

5 of you are town and 5 of you are scum

Cakez Tammycho unwnd RLotus MUSH (VACANT)

--Null void--
Peta
STT
N_M
--Null void--

Duchess Dunnstral Whemestar Norfolk (VACANT)

What I'm wokring with right now form a pure PoE standpoint

This is such a lazy scum team and makes me think you are scum

Im happy with norfolk shot shoot him mush

remind me again why you're trying to take credit for the norfolk shot

because ahahahahahaha lmao

[petapan]

duchess was extremely bussable by virtue of being the godfather, i give basically no credit for pushing there

[petapan]

"there's no reason for scum to bus" but clearly given all available evidence scum did bus and you want some kind of cred for it

[petapan]

I’m not taking credit for it. I was fine with a Norfolk shot

I think it's just Wheme, NM, and one of Peta or Dunn

Do you really think i bus two of my teammates

[petapan]

although it's probably STT

What had you coming around to this?

I know Imperium is dead but they were so certain you were scum, I feel right now the gun is probably pointed at you too

What are you doing if you get it?

i was saying this during the whole last phase because of the way he treated me vs imperium

prob just shooting wheme and NM

[petapan]

same tbh

[petapan]

Also, making a note. Literally no one is trying to save Wheme but I note that STT and only STT is trying to specifically redirect to NM without saying Wheme is a bad shot. So I think STT is the third scum. Just have to figure out if the second one is peta or NM and I think it’s peta rn on this basis. Open to being swayed but tbh peta you’re the only one who’s gonna save yourself here

Oh I suppose it could also be Dunn but idk seems sort of unlikely in this gamestate rn?

He’d be my sub in for the peta/NM spot if they go green. Think STT always goes red rn

Then again Dunn’s dodged a lot of scrutiny. Then again also unwnd has and I’m pretty sure unwnd is green in this universe. Eh I’m happy with 2 caught scum really, the rest POEs to the finish no matter who holds the gun and how bad their reads are

eh i get why you think that but it's not me. can't really argue at this point thought that i'm super towny and should never be shot ever, i've said some dumb shit and if i have to be in the POE so be it. i think the POE as it is is good enough, sometimes it's a mistake to drive yourself crazy looking for someone deep; sometimes the game is just easy.

[petapan]

oh, but also, i'm pretty sure at this point mafia have realized any possible path to victory goes through me and they need to get me shot, which explains wheme's abrupt turnaround on me where previously he gave absolutely no indication he was scumreading me

[petapan]

oh, but also, i'm pretty sure at this point mafia have realized any possible path to victory goes through me and they need to get me shot, which explains wheme's abrupt turnaround on me where previously he gave absolutely no indication he was scumreading me

why would mafia ever need to go through you

also im pretty sure ive been vocal about folliowing imperiums hard meta read on you when imperium was very confident they were correct on you. imperium flipping green makes me want to sheep him even harder.

because mafia need to get town killed to win the game, quit acting dumb, lmao

1262 is the only time you've mentioned sheeping their meta read? lazy as hell tbh, if you actually believed in that read you'd have spoken to them about it

I literally can't find any reason for me being scum i am confused. My wagon literally has 0 pushback which should be a huge red warning.

yeah just like how no one was pushing back on norfolk or duchess right

[petapan]

lol ok

[petapan]

anyway see ya

[petapan]

oh fuck

[petapan]

please don't hipfire

[petapan]

like i'm sorry i thought your abrupt turn on me and the way you were arguing was scummy, you were like taking credit for duchess and norfolk that felt unearned, being wrong doesn't make me scum

[petapan]

You sound worried Peta

NO SHIOT IM WORRIED ITS LYLO AND WHEME HAS THE GUN

[petapan]

dude why the fuck would i not panic, me getting shot loses the game, if i was scum i wouldn't give a shit here

i'm half worried i'll hit preview and the game will be over

[petapan]

Like I said yesterday the Imperium kill really points to Peta so heavily because they were definitely misshootable

where was this yesterday

[petapan]

like if you were sure i was scum why not push me then

[petapan]

come on that's so bullshit lmao

[petapan]

Why couldn't peta v imp TvT?
Me vs Imp was

LIKE WHAT THE FUCK WAS THIS

[petapan]

YOU JUST WANTED WHEME WITH THE GUN AND NOT ME

[petapan]

welp

[petapan]

incoming salt

[petapan]

i was expecting to die right after the norfolk slot and was playing around that the entire time

[petapan]

personally i enjoyed driving you crazy even though pushing you in the first place was a pretty bad misplay on my part, from that point on i just wanted to keep you off balance and generate noise so that you didn't hone in on my partners

[petapan]

i actually thought in terms of agency it was fine, you get two opportunities to remove town players you'd otherwise never be able to kill which is the big roadblock in nightless